pretty sure I know the answer

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

A couple of months ago I met a woman. I actually found her online via Twitter, and she happened to live in the same city as me. I thought she was funny and bright, so I sent her a direct message saying I would like to meet her. She said she would like that, but noted that she would only be in the city for a few more weeks, because she was moving to go to school. I suppose if I were a sensible man I would have stopped right there, but I guess I managed to convince myself that I wasn't pursuing her romantically.

She gave me her number and we started texting. We bonded very quickly because we both have multiple mental-illness diagnoses. I have dysthymia (chronic depression) and anxiety, and she said she had depression, PTSD, and OCD. Soon we were texting constantly. There were "good morning" texts and "good night" texts.

She made me feel wonderful. In fact, that was one of the texts she sent me: "You're wonderful." She said I was handsome and she admired the fact that I seemed to be a good dad. (Child from a previous relationship.)

That was a major thing for her. She had severe abandonment issues due to her father's absence during her childhood. She said she had trauma from an abusive stepfather and she mentioned at least one abusive ex. Despite all this, she trusted me without question. I hadn't done anything to earn her trust, but she gave it to me freely. I felt comfortable sharing secrets with her. She made me feel understood and accepted.

At times she was very childlike and needy. Completely vulnerable; no walls up whatsoever. She said she wanted me to be all hers, forever. "I know you would take care of me."

Keep in mind that we are still just texting at this point. While we were bonding emotionally, she gradually shifted from mild flirtation ("You're handsome" to outright admissions of attraction ("I want to kiss you" to very explicit sexual messages describing in graphic detail the ways that she would please ":)addy" (i.e. me).

I was falling in love with her and I told her so (again, not the sort of thing I would normally do so soon).

To keep this story from getting too epic, I'll skip now to our "first date". It was 18 hours in a hotel room. Within minutes of meeting each other in person for the first time, we were having sex. We had a lot of sex, and it was every bit as good as she promised it would be.

And then I didn't hear from her for several days. When I finally got her to respond to me, she sent me a text saying that she had had a breakdown after our time together. She was feeling overwhelmed and panicked because she realized that she wasn't actually ready for all those emotions. She was fresh out of a long-term relationship and was still dealing with that heartbreak, and she needed to focus on herself and being healthy. She was very apologetic and assured me that it was not my fault and that she had loved getting to know me.

We had planned to continue seeing each other right up until it was time for her to go, but she wanted to cut it off completely, so we did. She said we could still communicate.

About a week after that I checked in with her and she told me that she had been in the hospital after a suicide attempt. I sent her a long, rambling text about how I loved her and accepted her unconditionally, and would always offer help and support if she needed it. Her only response to that (ever) came the next day: "I'm still trying to process what you said."

I saw her once more before she left. We said goodbye over coffee. It was very friendly and cordial. I mentioned that I would like to come and visit her, and she looked so sad I thought she might cry. She said she didn't want to hurt my feelings, and that I shouldn't have any expectations because she needed to work on herself. We parted with hugs and promises to remain friends.

She ignored several requests for her mailing address. For a while I could count on her to like my Facebook posts, but then that stopped. She continued to like my Instagram photos. And then suddenly last Monday she unfriended me on FB, and unfollowed me on Twitter and Instagram. She didn't block me on any of them. So I sent her a message on FB Messenger to ask her if I had done anything to hurt or offend her. She read it but did not respond. The next day I sent her one last message that said if she feels she is not in a place where any communication between us is possible, I would respect that. I also said that if it was okay with her, I would check in with her in a couple of months. Again, she read it but did not respond. I gave her an out, ut she didn't take it. And she left that channel of communication open when she could easily have blocked me.

My therapist insists that this woman has BPD, and she has advised me against ever contacting her again. She says even if I did establish a relationship with her, she's not healthy enough for one. She said I should work on myself first, and then seek out a relationship with an emotionally stable woman.

I don't know what to think. I don't know if she has BPD. Yes, she idealized me, and she clearly has a crippling fear of abandonment, plus suicidal impulses. She gave me her complete, unearned trust and provided me with fantasy-grade sex. But she never turned around and devalued me. She was only ever kind to me. She said cut our fling short because she saw that she had very serious issues to work on that precluded being in a relationship, which is very obviously the case.

BPD? Or is she behaving the way any heartbroken depressive woman would in the same situation? Of course she needs time to mend, and she probably doesn't want to be reminded of me every time she goes on social media, because I am a reminder of exactly the type of emotional involvement she can't handle right now. Putting distance between us makes sense.

I have very little invested compared to some of you, but the thing is, I'm still very much in love with her. I haven't seen her since June. I miss her. I want to reconnect with her and maybe attempt an LDR with her. There is a chance of all that happening if I give her enough time and space to heal, if she is non-BPD. If it's BPD, however, I have almost certainly lost her forever, because she has split me by now and any feelings she had for me have evaporated.

Should I can my losses and maintain NC indefinitely, or I can give her the benefit of the doubt and keep my promise to check in with her in two months. Kind of hoping to have my therapist's advice validated.

[Astronaut]

A couple of months ago I met a woman. I actually found her online via Twitter, and she happened to live in the same city as me. I thought she was funny and bright, so I sent her a direct message saying I would like to meet her. She said she would like that, but noted that she would only be in the city for a few more weeks, because she was moving to go to school. I suppose if I were a sensible man I would have stopped right there, but I guess I managed to convince myself that I wasn't pursuing her romantically.

She gave me her number and we started texting. We bonded very quickly because we both have multiple mental-illness diagnoses. I have dysthymia (chronic depression) and anxiety, and she said she had depression, PTSD, and OCD. Soon we were texting constantly. There were "good morning" texts and "good night" texts.

She made me feel wonderful. In fact, that was one of the texts she sent me: "You're wonderful." She said I was handsome and she admired the fact that I seemed to be a good dad. (Child from a previous relationship.)

That was a major thing for her. She had severe abandonment issues due to her father's absence during her childhood. She said she had trauma from an abusive stepfather and she mentioned at least one abusive ex. Despite all this, she trusted me without question. I hadn't done anything to earn her trust, but she gave it to me freely. I felt comfortable sharing secrets with her. She made me feel understood and accepted.

At times she was very childlike and needy. Completely vulnerable; no walls up whatsoever. She said she wanted me to be all hers, forever. "I know you would take care of me."

Keep in mind that we are still just texting at this point. While we were bonding emotionally, she gradually shifted from mild flirtation ("You're handsome" to outright admissions of attraction ("I want to kiss you" to very explicit sexual messages describing in graphic detail the ways that she would please ":)addy" (i.e. me).

I was falling in love with her and I told her so (again, not the sort of thing I would normally do so soon).

To keep this story from getting too epic, I'll skip now to our "first date". It was 18 hours in a hotel room. Within minutes of meeting each other in person for the first time, we were having sex. We had a lot of sex, and it was every bit as good as she promised it would be.

And then I didn't hear from her for several days. When I finally got her to respond to me, she sent me a text saying that she had had a breakdown after our time together. She was feeling overwhelmed and panicked because she realized that she wasn't actually ready for all those emotions. She was fresh out of a long-term relationship and was still dealing with that heartbreak, and she needed to focus on herself and being healthy. She was very apologetic and assured me that it was not my fault and that she had loved getting to know me.

We had planned to continue seeing each other right up until it was time for her to go, but she wanted to cut it off completely, so we did. She said we could still communicate.

About a week after that I checked in with her and she told me that she had been in the hospital after a suicide attempt. I sent her a long, rambling text about how I loved her and accepted her unconditionally, and would always offer help and support if she needed it. Her only response to that (ever) came the next day: "I'm still trying to process what you said."

I saw her once more before she left. We said goodbye over coffee. It was very friendly and cordial. I mentioned that I would like to come and visit her, and she looked so sad I thought she might cry. She said she didn't want to hurt my feelings, and that I shouldn't have any expectations because she needed to work on herself. We parted with hugs and promises to remain friends.

She ignored several requests for her mailing address. For a while I could count on her to like my Facebook posts, but then that stopped. She continued to like my Instagram photos. And then suddenly last Monday she unfriended me on FB, and unfollowed me on Twitter and Instagram. She didn't block me on any of them. So I sent her a message on FB Messenger to ask her if I had done anything to hurt or offend her. She read it but did not respond. The next day I sent her one last message that said if she feels she is not in a place where any communication between us is possible, I would respect that. I also said that if it was okay with her, I would check in with her in a couple of months. Again, she read it but did not respond. I gave her an out, ut she didn't take it. And she left that channel of communication open when she could easily have blocked me.

My therapist insists that this woman has BPD, and she has advised me against ever contacting her again. She says even if I did establish a relationship with her, she's not healthy enough for one. She said I should work on myself first, and then seek out a relationship with an emotionally stable woman.

I don't know what to think. I don't know if she has BPD. Yes, she idealized me, and she clearly has a crippling fear of abandonment, plus suicidal impulses. She gave me her complete, unearned trust and provided me with fantasy-grade sex. But she never turned around and devalued me. She was only ever kind to me. She said cut our fling short because she saw that she had very serious issues to work on that precluded being in a relationship, which is very obviously the case.

BPD? Or is she behaving the way any heartbroken depressive woman would in the same situation? Of course she needs time to mend, and she probably doesn't want to be reminded of me every time she goes on social media, because I am a reminder of exactly the type of emotional involvement she can't handle right now. Putting distance between us makes sense.

I have very little invested compared to some of you, but the thing is, I'm still very much in love with her. I haven't seen her since June. I miss her. I want to reconnect with her and maybe attempt an LDR with her. There is a chance of all that happening if I give her enough time and space to heal, if she is non-BPD. If it's BPD, however, I have almost certainly lost her forever, because she has split me by now and any feelings she had for me have evaporated.

Should I can my losses and maintain NC indefinitely, or I can give her the benefit of the doubt and keep my promise to check in with her in two months. Kind of hoping to have my therapist's advice validated.

[Astronaut]

Sorry this is so long.

[motherhen]

  Welcome! She certainly has many BPD characteristics and I would agree with your therapist on that. You didn't really have a chance to get devalued because she rejected you before you could reject her. I'm sorry for the emotional whiplash you suffered, it sounds quite painful.

[Mutt]

Hi Astronaut,



No worries. A r/s with a pwBPD is typical with the emotional intensity and idealization at the onset of the r/s. Showing our best side is not synonymous with BPD at the onset of the r/s but a pwBPD will quickly attach.

We're not doctors and can't give a diagnosis, I know that my T can't diagnose my ex because she not there but he said she has a mental illness of some sort. It sounds like you're doing some work on yourself. Its your choice to have a r/s or not, dud your T say that you can both be in a r/s and work on your own issues at the same time?

Some experts say that BPD is a shame based disorder. Shame is different than guilt, guilt is feeling you did something wrong, shame is feeling like there's something with you. You can probably both empathize for each other if you both suffer from mental illness' I think that she may be feeling shame for moving quickly. What did your T say?

[Astronaut]

Its your choice to have a r/s or not, dud your T say that you can both be in a r/s and work on your own issues at the same time?

She suggested that I do the work on myself first before I seek out a relationship. She also said that if I do pursue a relationship with this woman, it will most likely be a toxic relationship.

The main issue I am in therapy for is anxiety. This situation has put my anxiety through the roof and I am having a hard time sleeping.

As a side note, I have been in a relationship with a BPD woman before. It was a long-term relationship that lasted five years. This was many years ago. She was undiagnosed and in fact she denied having it. But when I met her she was extremely impulsive, she was binge drinking, sexually promiscuous with total strangers, and she was cutting herself with razor blades. Pretty much textbook indicators of BPD. Oddly enough, though, after we started dating, she stopped doing all of those things. She still had problems with intimacy, but it would come out in weird ways. She would sometimes cry during sex, for example.

[Astronaut]

I was wondering... .if I decide not to attempt resuming a relationship with her, is it okay to send her some info on BPD? If she has it, she likely has no idea. And she is very aware of her other problems, like PTSD, and is actually quite publicly outspoken about mental-health issues. So I think she would want to know and maybe look into DBT.

But I keep reading that it is inappropriate to do that.

[Astronaut]

Some experts say that BPD is a shame based disorder. Shame is different than guilt, guilt is feeling you did something wrong, shame is feeling like there's something with you. You can probably both empathize for each other if you both suffer from mental illness' I think that she may be feeling shame for moving quickly.

That had occurred to me even before the suggestion of BPD came up. I thought that she might be feeling that she had made herself too vulnerable to me, or that we had gone too far too soon with all the sexual stuff. I think we did go too far, both emotionally and physically, but we were in over our heads together, so I certainly don't blame her or feel that she has any reason to feel ashamed.

FWIW when we were together she did mention having a problem with feelings of guilt, but she didn't explain what she meant. I suspect she meant that she was plagued by the idea that all of the abandonment and abuse she had suffered were somehow her fault, that she had done something to deserve them. I think those were residual feelings from childhood. When you're a kid you can't see the big picture and have no context for what happens to you other than what you have learned. And if what you have learned is that your own wrongdoing results in punishment, you will naturally assume that any adult who hurts you is doing so to punish you for something you did.

I'm just speculating, of course.

[Skip]

Putting the mental health issues aside, you both have them at some level... .doesn't this sound like a women trying to heal a broken heart (from another relationship)?

She hoped you would be the answer, but it may have just conflicted her more... .that is a very normal human response.

There are ways to handle this.

What do you think?

PS. We have a lot of therapist members and we certainly respect your relationship with your therapist so I'm saying this with respect and it certainly can be shared. We have a lot of members reporting that there partner was identified as possible "BPD" by a therapist. That is not the same as diagnosing her as BPD - if she went to him for treatment, he may very well not diagnose her. His comments may really mean (1) that she has some of the behaviors of a person with BPD and (2) I can see she is hurting you, this is not a good for you.

[Astronaut]

Putting the mental health issues aside, you both have them at some level... .doesn't this sound like a women trying to heal a broken heart (from another relationship)?

Yes, that is absolutely the assumption I made, because that is exactly what she told me was the case, and I took her at her word. I didn't think of BPD until my therapist suggested it.

The therapist never claimed to be diagnosing someone she has never met. It was just an impression she had based on what I told her.

It's a real possibility, though. Some of her traits certainly fit.

[Skip]

that is exactly what she told me was the case, and I took her at her word.

I didn't think of BPD until my therapist suggested it.

Both, can certainly be true. You could be dealing with a person with traits borderline personality disorder who is struggling with heartbreak and reached out to you in a rebound.

Where do you go with that? Rebounds are hard. It's really difficult to tell what part was about you and what part was about her previous partner. Regardless, her heart is hurting and she's emotionally closed off. And you are falling in love with her.

Do you risk becoming a friend in trying to build from there? Do you step aside in a really gallant way so that when she's emotionally open she might contact you? Do you walk away? Do you try to push in?

What are you thinking?

[Mutt]

Hi Astronaut,

Skip asked you a lot of good questions. I think that it can be really hard when you're in a fork in the road, what do I do? Choose what feels right for you and you can take your time, there's no need to rough.

I wanted to touch on anxiety, did your T give you coping strategies? Does your T have training with  CBT?  
 

[Astronaut]

I have already promised to give her time, and she's not responding to me right now anyway. So there's no point trying to force some sort of answer out of her right now.

Also, even if at some point in the future she is open to reconnecting with me, we live 1,000 km apart. She's not coming back here in the near future because she's going to school there. And I am sort of stuck here because of my parental responsibilities. I would not have a problem going out there once a month and I have the means to do so, but a long-distance relationship with so long between visits might not appeal to her. On the other hand, between classes and working and the friends she has out there, she might be too busy for any other kind.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. I also need time, I guess. And maybe I'll find her easier to get over than I thought.

[Astronaut]

Mutt, my therapist's primary approach is to use a combination of talk therapy and EMDR. I just started going to her, so we haven't done any of the latter yet.

I have been using an IPhone app called Moodkit on my own. It's quite good. It uses concepts from CBT and has a bunch of other features. It's totally self-guided, though.

[Mutt]

   Great!  

[ForeverDad]

Telling a person with some BPD traits or behaviors can be very triggering to the person.  It can feel like an accusation.  It can trigger intense Denial and Blame-Shifting, especially if she is a person fitting a high-conflict profile.  Whether she would overreact, who knows, but it's a real possibility.

It's been noted that many therapists don't mention a diagnosis or 'label'.  If she hasn't been to see a therapist then that would be a good place for her to start.  However, you have had an intense but brief relationship, she may not listen to you because of the emotional baggage she may perceive.  BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships.  While you likely can't 'help' her, she may respond to an emotionally neutral trained professional such as a counselor or therapist.

Understand that if this is something like BPD then there are no quick fixes.  Times does heal or moderate some wounds but she probably has issues beyond the recent breakup she mentioned.  You can't fix her, she has to want to work on herself, and long term.  There can be recovery from BPD but recovery is usually measured in years, if there is recovery.

My Ex told me she had no relationship with her father, was abused by her step-father and rejected suitors who were macho.  Over the years her past seemed to overtake her and there was nothing I could do about it.  However, we had a child together and it hastened our marriage's implosion.  To this day a decade later, I can't hold a conversation with her, not even when I keep it just about parenting.

[Astronaut]

I know I can't fix her.

Thanks for your input, everyone. Outside of this forum I have found a few people who get it, but also others who don't understand why I would want to be with someone who has so many serious mental-health problems, or why I would have been attracted to her in the first place. But I think everyone here can relate to how intense the feelings can be when someone like this comes into your life. Sometimes it feels like being in love with fire. You can admire it from afar, and its warmth draws you in, but it will burn you if you get too close.

So... .maybe I will choose not to risk playing with fire.

[Astronaut]

However, we had a child together and it hastened our marriage's implosion.  To this day a decade later, I can't hold a conversation with her, not even when I keep it just about parenting.

I'm sorry to hear that. I am fortunate enough to have a close co-parenting relationship with the mother of my child. She also had abandonment and abuse trauma dating back to her childhood, but she never had BPD. She had PTSD and some dissociative stuff that she went into clinical treatment for and overcame.

[Astronaut]

My Ex told me she had no relationship with her father, was abused by her step-father and rejected suitors who were macho.

Interesting. Even in my brief time with the woman I'm talking about, i got the "You're not like most guys" thing.

[ForeverDad]

Looking back, I've concluded she didn't want a spouse who would not have been so accommodating.  Strange how she could talk about those who pursued her but I could never mention anyone I might have been interested in.

Maybe she saw you weren't the type to use her and drop her.  But notice... .she immediately dropped you.  One strong trait with BPD is fear of abandonment.  Yes, you weren't inclined to abandon her but she probably still has that fear and, as many others have done, she abandoned you before you could abandon her.  Hard to wrap your mind around that concept, right?

[Astronaut]

I have given myself until mid September to decide whether or not to contact her again. Definitely NC until then unless I hear from her first. That seems unlikely, but then again I wouldn't have predicted any of the things she's done since this whole thing began

[formflier]

 
Astronaut,

I'm glad that you have found this forum and you are taking active steps to work on you.  You've got me curious to go check out the app that you mentioned!   

I think a question has been raised, but not answered clearly.  A very important question.

"Why would you want to be with this particular person?"  I would hope you weave into your answer acknowledgment of the behaviors that you have witnessed/experienced with her and how those behaviors impact you.

Note:  There is no right or wrong answer to this question.  And you don't owe anyone else and answer, but I do think you owe yourself a clear answer.

Probably good to discuss this concept with your T as well.

Looking forward to hearing more from you.

FF

[Astronaut]

It's a good question. I guess I have to ask myself if the positive things I see in her are enough to balance out the potential risks of being involved with her, knowing full well that the more I do get involved with her the harder it will be to get myself out of it.

It's all hypothetical at this point anyway, since she could just be completely done with me anyway. (Which might be for the best.)

[formflier]

It's all hypothetical at this point anyway

Yes... .but you are really considering this as a possibility.  So worthwhile to sort this through, preferably with help of your T, to understand how you make decisions for yourself.

FF

[Astronaut]

If I do decide to contact her, I figure there are a few possible outcomes.

1. She continues to ignore me, in which case I give up.
2. She tells me she still isn't ready, in which case I take another step back to decide how to proceed.
3. She says she would like to resume contact, but only as friends.
4. She agrees to try reconnecting in a romantic way.
5. She respectfully tells me that a such a relationship is not possible between us, in which case I have no choice but to stop pursuing.
6. She lashes out at me, which would be a pretty clear indication that she has painted me black and most likely is BP. In which I case I will not pursue a relationship. Because honestly I don't need more stress in my life.

So I suppose I should be mentally prepared for all of the above possible responses. But I still haven't decided if I'm even going to contact her again. The thought of not trying kind of breaks my heart at the moment, but I might move past that.

[Skip]

It might help to step out of you own emotional world for a minute and examine this from a much different vantage point.

1. Can you flip that list and tell it to us from her point of view? This is really what you want to be thinking about (with respect to her).

2. Secondly, can you tell us, from what you know about the situation, what would be the healthiest thing for her to do and for you to recommend (not that you should, but if she was a friend what would you advise) and support.

3. Last, can you tell us, from what you know about the situation, what would be the healthiest thing (1-2) for you to do and what would not be healthy (1-2).

For example (looking at #2), I would tell my friend that she needs to mend her heart before she can open it to others. If she jumps into another relationship right away, she will either sabotage it by being emotionally unavailable or she will unconsciously substitute the new lover for the old lover to help heal and eventually realize that he was only a proxy - they you don't know him. Best thing is to stay away from pushy men. Find someone who is compassionate and mature and understands your hurt and wait for you to welcome him in, and not push you.

[Astronaut]

Oh, I totally agree with you. I think I have been getting ahead of myself with what I have posted here. When I said I would check in with her in a couple months, I really just meant to see if I could even reopen a dialogue with her at all. Pushing her into a relationship is not my intention.

Apart from giving her space, one of the benefits of my moratorium on contact is that it will give me time to approach her in a more even-keeled and less emotional way... .or to not do it at all, or to realize I need to wait even longer.

I do feel she was totally right to cut things off when she did. And I know she's in no place to be in a relationship right now. There's no time limit on heartbreak.

[Skip]

I also said that if it was okay with her, I would check in with her in a couple of months. Again, she read it but did not respond. I gave her an out, ut she didn't take it. And she left that channel of communication open when she could easily have blocked me.

So entertain her on Instagram... .get some positive light hearted vibes out there... .and let it all incubate... .

If she was trying to kill herself, that is a serious heartache. This is why I'm saying to recast your list from her perspective... .write down what might be in her mind right now. For example, is this about you or him?

[Astronaut]

To be honest I think it's largely about him (they were together for five years and were engaged, and then he cheated on her), and as for me... .I think she's trying to think about me as little as she can. She knows she got my hopes up and then dashed them. If I were her I wouldn't want to dwell on that either.

I know for certain that one of the roles I was filling was that of a distraction from the rest of her life, from the pain of her breakup and the sadness of leaving her friends and family and job behind. She might very well have moved me from the "distraction" category to the "mistake" category. And if I don't respect her space, I could end up in the "nuisance" folder.

[Astronaut]

So entertain her on Instagram... .

Not really possible since she unfollowed me.

To be fair, I unfriended her on FB back in June when I was freshly ditched and feeling like crap, and she graciously let me add her again, only to unfriend me five weeks later. So... .this is how it goes these days, I suppose.

[ForeverDad]

Consider various scenarios of the future.  What if you did get back together again?  And broke up again?  What impact would it have on her, on you?  That is a real risk, many pwBPD have cyclical patterns.  I think there was a song, breaking up only to make up?  Is that healthy for either of you?  Or would it be like riding an endless roller coaster?

Another scenario.  What if you had children with her?  Would the children have a healthy environment to grow up in and become reasonably normal adults, prepared for the world and healthy adult relationships?  What would happen if there was a final break up, what about the kids, custody and co-parenting?

There are no guarantees, not even for the best relationships.  So yes, at some point you do decide to take a step forward.  But you've seen some red flags, ponder them.