Emotional abuse poll

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all,

I'm wondering what kind of emotional abuse you all experienced in your relationships. Here are some examples of emotional abuse from another bpdfamily thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0 (for the poll, I tried to group some of these together):

EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Humiliation and extreme lack of respect
- comparing victim to others
- degrading victim
- deliberately creating a mess for victim to clean
- having double standards for victim
- humiliating victim
- laughing in victim's face
- making victim think she/he is stupid, or crazy
- minimizing or disregarding victim's work or accomplishments
- name calling and finding fault
- not keeping commitments
- putting victim down, not defending her
- refusing to do things with or for victim
- suggested involvement with other women or men
- using certain mannerisms or behaviour as a means of control (eg. snapping fingers, pointing)

Power, domination and control
- always getting own way
- demanding an account of victim's time/routine
- denying or taking away victim's responsibilities
- expecting victim to conform to a role
- inappropriate expressionof jealousy
- insisting on accompanying victim to the doctor's office
- making her do illegal things
- manipulation
- pressuring victim
- preventing victim from getting or taking a job
- refusing to deal with issues
- taking advantage of victim's fear of something
- threatening her with anything (words, objects)
- threatening to get drunk or stoned unles... .
- threatening to leave or commit suicide
- treating victim as a child
- verbal threats

Extreme emotional chaos and instability
- holding grudges and not really forgiving
- making victim feel guilty
- neglecting victim
- overpowering victim's emotions
- playing "mind games"
- silence, ignoring victim
- starting arguments
- withholding affection

Consistent and significant lying and blaming
- blame the victim for things
- bringing up past issues
- disbelieving victim
- false accusations
- lying
- saying one thing and meaning another
- turning the situation against the victim

[kc sunshine]

Hi all,

I'm wondering what kind of emotional abuse you all experienced in your relationships. Here are some examples of emotional abuse from another bpdfamily thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0 (for the poll, I tried to group some of these together):

EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Humiliation and extreme lack of respect
- comparing victim to others
- degrading victim
- deliberately creating a mess for victim to clean
- having double standards for victim
- humiliating victim
- laughing in victim's face
- making victim think she/he is stupid, or crazy
- minimizing or disregarding victim's work or accomplishments
- name calling and finding fault
- not keeping commitments
- putting victim down, not defending her
- refusing to do things with or for victim
- suggested involvement with other women or men
- using certain mannerisms or behaviour as a means of control (eg. snapping fingers, pointing)

Power, domination and control
- always getting own way
- demanding an account of victim's time/routine
- denying or taking away victim's responsibilities
- expecting victim to conform to a role
- inappropriate expressionof jealousy
- insisting on accompanying victim to the doctor's office
- making her do illegal things
- manipulation
- pressuring victim
- preventing victim from getting or taking a job
- refusing to deal with issues
- taking advantage of victim's fear of something
- threatening her with anything (words, objects)
- threatening to get drunk or stoned unles... .
- threatening to leave or commit suicide
- treating victim as a child
- verbal threats

Extreme emotional chaos and instability
- holding grudges and not really forgiving
- making victim feel guilty
- neglecting victim
- overpowering victim's emotions
- playing "mind games"
- silence, ignoring victim
- starting arguments
- withholding affection

Consistent and significant lying and blaming
- blame the victim for things
- bringing up past issues
- disbelieving victim
- false accusations
- lying
- saying one thing and meaning another
- turning the situation against the victim

[saturn25]

Very helpful. Thank you.

[JQ]

I learned a long time ago in particular type of military training that we as individuals have our own breaking points, our own level of pain we can withstand.  You might be able to tolerate a particular type of "enhanced interrogation" better then me, or Bob, and Suzy might be able to kick all of our butts in withstanding what real pain is.

But no matter who you are, we will all eventually succumb to the pain, the emotional distress, the intense quietness, cold, wet situation we are in. You will give them what they want ... .once you've reached that point you take a deep breath & regain yourself and start the resistance again.

If you look at that same process in regards to BPD, we will all break eventually, but what you can take in the way of emotional, mental, physical abuse from your respective BPD might be stronger than me and Suzy is certainly stronger than the both of us. It doesn't mean that mine is "worse" than Suzy or your's is less than mine. Therefor no one ... .how did you put it, oh yeah, "got it worse".

The point of surviving a kidnapping or POW situation is to SURVIVE plain and simple.  A BPD r/s is no different ... .the goal of everyone here is to survive the BPD r/s and move forward. To grow as a person in our knowledge of BPD, what our BPD is actually suffering from and know that it is a VERY Serious Behavioral Mental Illness that is beyond modern medical pharma or surgery or talk therapy to cure. At best the pwBPD can hope for is a "management" on a certain level of the behavior. What is MOST important is that we as survivors learn to grow, learn about ourselves as NONs aka Codependents and how we can make ourselves better, grow as people, learn to love ourselves, develop a sense of self, to learn to find happiness in ourselves, our actions & learn to live OUR lives for OURSELVES.

J

[Violettine]

They can remit and be done with it. TFP is more than just management. DBT is management.

[JQ]

  Volettine,

Transference-Focused Psychotherapy (TFP) is a psychodynamic treatment designed especially for patients with borderline personality disorder (BPD). A distinguishing feature of TFP in contrast to many other treatments for BPD is the belief in a psychological structure that underlies the specific symptoms a borderline individual suffers from. In other words, the focus of treatment is on a deep psychological make-up – a mind structured around a fundamental split that determines the patient’s way of experiencing self and others and the environment.

Since this internal split determines the nature of the patient’s perceptions, it leads to the chaotic interpersonal relations, impulsive self-destructive behaviors, and other symptoms of BPD. The internal split is based on a model of the mind in which early affectively-charged experiences are cumulatively internalized over time in the individual’s mind and become established in the individual’s psychological structure as “object relations dyads” – units which combine a specific representation of the self and a specific representation of the other linked by a specific affect.

TFP posits a multifactorial explanation in which elements of biologically-determined temperament and of environment combine to maintain this split psychological structure. In over-simplified terms, internal representations of frustrating others in relation to a helpless deprived self are totally split off from internal representations of gratifying others in relation to a satisfied self.
www.psychcentral.com/lib/transference-focused-psychotherapy/

This type of therapy & your short statement, "They can remit and be done with it" seems to be a little over optimistic giving the severity of the BPD mental behavioral illness & the immense complications of getting someone with BPD to continue with any type of treatment. IF TFP is the end all be all cure with a Severe Cluster B Mental Illness why isn't it being discussed in Mental Health circles or sung from the highest mountains that they've "CURED" one of the most severe Mental Illness that has the highest suicide rate of them all?

J

[Skip]

IF TFP is the end all be all cure with a Severe Cluster B Mental Illness why isn't it being discussed in Mental Health circles or sung from the highest mountains that they've "CURED" one of the most severe Mental Illness that has the highest suicide rate of them all?

Maybe the practical reality is somewhere in the middle.

1. It would be a stretch to say that the partners of the members of this board, for the most part, had severe cluster B mental illnesses. Most have traits and do not rise to the clinical definition. This is why most of us are so conflicted - the ex had a lot of good traits but the bouts of instability eventually broke the relationship.

2. Bipolar disorder has the highest risk of suicide (usually during a depressed episode or mixed state) at 15-20% followed by schizophrenia (10-15% some studies put that rate higher). Borderline personality disorder is high (8-10%), as is unipolar depression (5-10%).

3. We shouldn't build our recovery and healing on a foundation that suggests our partners are terminally flawed and we are healthy busy bees. More than 50% of the people in a relationship with a person with a mental illness or addiction posses a mental illness or addiction themselves. NPD traits is a common pairing with BPD traits. Codependency and other low self esteem conditions (some transient) are also at play.

4. DBT is not necessarily the best treatment for all people with BPD or traits. It is the most studied and it is general believed to be the most effective in dealing with BPD related suicidal idealization, but some of the other methods are considered more effective at treating core wounds.

BPD is actually suffering from and know that it is a VERY Serious Behavioral Mental Illness that is beyond modern medical pharma or surgery or talk therapy to cure. At best the pwBPD can hope for is a "management" on a certain level of the behavior.

Should we say this about alcoholism and other mental afflictions and addictions, too. "Beyond modern medicine" is pretty extreme.

[Violettine]

Indeed. And anorexia nervosa is usually cited as having the highest suicide rate.

[kc sunshine]

TFP sounds super interesting-- could you describe it a bit more?

[Violettine]

I'm short on time but please go to NEABPD on youtube and check out their videos (specifically Dr. Frank Yeomans). Ignore any dick-waving between the DBTers and the TFPers in the panels. LOL

TFP sounds super interesting-- could you describe it a bit more?

[Violettine]

Oh, sorry, I meant death rate for anorexia. Suicides account for half--so about the same as BPD.

[C.Stein]

I think the poll here shows where our own weaknesses are, not so much how "bad" our respective partners are.  What do I mean by that?  Well, it shows the behavior we allowed and tolerated from our partners. 

The question we should be asking here is why? 

Why did we allow ourselves to remain in a relationship where this type of behavior occurred?  When we can answer that question then hopefully we can see a path towards change and understanding that takes us away from the destructive type relationships that ended us all here on this forum.

[once removed]

The question we should be asking here is why? 

yep.

for example, the jealousy and accusations and attempts at control based on her insecurity. really smothering stuff, and not something i have much patience with.

why did i allow and tolerate it? one reason is the security it provided me. its tempting to believe someone so insecure and dependent wont leave, and appreciates you. its also tempting to believe that you can appease those insecurities. i remained in the relationship long past the point i stopped believing that.

i knew about projection, and i knew that those same insecurities can actually drive a person to cheat. i saw no evidence. of course when i finally did, i overlooked it.

[C.Stein]

why did i allow and tolerate it? one reason is the security it provided me. its tempting to believe someone so insecure and dependent wont leave, and appreciates you. its also tempting to believe that you can appease those insecurities. i remained in the relationship long past the point i stopped believing that.

I think you hit the nail on the head here, at least with respect to me.  Something I mentioned to her on several occasions was this.  It is not so much what you did as it is the underlying thought process.  On the surface some of the things she did seem superficial ... .that is what she believed.  An implied threat that she might cheat under certain circumstances ... .no big deal right?  WRONG! 

It was the thought process that led her to that implied threat ... .and it had a deep and lasting impact on me.  That threat and one other thing that happened within the first 2 weeks of our relationship should have been enough to show me when the chips were on the table who she would truly be.  I shouldn't have walked away at that point ... .I should have RUN!  Instead I choose to stay and I bent over backwards to appease her ... .until I couldn't do it anymore and the wall began to go up.

So why didn't I leave at the beginning?  Good question which I still don't really have a complete answer to but what you said above is certainly a part of it.  Another part was I was starving ... .and she fed me exactly what I needed.  Someone who is starving is less likely to question if the food is tainted until they are not starving anymore ... .which by that time it is too late.  You have become addicted to the tainted food.

i knew about projection, and i knew that those same insecurities can actually drive a person to cheat. i saw no evidence. of course when i finally did, i overlooked it.

Yes ... .I as well.  I wanted to believe in something that just was not true and in the end she was true to her implied threat.

[Mutt]

Hmm. I'd argue on the point about what we allowed because I couldn't control my ex wife's behaviors, at her worst it was chaotic. What I mean by that are the silent treatments, over controlling behavior, degradation, humiliation... .and more. I also don't think that it's a hard and fast rule to leave a pwBPD when you have a family with kids involved? I think that the answer is somewhere in the middle and not too far one way or the other?

Why is a good question. For some of us and not all , the answers are in your childhood. Did you tolerate these types of behaviors from a critical parent, ( Skip mentioned alcoholism, that's a good example,  did you have an alcoholic parent?   Did you grow up in an evironnment that conditioned you to emotional abuse and affected your self esteem? Children can't contol their envionment and emotional abuse can become a way of life or a way of survival. Some people may not be aware just like a pwBPD are unaware of their own behabiors that they suffer from self worth / self esteem ssues. Adding  low self esteem was considered at one point to be added to the DSM. Good discussion!

[C.Stein]

I believe one key to identifying our own self-worth and self-esteem issues is to remember the beginning and if you asked yourself one particular question ... .

Why would such an attractive woman/man be interested in me?

[Mutt]

I believe one key to identifying our own self-worth and self-esteem issues is to remember the beginning and if you asked yourself one particular question ... .

Why would such an attractive woman/man be interested in me?

I think that what you mean here is changing your behavior after going through a difficult break-up and not before that? I'm getting the sense that we may be assuming that we all have the same level of self awareness? Everyone's different, there's not a "one size fits all" I'm just saying that some people are not be aware of their own behaviors ( I'm not excusing it, it's just how it is ) personality quirks, and how our interactions affect others in r/s's. That said.

Without derailing the conversation, identifying red flags is good but my T said give a person a chance and let them in and not be   hyper sensitive and reject them right away, which makes sense to me. Let them in and if issues are raised then start setting boundaries. So, it's something that can be taken away and learned from going through these difficult experiences but we can't blame someone because their in an emotionally abusive r/s if they don't know what the unhealthy characteristics are. It's all a learning curve  

It can be embarrassing and difficult to talk about emotional abuse because you may feel like your being judged?

[myself]

For some of us, the abuse was a kind of erosion process. The first drips were seen as '(S)he's just having a bad day, had a rough childhood, the last relationship was damaging, etc.' "I'm strong and secure enough to not take this so personally, to lovingly be there for my partner... ." But the longer and heavier the drips and splashes continued, the deeper the destructive groove was formed in the connection, intimacy, and trust. It wasn't until a T said, "What you're going through is Abusive... .No wonder you're hurting and exhausted," and seeing that the behaviors were a seriously ill mix of can't-help-it and intentional, that I started to have better personal boundaries and stopped helping sweep things underneath the rug. That said, even though I understand so much of what's at play here, it's still been hard to accept that someone who loved me so much also lashed out at me so much, and ruined her own chances to create a better life for herself when the possibilities arose. Like she abused herself as well, and perhaps most of all.

[C.Stein]

I think that what you mean here is changing your behavior after going through a difficult break-up and not before that?

I'm speaking more along the lines of trying to understand how/why some of us might have gotten into and stayed in unhealthy relationships long after the wall was full of writing.  While my ex wasn't "out of my league", there have been times in my past when those thoughts crossed my mind at the beginning of a relationship.  This speaks to deficiencies in our (my) self-confidence, self-esteem and self-worth.  As a consequence I believe people will tolerate things that they shouldn't and become an easy "target" for abuse, regardless of the abuse being intentional or not.

[Violettine]

So many pwBPD are attractive, whether it's through charisma, natural good looks, intriguing dressing (goth, etc.) or all and/or more. Interesting!

I think that what you mean here is changing your behavior after going through a difficult break-up and not before that?

I'm speaking more along the lines of trying to understand how/why some of us might have gotten into and stayed in unhealthy relationships long after the wall was full of writing.  While my ex wasn't "out of my league", there have been times in my past when those thoughts crossed my mind at the beginning of a relationship.  This speaks to deficiencies in our (my) self-confidence, self-esteem and self-worth.  As a consequence I believe people will tolerate things that they shouldn't and become an easy "target" for abuse, regardless of the abuse being intentional or not.

[kc sunshine]

In thinking about the poll results so far, it seems like one of the findings is that members faced abuse related to power, domination, and control at significantly lower amounts than abuse related to the other categories. What are your all's interpretation of that?

To me, it seems to speak to the abuse we face as "collateral damage" to the abuse they give themselves--e.g. feelings of humiliation, emotional chaos, blaming. Other interpretations?

[foggydew]

Been thinking about this a lot... .what I noticed is that I have always been confronted with abusive behaviour, since I was a small child. My method of dealing with it was to ignore it and carry on with life as usual. Pretend it wasn't happening. Lose respect for those who were abusive. It seemed to make me stronger and more able to deal with the stuff... .but the constant dripping, long term effect seems always to have been that I had a meltdown at some point. I also manage to forget these meltdowns, so that each time it happens it seems new. I kept a diary at the most hair raising times in my adult life... .and have been shocked when reading it today to see how similar the situations are. I also always had the idea... because I can cope with it I should cope with it. Well, apparently I can't, not long term.

[kc sunshine]

Wow, that is very powerful and resonates a lot with me-- that short term feeling of having a sense of myself as strong because I could cope with it (and sometimes figure out a way out of it) but the long term negative effect.

because I can cope with it I should cope with it. Well, apparently I can't, not long term.

[Sadly]

Mmm, I have always dealt with things always faced them and dealt with them. No whining whimpering can't do this business. This is what has been dealt so get on with it. When we fell over or hurt ourselves as kids my mum used to give us a quick hug, wipe us down and say " never mind, it won't hurt when it's better" obviously not for serious injuries. I guess that's how I was brought up, which is why this whole business has floored me. Not dealing not coping not any of the above.

[C.Stein]

In thinking about the poll results so far, it seems like one of the findings is that members faced abuse related to power, domination, and control at significantly lower amounts than abuse related to the other categories. What are your all's interpretation of that?

To me, it seems to speak to the abuse we face as "collateral damage" to the abuse they give themselves--e.g. feelings of humiliation, emotional chaos, blaming. Other interpretations?

I believe many times the "caretaker" type doesn't realize they are being controlled and manipulated.  In my case my ex was very subtle most of the time when she attempted to control/manipulate me ... .and other times not subtle at all.  It is easy to see the overt attempts at control and manipulation but the subtle ones, especially if you aren't looking for it and/or do not see it, are overlooked (sometimes intentionally without realizing it).

[kc sunshine]

What were some of those subtle ways, C.Stein?

For me, all I can think of are the not so subtle examples (angry texts when I was at my friends house, going through my phone, etc). It would be helpful to develop my radar for the more subtle things as well.

I believe many times the "caretaker" type doesn't realize they are being controlled and manipulated.  In my case my ex was very subtle most of the time when she attempted to control/manipulate me ... .and other times not subtle at all.  It is easy to see the overt attempts at control and manipulation but the subtle ones, especially if you aren't looking for it and/or do not see it, are overlooked (sometimes intentionally without realizing it).

[C.Stein]

What were some of those subtle ways, C.Stein?

To be honest I have a hard time seeing them myself even now.  As I replay things she has said or done in my head (wish that would stop) I can see it for what it is, but then it is gone again.  I've had so many realizations that get lost in the sea of emotions I still experience with regard to her.  What confuses me is the question if she knows what she is doing or it is just subconscious.  I tend to think much of it is subconscious but not all.

I think one example in my case might be when she would tell me "I just want to take care of you".  I guess the circumstances surrounding the times when those words were spoken are important ... .in that it can be seen as an attempt to get me to overlook things she had done and said, to think good of her.  She wanted/needed me to believe she is a good person for reasons we are all aware of.  So when she said those words with the intent (conscious or not) for me to put aside my own feelings and pain and forget the hurtful thing(s) she did/said it was very manipulative and controlling. 

The saddest thing is they were just words without substance and when it was time to back them up with actions she couldn't.  There are many more of these very subtle things she said/did that in effect, conscious or not, were attempts to control and/or manipulate me.  I should write them down as they come to me because sometimes I find myself in a "wow" moment in recollection.

[kc sunshine]

For me, I think the ever-present threat of being broken up with was the worst, and had a controlling effect. I was doing everything I could to avoid it (walking on eggshells, etc) but I guess from everything I read on here it was almost inevitable.

[kc sunshine]

I don't know why this poll helps me so much but it does. Does anyone have any good books or other resources about emotionally abusive relationships?

[C.Stein]

For me, I think the ever-present threat of being broken up with was the worst, and had a controlling effect.

Absolutely agree and it is extremely manipulative and controlling.  More times than I can count my ex made this threat, either directly or implied.  It is control through fear and extremely destructive.  It shows a complete lack of respect, love and caring for your well being as well as a complete lack of integrity on their part.

[Sadly]

After a load of break ups and back together mine told me we weren't together anymore. Not officially partners. Didn't hold hands in the street etc. But we were still together, living in each other's houses, going on holidays, visiting his parents. We were more together in the physical sense of being in each other's presence than anyone I know. No loving, no kissing or holding, no sex unless drugs were involved. He once tried to explain (when on drugs) that we we were still together sort of, that if anyone asked if he was single he would say no.
All it did was leave me more miserable and confused than ever. I still don't really get it.