Positive Entitlement

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello,

I'm not sure if this should go here or on personal inventory, so please feel free to move it as you deem fit. =)

I was just reading through the Lessons page from the detaching board and a thread that blackandwhite shared called Positive Entitlement. Because of my FOO, the very word entitlement instantly dredges up negative feelings. "Only selfish people are "entitled" to anything."

My stbxh has done his fair share of damage, but all the initial damage that has carried on for a long time was by my parents, and to me, carries a lot more weight. Even now, my parents talk about the constant sacrifices they made for us and how it's implied that I shouldn't want anything for myself until after my son is grown because that's what they did. (Even though that isn't remotely true.) Comments about how parents nowadays are so selfish. I can agree with some, but not all. I don't think wanting some time to not go insane is selfish, although I don't ask for it, and it would only be like an hour or two at most if I did.

One of my sisters who has children in the last few months revealed to me that she has thought the same way, and it reinforces the knowledge that this thinking came from our parents. It's not just as parents, but as people. Like, in life in general we don't deserve to love ourselves or have nice things. (It took me a long time to realize the difference of loving yourself and being in love with yourself.)

I've been through all the stages and lessons for detaching, but this is the one that I'm stuck on, because it means that I'm worth something, even though I know I am on some level, and that I'm valuable, that what I say or do matters and I'm (gasp) allowed to want more out of life and even try to achieve it.

I don't believe everything that my parents tried to drill into my head and challenged everything that I didn't agree with, but somehow, the fact that I can't have positive entitlement is something I must've agreed with and I've lived my whole life this way.

God has used my son as a teaching tool for me a lot on my journey, and one thing is projecting my beliefs onto him and if I can't make them stick then why do I let them stick for me? Do I believe my son can't have positive entitlement? Uh, that would be HECK NO I sure don't. I think he deserves the world! (Of course I'm biased. =) ) So, if we're all equal and equally deserving, then why am I not allowing myself to believe that I can be happy and want things without feeling selfish and guilty? After all I've went through, learned and accepted, this alone seems to be an impossible thing for me. Why is it so hard? Does anyone else struggle with this?

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[purekalm]

Hello,

I'm not sure if this should go here or on personal inventory, so please feel free to move it as you deem fit. =)

I was just reading through the Lessons page from the detaching board and a thread that blackandwhite shared called Positive Entitlement. Because of my FOO, the very word entitlement instantly dredges up negative feelings. "Only selfish people are "entitled" to anything."

My stbxh has done his fair share of damage, but all the initial damage that has carried on for a long time was by my parents, and to me, carries a lot more weight. Even now, my parents talk about the constant sacrifices they made for us and how it's implied that I shouldn't want anything for myself until after my son is grown because that's what they did. (Even though that isn't remotely true.) Comments about how parents nowadays are so selfish. I can agree with some, but not all. I don't think wanting some time to not go insane is selfish, although I don't ask for it, and it would only be like an hour or two at most if I did.

One of my sisters who has children in the last few months revealed to me that she has thought the same way, and it reinforces the knowledge that this thinking came from our parents. It's not just as parents, but as people. Like, in life in general we don't deserve to love ourselves or have nice things. (It took me a long time to realize the difference of loving yourself and being in love with yourself.)

I've been through all the stages and lessons for detaching, but this is the one that I'm stuck on, because it means that I'm worth something, even though I know I am on some level, and that I'm valuable, that what I say or do matters and I'm (gasp) allowed to want more out of life and even try to achieve it.

I don't believe everything that my parents tried to drill into my head and challenged everything that I didn't agree with, but somehow, the fact that I can't have positive entitlement is something I must've agreed with and I've lived my whole life this way.

God has used my son as a teaching tool for me a lot on my journey, and one thing is projecting my beliefs onto him and if I can't make them stick then why do I let them stick for me? Do I believe my son can't have positive entitlement? Uh, that would be HECK NO I sure don't. I think he deserves the world! (Of course I'm biased. =) ) So, if we're all equal and equally deserving, then why am I not allowing myself to believe that I can be happy and want things without feeling selfish and guilty? After all I've went through, learned and accepted, this alone seems to be an impossible thing for me. Why is it so hard? Does anyone else struggle with this?

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[Notwendy]

PureKalm, I think I have struggled with this concept since I was a young teen and my mother described me as "selfish". I saw her as being self centered and didn't want to be like her. My father would do anything for her and so I role modeled after him. I wanted to help other people and be caring.

I also think positive entitlement was affected by how I was raised. Even if we don't believe everything our parents say to us, how they relate to us has an impact. Parents with NPD and I think BPD see children as an extension of them, something to meet their needs. We know that emotionally healthy parents seek to meet the needs of a child, until that child is able to take care of him/herself.

Young kids are naturally self centered. It's part of their development. Later they get a larger awareness of others and the world around them. But at first it's about them. They come into this world all about them. I'm hungry, thirsty, wet, want a toy. When a loving parent meets these needs, the child grows up feeling secure.

I know that my mother was unable to do this. The focus on my mother in my FOO made it hard for me to be "seen"for me. I felt I had to wear a mask with my FOO, and another one at school to keep the family secret. Nobody knew the real me, probably not even me, and when I spoke up about the dysfunction in my home, I was punished. My mother saw me through her eyes, and influenced my father.

By my early teens, I was aware of a sense of feeling undeserving -of anything. If I wanted something, it was likely that my mother would make sure I didn't get it to punish me. We had financial difficulties at some point, but my mother continued to spend lavishly on things she wanted. Asking for anything like a new dress might cause a fight in the house. It's a wonder I had any self esteem at all. If I did, that came from friends and doing well at school. I had none in terms of feeling unconditional love.

But my feeling of not deserving had a name to it, and eventually was told I was co-dependent. So was my father, but that was my normal role model, so I didn't see the problem with it. But here lies the key to developing positive entitlement.

There is a difference between caring and being co-dependent. Caring is wanting the best for another person but that has to include ourselves. If God made us all in His image, then diminishing our self worth is diminishing one of God's creations. ( or Higher Power or however one defines God for themselves). We don't have the right to do that. If we diminish ourselves, we don't give people the chance to treat us kindly and /or we enable their bad behavior. That isn't being loving. We are co-dependent for our own self interest, and while we may think it is being kind, it is actually self seeking.

Not having positive entitlement is actually being selfish. Hard to grasp but that behavior diminishes us and diminishes those around us. Not acknowledging our needs is not being authentic to ourselves or others.  Perhaps looking at it this way will help.

[purekalm]

Hello Notwendy,

Thanks for replying. I'm sorry you had to go through that. =( It's amazingly saddening to see how many of us and so many others have went through such traumatic and/or abusive childhoods.

I didn't want to be like either of my parents. I don't remember wanting to be like anyone growing up but Jesus, and felt like that was impossible. Yeah, I didn't have much hope for anything like a future. For some reason, just that slight chance that something would change, I clung to that.

I was put in the role of caretaker though for my parents and siblings and the very first time I even heard the word co-dependent was at a home that I went to for help. The problem was I didn't have any issues the other girls had, I was depressed and co-dependent among other things and they didn't know how to help me. I left after a month because I kind of languished there like everywhere. Even in a "christian" place  where it's their job to care, they didn't.

I thought when I got married it was finally my turn to get taken care of... .wow was I wrong. I became the caretaker for not only my family but now my husband and understandably now also my child. I lost what little of myself I had just started to find and slipped into a horrible spiral because I wanted to make everyone happy, at the expense of my own, because I thought that was what I should do. I had no good examples, I was searching for answers and solutions.

Even my Pastor at the time told me to get out of the way of Jesus so he could work on my family, and I was shocked when I realized I was actually in the way. She didn't understand the issue though and caused more harm than good trying to rip me away instead of help me understand that it was co-dependency and unhealthy. I felt responsible for everyone,I never thought that was wrong, I assumed it was caring. Until I picked up the book Boundaries, and then it all started coming together.

I struggle at times, but I no longer feel responsible for anyone but myself and my son because he obviously still needs me right now. I'm working on being able to have what I've always assumed that others naturally have, they are allowed to be happy and do things for themselves, that it's ok. I hadn't thought of it as being selfish or co-dependent, always so focused on the other's needs, but it's true. That was the way I felt confident in myself, if I had done a good job, if they were happy or doing well, or listened to the advice they asked for. Now, since I don't feel responsible for them, I don't feel like that, I'm not co-dependent. =) I've never wanted to be selfish like my parents, so I will continue to work on having positive entitlement for myself.

Thanks again!

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[Notwendy]

We have many similarities, growing up as caretakers for others and not feeling allowed to have imperfections or needs of our own. Jesus is a great role model, but I think we are not meant to be exactly like Jesus ( that would be impossible ) but to be exactly our authentic selves. We are all uniquely created and different from each other. Jesus taught faith and a moral code to follow, but I don't recall Jesus setting an expectation that we not be who we are.

Nor can we expect others to be at that level either. I've joined houses of worship, only to find them full of humans with issues of their own. Although I value religion and religious communities, I think that our relationship to God is a unique one, but we also need communities to carry out God's plan for us. Ironically, I think many people enter a religious community as sad and broken as we feel.

Our childhoods left us longing for someone to love us, take care of us, but for me - I also don't want too much of it. I saw how this effected my mother. My father took such good care of her, she didn't develop skills to stand on her own. I don't know if she was able to or not, but since he did take such care of her, I don't know if she had the chance to learn.  Although it was enviable, I knew that this kind of caretaking was not good for me and so rejected it from anyone.

I also became the caretaker in my own family, and like you just burned out emotionally. I get the concept of stepping out of the way of managing our loved ones feelings. Who am I to think I know what is best?

I think for us, self love feels selfish, but it could be a loving gift to yourself and your son. Maybe we need to be a little more "selfish".

[purekalm]

Notwendy,

Yes, I did figure that out. I was forced to go to a legalistic church growing up where a new pastor said that "God don't care how you get there, only when you get there. You know that? You get an F for effort. It only matters when you ace that test and you get an A. That's all he cares about. So get there, there's no excuses." Pretty much verbatim. I was like, well, then I'm screwed. It wasn't until later I learned a whole lot more and realized that He didn't expect me to be perfect, He expected me to do the best I can, the actual best I can and believe in Him and lean on Him. It's been really hard because I always felt I needed to earn my parent's favor, but I couldn't wrap my mind around the fact that He already loved me, unconditional love. It was an alien concept. I'm glad it isn't anymore.=)

No one should enter thinking to be perfect, but to be able to sympathize and understand each other's battles and lift each other up in the Lord and life. It's sad that no matter where you go it's hardly like that anymore. All about attendance and giving records. I stopped putting my name on those for that reason. The first time my pastor handed me a paper saying I could get taxes back on what I offered... .It feels sacrilegious to me, so I put it in without it. God can keep my record, no one else need know.

I didn't have that particular issue because I was already so independent and actually had to learn how to not hate men because of the way my dad treated me, sister and mom. I wanted to relax, to not have to do all the work and just my part. I knew I could love, I just didn't think that someone that CHOSE to love me and I wasn't a mistake like my parents said often, could treat me like he has. So, I stayed and lost myself trying to keep paddling, and realizing quickly I was just making us go in circles since he wasn't doing any work... .

I agree. I heard the story that airlines specifically tell mothers to put a mask on themselves first and then their children. When I first heard it, I was angry, like how does that make sense? Then it was pointed out that I could lose oxygen, and if I did and my son was left alone what would likely happen? It broke through my unhealthy thinking and made me realize that if I'm not taking good care of myself, then how do I expect to take good care of my son or anyone else? Just like in that scenario, I've deprived myself of what I let others have freely and I've suffered and unfortunately others have suffered too. It's hard, and I have to remind myself often, but I am learning to be "selfish" in the right ways. =)

Sincerely,

Purekalm