Well the crazyiness got to me again

[jrharvey]

Last night was going great and of course something completely out of my control ruined it yet in her head its all my fault.

Night was going great like always and she jumped in the shower. I was watching TV and reading some news articles on my phone. I know she HATES seeing me on my phone because she is insecure and thinks I'm going to talk to some girls but shame on me I'm trying to actually set some boundaries here especially since she is always on her phone and probably 10 times more than me. Of course she gets out of the shower and sees what I'm doing and goes crazy on me. She comes over and ask to see my phone and I say look all you want there is nothing there to be upset about. I was just reading some articles. I can see the panic in her face and hear her breathing heavy as she frantically reads all messages, emails going through calls and voicemails etc... .

I just lay back and watch TV because I know there is nothing she could find. Then to my shock she says "look at all these girls". I ask what girls and get up to see what she is doing. She is on my Facebook and says "look at all these girls you have in your friend request". "You want to be friends with all these girls?" "Look at them all, your disgusting".

I look and notice she is looking at the suggested friends. Its what Facebook shows you to say you may know these people. You cant control it or turn it off I don't think. I try explaining this to her but she is not hearing any of it and just looking through these girls pictures getting pissed off. She kept asking why do I have them on there and I tried and tried explaining that I cannot control what shows up there and I didn't request them as friends. Its like talking to a wall. Then I picked up her phone and showed her the guys on her suggested friends. I thought she would understand but NO. She said "Yeah, those are all the guys I want to have sex with."

I was completely fine until she said that. I got angry. I got very angry. Not even about what she said but at that time I realized she knows she said something so stupid and made a mistake but instead of saying sorry she has to retaliate with hurtful comments. I tell her, I need to go outside and cool down. She says, thats ok I am going to go out with some friends to cool down. I say... "What? Why are you doing all this? Do you even know why your upset"? She said... "You can go out so I can go out too". I remind her that going to the bar is breaking her own rule that she wanted to set in the first place. She said absolutely no bars no matter how mad. Then she says "Yeah im going to the bar". I seriously feel like I'm not even talking to a human being. There is nothing to validate and nothing to reason with. At that time I don't know any communication techniques that would help this.

I just got quiet. I gave up. I'm in complete shock at the events that happened and feel stupid for even trying to reason with her. My whole world doesn't make sense. When did truth stop becoming truth?

I lay down on the bed and she starts talking to me again. She said "I wanted to leave because I cant talk to you when you are like this". I start thinking WOW are you kidding me? Im being reasonable and your crazy making! I dont say that though. We calmly talk a little bit more and Im still very mad but I say... .I know you were very insecure and worried. It must be very hard to be worried about that all the time. It must be very hard to deal with that every day.

Then she hugs me and says "I wish you would just talk to me like this all the time". "Just talk to me with love".

You have no idea how bad I wanted to shake her and say that I wish she would talk to me with love! Its so hard to be nice to someone being so mean to you. Ughhh.

Its clear that she just wants someone to understand her feeling. But she makes such a damn mess in the process. She destroys things trying to be understood and its just not fair or reasonable to validate her or reward her with validation when she is acting like a witch! Maybe I dont get it yet. IDK.

[Meili]

Can you see that you did validate her and what her reaction was?

At the beginning of all that, you said that you didn't see anything to validate, and that she wasn't making any sense. I agree, from a cognitive position, she wasn't. She wasn't thinking with a cognitive mind though; she was thinking emotionally. Based solely on what you wrote, you reacted and responded to the words and actions, not what she was actually conveying to you.

I know how hard it is to look at life like that. I did irreparable damage to my r/s by always trying to figure out how to make the facts and circumstances as I saw them fit how she saw them. It wasn't until much later that I learned that it didn't matter how I saw things; she saw them differently.

As a result, not only did I not validate her, I invalidated her. I was telling her that she was wrong about things that she knew to be true. I had a sense of righteous indignation because I was positive that I was right. All the t's were crossed and i's dotted. But, I missed the most important fact of all; we all experience life through our own filters and that creates our reality.

My x has told me that she felt beaten down and shamed because I did that. She felt that she was never right about anything. She also felt that I was making her crazy because I was telling her that she was wrong about things that she knew to be true. Each time that I would do something like you did by trying to "prove" my point to her, it would make her more upset. I was challenging what she believed. The reactions that I received were not as painful as what you got, but they were along those same lines.

After a few months of this type of thing, again, like you, I would start to get angry. It didn't ever work in my advantage. Now, there is little more than a bunch of resentment, fear, and painful memories.

Have you looked at the LESSONS?

[jrharvey]

I did read the lessens. Its just so hard for me when its things like this. The hardest thing for me is her ability to make her own reality. The other hard part is when she realizes that she got upset about something that doesnt exist or never happened she fights back in a hurtful way. She can say "you did this" and I can show her proof that I didnt do that and instead of saying "I made a mistake or Im sorry" she gets even more angry and says or does hurtful things. Thats why I get angry. If I believe something to be true and somone shows me the real truth Im accepting of it. I may feel shame or sad I was wrong but I never rage back at someone for proving me wrong. Damn.

The thing that I have a problem with is validating bad behavior. There must be a negative side affect for her bad irrational behavior or else she will never learn. Much like a toddler throwing a tantrum because she wants ice cream before dinner. Being nice and sweet doesnt work. I feel like Im just making her think its ok to act this way.

[Meili]

But, that's just it, you're not validating the bad behavior, you're validating her feelings. The two are not the same thing.

In your example, taking the phone, making accusations, and saying hurtful things were all bad behavior. Her feelings though were that she was insecure. When you addressed the behavior, things escalated. When you addressed the feelings, she calmed down.

To mitigate the bad behavior, you don't validate it, you establish and enforce boundaries.

[jrharvey]

But, that's just it, you're not validating the bad behavior, you're validating her feelings. The two are not the same thing.

In your example, taking the phone, making accusations, and saying hurtful things were all bad behavior. Her feelings though were that she was insecure. When you addressed the behavior, things escalated. When you addressed the feelings, she calmed down.

To mitigate the bad behavior, you don't validate it, you establish and enforce boundaries.

Ok I understand. So how can we attack her behavior in a productive way?. After her feelings are validated she has still left a mess like a tornado through a city. Especially saying she is going to have sex with those guys. Even thinking about that makes me angry. She needs to stop saying crap like that if she wants me to be loving to her. Is there anything I can do?

[Meili]

Well, that depends on what you're willing to do.

If you want her to stop saying those things, set a boundary and stick to it. Just make sure that the consequence of her crossing the boundary is something that you're actually willing to do or else you risk making it worse.

Also, ideally, some of the tornadoes would be avoided by using the tools to prevent things from escalating that far.

[jrharvey]

If you want her to stop saying those things, set a boundary and stick to it. Just make sure that the consequence of her crossing the boundary is something that you're actually willing to do or else you risk making it worse.

Well I decided and discussed with her before that my boundary was when she said something hurtful like that I would leave. I would walk outside, go to another room or go to the gym or something like that. She retaliated by saying she was going to go to the bar with her friends. This was breaking her own rule that she made saying that no matter what we were not allowed to go to the bar when we are upset. She use to do that all the time but I did it once and she flipped out in jealousy and made the rule that we can never do it again. I agreed to her rule because I didnt like her going anyways.

[Meili]

So, in essence, you set a boundary. She crossed it. You started to enforce it. She manipulated you to get you to not enforce it? Or did I misunderstand that?

[jrharvey]

So, in essence, you set a boundary. She crossed it. You started to enforce it. She manipulated you to get you to not enforce it? Or did I misunderstand that?

Yep

[Meili]

I think that I see the problem there.

If we don't stick with our boundaries, they are meaningless and just leave us hurt, angry and frustrated.

But, we're not dead yet, so we have more chances.

[BestVersionOfMe]

To be honest, I am seeing a massive success out of this interaction.  Your playbook is like so many which is to feel that validating = agreement.  You likely have a strong sense of justice internally and when she goes to that place, and you know that you are innocent, it p*sses you off and I don't blame you.  The key here is that the validation worked and she let you know that.  Are you ready to set and enforce boundaries at this moment?  Perhaps you learn one skill before another and just work on validation and see if things calm down? 

[Skip]

I did read the lessens.

I think two things will help:

1. Look at her like a beautiful complicated women - not a space alien trying to get you to live in an alternative reality and that you are the holder of truth. She has intense emotions. It doesn't mean that every time  you clash, she is wrong.

2. Do this lesson. You are asking questions that are answered in the write up and text - it will 30-45 minutes to work through. It will really help.https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

The thing that I have a problem with is validating bad behavior. There must be a negative side affect for her bad irrational behavior or else she will never learn.

Read the lesson! It explains this very clearly.

Whenever the person we are with (BPD or not) feels invalidated, they react negatively. We are often very invalidating and don't even realize it.

When your head is feeling "she is crazy and wrong" and these relationship skills feel like training a 5 year old - your partner will sense it and feel you are condescending.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I did read the lessens.

I think two things will help:

1. Look at her like a beautiful complicated women - not a space alien trying to get you to live in an alternative reality and that you are the holder of truth. She has intense emotions. It doesn't mean that every time  you clash, she is wrong.

2. Do this lesson. You are asking questions that are answered in the write up and text - it will 30-45 minutes to work through. It will really help.https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

The thing that I have a problem with is validating bad behavior. There must be a negative side affect for her bad irrational behavior or else she will never learn.

Read the lesson! It explains this very clearly.

Whenever the person we are with (BPD or not) feels invalidated, they react negatively. We are often very invalidating and don't even realize it.

When your head is feeling "she is crazy and wrong" and these relationship skills feel like training a 5 year old - your partner will sense it and feel you are condescending.

In many ways it is like being in a romantic relationship of someone who is a full grown adult but has the emotional maturity of a 5 year old.  That is hard to wrap ones brain around.  The hard part of that is that you feel like the rules of engagement aren't fair.  It feels like they get to play by different rules whereby they use alternate realities and blatant untruths.  It literally can make you crazy in that moment if you are not constantly reminding yourself consciously of what is really going on.  I know for me, I got very good at not reacting verbally and thought I had mastered the skill but didn't realize that the facial expressions I made were pure judgment, condescension, and invalidation.  I'd do a gut check on the body language as it is 93% of communication. 

[ArleighBurke]

Also be aware about language:

- saying you'll go outside to cool off can be seen as abandonment. Make sure you state you'll be back "in 10 mins", or something solid.

- when she says she'll go to the bar (breaking her own rule) - it's not up to you to enforce her own rules. She's most certainly trying to manipulate you, but you could respond with "If that's what you need to do... " or "I know you can take care of yourself", or even "{nothing}"! Does it really need a response?

Validation is HARD. Not biting back is HARD. Ignoring her attempts to drag you into an arguement is HARD. But with practice, it gets better... .

[BestVersionOfMe]

 Totally hard, but doable!  My wife was like a tea kettle upstairs this morning spewing anger and steam, but within a half hour she came back down to earth and it was like nothing ever happen.  While it was happening I felt anxiety and took it personally, but eventually just let it happen and did my own thing.  She came down at one point and I simply said, "that sucks" and she went back up and it was over.  

[Skip]

The concept of extinction bursts is helpful - read here - your partner will blow-up and return to baseline. What they are doing during the blowup is an exaggerated response that they will mediate on their own.

Don't get caught u in it and do not enable it or fuel it.

I long ago learned to let her have her extreme reaction and just not engage it - wait till she reached baseline and then go with that.

If someone over-reacts and reaches baseline, and you then try to take them back to there emotional over-reaction, they will either distance themselves from it or defend it -  easier than saying "I went nuts but didn't mean it".

[jrharvey]

The concept of extinction bursts is helpful - read here - your partner will blow-up and return to baseline. What they are doing during the blowup is an exaggerated response that they will mediate on their own.

Don't get caught u in it and do not enable it or fuel it.

I long ago learned to let her have her extreme reaction and just not engage it - wait till she reached baseline and then go with that.

If someone over-reacts and reaches baseline, and you then try to take them back to there emotional over-reaction, they will either distance themselves from it or defend it -  easier than saying "I went nuts but didn't mean it".

Actually what I have noticed is she will change what really happened. A lot of time when she goes nuts over something small she will really downplay her role. The truth is she could be asking me 20 questions in a hostile tone and when I keep calmly answering the questions or I say we need to stop before it turns into a fight she will raise her voice and get in my face which causes my defensive reaction to match her tone. If I talk about it the next day she will say that she was calm and ONLY asking a simple question. Makes it sound like 1 questions but in reality she asked the same question over and over and over and dismissing my answers. Then she will say she asked 1 question and I started yelling at her. Then she will say the whole thing is my fault and I have an anger issue.

That is so hard to deal with when she lives in a different reality. She can never learn from the past or her mistakes because she doesnt even believe they happened.

[Skip]

That is so hard to deal with when she lives in a different reality. She can never learn from the past or her mistakes because she doesnt even believe they happened.

We know. Everyone has seen this type of thing.

You keep speaking of an alternate reality - it is not an alternate reality - its the reality of who you are as a couple.

On the improving board, we are looking for ways to grow, cope, create a more constructive environment. Of course you feel this frustration. The question is how do you receive it and process it without letting it be "crazyiness got to me again"

I let extinction bursts be what they are and, frankly, only partially listen to be sure I will understand what the real issue is and be present enough not to be passive aggressive. Everyone has extinction bursts - people with BPD just have it more.

I can be compassionate when the person reaches baseline and we are talking. I don't have to make a huge issue about the bad behavior - I just say it factually when things are cool so that it is known that I didn't miss it/approve of it.

This works with all people, by the way.

[Grey Kitty]

The truth is she could be asking me 20 questions in a hostile tone and when I keep calmly answering the questions or I say we need to stop before it turns into a fight she will raise her voice and get in my face which causes my defensive reaction to match her tone. If I talk about it the next day she will say that she was calm and ONLY asking a simple question. Makes it sound like 1 questions but in reality she asked the same question over and over and over and dismissing my answers. Then she will say she asked 1 question and I started yelling at her. Then she will say the whole thing is my fault and I have an anger issue.

Yeah, this sounds pretty typical. Let me suggest two lessons for you from it:

1. The next day, she will remember the fight totally differently than it happened. If the two of you get into a fight over how last night's fight went, it is invalidating for both of you, as you are both telling the other that your reality and feelings from last night are wrong.

Just don't do it. Accept that she will have these twisted memories about the fight. And that you will only harm your relationship by trying to convince her that your memory was correct.

2. Next time she starts asking 20 questions and sounding hostile, mentally pause, and step to the side. You have three options at that time:

A: Be interrogated, and give answers that invalidate her by not addressing her fears an denying whatever she's inventing. [Hope you know better!]

B: End the conversation and go away, instead of provoking it to fight level.

C: Ask yourself what she is really upset about and validate her feelings.

Please note--option C is probably the best one, if you can do it. Watch your own mental state. If you aren't able to set your own emotions aside and care about hers, it doesn't work. Sometimes B is the only one available to you that will work.

[jrharvey]

Grey Kitty,
Thank you. Great recomendations.

B: End the conversation and go away, instead of provoking it to fight level.

I try to do this sometimes so I can think clearly but she gets the abandonment fear and reacts in a way to emotionally hurt me. She may get dressed and ready to go to some party or threaten to spend the night at an unknown friends house to punish me. Sometimes this kicks in my own fear of her going out and getting drunk and doing something stupid. It causes an emotional reaction in me which is exactly what she wants. She knows that my ex went out to the bars a lot and would get smashed and I didnt like it. I feel like she does this on purpose to get what she wants. It always brings me back to the discussion and the fight she seems to want to have. I swear even though she says she never wants to fight I have a hard time believing it. Seems like she does everything in her power to start a fight and then play the victim. If you ask her she will say... ."she was just going out and nothing wrong with that while I started this huge fight".

[Oncebitten]

They all say that they don't want to fight... .which is a lie.  they enjoy the drama, the pain, lets them feel something... .hell mine tells me she doesn't want to fight but then gets mad at me because I don't fight with her about stuff... .she once told me that I was spineless because I refused to get into some crazy argument where anything I said was going to make things worse.

[Grey Kitty]

I swear even though she says she never wants to fight I have a hard time believing it. Seems like she does everything in her power to start a fight and then play the victim. If you ask her she will say... ."she was just going out and nothing wrong with that while I started this huge fight".

That's just one more mind game she plays. It gets you to doubting your own sanity if you believe it... .or to provoking a unwinnable argument if you try to convince her.

I call it doubling down on the invalidation. First she does something horrible/abusive/invalidating. Then she tells you that you are nuts for saying she did it, further invalidating you. And if you call her on that, she just does it again. You can't win at that game.

It usually involves some serious Projection on her part. My wife used to do that sort of thing too. I occasionally just said in a fairly mild tone "f*** you" or "f*** you too" to her as a shorthand way of stating that her behavior/statement was rude, unacceptable, and I wasn't going to try to explain to her why this was so, or fight about it, but I knew what game she was playing, and I was tired of it. (Note: I don't recommend this for most people!)

The important part is to hold tight to YOUR reality, your memory of what happened, and realize that most of the time it isn't important to stop her from having a different one, delusional or not!

I try to do this sometimes so I can think clearly but she gets the abandonment fear and reacts in a way to emotionally hurt me. She may get dressed and ready to go to some party or threaten to spend the night at an unknown friends house to punish me. Sometimes this kicks in my own fear of her going out and getting drunk and doing something stupid.

How real/likely are those threats?

Has she actually gone out and gotten drunk and done something stupid in the past?

Has she gone out and slept with another guy?

(I don't know her... .but I do know of pwBPD who make idle threats and ones who follow through on the threats, and I don't know which sort she is, with this threat.)

It causes an emotional reaction in me which is exactly what she wants.

If you teach her that she can make these threats, and you will cave and give in to her demands, she will use it. She has been. You have been. It has been working for her. Teaching her otherwise is going to be tough.

In the end you may have to call her bluff. And she may do something that will end the r/s for you.

Before it gets to that level, let me offer you a suggestion to moderate her fear of abandonment, by changing how you leave. It helps at least a little.

When you go away, give it a clear time limit when you will return, and HONOR IT. Something like "I'm going for a walk. I'll be back in 20 minutes." Then return within 20 minutes. Unless you get eaten by a bear or something like that.

Don't say "later" or "soon" or anything vague like that. You will end up in a fight upon returning about what "soon" means.

You might or might not want to state where you are going. On one hand it isn't her business. On the other hand, if she has real fears that you will go out and chase other women, and you are going to someplace where picking up women is difficult and unlikely, it might reassure her somewhat.

Important note: You said you would return at a fixed time. You didn't say you would come back and subject yourself to the verbal abuse you are trying to escape. If she launches right back into you, leave again. This time for longer. (2 hours instead of 20 minutes, or coming back after work tomorrow, instead of 2 hours)

[lbjnltx]

The Deciding or Conflicted board is where we can work through our frustrations with our partners.  We can vent here and get validation from other members who understand our anger, confusion, and frustration.  This board is a safe place to work towards accepting that our loved ones are disordered, accepting that it will take sacrifices on our part to make our relationships work, and decide to commit to our relationship or decide to leave our relationship.

Working through the information in the right side bar can help move us along in our decision making.  For an overview of the objectives, approach and common stages we go through please see Who Should Post on this Board?

When we are committed to our decision regarding our relationship we move to Improving or we move to Detaching.  Extended stays in limbo can be damaging to both the relationship and ourselves/our partners. 

[jrharvey]

How real/likely are those threats?

Has she actually gone out and gotten drunk and done something stupid in the past?

Has she gone out and slept with another guy?

Im not really sure. She has lied a lot in the past. She has also on 3 different occasions talked to other guys when mad at me. Not just friends but guys she either previously dated or was interested in. Now this is a huge problem for me because of the RULES that she put down strictly forbidding any contact with girls unless they are close friends and even then not talking excessively. She tried to convince me that one of those guys was a friend she was texting but I found out otherwise. She also tried to hide/delete messages to another guy she was sending when she was mad at me. I called her out on it and she admits its all wrong but just goes back to blaming me for wrong things I have done in the past. She did once threaten to go sleep at a "friends" house because she was so upset. She kept texting someone so I grabbed her phone to see and she was actually planning out going to this guys house that she use to date right before we got serious. After I saw that and got really upset she said she wouldn't do those things if I would do the right thing. Meaning keeping her happy or whatever that means. Ironic when she flips out on me because my coworker locks herself out of the office and ask if I'm still there so I can let her in. Somehow I'm a horrible person for that but she has excuses .

After that experience I do panic when she tries to go out. I don't now if she is going to some guys house to sleep or not. I panic. I try to stop her. She does the same to me if I actually leave.

She says she will never do that again but I really question how true that is especially when she is really mad at me.

[Grey Kitty]

Here's a tough question... .

How willing are you to stay in a r/s with her knowing that:

A: She will readily threaten to go sleep with somebody when she's upset, as a way to control you.

B: She might do it.

[jrharvey]

I think I hit my breaking point today. She said she wanted to break up so Im going to let her go. Im so tired. I really am. I started a thread here. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=296127.0