BPD as grandmother?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I recently came to the realization that my mom is BPD (as opposed to just clinically depressed and obnoxious as I thought/was told my whole life).

We just had a situation while she and my dad were visiting that resulted in my husband kicking her out of our house. Our kids are 6, 4, 2, and 5mo. Obviously this was very upsetting to the older ones because they think my mom is great. :-(

I told my dad (haven't told mom yet) that my condition for her coming back to my house ever again was an apology to me and my husband, and getting professional help to help her learn to at least keep her mouth shut.

So what do I do now? My poor babies will be down to just one grandparent (my dad, assuming he has enough cajones to come out to visit on his own). How do you handle the loss of a grandparent with your kids when they know said grandparent is still alive but just not visiting?

[APME_2008]

I recently came to the realization that my mom is BPD (as opposed to just clinically depressed and obnoxious as I thought/was told my whole life).

We just had a situation while she and my dad were visiting that resulted in my husband kicking her out of our house. Our kids are 6, 4, 2, and 5mo. Obviously this was very upsetting to the older ones because they think my mom is great. :-(

I told my dad (haven't told mom yet) that my condition for her coming back to my house ever again was an apology to me and my husband, and getting professional help to help her learn to at least keep her mouth shut.

So what do I do now? My poor babies will be down to just one grandparent (my dad, assuming he has enough cajones to come out to visit on his own). How do you handle the loss of a grandparent with your kids when they know said grandparent is still alive but just not visiting?

[Naughty Nibbler]

Welcome APME_2008:   

I'm so sorry about the situation with your mom.  You might find the information in the quote below helpful.  The address to the article is at the beginning of the post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/carolyn-hax-protecting-the-kids-when-parents-grandparents-are-estranged/2016/01/05/be7a7f70-b00d-11e5-b820-eea4d64be2a1_story.html

Just respond when you’re asked: “Gram and Gramps won’t be here this time, I’m sorry.” That might be all there is to it — kids let you know when they’re ready for more by asking you for more.

If one of your children does ask why, then you can say: “The adults have some things to work out before we all get together again.”

Even if hostility was extended to or was focused on your children, take care not to say anything a little person might interpret as “It’s our fault Grams can’t come.” Even words carefully chosen by adults to prevent this can sound very different when filtered through a child’s mind and worldview; instead of “Grams was unkind to you,” stick with “Grams was unkind.”

Again — this is only if your child’s curiosity warrants taking your explanation that far. A guide for talking to young kids is, don’t lie, don’t ignore, don’t dump everything in their laps. Stay within those three walls by heeding their curiosity and releasing small pieces of truth, followed by a pause to allow your child to respond. When the questions stop, that’s your signal that you’ve said enough. 

Hopefully, you will find the above info. and related article helpful.  I hope you mom gets some help.  I have an uBPD sister, who doesn't think she need therapy.   I'm virtually NC with her right now. 

Many of us grow up no grandparents, or maybe just one.  Sometime, there can be an opportunity to socialize with surrogates that can fill the role of grandparent (friends, church members, etc.).

Good thought your way.  Let us know how things work out.

 

[Turkish]

What did she say or do which resulted in getting her kicked out?  :)o you agree with your husband's decision? 

[Notwendy]

I told my dad (haven't told mom yet) that my condition for her coming back to my house ever again was an apology to me and my husband, and getting professional help to help her learn to at least keep her mouth shut.

This is a boundary, and for boundaries to be effective, one has to uphold them. If your H's reaction and your response were done in the heat of the moment, then this boundary can be renegotiated- but carefully, because the more you state a boundary and then back down, the less meaningful your words are.

My mom has BPD and she is a grandmother to my kids. She has had a relationship ( with boundaries) with them, until they have gotten older ( teens) and seen her behavior for themselves. It was not easy to explain that she has a mental illness. It felt very disloyal as I was not allowed to say anything about that in my FOO, but I felt that they deserved the truth and that being secretive was continuing the dysfunction. But I didn't have to get into that discussion until they were old enough to understand.

We didn't have issues when they were younger as she was very motivated to be on her best behavior with them when they were little. I didn't leave them alone with her. I think she knew that if she dysregulated with them, I would limit visits. It was when they were teens that I found her to be more of a concern. She has poor boundaries with them, and started to enlist them as caretakers. I wanted them to have normal teen lives- not feel responsible for her as I felt- and so then I set boundaries.

As would be predicted by the drama triangle- they saw it as a terrible attack on them. Although my father behaved rationally with me ( like yours did with you)- upsetting my mother in any way would lead him to rescue her- from me, and he would turn on me. So both of them got very angry at me. I felt like I was placed between the kids' welfare and their happiness. I chose the kids. That was my bottom line, but the price of my father's disapproval was emotionally tough for me. You may find that while your father seemed to understand you at the time, when he gets home, he deals with your mother and may side with her.

Fortunately by that time, the kids had seen her behavior and were developing boundaries of their own, so they understood the situation better than when they were younger.

I can only speak from my own family situation as the boundary to apologize and get help would not work in mine. I could set it, but the chances of my mother seeking help are slim to none. My father attempted to get her all kinds of help- none of it worked. There weren't much resources for BPD in her day, which may have been part of it, but the other is that, she doesn't really want to work at it. Even now, after seeing a doctor, she declares that doctor ineffective, doesn't comply with the treatment plan after one or two visits.

Eventually we did set the limit on their staying with us. We chose to visit them, as that way we could control the situation better- the time, the place, and leave if we needed to. Basically, it was better to visit for a short time and leave than to have a potential situation where we might want to ask them to leave.

Although you are concerned about what to say to the kids, and that this may upset them ( losing contact with grandparents) the other side of the coin is that you are demonstrating boundaries to them. This was something I didn't know how to do. What my kids saw was me being a doormat. That wasn't good for them. I wanted them to have strong boundaries and to know they can ( respectfully ) stick up for themselves and not let people bully them.

[GaGrl]

Your older children may already know something is "off" with their grandmother. I was aware quite early that my mother"s stepmother behaved different than my other grandmother but didn't know why. I was 10 when my father explained that she was not my biological grandmother and that she did, indeed, have problems. No one knew about BPD or NPD. I remember being enormously relieved that she wasn't actually blood-related!

The best thing my Dad did for my mother and our family was to draw and hold boundaries that my mother found difficult to do herself. We moved 200 miles away, and that allowed a family life with minimal contact with the step-grandmother.

You may find that the ability to have as normal a family life as possible is worth restricted contact with the grandparents.

[APME_2008]

What did she say or do which resulted in getting her kicked out?  :)o you agree with your husband's decision? 

It's kind of a long story, which just about requires my whole life story to put it into context, but to simplify:

My husband and I were kind of already on edge because she wouldn't let it go that I didn't want her using a fly swatter in my kitchen (gross... .and potentially disastrous as there was stuff out all over my island after a busy baptism weekend for baby #4). I told her every single day to just drop it and let it go, but she just has to always have the last word and would keep talking about it. (For a little background and irony, she is an animal hoarder and regular hoarder and her house doesn't exactly rival Martha Stewart's).

Anyway, some stuff went wrong as she was putting the kids to bed and my husband said something along the lines of "If you don't want to be here then go home." So that really set her off, and he came to try to talk to her and she said "I can see why your mother never comes to visit" (which is a whole other separate story) and when she said that, he said get out of my house. She then said "I would but you have all my money sitting in your house" (my parents paid cash for half our cost-to-build for our house, and over half of the cash came from "her" money from my grandparents. My parents are not hurting financially in any way, but she cannot handle money and has no idea.) So anyway, she packed up, got the kids riled up with "i'm sorry i'll never see you again" and things like that, and then my dad finally got home and took her to a hotel.

I support my husband's actions 100% and everything on our end was very calm. The boundaries I set were not in the heat of the moment. There is no way I can allow someone back in my house who thinks that kind of behavior is not their fault and OK. It is blowing her mind that I have been calling her on her nonsense since "moving out" 8 years ago.

I just hurt for my kids. Although I know in the long run, spending less time with her will be better for them. I think in the future if anything works out that she can visit again, her visits will just be supervised play/coloring/whatever, and no more caretaking of the kids like doing bedtime for me or something. (She gets offended if one of the kids wants me to come up for one more kiss goodnight or something because that makes her chopped liver of course.)

[Notwendy]

Wow, I can see how difficult this is, and it probably is not a bad idea to start putting boundaries on her caretaking, as she may not be able to handle this role well.

This was not so much an issue with us, as my mother didn't do much caretaking- not with her own kids, so she didn't wish to do it with the grandkids. But my father loved to read them stories, put them to bed, take them on outings and although she was part of the deal, it was fine that he did this. My kids were very close to him and I am glad for that.

The conversations that went on in this incident just would not have happened. I was not allowed to speak up to her, especially not in front of my father. Visits were mostly him doing things with the kids, she was part of the deal and we all WOE with her, allowing her to do whatever she wanted to do in order to keep the peace. But her visits were more like having an extra child along than a parent. It was mostly about her needs, along with the kids.

Once they were older, visits were still about her. Please do this for me, listen to me. She'd want to take one of them off to "chat" as if they were BFF's- that meant they were there to support her emotionally. Then, she'd ask them to do things- take her trash out, run the errand. My kind hearted kids would be glad to help a grandparent, but this was more than help. I didn't want them parentified. That was my role at their age, but it wasn't going to be theirs.

Boundaries in my FOO were not allowed. As far as mom was concerned, she did what she wanted and we were not to stand in her way. I think this was the first time anyone in our FOO set boundaries on the relationship with her and my kids.

I do not hurt for them. I showed them something different from the way I was raised. I showed them boundaries. While I felt that nobody stood up to her for me as a kid, my kids know I stood up for them. Was there sadness? For me, certainly, as I didn't want to face my father's disapproval. But I do not regret that I stood up for my kids. This is what you are doing, even if it is difficult.  

Money is a control issue with my mother. Any financial gift from her has strings attached. While it was a kind thing for your parents to help with your house, her financial investment to her may feel like an entitlement. I found it best to break from any financial ties to my parents, this includes material ones as well. Yes, I know that the money came from your grandparents, but my mother considered anything given to me as hers. My father supported the family, but he couldn't give me any money without her permission. Although it is an unrealistic idea, one of my childhood fantasies was to pay them back for any money they ever spent on me. I know that's childish, and not realistic, but this is how I felt as a kid.

[APME_2008]

I don't have much issue over the money thing, just that it is important to me that my dad knows I am grateful for their financial help over the years, despite what is going on with my mom. I think he does, so not TOO worried about it.

I am just trying to work through what kind of relationship I am willing to allow her with my kids I guess. I'm not sure what the better option is... .either no contact, or allowing her to come visit (staying in a hotel) and just come over during the days to do stuff with the kids for a few days? On the one hand, I want my kids to have a relationship with their grandmother, but on the other hand, as they get older and start to realize that she sucks, I don't want them to feel obligation and guilt about visiting with her and stuff.

Does anyone else have experiences to share having gone through this from having little kids til teenagers?

[Needless2say]

Yes, I do have experience from babies through teen years with my children.  I didn't know any better because I had live this my whole life.  I was in my late 40's when I finally saw what was going on.  Early on with the kids my uBPD Mom and uBPD sister were allowed full contact with my kids.  It was a constant I couldn't do anything right, they knew it all and I knew nothing.  Things change when I learned that sis had been giving my kid with milk allergies ice cream.  I couldn't believe how sick she got and questioned my older kid. 

Mom always played favorites.  Since I was her favorite most of the time, it was not a big issue for me until I saw the hurt caused by favoring my youngest child vs my oldest.  She would 'play tricks' on the older one.  Mean things like pretend she wasn't getting anything for Christmas while giving the younger one $100.  That is when I put my foot down and began enforcing boundaries.  If you give to one, you must be fair with the other or give nothing at all.  Of course she didn't follow my wishes so when she gave little one $100 for her birthday and big one $20, I would give little one $20 and we would do something fun with the entire family for the $80 and then I would tell Mom about it.  She didn't like it when things didn't go her way 100% of the time, so she finally got the message and started being fair.

There was a period of time where my oldest refused to visit my Mom and I would say that happened from 12-18.  She would go occasionally on her Birthday or Mother's Day, but monthly visits she would stay home.  When the little one got old enough to 'get' what went on with Grandma, it bothered her more than the older one.  She stopped going also.  Of course I would catch it from my sister whose kids were there all the time.  I made it clear her opinion didn't matter when it came to my kids. 

When Mom's end was coming near, we all knew it.  She was old and frail.  She went into a nursing home.  I visited every other day and the kids started going with me.  They grew closer than ever with my Mom.  She never apologized directly to them, but apologized to me many times for hurting me and them.  In the end all was forgiven and it was great but I don't see that happening in all situations with other people. 

There were of course certain rules: If either Mom or my sister put me or my husband down in front of our kids, we were out of there and it would be a long time before we visited again.  I knew we'd never, ever got an apology so we didn't look for one. 

Mom was not allowed to talk down other family members in front of my kids.  If she started on my sister in law she would be shut down immediately. 

After the ice cream incident neither were allowed to babysit the kids.  They couldn't be trusted.  Neither one respected the allergies and it is kind of hard for a 10 year old to stand up to an adult for their sibling.

[Fie]

Hi  

I think I can resonate with what the others already told you, that it's important for your children to see that you have  boundaries. To have this role model, they willl realize that they can have them, too.
I am a child  of a uBPDmum, and I have  an 8 year old daughter myself. We are LC with my parents. Although at times I do feel guilty about it, I  am starting to believe it's better to not have a grandparent, than an abusive  one. Of course as a child of BPD, I never learned to have boundaries. Maybe that's why it's still difficult to have them now. But it is something  I am determined to teach my kid.
One other thing I think is important, that you tell your children that it's not their fault that grandma does not visit. It's like with a divorce : children always think that everything is their fault - being children, they think the world revolves around them. In my case, I just told my daughter that the behavior of grandma is wrong. That something is not wired correctly. That may seem blunt, but I know how much damage the denial of the dysfunction in my FOO did to me. And I don't want that to happen with my daughter.  
The only thing I don't do is degrading my mum. I will always be careful to not talk bad about her. I tell my child that it's partly understandable that grandma acts in such a way, because of her bad childhood, but that on the other hand, everyone is responsable   for his own behavior. Although my daughter is only 8, she understands perfectly well. She of course would  like to have more loving grandparents. But the situation is what it is, and I have a happy child nonetheless.