Feelings vs Logic

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Can somebody help shed light on an issue I've been ruminating on?

I've found that reading old texts from my pwBPD traits sometimes reminds of the reasons why it all fell apart. So as, perhaps not to shoulder the full blame of the failure of the r/s as my ex would have me to believe.

In a major 'argument' we had ( and i say argument because i was frustrated by the circular logic and pointed that out to her) She told me that she does not trust me? When i asked why she didn't trust me, she told that she just feels that way "in her gut". And that "its not one thing is just a particular feeling... "  and that  "... it's not logical, its emotions... "

Is that considered acceptable in todays psychology?

Of course, I become more frustrated. And I mean frustrated, not mean or aggressive. BUT, she interpreted that way and ran out... .only for me to be relegated to text messages.

Am I wrong to get frustrated or upset when somebody I love tells me that they don't trust me. And then cannot articulate why? ... outside of "I just feel that way?"

And again, i will add my ex has her MSW. So, i guess my questioning her was grounded in, I thought she would be able to handle such serious topics as trust in r/s?

I do see now however, how emotionally overpowering i might have been given her illness. But, what's a guy to do when the your lover tells you they don't trust you? ... and then can't tell you why?

I guess i'm feeling guilty having reacted so poorly... how was I to know though?

[Mars22]

Can somebody help shed light on an issue I've been ruminating on?

I've found that reading old texts from my pwBPD traits sometimes reminds of the reasons why it all fell apart. So as, perhaps not to shoulder the full blame of the failure of the r/s as my ex would have me to believe.

In a major 'argument' we had ( and i say argument because i was frustrated by the circular logic and pointed that out to her) She told me that she does not trust me? When i asked why she didn't trust me, she told that she just feels that way "in her gut". And that "its not one thing is just a particular feeling... "  and that  "... it's not logical, its emotions... "

Is that considered acceptable in todays psychology?

Of course, I become more frustrated. And I mean frustrated, not mean or aggressive. BUT, she interpreted that way and ran out... .only for me to be relegated to text messages.

Am I wrong to get frustrated or upset when somebody I love tells me that they don't trust me. And then cannot articulate why? ... outside of "I just feel that way?"

And again, i will add my ex has her MSW. So, i guess my questioning her was grounded in, I thought she would be able to handle such serious topics as trust in r/s?

I do see now however, how emotionally overpowering i might have been given her illness. But, what's a guy to do when the your lover tells you they don't trust you? ... and then can't tell you why?

I guess i'm feeling guilty having reacted so poorly... how was I to know though?

[married21years]

hi we all beat ourselves up

to judge ourselves too harshly and strive for perfection

 

[bus boy]

Dancing around in there circle of confused logic Is frustrating. Don't beat your self up. They wear us down over time and patience run out, we are human. My ex told me she could never trust me and couldn't give me a good reason why. They want to hurt you mentally and emotionally. I wanted my ex to open up, talk more, let me in, that only stirred her anger. They always move the goal posts. No matter what you do, they will come up with something else. As long as your partner can dump on you they will. They don't have to get honest about trust issues or any other issue because they dump there poison on non's, feel better until they need to dump again and get to keep there secrets locked away for another day until they need to dump again on there carefully selected non. We take it, we feel horrible about our selves and until we get it or they find another source, the cycle goes on.

[married21years]

so familiar bus boy 

[bus boy]

Her trust issues are probably her. She doesn't trust herself. That lie, call you a lier. It's usually something they don't like about them self or close family member, that they project on us. My ex always called my sister a thief. My ex's father and brother were bad thieves. She would never admit it so she dumped her anger and shame on me, when I had enough, I told her to look at her family before calling down my family. This opened up more anger in her. Knowing, abusing my family to me hurt, she made this a regular thing. Bring up any issue of emotional abuse, they look you in the eye and say, don't know what your talking about.

[married21years]

i am accused of so much stuff she did to me

projection and gas lighting

my life was so bad all i did was try to take care of her and this drove me down

then when she claimed to have the same problems in childhood i felt so bad for her

but i found out it was all lies when i made her tell people and the truth came out

a year of my life lost to her treachery

it is like trying to nail treacle to the wall trying to get to the truth

i gave up and found another way to get the truth i have it now and i am justified in my divorce and realize i didnt have the issues she made out

she destroyed my self estem and friendships and i will never forgive her!

[Moselle]

Mars22,

Well done for reaching out! This is such a difficult dynamic to experience, and your concerns are valued here.

Your topic is something we are working on at the moment on the Detaching Board, because it is so key to our recovery.

Very often from the Borderline's perspective  their feeling is the whole truth, and the facts become fluid or manipulable to suit the feeling. This is clearly not logical and thence our frustration when trying to understand their behaviour

When they blame us for their feeling, they are using a self preservation  tool called projection, when someone else (probably you) becomes the reason for their feeling. It's not true so it's best  not to validate this.

There is often another dynamic at play for the partner. Because of the trauma, we often find it difficult to feel and generally try to understand what is happening from an exclusively rational perspective. Do you recognise this? Are you able to feel emotions right now?

When we are able to be present emotionally and rationally it is called "wisemind". Have you heard of it?

[bus boy]

Not meaning to sound like a broken record, forgiving is a vital part of letting go. Something us non's struggle with. Growing from the after affects of a NPD/BPD r/s is like following 12 steps of recovery from addiction, there is no short cuts through the pain. Our  recovery is daily and on going. If we stay stuck in one spot, that's where we stay. I don't like what my ex did, don't like what she's doing but I must keep moving on. The things ex is doing proves to me she's stuck so that gives me strength to keep growing.

[william3693]

Boy this doesn't help my thoughts that I may have BPD.

In my rs with my ex I felt I could tell when she was lying and it was a "gut feeling"
along with certain behaviors at times.I think I was asking for reassurance  from her that she was
not.This was a hot button for her and her responses not only did not reassure me, they had the
effect of making me more insecure.She might say "even if I was seeing somebody else it is none of your
business" even though she was the one who wanted an exclusive relationship.
I do not think she was capable of the empathy needed to work through this issue, even though most times I
was able to point to certain behaviors.
I think maybe the main point is that in general they are not capable for the  most part
in working thru relationship issues in part because they are incapable of the empathy needed to do so.

 

[william3693]

Another thought is that they will find your hot button.
They will find an issue which gets to you to pull you into
an argument.They are very,very good at this.
Solve one and they will find another.Sooner or later you may start
to question yourself.

[GreenEyedMonster]

To add another thought, here . . . she may not trust you because on some subconscious level, you remind her of someone who violated her in the past.

She may not be able to tell you what you might do, or why you remind her of that person, but I would say that's the most likely explanation.  I do not agree that she "wants" to hurt you or is projecting.  I'm going with Occam's Razor here.

Triggers are kind of insidious.  They can sneak up on you when you don't expect it, and they often arise as a gut feeling.  They often defy logic and hinge on some subconscious association the person has made.  Sometimes it takes a lot for someone to articulate why they are scared, or what is scaring them.  The good news it's that it's not your fault, and in fact has almost nothing to do with you. 

I was in a relationship where my bf would bail on commitments the night before.  When I got into my next relationship, and we planned a weekend trip, I started having panic attacks the night before because of my previous trauma.  I didn't know until that moment that that possibility even scared me.  Obviously I had some PTSD-like issues and had discovered something that had triggered me.  Fortunately, I didn't accuse my new bf of being about to abandon me, but I did talk to him about what I had felt and why.  That's what you have to learn to do so that the other person doesn't end up "walking on eggshells" and constantly afraid of triggering you.  There is a debate in the medical community about whether BPD is actually C-PTSD, and there are arguments on both sides.

Consider how you might react in the future when someone begins to eerily remind you of the woman who did this to you.

[bus boy]

HI William3693, I very clearly understand how they push the hot button.

[StayStrongNow]

greeneyedmonster I heard from the T who saw me and the ustbxBPDw a few times together and several other times separate that he thought I reminded the stbx of her father who beat her as a child. She beat me several times, a few leaving open wounds that one time the police charged her with.

I really don't understand this T, he saw me about 6 times, 2 times with her and she might have seen him up to 30 times and never charged us a dime. Not sure what his motivation was, he did seem thrown off balance when she first met her. Who knows maybe he is a NPD and wants (needs) to see her and would never  diagnose her as a BPD, he likes her and wouldn't want to lose her. He only told me she has some traits of BPD. So in summary I don't know if this T is worth my time my last text was a "why didn't you diagnose BPD and goodbye. But I do believe that to her I represented her dad as one type of tigger. My hunch is further solidified by the fact that the new replacement is the same height and has the same features as her father.

[gotbushels]

I've found that reading old texts from my pwBPD traits sometimes reminds of the reasons why it all fell apart. So as, perhaps not to shoulder the full blame of the failure of the r/s as my ex would have me to believe.

Shouldering all the blame sounds really tough Mars22. Many of us have carried that burden. Well, I think there's even an avatar picture for it (the guy holding the globe).

I encourage you to look at this thread specifically discussing the blame % issue:

i think 50/50 is a good overall number to shoot for

If you're still doubting, you can flip it around and think about this one:

When a partner blames you for 100% of the problems and sends you to therapy (and even expects you to go to a couples' communication class by yourself), then where is the equity in that?

In a major 'argument' we had ( and i say argument because i was frustrated by the circular logic and pointed that out to her) She told me that she does not trust me?

Well done recalling your frustration and also identifying the "circularity".

Also well done identifying the specific "trust" issue Mars22. Lack of ability to trust is a special issue for pwBPDs beyond "normal" people. Something that might be a relief to you, is that some say the lack of trust has nothing to do with your behaviour; it has to do with the way people with BPD view the world. (p. 69; link).

To skip all the discussions, a simple way to think about it is that trust is built by some sensation of constancy. pwBPDs tend to have a special and complex struggle with constancy. This is one reason why you can't "prove" some things to a pwBPD using logic and make it stick. It's not the answer. Can you accept that her way of using logic is not the same as your way of using logic?


  Moselle mentioned wisemind. It can help you specifically with the ability to be willing to accept your differences in this particular logic usage difference. If you still have questions or if it takes time to accept, that's all okay too, but I think the important thing is to explore it. Also recall that here, accepting ≠ approval.

[Mars22]

Mars22,

Well done for reaching out! This is such a difficult dynamic to experience, and your concerns are valued here.

Your topic is something we are working on at the moment on the Detaching Board, because it is so key to our recovery.

Very often from the Borderline's perspective  their feeling is the whole truth, and the facts become fluid or manipulable to suit the feeling. This is clearly not logical and thence our frustration when trying to understand their behaviour

When they blame us for their feeling, they are using a self preservation  tool called projection, when someone else (probably you) becomes the reason for their feeling. It's not true so it's best  not to validate this.

There is often another dynamic at play for the partner. Because of the trauma, we often find it difficult to feel and generally try to understand what is happening from an exclusively rational perspective. Do you recognise this? Are you able to feel emotions right now?

When we are able to be present emotionally and rationally it is called "wisemind". Have you heard of it?

Thank you all for sharing your experiences and perspectives. It seems our suffering on this topic is universal... like much of this disorders effects on us nons.

Moselle - Its been awhile for me reaching out. As, its been about 5 months and have been trying to not ruminate that much but, sadly I'm finding I'm still not letting go as quickly has i presumed.

I guess I'm still bargaining the grief has it would be. I fully understand that there was nothing i could have done back then so, reading the texts brought feelings to the forefront again. I came across the Trust dialogue and it really hit a chord. Oddly, i did have rational perspective back then. I stood my ground as it would be it and she interpreted that as 'aggressive' and claimed that she couldn't talk to me because I was 'angry'. When, all I was, was upset an frustrated. Then suddenly, she blamed the aggressiveness as the reason why when, well... there was a problem before I got *aggressive* so, how can a reaction be reason when the cause was first? Cause being ... 'she doesn't trusts me'? See the logic? Its the flipping of the script. It's mind numbing.

Anyway, yes - I'm armchair buddhist and before i met my ex I was balanced calm soul and had silent wise mind. This relationship has redefined my understanding suffering.



 

To skip all the discussions, a simple way to think about it is that trust is built by some sensation of constancy. pwBPDs tend to have a special and complex struggle with constancy. This is one reason why you can't "prove" some things to a pwBPD using logic and make it stick. It's not the answer. Can you accept that her way of using logic is not the same as your way of using logic?




Great question. I guess once i understand that. I will have accepted the whole mess. I kinda knew it when it was happening but, was in love and wanted to help her. Truth is, she never empathized with my plight and my frustration.




  Moselle mentioned wisemind. It can help you specifically with the ability to be willing to accept your differences in this particular logic usage difference. If you still have questions or if it takes time to accept, that's all okay too, but I think the important thing is to explore it. Also recall that here, accepting ≠ approval.

Gotbushels - Its always good to get a reminder. Its tough thinking you make headway to get down the road and then suddenly, you find yourself caught in a wave and then getting SLAMmed back on the beach.

[Moselle]

Moselle - Its been awhile for me reaching out. As, its been about 5 months and have been trying to not ruminate that much but, sadly I'm finding I'm still not letting go as quickly has i presumed.

Hang in there Mars. Its not easy, but the passing of time will bring healing. Especially if we apply both the  emotional and rational side to the task.

There will be more discussion on this topic over the next few days. Watch out for it and please post your experiences and comments. They are so valuable.

[Mars22]

Thanks Moselle... I'm getting there.