Progress

[Depression = 72% of members]

I had really hoped that by the time that I needed to start a new thread that I'd be moving to the "improving" board, but we're just not there yet.

It seems that one of the biggest hurdles to our reconciliation is the fact that my other ex, the one that I reached out to for support during my relationship with my x named me the executor and one of the beneficiaries of her will. I'll inherit a modest sum of money if she dies before me. My x hates that. She views it as a tie that binds the other ex and me.

I know that is my x's issue and that there is nothing that I can do about it. I can't force someone to change her will. I've written, and copied my x, telling her that I won't serve as her executor, etc. But, that isn't good enough for my x. Until the other ex dies, there's absolutely nothing that I can do about this situation. When the will is probated, then I can refuse to serve and turn down the bequest, but until that happens, or my other ex decides to take me out of the will, there's nothing I can do.

It saddens me that something that is ultimately out of my control is keeping us and will keep us apart.

[Meili]

I had really hoped that by the time that I needed to start a new thread that I'd be moving to the "improving" board, but we're just not there yet.

It seems that one of the biggest hurdles to our reconciliation is the fact that my other ex, the one that I reached out to for support during my relationship with my x named me the executor and one of the beneficiaries of her will. I'll inherit a modest sum of money if she dies before me. My x hates that. She views it as a tie that binds the other ex and me.

I know that is my x's issue and that there is nothing that I can do about it. I can't force someone to change her will. I've written, and copied my x, telling her that I won't serve as her executor, etc. But, that isn't good enough for my x. Until the other ex dies, there's absolutely nothing that I can do about this situation. When the will is probated, then I can refuse to serve and turn down the bequest, but until that happens, or my other ex decides to take me out of the will, there's nothing I can do.

It saddens me that something that is ultimately out of my control is keeping us and will keep us apart.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[schwing]

Hi Meili,

I'll inherit a modest sum of money if she dies before me. My x hates that. She views it as a tie that binds the other ex and me.
I know that is my x's issue and that there is nothing that I can do about it. I can't force someone to change her will.

Consider that this situation with your other ex's will is not the cause of your x's "frantic efforts to avoid real of imagined abandonment" but rather only the lightning rod for feelings that are already there. If/when you have your other ex's will changed, her disordered feelings might not abate; perhaps they will only find a new lightning rod?

I've written, and copied my x, telling her that I won't serve as her executor, etc. But, that isn't good enough for my x. Until the other ex dies, there's absolutely nothing that I can do about this situation.

I would argue that even *after* your other ex dies, there is still nothing you can do about your x's feelings. She will perceive that you can still "abandon" her over a deceased woman, because her disordered feelings dictates that she will continue to have these feelings *regardless* of your action or inaction.

When the will is probated, then I can refuse to serve and turn down the bequest, but until that happens, or my other ex decides to take me out of the will, there's nothing I can do.

This being the case, why should you be persuaded into doing something that does not serve (or even hurts) your interests?

It saddens me that something that is ultimately out of my control is keeping us and will keep us apart.

Yes. Something that is ultimately out of your control is keeping you apart but it is not necessarily this will.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Meili]

Thank you for the reminder schwing!

I was definitely focusing on the words and not what she was trying to convey.

Our morning started out well. There were some loving text message. We were making plans for a night out. She told me that my patience through all of this was sweet and loving.

Then her mother contacted her with problems in their family dealing with her abusive brother and his kids. We dealt with that together as much as we could. She thanked me for my help and I thanked her for trusting me enough to do so. She told me that I'm the only one that she'd trust in this situation.

Then things started to go downhill.

Looking at the whole of it, I can see where the intimate feelings and stress probably triggered the rest.

The whole thing concluded with my telling her that the thing with the will is out of my control. She can either accept it or not. I have no control over that either. I should have started there, but didn't think of it.

I will note that throughout the whole discussion, she reassured me several times that we are ok and nothing has really changed for us. That was pretty cool of her to do. She's still trying to decide if she can deal with her fears that I will abandon her for another woman.

[Meili]

I want to brag on my x for a minute... .

I know that a lot of negativity gets posted on these boards; so, I want to post about a good interaction.

Last night, I became very insecure about everything that has been going on over the past few weeks with my x and the fact that she isn't ready to let people know that we're talking and spending time together or whatever. I ended up forgetting everything that I've learned here and we got into an argument. I was triggered, she got triggered, it got bad.

I apologized to her this morning and explained what was going on inside of me. She apologized to me for handling it poorly, and gave me some reassurances. The reminder that we aren't a couple kind of hurt a bit, but it's true; we aren't.

Rather than just continuing to be upset with me, she was very sweet when we talked. Actually addressing the underlying issue that started the fight is a new thing for us too. I thank her for helping me do that.

She's been making some really good changes in the way that she deals with me and us. I would love to say that it is the result of my applying what I've learned here to make her feel more safe and comfortable, but I can't take the credit for this one. Her showing me love and respect is all hers.

I still wish that she was at the point that she wants to be a couple again, but that is out of my control. She's been very honest all along that she may never get to that point. We have each done a lot of damage to the other and the relationship. Last night was a painful replay of what happened to us in the past. I suppose that it's a good thing that we both recognize what happened and how we could have handled it differently, and let the other know. The waiting is just hard.

[schwing]

Last night, I became very insecure about everything that has been going on over the past few weeks with my x and the fact that she isn't ready to let people know that we're talking and spending time together or whatever. I ended up forgetting everything that I've learned here and we got into an argument. I was triggered, she got triggered, it got bad.

What is the issue with letting people know "that [you're] talking and spending time together"?
Are you being asked to not talk to other people about your interactions?  And why?
Is there a concern with gossiping?

I apologized to her this morning and explained what was going on inside of me. She apologized to me for handling it poorly, and gave me some reassurances. The reminder that we aren't a couple kind of hurt a bit, but it's true; we aren't.

So my understanding is that you want to be a couple and she isn't ready for that. Perhaps she'll be ready for that later. Perhaps not?

Are you deferring your needs in this situation? If you would like to be in a position where you can be investing in a relationship that has the potential to develop into courtship, do you need to necessarily be limited to this one relationship?

If you are not a couple, are you free to date other women?

I still wish that she was at the point that she wants to be a couple again, but that is out of my control.

My thought is that, if you didn't keep your eggs all in one basket, maybe it would be less difficult for you to continue to cultivate your relationship with her?

The waiting is just hard.

Don't focus on the waiting.  Focus on something new?

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Meili]

What is the issue with letting people know "that [you're] talking and spending time together"?
Are you being asked to not talk to other people about your interactions?  And why?
Is there a concern with gossiping?

It is about letting a specific group of people know. The girl that my x assaulted has started trouble at a place where my x is a vendor. It is also the place where her exbf (my replacement) works. So, my x is afraid that it will bring drama and gossip into her life and cause her problems. Given the group of people, I can completely see that it would. Alternatively, the exbf really isn't an ex at this point.

So my understanding is that you want to be a couple and she isn't ready for that. Perhaps she'll be ready for that later. Perhaps not?

Correct. Although, we act like a couple a lot of the time.

Are you deferring your needs in this situation? If you would like to be in a position where you can be investing in a relationship that has the potential to develop into courtship, do you need to necessarily be limited to this one relationship?

If you are not a couple, are you free to date other women?

Yes, I am deferring some of my needs for the time being. I am doing so because so many of my other needs are being met.

No, I'm not free to date other women if I want to have a chance with her. She's made that really clear.

My thought is that, if you didn't keep your eggs all in one basket, maybe it would be less difficult for you to continue to cultivate your relationship with her?

Not doing so would make it impossible. But, we must remember that I betrayed her with another woman once, so she's afraid that I will do it again. While I know that since we aren't a couple that I wouldn't actually be betraying her because there is no relationship, I also know that she would view it as a betrayal.

Don't focus on the waiting.  Focus on something new?

I need to do that. It's hard switching gears again after almost constant contact for a week, talking about having a vacation with her in a few weeks, talking about doing things together, etc. I know that I need to reset again and do my own thing while she does hers.

Again, thanks for the reminders!

[Meili]

More bragging about my x (because I can!)... .

She has been extraordinarily sweet, caring, considerate, and loving since yesterday. And, don't think that she's idealizing me either. She's being open and honest about her feelings. We've had some really good interactions.

It feels very strange to me, and actually makes me quite nervous because of my FOO, to receive this type of treatment. I'm not used to someone actually showing me that I matter and that I'm important. Being able to vocalize my concerns and insecurities without it turning into an argument is really nice. And, it isn't like she's acting like I'm the only thing that matters in the world either, so it seems very real.

Anyway, I have shared many bad things, so I thought that I'd share the good as well.

[JJacks0]

Glad to hear things are going well for you.  You've been very helpful me to me the past few days.

Hope things keep looking up!

[foggydew]

That sounds really rewarding, Meili. You seem to have found a good way to reassure her and let her stay in touch with her emotions without the BPD kicking in. I do hope it continues like that. You have worked hard enough for it!

[Meili]

Thank you both. For whatever reason, I woke with doubts this morning. I can assume that it is the years of programming from my FOO (it almost always is), and my own impatience. So many wonderful things have been happening; I need to stay focused on those, myself, and making sure that my needs are being met.

I now have to figure out how to meet the needs that she can't meet right now. It looks like this is where the hard work begins.

[patientandclear]

I've not been asking this question because i hate to introduce negativity in what is a really positive outlook, and I admire your in-the-momentness, but: is she still seeing the other guy? I ask this because my ex is fantastically open and loving with when he's seeing someone else (and frankly, in our case, as long as he knows he CAN see someone else, which in the past has proven a non-theoretical option). He's like the ultimate triangulator. He can invest in the r/ship when all his eggs are not in that basket. I have to bear in mind that the same thing is true of his other r/ships--my presence in his life seems to make it easier for him to go deeper with other women. It's like he divides his intimacy ration, allocates it btwn two or more people, and thus guards against loss, risk, and the other threats intimacy seems to pose to him.

Some things you wrote a few posts ago made me wonder whether the non-resolution of the "status" of this ("we are not a couple" and the non-disclosure of it to others and your uncertainty re what's going on with the other guy are bothering you and you're trying to stuff that down. Is that what you're referring to re meeting other needs?

Far, far be it from me to say that an arrangement that is vague as to status and involves permanent triangulation is not worth the investment. I did it for a long time and still have some anxiety about my choice to discontinue that arrangement. I did discontinue it because after a lot of soul searching I realized it was making me feel like crap to have this amazing loving r/ship and then have him professing love to others. And not acknowledging our r/ship openly and even to me, denying its "status." But that is a super personal reaction. Others may be able to make their peace with this, and if you feel you can (if my description is accurate), more power to you.

Apologies if this is resolved in your mind and this is a deviation from the direction in which you want to take the thread. Just wondered if the feelings you are posting about this am are coming from somewhere more significant than "she won't even want to go to concerts with me so I'll need to do that with others," or unmet needs at that level.

[Meili]

To my knowledge, there are no other men in her life other than male friends that she has no romantic interest in. Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure, so I just have to trust her on this.

You are correct. One of the big needs is the lack of the label and commitment. Before I realized that I was deserving and worthy of love, a true, committed love, I would have been ok with this. This is a relatively new change for me that she probably isn't actually aware of.

But, there are other needs that I must have met, like making me a priority - if not the priority.

Some secondary needs like affection and touch are also missing.

I know that she needs time and space to work on her stuff, but I also know that I'm deserving too. Sooner or later one of us is going to have to make a choice to move us off center.

Maybe I'm expecting too much too soon. I realize that our working on reconciling is far newer for her than it is for me.

[patientandclear]

The affirmation that you want and are worthy of true, committed, acknowledged love is super important. That is a great way of phrasing the shift in my own sense of self that ultimately led me to set boundaries that my BPDex can't (so far) work with.

Not saying the woman in your life is like or will behave like my ex. But my fallacy lay in thinking that because he could build intimacy with me in a non-committed unacknowledged context, that that could or would grow into something acknowledged or committed. With us it has been the opposite: the unacknowledged/uncommitted quality so far appears essential for him to invest intimately with me. (For me even that might be fine if seeing others didn't come with the uncommitted territory, but it does. Even if it didn't, the lack of acknowledgement itself or active denial of the nature of the r/ship over time -- "we are not a couple" whenever I needed to discuss something with him that flowed from the fact that we WERE a de facto couple, like you're saying -- ate at me.)

I understand you are taking it slow, exploring and being patient. Just flagging that I'm not sure some of these needs ARE things you can meet by yourself, because unless you change your values, you're saying you have a (healthy and understandable) need for the nature of the r/ship not to be denied or buried by your person.

[Meili]

I agree, some (if not most) are not needs that I can meet for myself. The fact that I have needs and I'm worthy of having them met is a fairly new concept for me though, so I'm still working through all of it.

I won't stay in this holding pattern indefinitely, that much I know. I owe it to myself not to do that.

[Meili]

Things have been progressing, slowly, but progressing none-the-less.

My x has been making efforts to make sure that more of my needs are being met, and I've been trying to be consistent, open, communicative (in a healthy way), and to provide her with a sense of safety and security with me.

It seems like the only times that things take a turn for the worse lately is when she feels that I'm pressuring her. We were talking this morning and it happened. I had no idea that certain things that I said were pressuring. In my mind they weren't, but in hers they are.

A quick analysis of our recent conversations and how they change from light and happy to more how things used to be reveals that every time that the conversation turns to one about the r/s (past or future), she gets overwhelmed. Simple solution then, I need not to make any mention of anything that might resemble a discussion about "us."

I know not to instigate a discussion about our past r/s or a possible future one. But, what seems to be happening is that when I even mention certain things, it triggers the same overwhelming feelings for her and she views it as my pressuring for immediate reconciliation. This even happens when I'm talking about something in the future.

It never occurred to me that my talking about something "if/when" she's ready to do something that didn't actually have to do with us as a couple would be taken that way. She did attempt to explain to me how this plays out in her mind. I don't actually understand it, but I accept that it does.

Hopefully today's snafu won't create too much of a ripple effect for her.

[schwing]

Hi Meili,

My x has been making efforts to make sure that more of my needs are being met, and I've been trying to be consistent, open, communicative (in a healthy way), and to provide her with a sense of safety and security with me.

It seems like the only times that things take a turn for the worse lately is when she feels that I'm pressuring her. We were talking this morning and it happened. I had no idea that certain things that I said were pressuring. In my mind they weren't, but in hers they are.

Don't forget that you are not only juggling with keeping her issues managed, but you are also juggling with your own.  Depending on the amount of time you are spending with her, and the nature of that time spent, you may be becoming more attached to her (and thus rely on her) than you realize.

It is hard enough to keep track on one's own heart in a developing relationship, you are monitoring two, and two with very different behaviors.

A quick analysis of our recent conversations and how they change from light and happy to more how things used to be reveals that every time that the conversation turns to one about the r/s (past or future), she gets overwhelmed. Simple solution then, I need not to make any mention of anything that might resemble a discussion about "us."

I know not to instigate a discussion about our past r/s or a possible future one. But, what seems to be happening is that when I even mention certain things, it triggers the same overwhelming feelings for her and she views it as my pressuring for immediate reconciliation. This even happens when I'm talking about something in the future.

I wonder if she wants to believe that your relationship can truly begin anew (from scratch) when frankly, I don't think it can. You have history with her. And while she might be able to disconnect from that history, I don't think you can. I don't see this as your fault or her fault but as an incompatibility due to your different psyches (i.e. non and BPD).

In a fair relationship, both parties can make sacrifices to accommodate. I don't think she can make very many.

It never occurred to me that my talking about something "if/when" she's ready to do something that didn't actually have to do with us as a couple would be taken that way. She did attempt to explain to me how this plays out in her mind. I don't actually understand it, but I accept that it does.

You'll need to decide if at some point, you lose more than you gain. Again, one of my suggestions is not to put all your eggs in this basket. It helps both of you if you can maintain sufficient distance.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Meili]

Don't forget that you are not only juggling with keeping her issues managed, but you are also juggling with your own.  Depending on the amount of time you are spending with her, and the nature of that time spent, you may be becoming more attached to her (and thus rely on her) than you realize.

It is hard enough to keep track on one's own heart in a developing relationship, you are monitoring two, and two with very different behaviors.

This is very true, I have become more attached than I'm comfortable with right now. I did get wrapped up in all of the loving, nice treatment that she gives to me and our making plans for future events.

I've begun to make slight changes to get things back to where I need them to be with myself. I'm starting to detach a bit again, and looking for things to do that don't involve her. A form of not putting all my eggs in one basket that doesn't involve other women and doesn't cause more problems. It also allows for distance between us.

It's really easy to fall back into old habits though. I'll have to talk to my therapist about all of this and see if I can figure out why I get sucked back in so easily.

I wonder if she wants to believe that your relationship can truly begin anew (from scratch) when frankly, I don't think it can. You have history with her. And while she might be able to disconnect from that history, I don't think you can. I don't see this as your fault or her fault but as an incompatibility due to your different psyches (i.e. non and BPD).

No, she does not think that it can be a new r/s. That's the thing that holds her back. She cannot disconnect from the history. There are too many trust and abandonment issues there for her. She's just waiting for me to walk away from her again or do some of the things that I used to do when we were fighting.

[Meili]

I know that I normally don't post about the day to day things in whatever it is that is going on between my x and me, but I felt this one was important to share with others who are going through similar experiences.

As you may know, my x and I talk a lot about reconciling. At present, she doesn't want any of her friends (who are all males) to know about that and "hides" our involvement from them.

One of her male friends invited her on a week-long trip to Bonaire. She would have to pay for nothing. I suggested that I meet the guy first to understand that there's nothing going on there. I also suggested that she explain to him what's going on between us and ask if I could go with. Neither was acceptable to her.

I told her that she's welcome to go, but I'm can't try to work something out with someone who will continue to disrespect me like that. In fact, if going was that important to her, she should go.

The boundary was established. I went through the normal accusations about how controlling I am. How I won't allow her to do anything. How I won't allow her to have friends. Etc. I held firm to my boundary.

She even told me that there was no chance of us reconciling now and cancelled this weekend's camping trip that we had planned. I still held fast.

She accused me of making ultimatums for enforcing my boundaries. I felt everything that she wanted me to feel for doing so; I felt guilt, I felt shame, I felt bad for her. Yet, I knew that if I didn't stand behind my boundary that was the end of everything that I have worked on and I'd become a doormat again.

She even went so far as to tell me that if I didn't remove the boundary that there was no chance of reconciling. I didn't budge.

It did hurt. I did feel like a jerk and that I was being controlling. I felt like a small, little, insecure man. I've been conditioned to respond this way. Yet, still I maintained.

In the end, she's extremely angry with me. She's still pushing that boundary. I'm still not moving. But, she's still talking about reconciliation and us going camping this weekend also. I have little hope that either will happen at this point, but that may be because this is the first significant boundary that we've come up against.

The important thing is that I protected myself and my needs and the world didn't come to a screeching halt. I know that many of us on these boards are terrified of establishing boundaries. We are afraid that the person we love will walk away when faced with having to respect us. That's just because we've been conditioned to believe that this is true.

The simple reality behind that is that if the other people in our lives cannot respect our boundaries, then they do not respect us. If they do not respect us we have taught them that is acceptable. Until we start to do something different, that won't change however.

And, change is hard and scary. A reality of life is that change only occurs when the pain of where we are at becomes greater than the fear of the outcome of the change. The disrespect that I've felt became far greater than the fear of losing my x forever. If I didn't stop the disrespect, it was a given that it would continue and I'd be doomed to a life as a doormat.

[foggydew]

Well done, Meili. I think that is the kind of practical information we all need to hear. The first point is respecting yourself, if you can't do that, it is one big struggle without hope or comfort. You have the knowledge that you take yourself seriously.

[patientandclear]

This is just a great account of doing what you need to do to possibly make things better.

Of course the hardest part is that you truly do have to let go of the outcome.  My ex responds to such boundaries with long term disappearance or refusal to continue on terms that work for me.  I have never yet had the experience of setting a boundary with him and having him continue to engage me while respecting that boundary. About a year down the road, sometimes he reappears and says he is willing to move on the issue.  (So far, he has not ACTUALLY been willing to move on the issue.)

I hope your outcome is happier than mine, but everything you wrote here makes all kinds of sense.  Good for you.

[Meili]

Thank you. There were multiple text messages and phone calls that followed my posting. I'm still giving her an ultimatum, still being controlling, still being a jerk, still not trusting her,, still not allowing her to be herself or have friends,  etc. I'm still not waivering though.

[Meili]

UPDATE:

So, things have been going really well with my x. We've been spending a lot of time together, hanging out together, making plans to do things together, etc.

Then, my landlord told me that I need to move. She offered me a room at her place provided that I pay half the bills. That sounded like a great deal to me. Then it happened... .

She told me that she was nervous about my living there because she couldn't have the freedom that she desires. I respect that, and her fears are justified. I was content just being friends while she worked out her fears regarding our past and to build trust with me. But, I have no desire to watch her flirt with other men and have them stay over at the house, even if in the spare bedroom.

So, I told her that I share her fears; that I won't be able to handle just being friends while living with her. I also told her that I really have no desire to just be her friend period. I'm comfortable with the notion that she may not want anymore from me and she'll move on. If she hasn't decided that I'm worth the risk after the last three months, then I'm not worth the risk to her and I will be to someone else.

[JJacks0]

Hi Meili,

Glad to hear that things have been going pretty well for you.

How did she respond to what you told her about just being friends?

[ArleighBurke]

Fantastic job a few weeks back sticking to your boundary (re her trip away with a man)!

So, I told her that I share her fears; that I won't be able to handle just being friends while living with her. I also told her that I really have no desire to just be her friend period.

Giving her the ultimatum on the relationship is good. It does force her to decide to jump in or out. And both answers allow you to move forwards.

But, I have no desire to watch her flirt with other men and have them stay over at the house, even if in the spare bedroom.

Do you know this is happenning? If it was - then forcing her to choose is a great thing.

So now you can see what she answers with... .

[Meili]

Yes, she was openly flirting in front if me. Of course, she told me that I was wrong aND over reacting, she was just being nice and making a new friend.

As of right now, she does not want a relationship with me. She still just wants me to give her more time, etc. She is going on the trip with the other guy (in fact, he's been staying at her house all week).

So, she gets all the time and space she needs. I'm moving forward with my life.

It felt really good to stand up for myself and my needs.

[patientandclear]

It is a good feeling. But/and, there will also be profound feelings of loss. You've been trying really hard and she's been a huge part of your inner landscape. And--she will very likely make major efforts to prevent you from drifting away/leaving the farm, even to the point of strongly suggesting she has changed or might change her mind. You are too valuable an emotional partner to just let go of.

I'm sorry. As you know, I really relate to your situation. I support you 1000% in your current resolve. You are making good on your commitments to yourself and to her about limits.

[Meili]

Thank you PnC.

This has already proven true today:

And--she will very likely make major efforts to prevent you from drifting away/leaving the farm, even to the point of strongly suggesting she has changed or might change her mind.

We travel in the same social circle, and I asked her about attending the same events this morning; many of which she hosts. She told me that it would depend on how we are together. The conversation that followed was pretty much that she still wants me in her life and to try to see if I have changed enough for us to reconcile. By this, she means if I am going to stop caring about her and other guys. My position on this is that I will be friendly with her and treat her like I do all of my other friends who are not in my inner circle.

Unfortunately, she's a part of my emotional landscape as well. It's difficult, as I'm sure that we all know, to not chase her like I once would have. It's really weird sitting here at work without chatting with her like we have for almost two years now. The only thing that is keeping me from doing that is me though. I'm sure that if I sent her something, she'd respond. But, I'm not emailing any of my other friends, so why would I email her?

I'm still dealing with the disbelief that things have played out this way. She's been acting as if we are a couple in so many ways. But, when it doesn't suit her desire at the moment, she reminds me that we are not.

I'm just glad that I'm not an emotional wreck like I was when our relationship ended. I can see a bright future for myself without or with her in my life (in whatever capacity that is).

[patientandclear]

It sounds like she wants what my ex wanted: many attributes of a partnership, without the accountability and acknowledgment that comes with that. I would often feel confused about whether my own refusal to go along with that was somehow wrong or unfair or a failure of imagination. A friend said at one point "what he wants is a BPD thing--don't get confused about whether it could be healthy or OK." What she wants is a very BPD thing.

You're in a tough position because the difference between viable and non-viable to continue is so subtle. It's really about her intentions and her need to assert that she does not belong to you. But meanwhile you feel like a couple, it's so enjoyable, etc. I've been there, exactly there. I imagine you have some disbelief that she would actually make the choice she's currently making. I know I did--it seems like a huge loss on favor of not much.

But for my ex, I believe settling for a real person who has been a source of hurt or disappointment (which we all eventually are) is a loss of hope; and being with someone who really knows him feels super threatening; and both are managed by insisting on a degree of distance that is conveniently guaranteed by him retaining the prerogative to pursue other women. It doesn't make sense to me but it makes sense to him. It is very stable and persistent. So far, he has traded our actually wonderful r/ship for the potential of more with someone else or for the freedom of a "friends" status. It's hard to accept he would do that but he consistently does.

I'd predict she will confuse the waters as much as she can to see if she can restore you to the closest possible posture without making a full commitment to you. And that that will be hard to say no to. My solidarity to you, Meili. It's a hard dynamic.

[Meili]

Thank you PNC.

It was very strange last night. I was at an event and so was one her guy friends. One who I had met and they really are just friends. He and I started talking. After about his 6th whiskey and coke, he asked me what happened between my x and me the other day. I explained. He told me that I'm an idiot, that she really loves me and wants to be with me,  and just needs a little time to work some stuff out.

Now, did she ask him to talk to me, or does he know things I don't?  We'll never know the answer to that.  I do know that my position hasn't changed.  I'm still going to treat her like any other friend in the group; not close friends. She won't know anything that is going on in my life, and certainly won't get any of the "bf benefits."

[Meili]

Yesterday she went off on me because we had both been invited to the same event by her, presumably, well-meaning friend. She contacted me and asked if I was going. I had not decided and told her that. My x asked me not to go because she wanted some time apart. I agreed. Thas when she started to get really angry; telling me that she shouldn't have to ask for time apart. I should just not talk to her friends or be places she or they are because she needs time and space. Her ultimate solution: we are done forever.

She also told me that she like a mean witch for asking me not to around, that she's extremely stressed, and that she hates that her wishes hurt me. She said that she would normally just sick it up and deal with her insecurity but can't right now because of everything she has going on.

I told her that I understand and that I'd stay away from her and the events that her and her friends will be at, and that I'd not contact her again or accept contact from her friends. At this point, she got even more upset and told me that I should just take over her group of friends and all the events that she normally plans.

This all took place through a series of text messages and phone calls. Each time that I would end the discussion, she would contact me again.

At some point, after telling me that we're over forever, she told me that she doesn't know what our future holds. She just meets time and space to calm down and heal. I again assured her that I'll vanish from her world. That's not what she wants apparently. I received an email at 1 am asking if I also received a similar notification from Yahoo. Neither of us use Yahoo.

So, I know that she dysregulated because of the stress and her feeling like a bad person for hurting me and being a mean witch. All that I can think if to do from here is not initiate any contact.