Is abandonment trauma an inevitable part of modern life?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Many of us wonder if we have BPD after the breakup.  This thread is intended to be a more specific exploration of that issue.

It seems like the way our society currently functions, with the additions of technology and increased personal freedom, abandonment has become routine.  It makes me wonder if abandonment trauma has a sort of "viral" quality to it, where it spreads and becomes like an epidemic.  It is now normal and routine for most people to have experienced significant abandonment by the time they are in their 20s or 30s, where as this was far less common 40 or 50 years ago.  I know that I have abandonment traumas that I would not have experienced had I followed the traditional route prescribed by my culture, religion, etc.

Consider the following things that have changed or evolved in recent times:

Divorce:  Divorce is extremely common.  Young children are frequently separated from one of their parents from a very young age.  Sometimes it's partial custody, sometimes it's a parent leaving and losing custody altogether.  People say that kids are "resilient" and that it doesn't really affect them, but is this true?  Kids are egocentric and often blame themselves for the divorce or if one parent leaves.  That abandonment gets carried on into later life.  One guy I dated had THREE different families from his parents' different marriages, only one of which was still legally related to him.  He also changed schools every time his mom married a new man.

Social Media:  I work with 14-16 year old kids and see the effects of social media all the time.  Things like unfriending and blocking sever relationships with a kind of malice and permanence that didn't exist in the past.  I was unfriended a few years back by a guy that I had romantic feelings toward that he did not share.  He was apparently so disgusted by this that he decided to get rid of me rather than stay friends.  That abandonment is still with me.

Living away from home:  Most people now don't stay in the town where they grew up.  They move to a city they like and make new friends there.  That means that most of us haven't known our friends or significant others since childhood, which would have been common in another decade or century.  There are many unknowns about the new people we meet in new places, and it's easier to conceal things like personality disorders until they blow up in the partner's face.  Every time this happens, it's more abandonment trauma.

Divorce (part 2):  Marriage doesn't really provide much of a sense of security anymore.  People leave and move on at will, as if it were just an exaggerated dating relationship.  Yes, the result is more personal freedom and the ability to get out of a bad relationship, but the other side of the coin is that marriage doesn't provide a psychological sense of security like it used to.  We have to worry about keeping our partners interested and excited about us much more than we did in the past, so the fear of abandonment carries on much further in life.

Online dating:  Online dating is pretty much the abandonment special.  You send your Five Quick Questions, start a great conversation, and then . . . he disappears.  You don't know why.  Was it something you said?  Did he find that profile pic that shows how fat you are?  Did he meet someone great in real life?  None of the above?  You will never know.  You just got dropped cold.

Dating behaviors like ghosting, etc.:  Want to get rid of someone?  Disappear altogether.  If they call you back, threaten them with a PPO.  Don't offer closure.  Don't be polite.  Don't have a grown up discussion about what didn't work.  Just run.

Jobs:  People used to commit long-term to a job, and the company would also commit to their education and welfare.  Now people move on or get fired at will.  My dad stayed with the same company for 40 years, until he retired.  I have been working for 15 years and have already lost one job and had my other job threatened.  Both of those experiences were very traumatic.

In science they use the term "full body burden" to describe someone's lifetime radiation exposure.  It seems like a lot of people arrive into adulthood with a pretty heavy "full body burden" of abandonment.  I bring this up because I've been thinking about my own abandonment trauma and how to overcome it to be a healthier person.  Since the BPD individual seems to leave the relationship most frequently, most of us here are now carrying some abandonment trauma and will probably have some "BPD fleas" in our future relationships.  But now we all need to go out and start over in a world where abandonment is extremely common.  This is my main concern for myself as I look for ways to continue my life.  How many times can you be abandoned before you develop PTSD symptoms, and begin to resemble a person with a PD?

I'm a history geek and I often find myself yearning for a simpler time, when I would have grown up in a little village and known I was going to marry the farmer down the street from the time I was 16, and never had to go through all these horrible cycles of finding Mr. Wrong over and over again, and dealing with vicious blows to my self-esteem.  Loyalty and commitment are becoming increasingly rare qualities.  I'm coming to the conclusion that I really don't like this game we're playing with each other, and I find myself bargaining for a better way to do it. 

I'm coming to terms with the loss of my many friends today, and realizing that it's another abandonment.  I understand that I'm probably better off without them in my life, but how do I start over and take the risks all over again?  If I find a great new partner, will I just blow it all when he does something that resembles my exBPD and I panic? 

How about you?  What abandonments have shaped your view of relationships, and have you found any ways to overcome the fear?

[steelwork]

I was abandoned in a very literal way many times as a kid. For instance, my mother, whom I'd always lived with, moved to another country without me when I was 10. Many many situational instances of being left by a parent as a little kid in a strange situation and expected to find my way back to safety.Too many to list. Also, I was left with babysitters when I was 10-11 months old (i.e. in the most important part of my attachment period). So when my ex told me he had abandonment issues (as an explanation for abandoning me), I kind of went, What? But I understand that abandonment takes many forms.

[FannyB]

Great post GEM - I share many of the thoughts and attitudes you do. I was fortunate to grow up in a stable home and am doing the best to provide this for my son - post divorce.

I personally think we are going to hell in a handcart and that today's society is a breeding ground for PD's as traditional values erode and shallow narcissism becomes the new mantra - aided and abetted by the instant gratification provided via social media. 

 My son was attacked the other week by an attention seeking girl who wanted to humiliate a boy to boost her ego. No doubt Facebook will be awash with the lie that he attacked little miss innocent - but that's just the kind of world we live in unfortunately. Truth means nothing anymore and lying is now a legitimate tool for getting what you want.


Fanny

[GreenEyedMonster]

Great post GEM - I share many of the thoughts and attitudes you do. I was fortunate to grow up in a stable home and am doing the best to provide this for my son - post divorce.

I personally think we are going to hell in a handcart and that today's society is a breeding ground for PD's as traditional values erode and shallow narcissism becomes the new mantra - aided and abetted by the instant gratification provided via social media. 

 My son was attacked the other week by an attention seeking girl who wanted to humiliate a boy to boost her ego. No doubt Facebook will be awash with the lie that he attacked little miss innocent - but that's just the kind of world we live in unfortunately. Truth means nothing anymore and lying is now a legitimate tool for getting what you want.


Fanny

Fanny, I couldn't get back to view this post until just now and I am glad that someone agrees -- I was afraid that I'd get reamed out by someone for being cynical, which is the typical response I get to these sentiments.  I agree that our society is a breeding ground for disorder, even if it's not a diagnosable personality disorder.  I know that I am now, after being abandoned, much more likely to abandon someone else who shows signs of instability, and I realize that all of those with past abandonment trauma are more likely to abandon me.  It seems to lead to an increasing sense of alienation.  Sometimes I have to say that it's no wonder we are becoming more violent, paranoid, and sensitive as a whole.

My family was also EXTREMELY stable, and still is.  Only one person in my ENTIRE extended family (both sides!) has gotten a divorce, and it was for a very good reason, not just incompatibility or wanting something better.  I was raised with the ethic that commitments are serious, and if you promise to be with someone for better or worse, you better mean it.  I was raised with very high ethics and integrity with relating to other people; saying that "no one else will ever know" is not an excuse to do anything.  I was also raised by very generous people who never hesitated to give someone a ride, a meal, or a place to sleep.  I find that when I behave this way toward other people, I am quickly taken advantage of by people who do not return anything when I am in need.  It is hard not to become bitter.

In dating, people seem to ask, "What can you do for me?" and if they are displeased, they leave without warning or sympathy.  There is no gentleness or kindness.  I find myself thoroughly disappointed with people.  I feel like I need to sell myself like a product to convince them that I'm worth their time.  The first couple months of a relationship are always very traumatic for me because I know I am being evaluated and decided upon at every moment.  One guy put the brakes on our brand new relationship because he said his job was "obviously" more important.  My exBPD got twice the sexual attention in our relationship than I did and didn't bat an eye.  If I brought up inequalities, he said we weren't "keeping score."  I let it go on for months because I was afraid of him leaving me if I didn't oblige every time he wanted.  I feel like almost every relationship, *including* friendship, ends with me giving way more than I'm getting.  I really just want someone who cares about me like I care about them.

I would like not to be alone, but I don't even know where to start anymore.  I loved my (non-BPD) ex, my high school sweetheart, so much.  I am talking to him again and trying to convince him to give it another try with me.  We grew up together and are fairly well-matched in terms of dedication and generosity, which is more than I can say for anyone else I've met.  He hasn't dated anyone else and I keep telling him how bad it can be out there.

I am not a very political person and that's not the direction I am trying to take this, but I wonder sometimes in our modern society if we have neglected the importance of community and interpersonal connections in favor of personal gratification and material gain.  We've all seen the results of people being raised in insecure environments where they are under constant threat, and the problem doesn't seem to be getting better.

[steelwork]

I feel like I need to sell myself like a product to convince them that I'm worth their time.  The first couple months of a relationship are always very traumatic for me because I know I am being evaluated and decided upon at every moment.

... .

I feel like almost every relationship, *including* friendship, ends with me giving way more than I'm getting.  I really just want someone who cares about me like I care about them.

GEM, pardon me for asking, but have you given thought to where these patterns come from? Do you feel they only reflect a lack of character in the people around you? Or might there be some reason, something seated in your experience with your family, for you to feel the need to win and work hard to keep attachments? What you wrote, above, makes it sound like you believe the problem is how other people were raised.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think it is probably a combination of the two.  I don't tend to enjoy relationships that are purely social, and I would say that's true of most of my family members.  Very few people around me have people that they just hang out with.  If my parents are friends with people, they have the kind of relationship where they invite each other to stay in vacation homes, bring meals when people are sick, stand up for them when they are wronged, lend them things, etc.  They are all small town people who we could call on if we needed something.  Some grew up with my parents.  Some are neighbors or former neighbors.  They have been friends with my family for 40 years or more.

My friends from high school are the same way.  One of them asked if she could stay in my house if she came back to town because she didn't feel comfortable with her parents.  There was not even a doubt in my mind that I'd say yes.  We've been friends since second grade and I can't imagine saying no when I could help her out.  She'd do the same for me.  None of these things occur because of insecurity or desperation.  It's just what friends do.

I don't personally have many friends like that and I often wonder why.  I crave that kind of friendship.  I have since I was a teenager.  Every time I try to kindle a relationship like that, I get a chilly response.  Only in my late 20s did I finally find a "best friend" whom I can vent to or call whenever I need to, and who asks the same of me.  We exchange little gifts and send each other favorite songs and have long talks on the phone.  I never really had that with anyone else before.  It seems like girls are *supposed* to have a friend like that when they are kids, but I never did.  I don't do things for my best friend because I'm worried she'll abandon me -- not at all.  I would NEVER think of that.  When she was worried she'd end up living in her car with no place to stay, I invited her to come and stay with me.  That was a no-brainer.  She'd do it for me, too.  She doesn't have much, but she shares what she has with me, and I try to do the same.  That's what a real friend is.

So I guess maybe I am initially generous with people in the hopes that they will reciprocate and we'll form a bond, and most of the time, I just end up getting used.  But I'm just acting the way that I think a good friend should act.  My definition of friendship -- based on what I saw growing up -- consists of more than just warming a chair in a bar in proximity to me.  That is fairly meaningless.  I want someone who wants to share real life with me, including ups and downs and joys and struggles.   I find that a lot of people want to socialize with people with whom they don't want to form a friendship, and to me that feels like an empty waste of time.

I used to hang out with a group of people in the small town where I live now, a community theater group.  They started having community theater dinner nights, not inviting me, and then posting pictures of the group on Facebook, acting like the whole group was there.  When I called them out on it, they said that there were "different levels of friendship" in the group.  In other words, I didn't make the cut.  These are adults with kids, mind you.  I was hurt because I never would have done something like that to them.  They sure liked me when I wanted to help carry stuff backstage, though . . .

[steelwork]

So it's really all or nothing, I guess?

I come from a very unstable background. My parents split when I was two and got back together and split again. They each had affairs. I gather you would not consider them very upstanding; however, my mother is the most constant, loyal, generous friend I know. In fact, she can't seem to maintain interest in a friendship that doesn't involve her giving of herself to the point of self-abnegation. But that's another story.

As for me: I have friends all along the spectrum. I have people I like to hang out with and close friends of many decades' standing, and we have come to each other's aid, offered places to stay, etc. help rebuilding after illnesses, disasters, divorces, etc. Really, anyone I consider even a fairly good friend has my couch.

I realize we are only data points of one. I'm just saying, it seems we were raised pretty differently, but I don't think my upbringing has damaged my capacity for empathy. So I would caution against drawing conclusions about, say, rates of divorce and personality disorders. Not that simple.

What I am pressing here is an examination of the gap between what you're saying you value (only deep, loyal friendship) and what you are getting.

I used to hang out with a group of people in the small town where I live now, a community theater group.  They started having community theater dinner nights, not inviting me, and then posting pictures of the group on Facebook, acting like the whole group was there.  When I called them out on it, they said that there were "different levels of friendship" in the group.  In other words, I didn't make the cut.  These are adults with kids, mind you.  I was hurt because I never would have done something like that to them.  They sure liked me when I wanted to help carry stuff backstage, though . . .

That's a real bummer, and a pretty immature response. These people have disappointed you, but I hope it doesn't sour you on friendship. Good friends are out there. It's sometimes a matter of learning how to recognize them.

If I'm getting this right, you've gone into friendships assuming that people will have your back and then been disappointed that they didn't. This is a complicated area, but sometimes, upon reflection, you just find you have to adjust your expectations of a friend. Over time, that friendship might grow into what you want, or it might not.

Weirdly, I am very good at friendship. Lousy at romantic relationships, but good with friends. Many times, I've found it was a matter of cutting people slack and then watching what they did with it.

That difference is instructive. If I can just get the meaning of it, I think I'll have learned a lot. The romantic attachment is problematic for me in a way the nonromantic attachment isn't.

[GreenEyedMonster]

So it's really all or nothing, I guess?

I come from a very unstable background. My parents split when I was two and got back together and split again. They each had affairs. I gather you would not consider them very upstanding; however, my mother is the most constant, loyal, generous friend I know. In fact, she can't seem to maintain interest in a friendship that doesn't involve her giving of herself to the point of self-abnegation. But that's another story.

No, I don't see it as all or nothing, and my list in the original post was only intended as examples of ways that people experience abandonment trauma that weren't common in the past.  Of course there are people who do or experience those things who turn out just fine.  As we know, there are people from stable backgrounds who develop BPD.  I'm not intending to make a value judgment about whether someone's behavior is good enough, but rather to point out that a lot of people are carrying a level of abandonment fear/trauma that they may not even be aware of.  Sometimes divorce serves an important purpose, like getting away from a criminal husband (like my cousin's) or a toxic person, for example, and these decisions can make people's lives better rather than worse in terms of trauma, so such situations are subject to individual evaluation.  My family, though incredibly stable, isn't perfect either.  More on morals and ethics below.

I'm in my early 30s, which might be part of what colors my experience.  I am not sure if you are older or younger than me, steelwork.  My experience with the Millennial dating scene is that people are often evaluating you like an asset rather than a person.  The idea that you should turn someone down politely is even lost on a lot of the people I've met.

When it comes to morals, I'm talking more about the ethics of taking from someone when you don't intend to reciprocate.  The theater group who gladly used my services to help on the set crew and then left me behind when they went out for pizza would be a perfect example.  I have colleagues who are happy to call me up and ask if I have something they can use for a certain project, but when I call them up, they tell me to go make my own stuff.  People who share back with me equally earn my respect and friendship.

With my latest group of so-called friends, at least one of them actually witnessed my exBPD harassing me, and participated in it by proxy, but refused to do anything about it.  He drew a line in the sand with my exBPD with his behavior that he then refused to enforce -- he went back on his word.  Then he got my other friends to agree with him and turn a blind eye.  His shenanigans could have cost me over a thousand dollars in legal fees.  I wouldn't throw my worst enemy to the wolves like that -- it's not part of my ethics -- and I am horrified that my "friend" would.  This same person told me that he lost his job a couple days before that happened, and I e-mailed him back telling him that if he needed anything at all he could call me.  The only conclusion I can draw about his morals is that he's looking out for #1.

I spent several hundred dollars partially financing a trip to a special place my exBPD hadn't been to before.  When he took a trip to a place I had never been, he chose not to take me even though he could have, and said, "I deserve to go somewhere you haven't been."  So much for reciprocity.

These kinds of experiences give me the sense that I exist at other people's convenience.  I don't have a lot of faith in humanity right now.

[steelwork]

Sorry for spamming your topic, but there's something here that I'm just not quite managing to say. I'll try again. I was struck by some of what you report as your subjective experiences in dating and friendship.

In dating, people seem to ask, "What can you do for me?" and if they are displeased, they leave without warning or sympathy.  There is no gentleness or kindness.  I find myself thoroughly disappointed with people.  I feel like I need to sell myself like a product to convince them that I'm worth their time.

I'm struck by two things:
1. This isn't, generally, my subjective experience. Why are our experiences different? Sure, there are jerks out there, but I can't remember the last time someone I was dating or even friends with dumped me for not "doing something" for them.

2. Once you find yourself disappointed with someone, do you still feel the need to sell yourself? Once you detect that kind of selfishness, can you readjust so that you don't need to convince them of your worth?

They sure liked me when I wanted to help carry stuff backstage, though . . .

This is what I mean. My assumption going in is that a friendship will be based on mutual like. That we will think each other are great people. I have certainly met people who flattered me or acted friendly when they had an obvious selfish motive, but I would not enter into a friendship with someone like that.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Sorry for spamming your topic, but there's something here that I'm just not quite managing to say. I'll try again. I was struck by some of what you report as your subjective experiences in dating and friendship.

In dating, people seem to ask, "What can you do for me?" and if they are displeased, they leave without warning or sympathy.  There is no gentleness or kindness.  I find myself thoroughly disappointed with people.  I feel like I need to sell myself like a product to convince them that I'm worth their time.

I'm struck by two things:
1. This isn't, generally, my subjective experience. Why are our experiences different? Sure, there are jerks out there, but I can't remember the last time someone I was dating or even friends with dumped me for not "doing something" for them.

2. Once you find yourself disappointed with someone, do you still feel the need to sell yourself? Once you detect that kind of selfishness, can you readjust so that you don't need to convince them of your worth?

No, I don't hang around and try to please people after that.  For example, I've run into men who were not very financially well-off who came over to my house and obviously were checking it out in hopes that it would be their new pad.  One of them started discussing where he'd hang stuff on the walls.  I had no intention of having a lover move in with me any time in the remotely near future, and I wondered how he would take that news.  He also asked if my family might take a "fourth person" on our Caribbean vacation.  I hated to break it to him, but the chance of that happening was zero.  He was, incidentally, one of the least accommodating people I've dated.  He claimed that his offensive sense of humor was "part of who he was" and, despite my polite request, refused to curtail it in front of my parents . . . who he hoped would buy him a vacation, apparently.  That kind of thing just makes me roll my eyes.

I try to stay friends with people for a while before I get emotionally involved to get a sense of how reciprocal they are, and what they want out of the relationship.  Watching how people react to generosity gives me clues about our compatibility.

Online dating also comes to mind, where people have lists of all of their wants in a partner.  Some online dating profiles seem be more like a Christmas wish list than an introduction to someone's personality.  Athletic body, shaved down there, sex by date 3 at least, must love to watch sports, must love dogs, stuff like that.  That's probably an example of the medium becoming the message, but online dating is pretty huge and makes a big impact on my age group as far as expectations.  When you meet someone in real life, you don't have the luxury of knowing all those things up front short of interrogating the person, so I think people tend to be more open-minded when the facts aren't all in their faces right away.

[steelwork]

I mean, all those people you describe sound like selfish jerks. You are well rid of them, if you ask me. I guess I've just been incredibly lucky.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Yeah.  Like I said, if someone takes from me when they don't intend to give in proportion . . . I think that's a sign of poor ethics.  With my exBPD, I let it go for a long time, hoping he'd catch on to the "I give, then you give" deal with the relationship.  He did a little, but it wasn't necessarily an easy or entirely willing transition.  He didn't pay for me on our first date, either, even though I had driven into the city and paid a hefty price for parking to see one of his performances.  And I only ordered a $5 latte.

On the first date I went on after I broke up with my exBPD, the guy showed up 30 minutes late because he didn't want to pay for parking.  He had me pay for him, too.  At least he left the tip.

There are unfortunately more examples where these came from.  But anyway, going back to the original point of the post, when I have these experiences it adds to my sense of violation.  I start to feel like a human vending machine, providing financing for people's dreams and padding for their egos, when I have rarely had a man go to much trouble to win me over.  The guy who eyed up the Caribbean vacation actually got off to a really good start, trying to win me over with his generosity, but it went downhill from there. 

Part of it is the demographic I'm dating in.  Like I said, I'm in my early 30s.  Most of the guys I've dated have been in their late 30s or early 40s.  I don't have kids and I try to avoid dating men who already have kids, and I am realizing that what is left at this point in life are many man-children who don't like responsibility.  The nature of the demographic sort of self-selects people who bypassed the responsibilities of marriage and kids at the time that most people embraced adulthood.  Often times their quality of life isn't that great because they lack the finances to do things like buying a house or traveling, because they are alone, and another person is a convenient way to make that happen.  Four of the men who come to mind as the worst users or poorest reciprocators still lived with their parents, which is perhaps an indication of their feelings toward responsibility.  That has risen to the top of my red flag list.

Men who get married and have kids younger are usually a little bit more enthusiastic about the joys of caring for someone else and being cared for in return.  Many of my friends are married to great men who step up and selflessly take care of sick children or cook wonderful dinners for their spouses.  I need to find me a man like that!

[steelwork]

Maybe you should consider dating men with kids! Or is that a no-go?

I guess I am resistant to arguments that "all the good ones are taken." Maybe I'm a pollyanna, or maybe it's just that I remember being single at all kinds of different ages, and I'd rather date me at 35 or 40 or 45 than me at 25. Hands down.

But GEM, I am struck again by the emphasis on transactions--who pays for what, if favors are reciprocated. It really comes up a lot? It's never been much of an issue for me. What about other signs of generosity in a person, like if someone is tenderhearted, or laughs at other people's jokes, or is curious about people they meet?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Maybe you should consider dating men with kids! Or is that a no-go?

I guess I am resistant to arguments that "all the good ones are taken." Maybe I'm a pollyanna, or maybe it's just that I remember being single at all kinds of different ages, and I'd rather date me at 35 or 40 or 45 than me at 25. Hands down.

But GEM, I am struck again by the emphasis on transactions--who pays for what, if favors are reciprocated. It really comes up a lot? It's never been much of an issue for me. What about other signs of generosity in a person, like if someone is tenderhearted, or laughs at other people's jokes, or is curious about people they meet?

I am currently waffling on the idea of dating men with kids.  I've come close.  We'll see.  It's something I'm thinking about, mostly for the reasons I've discussed.  Most of the men I've dated recently have disliked kids because they're too needy . . . 

I am a very independent person and I don't need to be taken care of by anyone, so I'm not looking for a handout.  With most of the people I'm talking about here, the transaction issue was either 1) a first impression gained on a single date with a man or 2) a very obvious pattern in the relationship.  It was absolutely egregious with my exBPD.  One time, a friend bought a dessert to share with our entire table, and my exBPD ate the whole thing himself!  Sharing wasn't his forte.  Things like that were a regular occurrence with him and literally too numerous to list.  I chalked it up to limited relationship experience at first, but that excuse only held for so long.

Yes, I think other things are signs of generosity.  I would really appreciate finding someone who was very tender-hearted.  That would be a huge turn-on.  Other than my ex I dated for 12 years (one of my favorite people in the world), I wouldn't say the other guys I dated would fit that description.  My exBPD was merciless and vengeful.  Another guy I went out with just once spent that one date talking about why he thought people were a-holes and how he wasn't responsible for his DUI.  My 12-year ex was the kindest person imaginable.  He once used his connections through a friend in the men's glee club at college for them to show up at my dining hall during dinner and sing "Let Me Call You Sweetheart."  I love it when guys do things like that that just let you know they thought about you.  It doesn't have to be expensive or elaborate.  I love it when a guy offers to come to an art show where I have a piece on display or one of my musical performances, and I try to do that as much as I can for them too.  I would say that interest in another person is a wonderful form of generosity.  Unfortunately, my exBPD decided he had more interesting things to do every time I had a musical performance, despite the fact that I offered to come to every one of his.

To tell the truth, I don't think transactions are a big deal, because I think in an ideal situation both people are willing to pitch in so you don't spend that much time talking about it.  That's how it was with my 12-year ex.  We didn't really spend much time talking about money because it was a given that we were both contributing.  A friend of mine had a similar experience to my bad ones.  She went out with a guy who informed her that since he had paid for the first date, she was paying for the second date.  She was horrified -- not by the fact that she had to contribute, but by the fact that he had literally assigned it to her rather than letting her offer!  When she said he was rude, he accused her of being a gold-digger.  I think if things like this become awkward enough that you spend more than a passing moment talking or thinking about them, that's a sign of trouble.