What itch was being scratched & how can you scratch it yourself?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I just thought of another way to think about why I stayed as long as I did.

I had a few big itches that he scratched reasonably well. Initially, during the idealization phase, of course he scratched many, but as time wore on there were really only a couple.

And I think he knew it. Knew that, in the end, that's all he was good at and good for. He'd said as much often enough.

The two big itches in my case were: Intellectual Stimulation & Physical Intimacy.
They are both two hugely important values, I guess is the right word, for me and he was pretty adept at both.
 
He knew how to do just enough to keep me interested and coming back for ever smaller crumbs until even those two things had dwindled down to so little of interest to me that I decided it was just pointless to continue. Whatever I had to offer another human being seemed invisible to him anyway, and there was just a void between us.

Anyway, the important thing is that I re-realise how much emphasis I put on those two things. And to work out how to get them without sacrificing so damn much.

I know this is obvious, but I find it useful to re-frame stuff for myself all the time, it seems.

[VitaminC]

I just thought of another way to think about why I stayed as long as I did.

I had a few big itches that he scratched reasonably well. Initially, during the idealization phase, of course he scratched many, but as time wore on there were really only a couple.

And I think he knew it. Knew that, in the end, that's all he was good at and good for. He'd said as much often enough.

The two big itches in my case were: Intellectual Stimulation & Physical Intimacy.
They are both two hugely important values, I guess is the right word, for me and he was pretty adept at both.
 
He knew how to do just enough to keep me interested and coming back for ever smaller crumbs until even those two things had dwindled down to so little of interest to me that I decided it was just pointless to continue. Whatever I had to offer another human being seemed invisible to him anyway, and there was just a void between us.

Anyway, the important thing is that I re-realise how much emphasis I put on those two things. And to work out how to get them without sacrificing so damn much.

I know this is obvious, but I find it useful to re-frame stuff for myself all the time, it seems.

[Mutt]

Hi VitaminC,

Anyway, the important thing is that I re-realise how much emphasis I put on those two things. And to work out how to get them without sacrificing so damn much.

Do you mean emotional intimacy? Did you feel like your ex was emotionally intimate at the onset of the r/s, the honeymoon phase, and was not reciprocating later in the r/s?

[VitaminC]

Yes. I felt there was an emotional intimacy at the start, which rather than growing as we were together longer, faded. Less engagement, less trust, until it was all in tatters.

I realised early enough that here was someone who did not, actually, see in me what I thought he'd seen. I felt that he did not "see" me at all, and said so, often.

I thought I saw him though, in all his broken beauty. I could have loved that, I did love it, and cherish it too. If he'd been able to let me. "Letting" me would have required a deepening of that intimacy. Of which I was not really capable either, of course.

I sacrificed trust, emotional growth, loyalty, honesty, self-respect - oh, so many things, just to keep the brain fed in the particular way he fed my brain, and yes, the sex. But both of those things began to be less nourishing and the more I felt that and still kept on, the more I felt shame. 

Back in January, after another nasty break-up, I brought him back, again. I had in my mind to do a photo project to help me understand what mystery I felt there was in him that kept me mesmerized.    I am very alive to mysteries!  I have to laugh now, because I think i often create them myself to make the world more interesting.

Did I answer the question? Thank you for asking, dear Mutt!

[Mutt]

It does answer my question   I think that many of us can relate with mixing up emotional intensity with emotional intimacy with how our ex partners over share and mirror us. My ex wants emotional intimacy but she's not capable with sustaining healthy adult intimacy, intimacy triggers the disorder.

I'm not saying that this is your experience or anyone else's but my ex taught me that what I sought is an intimate r/s but that I needed self work due to fear of abandonment and pushing people that are close to me because I don't want to get hurt. My ex has subconscious defense mechanisms from early childhood experiences that she's not aware of that she needs to get help for, BPD is difficult to overcome, I can work on my own issues though, whereas the difficulty curve is steeper for my ex. I can't help someone that doesn't want to get help, someday she may realize that there's something off with her and seek help.

[VitaminC]

... .someday she may realize that there's something off with her and seek help.

Yep, she might. Or she might (kind of) know already, at least in her darker, more lucid moments. Mine did. Maybe a different sort of character to me could have 'helped' him. Maybe. I don't know.

There's too much speculation altogether with some people and some situations, isn't there. Some mysteries just become boring because of their unsolvability (to put it back into the kind of language I tend to think in).

The most important thing is what you learned. What we learn from every entanglement. Searching, always searching - it's not a bad way to be in the world

[gotbushels]

Lol maybe intellectual stimulation. Maybe on a subconscious level. When you are dealing with dysregulation the "wrong" way (e.g., logic), you can go from 9pm to 5am with a pwBPD. That's like doing the same 2 hour exam, 4 times in a row. Then fun with an intimate partner at 5.30am. But after a few weeks, three nights in a row, and on a weekday... .not fun.

Oh, helping someone feels good. Being needed to the extreme felt good. I never seemed to have a craving for this helping thing--so I thought it was weird that it may have applied to my relationship. Even though it didn't seem like a big deal to me, I think subconsciously it had a strong "good feeling" reinforcement. I didn't really come to confront that until well after the breakup though. It started bugging me when I saw that caretakers--while often skilful--are thought to be paradoxically highly needy and disappointment-prone.

I think that many of us can relate with mixing up emotional intensity with emotional intimacy with how our ex partners over share and mirror us. My ex wants emotional intimacy but she's not capable with sustaining healthy adult intimacy, intimacy triggers the disorder.

Mutt I definitely relate.

[Mutt]

... .someday she may realize that there's something off with her and seek help.

Yep, she might. Or she might (kind of) know already, at least in her darker, more lucid moments. Mine did. Maybe a different sort of character to me could have 'helped' him. Maybe. I don't know.

That's a good point, if she knew, she has responsibility to treat her mental illness?

[VitaminC]

That's a good point, if she knew, she has responsibility to treat her mental illness?

C'mon, responsibility for oneself is the hardest responsibility of all! You don't me to tell you!

And anyway, even if it were that straightforward :  recognize mental illness > get treatment > tadahh! - it would still be a long, hard road with multiple cul-de-sacs and wrong turns and little coffeshops etc. along the way to get waylaid by. 

For a moment there you sounded as if you were expecting miracles, not just of the BPD ex, but yourself. Surely you don't?

[VitaminC]

Hey, Mutt, I don't mean to sound facetious.
I hope it doesn't come across that way.

But I don't understand where your comment about your ex came from, really. Kind of felt like out of nowhere, from my perspective. Feel like explaining? 

[VitaminC]

When you are dealing with dysregulation the "wrong" way (e.g., logic), you can go from 9pm to 5am with a pwBPD. That's like doing the same 2 hour exam, 4 times in a row.

Haha, good one!

I see what you're saying, but the intellectual stimulation in my case was common interests in academic pursuits we're both involved in. I hadn't met anyone so bright in a long while and that ability to think clearly and analytically AND to apply it to subjects that interested me was a pretty heady combination.

But I can do that myself and find my own tribe within a tribe. It's just exciting to find a bunch of stuff in one person, and you get to have sex with them, and you like similar kinds of music and stuff.

I've found a very bright AND wise bunch of people here, for instance. And for that I'm very grateful.

[C.Stein]

I find many of the things discussed here can be met with like interests friends, other than the sex.  On the issue of sex, it is unimportant in the grand scheme of things.  All too often there is too much weight given to sex and not enough weight given to the really important aspects of an intimate relationship.  Great sex is  ... .well great ... .just like a really good piece of chocolate.  Thing is it holds little to no importance outside of the "bedroom" but all too often we might find ourselves thinking it does.  The ability to be emotionally intimate with another person goes far deeper than sex and for this reason I feel many relationships fail, particularly those involving a pwBPD.  

How do you define emotional intimacy?

[VitaminC]

 Thing is it holds little to no importance outside of the "bedroom" but all too often we might find ourselves thinking it does.  The ability to be emotionally intimate with another person goes far deeper than sex and for this reason I feel many relationships fail, particularly those involving a pwBPD.  

How do you define emotional intimacy?

Broadly speaking, I agree with you, C.Stein.

However, it gets tangled pretty quickly. We get into  binaries really easily - feeling vs rational thought, emotional vs physical intimacy. It's good to realise that we can think about these things as separate so that we can address them more calmly and specifically. That's helpful, and I think a lot of us here are engaged in exactly that pursuit, whether we're still trying to make it work, or detaching, or detached, or engaged in better self-understanding with the pwBPD fading into a memory. It's kind of a scientific approach to the messiness of being human. So that's absolutely fine.

I do think that there's something very special about sex. We are physical beings; our intelligence or humanity or consciousness, or whatever way we put it, is embodied . Of course sex is only one way we have of enjoying our physical existence and I agree that it has a sometimes overly emphasised place in our lives and it can confuse things. Especially, especially, because it's one of the expressions of our physical selves that is so closely linked to our emotions, which are closely linked to our thoughts, which is us - the singular human left at the end of the formula. Or chain, or whatever way we conceptualize this.

I personally find sexual intimacy hugely important. Particularly as I have a very soft distinguishing line between that and emotional intimacy. They are linked, at least in the case of a romantic partner. I know people that have a, what I would define as, hard distinguishing line between the two intimacies. I guess they're lucky, I don't know.


I find this train of thought very interesting, and would love to hear what others think or how you figure it.

Having said all that, your question at the end there is a very good one. I consider myself to be emotionally intimate with my friends. And I don't need to have sex with them to complete that. So what's the difference?

You've now got me thinking about emotional intimacy & how I recognize and grant that access to myself. ( A little grudgingly and uncomfortably, if I'm honest ). And the nature of sexual intimacy and what is happening for me when I have and grant access to that!
It's actually not something I can answer to myself off the bat. Hm.

So thank you very much for engaging and for posing the question!

What about you?

[earlgrey]

Sex says we have intimacy, physical intimacy that is, and we have trust, but it doesn’t say we have emotional intimacy.

 In fact quite the opposite.

What I think it does say (and this is on the basis of my present experience) is that if I give you my body you can appreciate how emotionally ‘available’ I am, there is no barrier between us. Enjoy our togetherness. We really connect.

(Or being cynical maybe it just says shut up and enjoy the ride?)

I go along because I am quite happy to have sex, but while doing so I know a more profound emotional, cerebral, connection is not happening, and that the sex is merely a decoy a pretense an effigy of a real emotional connection.

OK, I’m a guy getting distracted by sex (11 o’clock news as one wag quipped), I’ll take it for what it is, but also happy to realise (in my case) it is not indicative of anything  more meaningful.

Vitamin C you had 2 itches, I’ve just got the one left for now!

[VitaminC]

I go along because I am quite happy to have sex, but while doing so I know a more profound emotional, cerebral, connection is not happening, and that the sex is merely a decoy a pretense an effigy of a real emotional connection.

Vitamin C you had 2 itches, I’ve just got the one left for now!

Ok, EarlGrey, my question for you is for how long you can keep that going? I managed to keep it going for a few months, because I kidded myself about what was happening and because there were a couple of days of actual connection (or something close enough to it that I could fill in the gaps with my overactive imagination). In the end it felt cheap and empty and crappy and it was easy to walk away.

When I say easy... .far easier than before and I knew I'd not wander back again. There were residual issues to sort out, of course, in my mind and I hope I'm well on my way now.

I know everyone is different and what things mean to us is predicated on too many things to list here. I also think it's a different matter if one is aware that this is A and not B. So it's only sex, the other things I need or want are separate and I'm not getting them. If the effigy doesn't confuse you, that's ok, I suppose.

In my own case, I am so prone to filling the world with wondrous imaginings that I have to be a little careful I don't ascribe B to A, as I did for a while.

I just don't really "get" how people keep the two things separate... .the more I think about it, the less I can fathom it.

Doesn't it make you kind of sad or lonely?

[VitaminC]

But C.Stein's really good question was: What is emotional intimacy for you?

That's important to think about. For me anyway.

[earlgrey]

My r/s has been empty since I first understood something was not quite right... .wedding night about 6 yrs ago.

The sex has always ticked along but while it is not orthodox (ie it doesn't mean real intimacy and love) it is a small 'consolation' (for me) for what is otherwise a very barren emotional landscape. It took me a long time to dissociate it from what it normally means. I used to hope for a hug and a cuddle too... .

While I am working on me, it (the sex) gives a feeling of 'normality' to the couple. I sometimes feel guilty playing pretend couples, but in our dysfunctional world such pretense keeps things calm.

I havent' been able to actually divorce (not because of the sex, but because I listen to others) but I will soon be able to follow my own desires to terminate this r/s. The sex will end.

As for emotional intimacy... .

[VitaminC]

That's a tough road, EarlGrey. A long time to pretend, deny yourself, and be working out that something is not what you would wish or need it to be.

I understand how sex can give us an illusion that things are ok between ourselves and the other; to have that "normality" - at least one thing.

I often said to friends at the start of my relationship how I thought of relationships in terms of a tripartite classification: emotional, intellectual, and physical. I was getting 2 out of 3 - I knew that really early on and decided I could fill the emotional needs through friends. Bad idea and it didn't work. I have to think to remember how I thought this could even work!

I haven't had time to read your previous posts, so don't know more of your story than you've revealed here just now. I'm hearing the "listening to other people" and, yea, that can be a problem. For whatever reason those other people were more loud than your own voice, it's good that you are hearing yourself more now.

I guess now might also be a good time to think about what your own interior landscape will be like without the sex. If it mainly filled the need of appearing (to yourself, to others) as kind of "normal" (maybe I misunderstood you?) - then if you remove that need, do you remove the need for that kind of physical intimacy.

Another point, if we teach ourselves to compartmentalize like that, is it more work to integrate all the bits again into a functioning and smoothly running whole?  I mean, if you have got used to setting your emotional needs aside, is it harder to trust someone with all the bits of yourself and all the different needs? I am working from the assumption that that is what we all ultimately want - that's my own psychological make-up, I know that. It obviously isn't necessary for everyone or there wouldn't be people who have open and polyamorous relationships and so on.

In general though, that last question is just a little thought experiment that I find worth conducting in my usual rushy-ahead sort of way. It doesn't need to be something you think about right now, obviously. One thing at a time

[vortex of confusion]

  VitaminC This is a fascinating thread for me. After I read the first few posts, I found myself thinking that I had intellectual intimacy with ex rather than any kind of emotional intimacy. He and I used to joke about having intellectual intercourse where we would sit and talk about philosophy, the meaning of life, or a number of other weighty topics. As long as it didn't involve any kind of feelings or emotions, things were fine. I think things started going south when I got tired of listening to him pontificate so much and started using logic to rip apart his philosophical ideas. I know. Not a good thing to do to maintain a relationship. Somewhere along the way, it went from the two of us discussing things to the two of us both trying to be right.

I am with   earlgrey. I knew something was off on our wedding night when he wanted to watch PPV porn instead of consummate our marriage. I could say all kinds of stuff about him and ask who does that sort of thing. Instead, I try to ask myself why the heck I didn't get an annulment in that first week. Not only did he watch PPV porn on our wedding night, I woke up the first morning in our apartment together to find him looking at porn.

Here it is 18 years and 4 kids later. Why the heck am I surprised that things have gone the way they did? The intellectual stimulation wasn't enough to sustain a relationship.

[VitaminC]

Wow, this is what happens when people really listen, ask genuinely curious questions without an agenda, and the responses are equally questing and curious. By "this" I mean this thread.

I started by thinking about the drama I was hooked on, to my values as a person, to emotional intimacy and what it means! I was just in the process of starting another thread to ask others about exactly this.

Thank you, Vortex. You've said it really well in your first paragraph. On our first date, my ex said that he wasn't much good at being a boyfriend, that he was useless at massages (for some reason that one example of 'boyfriendliness' was used or I remember) but that he would "massage [my] mind".

Haha, that is exactly what he did! He massaged my mind. He knew he could do that and that I wanted it. I accepted the intellectual intimacy in the place of the emotional, once I realised that it wasn't going to happen in the emotional dept.

I remember a friend of mine, after talking with him a couple of hours once, saying that as long as they were talking about general philosophical matters she felt she was in a Ferrari, but once the conversation switched to something that required some emotional insight, she felt like she was suddenly in a tractor.

It's funny, but he didn't seem to rate his sexual abilities very highly, which is so odd as he was ... .skillful, is the only word. But let's leave that aside for the minute.

I also got a bit weary of being pontificated at. And I know that in my case, that's got something to do with how I choose partners. I want to learn from them. I want to respect and even admire their intellect and be stimulated by it. If if transpires that they haven't got the mental gears (happened once or twice) I become contemptuous and completely lose interest. After a while though, sometimes, they like talking at you, it seems. That can be good for when we feel too lazy to produce our own thoughts but don't want to search the internet for a really high-calibre Ted talk or something. With my guy, you could just press a button practically and he'd be off, and I could drift in and out.

Shall I confess that I not only enjoyed sparring with him, learning from him, but also being the "teacher" in matters of the emotions? It's true. For a while he was in awe of my ability to understand people and their, to him, opaque motivations. 

Did you confuse the emotional and intellectual (and maybe) physical intimacies? Answer over on the other thread?  I'm just writing it - it's short

[earlgrey]

I guess now might also be a good time to think about what your own interior landscape will be like without the sex. If it mainly filled the need of appearing (to yourself, to others) as kind of "normal" (maybe I misunderstood you?) - then if you remove that need, do you remove the need for that kind of physical intimacy.

The sex I get is functional, it is a minor detail on the landscape.

Functional from a sex perspective, not (as I like to think) as a prop to appearing normal. Again my perspective.

I am married to a pwuB/NPD. Our world is 'normal' with those parameters. The sex aspect I believe gives my wife the feeling of a 'normal' r/s, like the house and the kids. "This is what happens in a r/s" she thinks. We do normal stuff, r/s works. Hubby likes sex Hubby's happy.

(Discussions to get beyond this superficial r/s do not happen. Period.)

For me our world is 'dysfunctional' and as soon as I can focus and stay focussed on my needs I'm out.

(Sounds straightforward but it's taking me time).

[earlgrey]

Emotional intimacy (EI)

The heart of the matter, and  I guess why some of us are here……emotional intimacy escapes us.

Getting onto a more personal perspective, I will try and give my understanding of EI, but please be patient as I have NO training, experience or education in the matter, probably never even encountered it  – and yet desire it with a passion. In short totally ill equipped. Want to climb Everest in my flip flops.

I thought I was on route (to EI) with my latest romantic adventure. We met…... consciously I saw an attractive women, gentle in nature, similar interests. But my heart was going boom boom boom. I couldn’t explain why , but I was motivated and didn’t chicken out….as can happen quite easily to me. With my new awareness, I now realise the boom boom boom was my ‘unconscious’ getting excited and waking up to something familiar. My mother, or at least her characteristics.

Before it all went pear shaped, I thought this boom boom boom was leading me into the romantic garden of eden, where ‘automatically’ emotional intimacy just enveloped you. How wrong I was. It has been a big learning experience (the positive side of things) but ultimately disappointing on the emotional intimacy front.

So with all this trial and error to learn from, emotional intimacy would now look to me like this.

Here I am……quite good and this, not very good at that, and a bit fragile in the middle…all wrapped up in a pretty sensitive outer layer.

You are the same but different.

All our traits are visible and shared and our partner thinks that’s cool. And it works the other way around too.

You end up feeling safe and at peace, and accepted…….probably only time I had all this was at a group therapy session!

Anyhow, the final bit is to tack on some kind of mutual attraction. My co-therapy friends were great but no romantic interest developed.

Just my two cents.

[VitaminC]

Want to climb Everest in my flip flops.

Oh, that's so beautifully put I am kind of crying and laughing at the same time, EarlGrey 

Do you know something? I think with this site you've (we've) reached Basecamp. And there's now a selection of more suitable footwear available to us. We've to try a bunch on for size and wear them in a little before starting the climb proper. Yes

I now realise the boom boom boom was my ‘unconscious’ getting excited and waking up to something familiar. My mother, or at least her characteristics.

Yes! That is another key! I realised it at the end, after reading Harville Hendrix' "Getting the Love You Want" that someone on this site recommended. There were some dark moments for me in realising how little and vulnerable and needy I still was. And how I was not trying to fix him or our relationship, as I'd thought, but my whole childhood!

It also confused me for a while, because I thought I needed him, the ex, to work that out - that's Hendrix' way in the book, as I understood it. He advocates staying in and revealing all the stuff to each other. He says listening to each others soft little voices of long ago, will allow a couple to move to a new level of intimacy, love, caring, understanding.   That may very well work, I am sure that it could, but not with a pwBPD. It took me another couple of months to fold the fact of mental illness in and see that I had unrealistic expectations of this person's abilities or, quite possibly, even desires. I assumed that he wanted the same as me - mutual trust and a new beginning in which we were both more emotionally honest and kind with each other's cores.   

I thought this boom boom boom was leading me into the romantic garden of eden, where ‘automatically’ emotional intimacy just enveloped you.

I hear you. I was the same.
Maybe it does happen that way sometimes. It did for me in my marriage, for instance, but not because of anything I actually chose to do. My ex was exceptionally emotionally tuned in and a natural engager. I see now how I gradually closed myself up towards the end because of my own sense of inadequacy and how I left him alone and isolated in the r/s. I finally, 8 years later, get what that must have been like for him.  Maybe I wanted to understand that too and kept at the r/s with pwBPD to experience and learn that from the other side. I thought that before too. So many motivations for doing anything... .

You are the same but different.

All our traits are visible and shared and our partner thinks that’s cool. And it works the other way around too.

You end up feeling safe and at peace, and accepted…….probably only time I had all this was at a group therapy session!

That's wonderful, actually. Acceptance is another word to add in there for me.

Thank you so much for those two cents of yours. You've a strong currency in your world.
Make sure get the right change when you pay in one currency and your partner uses another. It can get confusing, especially to me as I suck at math.

[earlgrey]

delighted you got my two cents  .

Have to say though, it was your thread that posed the questions!

Thank you.

I read HH book too, and had exactly the same question. Does his technique work with a pwBPD?

When I first got the book I was enthralled, and it seemed to get right to the heart of my romantic troubles.

So what did I do, I found a few pages that seemed appropriate and tried to read and discuss with myW.

Nah! it didn't work, in case you're wondering, she got angry and stormed out.

I even got her a copy, so she could find pages that she liked. It remains unread.

You also say... .

"It also confused me for a while, because I thought I needed him, the ex, to work that out - that's Hendrix' way in the book, as I understood it."

I'm with you. I cannot believe our subconscious is that smart to want to reconnct with a type of person that hurt us, to carry out repairs. I think there is simply an attraction of something/someone familiar, we do not even know what that is, but deep down it feels desirable.

I searched for years for that deep down feeling, mistakenly believing it to be 'love'.

And yep I found it Ok. 

[VitaminC]

Does his technique work with a pwBPD? [ referring to Harville Hendrix in "Getting the Love You Want"]

I don't see how it can work with a pwBPD, as the technique relies on both people having a more or less equal desire to empathise, to learn, to understand, and to connect deeply and stay connected at that deep level. I think that presupposes a more or less stable sense of self and an ability to be aware of and manage one's emotions.   From all I've read about BPD, the disorder is the opposite of that.  
So unless the pwBPD is highly functioning and aware and constantly working on themselves, I really do not see how this technique could work.

Some people on the "Improving" board seem to be managing the relationships, in particular I have found Jessica84's posts impressive and instructional for their level-headed and calm approach, really having internalized the Tools that are suggested here on the site. Here's one thread (though her comments are always insightful): https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295621.0

For those of us that need more from our partners, like the emotional connection we are talking about... .I think we stay hungry for more. And maybe that's because we've not fully "healed" ourselves yet, or maybe we just are like that, and that's ok too.

When I first got the book I was enthralled, and it seemed to get right to the heart of my romantic troubles.

... .I'm with you. I cannot believe our subconscious is that smart to want to reconnct with a type of person that hurt us, to carry out repairs. I think there is simply an attraction of something/someone familiar, we do not even know what that is, but deep down it feels desirable.

There have been many books written on the topic of our re-living and trying to repair our childhood wounds through romantic relationships in adulthood. One of the first I read that explicitly dealt with that was by John Cleese!

I don't know if it matters if our subconscious is smart enough to want us to repair ourselves that way. I don't think that's the point. In fact, I think the thing is that, yes, we are attracted by something that feels familiar and then we stay in a dynamic that somehow proves what we think anyway - based on our early formative experiences.

Whether we stay on and just re-live it or use it to learn, fix, get a different perspective, and ultimately heal, is what is in our control.

I can't remember if Hendrix makes claims for our subconscious as a fixer. I don't have a problem with looking at it that way either, though. In that case, my subconscious is a wise friend who's trying to help me. And since my subconscious is me, then I am my wise friend!

I searched for years for that deep down feeling, mistakenly believing it to be 'love'.

Recognizing when we are being truly loved and truly loving another is not always a no-brainer, it seems. You'd think it would be easy, but no.

Here's a total aside: The Ministry of Silly Walks - still brilliant :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w

[C.Stein]

I do think that there's something very special about sex. We are physical beings; our intelligence or humanity or consciousness, or whatever way we put it, is embodied . Of course sex is only one way we have of enjoying our physical existence and I agree that it has a sometimes overly emphasised place in our lives and it can confuse things. Especially, especially, because it's one of the expressions of our physical selves that is so closely linked to our emotions, which are closely linked to our thoughts, which is us - the singular human left at the end of the formula. Or chain, or whatever way we conceptualize this.

I see sex as being three different things.

• A biological imperative
• Recreational
• An expression of a deep emotional bond (this is where sex = expressing love not "making love"

Now sex can be one or all of these things at the same time.  I think where the problem comes in is where sex is used to simulate/generate an emotional bond where there really isn't one.  An example here with my relationship is I believe my ex sees sex as love ... .more sex = more love ... .less sex = less love.  She uses sex to help generate and "sustain" a fictitious bond (love) with another person.  She said many times she wasn't interested in "sex", she wanted to "make love".  Funny how that term "make love" is fitting here because that is exactly what she was doing ... .using sex to make love, not express love ... .not strengthen love ... .not share love.  Without the sex there was no love ... .which became painfully obvious.

The way I saw our relationship develop was the sex at first was recreational.  As my feelings developed the sex became more of an expression of love ... .to deepen and strengthen the emotional bond I had developed with her.  With my ex however I think she used the sex to create the emotional bond, intimacy and love instead of using it to strengthen and deepen an already existing emotional bond/intimacy that was present outside of the bedroom.  

As time went on and I became emotionally compromised as a result of her behavior/actions the sex became less about expressing love for me and more about fulfilling her physical and emotional needs.  It became empty for me because I did not feel emotionally safe with her.  I felt like I had become a tool and lost interest in "making love" or even recreational sex.  Without the constant sex her "love" for me evaporated into thin air because it was never real to begin with.  When you use sex to generate/create love or an emotional bond with someone you are building a house of mirrors on quick sand.

Now in a healthy relationship the love and bond, the emotional intimacy should exist without the sex.  When you have this then the sex truly takes on a different meaning.  This is when it becomes not only a physical act but an emotional one as well.

That's my take in brief.

[C.Stein]

I think there is simply an attraction of something/someone familiar, we do not even know what that is, but deep down it feels desirable.

I searched for years for that deep down feeling, mistakenly believing it to be 'love'.

And yep I found it Ok.

No mistake EG ... .you did find love ... .the love you felt was real.  The reason I think it felt so familiar was because it was your love that was returned.

[VitaminC]

I see sex as being three different things.

• A biological imperative
• Recreational
• An expression of a deep emotional bond (this is where sex = expressing love not "making love"

When you use sex to generate/create love or an emotional bond with someone you are building a house of mirrors on quick sand.

Now in a healthy relationship the love and bond, the emotional intimacy should exist without the sex.  When you have this then the sex truly takes on a different meaning.  This is when it becomes not only a physical act but an emotional one as well.

Amen.  And thank you for taking the time to express this so well.
I have to think on this, but cannot find anything in what you've said that I don't wholeheartedly agree with.

Back to my current puzzle about emotional intimacy... .