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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: Lets see how this goes  (Read 489 times)
jrharvey
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« on: August 30, 2016, 02:03:32 PM »

Well it was a great run. Im at work and everything is going great. She is texting me sweet things and I am back. Its about lunch and I get up to print something, mark up the document and scan it in. Not sure how long that took. I guess she texted me and 9 mintues later I texted her back. She started asking what I was doing and why it took so long. She said I was on facebook. I was not. I know for a fact. Maybe earlier that day but not within any time close to that. I tell her I had to do a few things for work and that's why I didn't respond. She started saying I was ignoring her on purpose. I asked if I could talk to her about something in a loving way. She accepted.

I tried to use D.E.A.R.M.A.N. I told her to let me finish but I didn't get so far.

I said... .

Excerpt
Babe, I feel like (doesn't mean its true) but I feel like you are upset because it took me 10 minutes to respond.

I would really love it if you could be more understanding of when I am at work and if I don't respond right away. Sometimes I have things I need to do and I cannot text you back so quickly.

I think we would both be a lot happier if we can respect each others time at work. I respect you when you are at work and cannot text me back sometimes for hours and I would like for that same respect to be given back to me.

THIS is as far as I got. She started interrupting me saying so you need to work by being on facebook? I said I was not on facebook.

I said... .Babe do you remember yesterday when you were on lunchbreak? I texted you several times and you ate lunch and didn't text me back. I know you read the messages and left the house before getting back to me. I respected you for that and didn't get upset. Its ok and normal.

She said... .Oh so that's what this is about. Your getting me back for that? Your actually trying to get back at me for not texting you yesterday?

I said... No I was never trying to get you back just give you an example of how I was understanding for you and how I want to be treated.

She said... .you just want to get back at me. I said... That's your belief...

At that point a bunch of pointless back and forth happened and I realized I was JADE'ing. I told her I didn't want to talk about this anymore and said goodbye and hung up the phone.

Later I basically told her that she needs to decide if she can be more understanding about me at work or else this isnt going to work out and we can separate. Of course that pissed her off pretty bad but I tried to express my feelings in a loving way and got rejected so I felt put in a corner. Im not sure how things will go now as she isn't talking to me now.

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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2016, 08:25:48 AM »

i went down this path as well, jrharvey.

"remember when you did x and i let it go/didnt get angry". i must have done similar hundreds of times in what i thought was a well intentioned effort to play fair, for her to see things in a less emotionally charged way. i cant remember a single time it worked. usually it turned into an extended battle of "he did, she did". why?

1. people with BPD are by nature overwhelmed by their emotions
2. because it really is responding to an accusation with an accusation
3. because it communicates "im reasonable and youre unreasonable"

your DEARMAN approach was fine. hanging up and exiting the conversation was a good move. thats a big improvement. keep at it, her initial push back is not surprising, and in your defense i dont know how one responds to "so you need to work by being on facebook?".

I tried to express my feelings in a loving way and got rejected so I felt put in a corner.

her behavior is still very frustrating and personal to you, but seeing it this way is causing you to respond in an emotional way. why do her insecure and attention seeking behaviors feel like rejection to you?
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jrharvey
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2016, 09:29:51 AM »

Excerpt
her behavior is still very frustrating and personal to you, but seeing it this way is causing you to respond in an emotional way. why do her insecure and attention seeking behaviors feel like rejection to you?

That's not the rejecting part. Its when I say... .
Excerpt
Babe, lets talk about this in a calm and loving way and work for a solution. This is what I think is a solution. What do you think?
If she just continues to rant about how I didn't answer the phone and she say that I was on facebook 5 minutes ago it feels rejecting to me because it seems she is unwilling to solve this problem. Only create more problems. Instead of fixing this together it seems she is pushing for a fight.
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2016, 11:30:54 AM »

THIS is as far as I got. She started interrupting me saying so you need to work by being on facebook? I said I was not on facebook.

If you took a golf lesson and the pro said to stand a certain way and the first tee off hooked - you give up on the pro?

You started this out very well (really well). When she came back with a jab you jumped in and started boxing with her. Later the fight escalated.

Step 1: She expressed insecurity / accuses
Step 2: You respectfully and with compassion ask her to be respectful of your work commitments
Step 3: She hears you say stop feeling what she is feeling and amps it up
Step 4: You jade - the two of your joust
Step 5: You terminate with some contempt
Step 6: You both pick up the battle later
Step 7: You threaten catastrophic relationship destruction.

I know her insecurity is over the top - it is not going to go away. You both have to learn to manage it and you need to lead.

If we had 20/20 hindsight,

Step 1: She expressed insecurity / accuses
Step 2: You respectfully and with compassion ask her to be respectful of your work commitments
Step 3: She hears you say stop feeling what she is feeling and amps it up
Step 4: Wow, I can tell you are really worried. Are you ok?
Step 5: More expression from here (and you listening and letting her be heard)
Step 6: (Validation). Look, I get it. Your last boyfriend was a snake. It would make anyone doubt.
Step 7: (Affirmation) I love you and I will never be like him. That's really what we both want, right?
Step 8: We need to talk about this - I want to hear you - I have to run - let's talk tonight.

Validation affirmation is going to go down better than denial and threatening to reject.

There is a fine line here that you want to be mindful of. As you cycle through these same conversations, you don't want to reward them - you want to slowly and with increasing firmness abd cooperation, to minimize and confine them to a time that is not so hard to contend with.




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isilme
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2016, 12:00:04 PM »

Excerpt
it seems she is unwilling to solve this problem. Only create more problems. Instead of fixing this together it seems she is pushing for a fight.

Her emotions tell her this IS the problem.  To her, it's absolutely certain you were ignoring her by being on FB and nothing you can say will prove that wrong, because then she'd be wrong and BPD cannot be wrong or shame sets in, and the argument is now her fault.

She thinks she IS working on the problem, you guys just don't agree what the problem IS.  Does that make sense?

Like this - I had some really bad stomach cramps from a medication I was put on this week.  I made some faces, in pain, but H assumed (as always) that I was making angry faces because I was mad at him.  He assumes if I sigh from being tired, winded, or being upset with myself for forgetting I meant to do something, I must be mad at him.  All of my actions must be related to things he is or is not doing.  This is how he is wired, and I am trying to be mindful of it.  Last night, after I realized he saw me grimace in pain, I made sure to tell him, "I'm feeling kinda sick from the antibiotics, it's making my stomach hurt.  I am not mad at you or anything you are doing, please do not think that." 

H gets cranky when I cannot respond from being at work at times.  H also finds it more rational to assume I am ignoring him, and not that I got called into a surprise meeting, am away from my desk fixing something, whatever.

Your SO doesn't see the world in things you need to do that don't involve her, and things that do involve her.  You are part of her emotional circle, comfort, whatever, and so all things must revolve around her.

So to her, asking why you were ignoring her by being on FB (which often shows me as on when I am not, too), and then accusing you of ignoring her as revenge, all makes sense and she thinks this is solving the problem that SHE sees. 

Not sure if this makes sense.  But it's not that she is not trying to solve the problem - her coping skills don't let her at this time actually identify the problem (her own insecurity) and address it.  She feels a need to fight because to her that's what her emotions want and need.  I think you did pretty good.  The Lessons can help, it won't make the BPD go away, but it helps YOU not let things hurt you as much.

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Jessica84
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2016, 01:28:27 PM »

I feel for you jrharvey. Not easy to handle so many accusations at once. Like chasing a bouncing ball all over the place, or shooting a moving target. Is her issue you ignoring her, not responding fast enough, being on facebook, seeking revenge? Who knows, it keeps changing. Rather than address these one by one, try validating the overall theme of her accusations - the feelings driving her (she's anxious/worried/feeling rejected).

You know in advance she panics when you don't respond fast enough. Could you try a proactive approach when you see more than 1 minute has passed since she texted? ONE SIMPLE, CASUAL response like: hey, sorry just got your text. Left my phone on the desk to go print something. How are you?

My bf used to accuse me of using my phone as a "weapon". If I didn't reply fast enough, I was ignoring him, mad at him, thinking of leaving him, out with another man... .his imagination ran amok! So I started calming his fears before he had a chance to accuse me of anything.
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Meili
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2016, 01:43:52 PM »

I agree with Jessica, being proactive is far better than being reactive; especially since you know how she's going to respond.
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jrharvey
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2016, 01:48:45 PM »

Excerpt
Step 1: She expressed insecurity / accuses
Step 2: You respectfully and with compassion ask her to be respectful of your work commitments
Step 3: She hears you say stop feeling what she is feeling and amps it up
Step 4: Wow, I can tell you are really worried. Are you ok?
Step 5: More expression from here (and you listening and letting her be heard)
Step 6: (Validation). Look, I get it. Your last boyfriend was a snake. It would make anyone doubt.
Step 7: (Affirmation) I love you and I will never be like him. That's really what we both want, right?
Step 8: We need to talk about this - I want to hear you - I have to run - let's talk tonight.

THIS is really good. This is so good. Wow. I need to get to this point. Im not exactly sure what makes me react this way. I didn't use to be like this.
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Jessica84
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2016, 02:00:41 PM »

Go easy on yourself. It takes time and practice to slow our minds down in the middle of these conflicts. Once you learn to slow your own reaction time down (to calm yourself first), you will be in a better position to validate her and avoid JADE. Eventually, this will become second nature. Think of it like putting on the oxygen mask on an airplane. You (as the emotional adult) have to take a few hits of oxygen for yourself before you can help the her (the emotional child) sitting next to you. 
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jrharvey
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2016, 02:03:04 PM »

Excerpt
I agree with Jessica, being proactive is far better than being reactive; especially since you know how she's going to respond.

I do know she gets insecure about me not responding quick enough. I also know she will respond this way every time. The hard part is I am putting myself in impossible situations that almost guarantee failure. If I just keep chasing the rabit down the hole and trying to make sure I respond within 1 minute there will always be times when I cannot. If I am having a discussion with my boss that takes 30 minutes and she text me during that time I cannot simply tell my boss to hold on while I grab my phone and text her. I also don't feel like its right to be in constant fear of her texting and not texting back quick enough. I will hit a point where I am hyper aware of this and check my phone every minute to make sure she hasn't texted me. Its putting me in a walking on eggshells position but at the same time she takes her time to respond when she feels like it and if she sees me text her and waits 30 or so minutes to respond its no big deal but if I do the same its hell on earth. It seems that without asserting myself I am falling back into the pleaser mentality and also rewarding bad behavior.

I guess that's part of the personality disorder. What she does doesn't affect her feelings so she doesn't see a problem with it. If she FEELS like I take too long all that matters to her is her feeling and how she FEELS abandoned or like I am ignoring her. Even if I am not. I guess there is no equal part relationship here. I will always be a caretaker. I will always be the healer and have to be the strong one.

We talked a lot last night and she agreed to be more understanding about texting and not get so upset if I take too long to respond. I agreed that I should not tell her that If she doesn't change then I will end the relationship. That is something I should not be saying anyways so I agreed to stop. Even if I am thinking that I will just tell her its very very very important to me that this change.

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Jessica84
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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2016, 03:00:05 PM »

I understand your frustration. I still find myself a slave to my phone sometimes. God forbid I leave it on silent, in the car, forget to charge it, go to the bathroom, fall asleep, enter a building with no wifi, lose a signal (and get accused of hanging up on him)... .it's maddening!

A few years ago, I had to attend an all-day seminar in a basement with concrete walls where there was no cell signal or wifi service. As soon as I left, I discovered an alarming number of missed calls and texts. The last text said "We're over". I had to scroll up to see a series of texts (each one uglier than the next) and listen to angry voicemails to learn he got into an argument with himself on my phone and broke up with me. It was hell. And took months before we got back on track.

He wasn't understanding at all, and I couldn't think of any boundaries. I can't control the universe or technology!

So I started giving him some fair warning and gentle reminders if I knew I would be unavailable... .":)entist today. Ugh". That way if he calls while I'm having my teeth cleaned, I've got my built-in alibi, so to speak. And if I can't know in advance (because life happens), like you having a meeting with your boss, a quick "sorry I missed your call. Got stuck in meeting with so-and-so. How are you?"

I have far more freedom now. It only takes a few seconds to avoid a meltdown that could last for hours or days. I try to keep it light and casual so as not to arouse any suspicion on his part. If he overreacts anyway, that's when I use boundaries and exit the conversation. Can't JADE or invalidate if you're not having a conversation.

Heads-up: He didn't like it at first, didn't trust me, kept accusing and questioning me. But as long as I didn't take the bait or over-explain myself, these episodes decreased significantly.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2016, 08:13:23 PM »

Like Jessica84 mentions, fair warnings and gentle reminders can be really helpful too. It is something I worked on this summer and it worked. I even did it to describe boring parts of my day. "I'm going to work for about an hour and then take the dog for a walk, and later tonight so-and-so is coming over to see the house. After that, I'm going to make dinner."

Structure and routines helps to keep the wheels from coming off, and we can provide this in casual ways that head things off at the pass.

These relationships require more reassurance than non-BPD relationships, though I found myself doing this at work with a difficult supervisor (OCD) and noticed it helped even her out too.  
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Breathe.
jrharvey
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2016, 12:07:36 PM »

Excerpt
Like Jessica84 mentions, fair warnings and gentle reminders can be really helpful too. It is something I worked on this summer and it worked. I even did it to describe boring parts of my day. "I'm going to work for about an hour and then take the dog for a walk, and later tonight so-and-so is coming over to see the house. After that, I'm going to make dinner."

I already do a lot of this. I tell her everything ahead of time. That particular day was just a normal day at work. I cant text her everything I do at work. I cant say... .

Im going to the bathroom
Im going to make a copy
Im going to print something at the printer
Im talking to my boss for 5 minutes
Oh its taking longer to talk to my boss. Maybe 10 minutes.
Im helping someone with their computer for 5 minutes

Its getting to the point where its just better to wear a body camera. I already tell her everywhere I go and everything I do to a certain point. I cant get into the details listed above. That's too much.
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jrharvey
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2016, 12:14:33 PM »

Here is something very strange that happened the other day.

I was driving home after work. I could already tell she was ultra insecure because I was the last one to leave the office. I always am because I go in late JUST so I can sleep in with her which she wants and likes. So I have to leave later but she still gets upset about that.

I was driving home and she called me and I was on the highway.

Excerpt
She said... ."Whats that noise? It sounds like there is someone with you scratching on your car".
I said... Scratching? Babe really? You think someone is in my car and scratching?
She said... .Yeah that's exactly what it sounds like. Sounds like someone is in there scratching.
I said... .Nobody is here with me (I show a video call). I asked... .Is there anything else that you think it might be? Is there any other possible thing that sound might be? Maybe the sound of the tires on the road or the rain hitting the car? Anything at all babe?
She said... .No it just sounds like someone is in there scratching.
I said... .Babe do you think that is a normal thing to say? Do you think its normal to think someone is in my car scratching something?
She said... .Yes that's what it sounds like so that's normal. It sounds exactly like that.
This sounds beyond BPD. Im not sure what is going on but its not normal.
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Jessica84
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2016, 10:18:04 AM »

Don't go round and round with her. You might say something like "must be static or a bad connection", then leave it at that. You've validated she's not crazy for hearing things, but without validating the invalid - that there's someone in the car with you, scratching for no apparent reason.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  If she accuses you of lying, end the conversation. Pointless to argue with a paranoid person.

As for the daily walks to the printer, meetings, bathroom breaks, no one is suggesting you preemptively text her a full detailed accounting of your every step. That is unrealistic, and unhealthy. If a "hey, sorry I missed your text, stepped away to do xyz" isn't good enough, then you may need a new boundary for phone time at work. She is abusing the privilege of being able to contact you at work. All on her terms, with you scrambling to justify your whereabouts. Boundaries will give you some freedom and control back.
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