Objects to fill a need?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I read this a lot and have said it myself, but it's painful. Were we really just objects used to fulfil their needs? Did we matter to them at all? This feels incredibly painful and although reflecting back it’s what I see I don’t want to believe it. Did he ever love me and will he be thinking of me? Did yours love you?

[Larmoyant]

I read this a lot and have said it myself, but it's painful. Were we really just objects used to fulfil their needs? Did we matter to them at all? This feels incredibly painful and although reflecting back it’s what I see I don’t want to believe it. Did he ever love me and will he be thinking of me? Did yours love you?

[woundedPhoenix]

well... .

I think my BPDex had a healthy side when i met her, but as far as her gradually worsening BPD was concerned, i slowly became an object yes. Something that needed to be increasingly controlled to make sure her needs were met. The more control she pushed for, the less empathy she seemed to have towards me... .

[once removed]

i dont think its an especially accurate statement, "objects used to fulfill their needs".

we were the solution to all of their problems. the answer to their pain. we were seen as the person that would complete them. in that sense, yes, we mattered to them a great deal.

truth is, thats not a mature, adult way of viewing another person. no one can complete or fulfill another person. it is a childlike view, and a fantasy, but a very intense and well intentioned one.

"objects used to fulfill their need" implies, to me, a conscious, malicious effort, in a way that doesnt really line up with the disorder clinically, or in my own experience.

my ex and i loved each other the best we knew how. it wasnt adult love and it wasnt sustainable, and i suppose you could say we both treated the other like objects, and used each other in ways we were never aware of, but neither of us had anything but the best of intentions. i suspect that applies for most if not all of us.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey L-

Shrinks like to talk about 'objects', since there's a 'me' and there's a 'you', and everything external to ourselves is an 'object' in a psychological sense, and we are who we are in relation to objects, and although that may be true, kinda cold right?

A more warm-n-fuzzy, and no less accurate, way to look at it is we were attachments to borderlines.  A borderline, someone without a fully formed self of their own, looks to attach to someone to 'complete' them, not in a Hallmark card 'you complete me' way, but in an unhealthy fusing of psyches way, to create a whole self, subconsciously though, that's not a conscious thought.

And in the beginning, with a new attachment, it works, we actually do complete a borderline and to allow them to feel complete, whole and perfect, men become the knight in shining armor, not sure what the female equivalent is.  Problem is nobody's perfect and we fall short of the perfect fantasy in a borderlines head, plus, we're autonomous adults, we don't need to feel attached to someone to feel like we exist, sure the honeymoon period is great and all, but we're still two separate people with this thing between us called a relationship.  Not so for a borderline, there is nothing between, how could there be, we're one self.  So if a borderline's partner is a separate person, then they might leave; abandonment fear!  And if a borderline's partner is a separate person and the borderline doesn't feel that way about themselves, oh crap, I'm defective, the shame!  And there's nothing anyone could ever do to have a borderline interpret that differently.  The disorder wins.  Again.

So yes L, our exes loved us very much, in fact we were absolutely perfect.  Until we weren't.  :)oes that feel better than the 'object' thingy?

[FallBack!Monster]

i don't think its an especially accurate statement, "objects used to fulfill their needs".

we were the solution to all of their problems. the answer to their pain. we were seen as the person that would complete them. in that sense, yes, we mattered to them a great deal.

truth is, thats not a mature, adult way of viewing another person. no one can complete or fulfill another person. it is a childlike view, and a fantasy, but a very intense and well intentioned one.

"objects used to fulfill their need" implies, to me, a conscious, malicious effort, in a way that doesnt really line up with the disorder clinically, or in my own experience.

my ex and i loved each other the best we knew how. it wasn't adult love and it wasn't sustainable, and i suppose you could say we both treated the other like objects, and used each other in ways we were never aware of, but neither of us had anything but the best of intentions. i suspect that applies for most if not all of us.

Wellllll, since you mentioned it. Its funny b/c earlier while at work I was thinking about the topic you hit... .I think it turned into that w/o me even knowing it. Using each other for whatever necessity (though she got more out of me).

Anyway... .When I saw that she wasn't going to be good for anything else, something flipped inside my head (although I still had some feelings) I started looking at things from a different perspective.  Like--> let me just get this! and not focusing on anything else.  I believe that's when I started my recovery.  I have to say, it was unconscious but conscious.

I didn't plan to do it, but I believe that my thoughts at the time were conscious. Not sure though, but very possible. ... .I'm leaning more towards conscious behavior but w/o malicious intent.  yeah!

[FallBack!Monster]

Hey L-

Shrinks like to talk about 'objects', since there's a 'me' and there's a 'you', and everything external to ourselves is an 'object' in a psychological sense, and we are who we are in relation to objects, and although that may be true, kinda cold right?

A more warm-n-fuzzy, and no less accurate, way to look at it is we were attachments to borderlines.  A borderline, someone without a fully formed self of their own, looks to attach to someone to 'complete' them, not in a Hallmark card 'you complete me' way, but in an unhealthy fusing of psyches way, to create a whole self, subconsciously though, that's not a conscious thought.

And in the beginning, with a new attachment, it works, we actually do complete a borderline and to allow them to feel complete, whole and perfect, men become the knight in shining armor, not sure what the female equivalent is.  Problem is nobody's perfect and we fall short of the perfect fantasy in a borderlines head, plus, we're autonomous adults, we don't need to feel attached to someone to feel like we exist, sure the honeymoon period is great and all, but we're still two separate people with this thing between us called a relationship.  Not so for a borderline, there is nothing between, how could there be, we're one self.  So if a borderline's partner is a separate person, then they might leave; abandonment fear!  And if a borderline's partner is a separate person and the borderline doesn't feel that way about themselves, oh crap, I'm defective, the shame!  And there's nothing anyone could ever do to have a borderline interpret that differently.  The disorder wins.  Again.

So yes L, our exes loved us very much, in fact we were absolutely perfect.  Until we weren't.  :)oes that feel better than the 'object' thingy?

fromheeltoheal, you're smart.  that was so clear to me.  Well said. I can't even comment after reading your reply.  I want to but right night I'm overwhelmed. 

Thanks... .Nice!

[Larmoyant]

fromheeltoheal, I'm beginning to understand the lack of self idea, and fear of abandonment and can relate it to much of my relationship, particularly in the last year, only there were times when his behaviour seemed downright calculated, selfish and cruel. E.g. I once discovered him active on a dating site. He denied it making up all sorts of ridiculous excuses. I was very upset. He then suggested I could do with a break and to go visit friends in another state. Presumably so he could meet whoever he’d found on line, but still keep me as a back-up. This is just one memory I have. I have others and they're coming thick and fast and I feel used. It makes me feel like a throwaway object and I’m sure if it had worked with her that’s exactly what I would have been.

[fromheeltoheal]

only there were times when his behaviour seemed downright calculated, selfish and cruel. E.g. I once discovered him active on a dating site. He denied it making up all sorts of ridiculous excuses. I was very upset. He then suggested I could do with a break and to go visit friends in another state.

And of course making it all about you needing the break is gaslighting.  Borderlines can seem calculating and cruel, and when we put it in the frame of their being terrified of abandonment, and in their minds you've already left emotionally or are about to, the worst thing that could happen, for reasons that may or may not have anything to do with reality, then trust is gone, they're in pain, might as well share the pain, and look for other attachments while he's at it, since a borderline can feel like they literally don't exist without an attachment.

It makes me feel like a throwaway object and I’m sure if it had worked with her that’s exactly what I would have been.

Try failed attachment, it sits far better in our heads and hearts, and that failure most likely had nothing to do with you and everything to do with the disorder; you lose, he loses, the only winner is the disorder, always.  And remember, the only reason he went looking is because the attachment felt insecure, and no one could have made him feel secure about it for long, it's the nature of the disorder, unstable and constantly fear-invoking.

[StayStrongNow]

onceremoved, excellent post, it exactly described my r/s and I didn't realize it was like that until you shared your experience and well articulated conclusions.
Thank you

[Larmoyant]

Heeltoheal, this explains a lot, thank you and I’m going to adopt ‘failed attachment’ as opposed to ‘object’ makes me feel better. Is their fear of abandonment so strong that it overrides any sense of empathy for their partner. It seems to me that he didn’t spare a thought to my feelings at all, or at least most of the time. Didn’t consider how much his behaviour, e.g. cheating, would hurt me, yet knowing if I cheated that it would hurt him? Does that make sense? Also, my ex used to verbally attack me if he thought I was even looking at another man let alone talking to someone. Is this another reaction to the fear of abandonment? It’s all so maladaptive.

[fromheeltoheal]

Is their fear of abandonment so strong that it overrides any sense of empathy for their partner.

To get into the clinical side a little, before we're born and slightly thereafter we don't distinguish between ourselves and our mother, we're one person as far as we're concerned, not a stretch really since we are or just were inside her.  At some point in our development it becomes clear that there's a 'me' and a 'her', two distinct entities (don't want to say 'objects' ), and once in a while mom leaves the room or whatever.  And then what?  Oh crap, is she coming back?  We have no idea, so the abandonment depression sets in, as it's called, something we all experience, and most of us make it through just fine, a necessary step in becoming an autonomous human and having a 'self' of our own.  A borderline never does that, could be for a variety of reasons, but since they never successfully traverse the abandonment depression they spend their lives banging up against it, and never getting to the point of having a 'self' of their own, and seeking out attachments to make them whole, and fearing that attachment abandoning them.  And then everything downstream of that in their development gets arrested; order becomes disorder.

It seems to me that he didn’t spare a thought to my feelings at all, or at least most of the time. Didn’t consider how much his behaviour, e.g. cheating, would hurt me, yet knowing if I cheated that it would hurt him?

Part of the problem with focusing on abandonment all the time, and fearing it, is that the resulting behaviors screw up relationships, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.  Also, emotional maturity gets arrested once the disorder manifests, and add the constant emotional pain a borderline is in, and there's not much room for your feelings.  Plus, at that point in the relationship, he's fearing abandonment by you to the extreme, so you're the problem, time to look for solutions, other attachments, again not necessarily having anything to do with reality.  And also, and my ex was notorious for this, one way to deal with strong emotions you can't soothe in the moment is with impulsive behaviors, and random sex with strangers is impulsive, it provides narcissistic supply, and a moment of physical bliss that lets a borderline not feel the negative emotions for a while.  Consequences?  We'll deal with those later, in all the myriad dysfunctional ways; blame the partner for it, why not?  Nothin' to lose, and copping to it would evoke massive shame, ain't goin' there... .

Does that make sense? Also, my ex used to verbally attack me if he thought I was even looking at another man let alone talking to someone. Is this another reaction to the fear of abandonment?

Yep, plus a little projection maybe; my ex would cheat and then chastise me for checking someone out, I got to be the bad guy by her dumping her shame for cheating on me, so she didn't have to feel it.  I suppose that was a service I provided... .

It’s all so maladaptive.

Yep, mental illnesses are pretty maladaptive, kinda by definition yes?

So how are you going to use all this newfound wisdom?

[Ahoy]

Heeltoheal, this explains a lot, thank you and I’m going to adopt ‘failed attachment’ as opposed to ‘object’ makes me feel better. Is their fear of abandonment so strong that it overrides any sense of empathy for their partner. It seems to me that he didn’t spare a thought to my feelings at all, or at least most of the time. Didn’t consider how much his behaviour, e.g. cheating, would hurt me, yet knowing if I cheated that it would hurt him? Does that make sense? Also, my ex used to verbally attack me if he thought I was even looking at another man let alone talking to someone. Is this another reaction to the fear of abandonment? It’s all so maladaptive.

I think when you are seen as no longer 'perfect' and devaluation kicks in, borderlines feel overwhelmed with pain as their attachment isn't what they imagined it to be.

They are in such a state simply trying to soothe their emotions in this stage, seeking ANY sort of band-aid fix that their simply isn't room in their thinking/thought processes for empathy towards another.

It also doesn't help during devaluation that we (Nons) start being split black, we are often to 'blame' for this failed attachment, often simply because we had adult needs that were impossible for our partners to meet.

I think this explains how my wife had a reasonable amount of empathy and thoughtfulness in the beginning, but became so cold and distant as things progressed. My needs by the end were not a consideration. It was all about her and her soothing her turmoil.

[Larmoyant]

So how are you going to use all this newfound wisdom?

Build on it 

This really has helped me a great deal, so thank you. If I can understand I feel better, less pain somehow. Depersonalising it I suppose.

Now I just need to figure out some of his other behaviours and where ‘engulfment’ comes in. I'm not quite sure yet, but maybe this explains why he would seem to switch moods and be angry and seem like he 'hates' me. E.g. We'd be working happily together putting up kitchen cupboards when he'd suddenly switch, shout at me, go on the computer and tell me he's booking a holiday and I can't go with him. It was confusing and upset me a lot. Probably triggering my own, recently discovered, abandonment fears.

Also, I'd like to understand why he left me stranded at a railway station on a cold, rainy evening and then came up with several different excuses as to why, and why he threw me out of his car at an unfamiliar location, stuff like this?

Also, he seemed to have moments where he realised what he was doing or had done. He once said that he can see himself raging at me, and knows that it’s wrong. If they can recognise it once why not again and why can’t they step back, walk away and stop?

[DreamerGirl]

Larmoyant, mine has done the same.  He left me stranded, in another State, without any money and I also had no idea of the address where we were staying (which was his daughter's place). It was a very traumatic time for me and I am still unsure what triggered that in his mind.  It's hard to understand, being a non because we would never do that.  Mine told me the next day, after such a traumatic event, that I deserved it because in his mind I had done something to upset him, which I hadn't, but he believed I had.

I haven't been actually thrown out of the car, so to speak, mostly because I own the car, but he has sure deserted and left me at venues, many times.  He has got up and walked off in a silent rage, not to return.  I will be there, wondering where he is, waiting, until the penny drops.  I can honestly say it has always shocked me how he can do this, mixed with the pain of rejection and hurt and confusion, this has been too much, I can't do it anymore.  He has left me too many times, for no obvious or rational reason that I can find. 

Mine has also had moments of rationality afterwards, not often though, it's usually my fault, but if he knows he's gone too far, then he will say the right words making out he has some insight but the bottom line is he always blames me.  If I had of been more patient, more loving, less defensive or argumentative etc... .then this would not have happened.   He is never to blame.

I am on day SIX of NC and it's not easy, but I am determined to move on without him.  he is toxic in my life.  Even though I think I love him, he is not healthy for me.  I hope I can stay strong.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey L-

This really has helped me a great deal, so thank you. If I can understand I feel better, less pain somehow. Depersonalising it I suppose.

Yes, and some of us, the way we're wired, are 'understanding-driven', I'm that way too, and learning a little of the clinical side of the disorder can take the confusion away, which is huge for me, didn't make it OK or the behaviors anywhere near acceptable, but at least I understood why my ex does what she does.

Now I just need to figure out some of his other behaviours and where ‘engulfment’ comes in. I'm not quite sure yet, but maybe this explains why he would seem to switch moods and be angry and seem like he 'hates' me. E.g. We'd be working happily together putting up kitchen cupboards when he'd suddenly switch, shout at me, go on the computer and tell me he's booking a holiday and I can't go with him.

The fear of engulfment comes from the same place as fear of abandonment, the lack of a fully formed self.  Like we've said, a borderline does not have a 'self' of their own because they never successfully detached from their primary caregiver and weathered the abandonment depression on their way to becoming an autonomous adult.  So when someone without a complete 'self' attaches to someone else to become whole, or whole again really, like it was with their mother, where do you draw the line between the two?  Or is there a line, if in a borderline's head it's one self?  So a borderline can feel like they will literally 'lose themselves', lose their 'self', in the other person, and disappear entirely into them, become 'engulfed'.  Crappy feeling that, and therefore fear.  So the fear of abandonment and the fear of engulfment are opposing fears, get too close, fear engulfment, get too far away, fear abandonment, which is the root of the push/pull behavior.  Plus, the line between those opposing fears is always moving, with a borderline scampering back and forth trying to find the serenity between the fears, short lived and fleeting, which is where the "pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships" that is a trait of the disorder comes from, and him running off to schedule a getaway was push behavior, he got too close when you were bonding over cupboards.

It was confusing and upset me a lot. Probably triggering my own, recently discovered, abandonment fears.

Every human on the planet has "abandonment fears"; we're social animals, born to connect, and we don't do as well on our own.  For most of us it's not a continual focus and an exaggerated fear though, like it is for borderlines.

Also, I'd like to understand why he left me stranded at a railway station on a cold, rainy evening and then came up with several different excuses as to why, and why he threw me out of his car at an unfamiliar location, stuff like this?

Pfft.  Because he's rude?  No really, borderlines feel emotions intensely, and don't have the ability to soothe them, like the volume knob is stuck on 10, especially towards the end of the relationship, so he was being reactive, trying to deal with his own feelings.  Of course he could have told you what was really going on with him and you could have helped, like people in intimate relationships do, but BPD is a shame-based disorder, and if he leveled with you, you would agree with him that he is just 'not good enough', and you would leave, abandonment fear again.

Also, he seemed to have moments where he realised what he was doing or had done. He once said that he can see himself raging at me, and knows that it’s wrong. If they can recognise it once why not again and why can’t they step back, walk away and stop?

Because you can't walk away from who you are.  And someone without a fully formed self is unstable, "markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self" being another trait of the disorder.  So who he is to himself changes, and he had a moment of self awareness when he noticed his raging and how it affected you, on the way to another perception of himself.

Sad really, as we learn more about the disorder it becomes more clear how difficult it would be to live that way, although we've all been dealing with how we're wired our entire lives, and we're all doing the best we can with what we have and where we are.  It boils down to people we're compatible with and people we're not, the hardest part being letting go of who we thought someone was and accepting who they are, very different in the case of someone with a personality disorder.  

Take care of you!

[Fr4nz]

Also, I'd like to understand why he left me stranded at a railway station on a cold, rainy evening and then came up with several different excuses as to why, and why he threw me out of his car at an unfamiliar location, stuff like this?

Also, he seemed to have moments where he realised what he was doing or had done. He once said that he can see himself raging at me, and knows that it’s wrong. If they can recognise it once why not again and why can’t they step back, walk away and stop?

Well, he gave you the answer... .when he goes into rage mode, he's uncapable of shutting down his emotions - due to BPD... .hence, the horrible "treatment" he gave you; I'm pretty sure he really regretted that, afterwards.

[Larmoyant]

Heeltoheal, I truly have got such a lot out of your posts, thank you! It feels like the penny is just about to drop.

I’m sorry if I’m becoming a pest, but it sounds like they are living a continual, painful struggle to develop a fully formed self? Do they somehow perceive, unconsciously, themselves as still fused with the primary caregiver? Why don’t they successfully detach from the primary caregiver? Why don’t they weather the abandonment depression? Is this something outside of themselves, e.g. abuse, or psychological or physiological or all of these?

Why is it a ‘shame based’ disorder? Is it that they don’t see problems as outside of themselves, but as a part of themselves? Is this why they blame others for everything? I would never have left him if he’d owned some of it, in fact this would have been a good reason to stay. Both owning our part, empathising with the other and sorting it out.

Also, I found my ex to be extremely controlling. Is this a part of BPD? Is the controlling behaviour related to fear and the abandonment/engulfment struggle? I was often baffled as sometimes he was a complete control freak dictating my every move, freaking out with severe jealous reactions, but at other times he’d drop me off as if I was a piece of garbage, didn’t care about me at all. I sometimes felt as if I was being pulled in two. No consistency, no stability making it difficult to decide to stay in the relationship or not. I felt compartmentalised also. He took me out of the box, played with me for a while, then put me back in when he’d had enough. Only when I was in the box, was out of sight, he seemed to become anxious and start a text battle or something.

Dreamergirl, I completely relate to the trauma of it and the struggle to understand wth was going on. Mine also blamed me after the fact. I think the trouble really started when I began to believe him, began to internalise his ‘black’ view of me. It’s an uphill battle trying to repair all of that damage. Therapy is helping me a lot. Have you seen someone? I’d highly recommend it. That and here, reading and communicating with people who ‘know’ what this is like is invaluable. I know it’s hard Dreamergirl, but we can do this, step by step. What other choice do we have? I don’t know about you, but if I’d stayed much longer their wouldn’t have been much left of me. Hang in there. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi L-

Heeltoheal, I truly have got such a lot out of your posts, thank you! It feels like the penny is just about to drop.

You're welcome.  I'm telling you what I learned in a book called The Search For The Real Self: Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age by Masterson; it's a great read, clinical but accessible to us layfolks, and he describes how 'normal' development progresses, fascinating in it's own right, but the meat is what happens when something interrupts normal development and order becomes disorder.  It's not the only resource, there are many, but that one spoke to me as an understanding-driven person, and sounds like you are too.

I’m sorry if I’m becoming a pest, but it sounds like they are living a continual, painful struggle to develop a fully formed self? Do they somehow perceive, unconsciously, themselves as still fused with the primary caregiver? Why don’t they successfully detach from the primary caregiver? Why don’t they weather the abandonment depression? Is this something outside of themselves, e.g. abuse, or psychological or physiological or all of these?

The time to weather the abandonment depression and detach from their primary caregiver was long ago, within the first few years of life, and a borderline was either not allowed to detach or couldn't make it through the abandonment depression, too scary and painful, so attaching to someone to complete themselves became the goal and stayed that way; it's too late to form that fully formed self.  In a way an attachment can be thought of as a recreation of that earliest bond with mom, when there was no distinction between 'me' and 'her', they were one person, although all of that is subconscious because the initial development happened so early that cognitive thought was not yet possible.

Why is it a ‘shame based’ disorder? Is it that they don’t see problems as outside of themselves, but as a part of themselves? Is this why they blame others for everything? I would never have left him if he’d owned some of it, in fact this would have been a good reason to stay. Both owning our part, empathising with the other and sorting it out.

There's a difference between shame and guilt; we feel guilt when we did something wrong, we feel shame when we are wrong.  Folks who were abused, neglected, overly criticized, or abandoned as children can develop feelings of inferiority and low self-esteem; that is not specific to borderlines by any stretch, and we don't know the specific circumstances that caused the disorder, but shame is at the core of it, a feeling of being 'less than' in the world.  And blaming other people for things is a way to off those feelings of shame, one of many tools.  It's also why borderlines lie a lot; if he was completely open and honest with you, you would see how inferior he thinks he is, and agree with him, and you would leave, back to the fear of abandonment.  

Also, I found my ex to be extremely controlling. Is this a part of BPD? Is the controlling behaviour related to fear and the abandonment/engulfment struggle? I was often baffled as sometimes he was a complete control freak dictating my every move, freaking out with severe jealous reactions, but at other times he’d drop me off as if I was a piece of garbage, didn’t care about me at all. I sometimes felt as if I was being pulled in two. No consistency, no stability making it difficult to decide to stay in the relationship or not. I felt compartmentalised also. He took me out of the box, played with me for a while, then put me back in when he’d had enough. Only when I was in the box, was out of sight, he seemed to become anxious and start a text battle or something.

We talked about the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment, and the line between them that is always moving.  One way to find contentment, as fleeting as it is, is to control the emotional distance in the relationship.  Trash someone's self esteem so they don't have the courage to leave, avoid abandonment, while also keeping someone at a distance emotionally to avoid engulfment.  And then, get too far away, pull you black, get too close, push you away, the push/pull behavior motivated by trying to balance those two fears, with the line always moving.  And add the chaos and unpredictability of it all and it's hell to be in.  Seems you noticed.

So if you're like me and this all starts to make sense, we feel better knowing that, but also maybe a little shocked at what we were in the middle of, and how it could never have worked, not the way we were expecting a relationship to work, and there's a major disconnect between what we thought we had and what it really was.  How the hell did I get so far down that rabbit hole?  Well, there's the gift, digging there, with the benefit of hindsight, while cutting ourselves some slack because we got blindsided by mental illness we had no way of seeing coming.  Might as well put the pain to use yes?  And as we heal and become wiser, more in touch with ourselves, there's a bright future ahead, and we may just look back at the relationship and consider it a gift one day, because of the growth it inspired.  Take care of you!