heartlessness (push) vs attractiveness (pull)

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I am in the process of detaching, and some of my reasoning seems to operate at a very low (cerebral) level.

I have gone through/going through many of the classsic stages of breaking away from an abusive r/s.

But I find the physical attractiveness of my STBex at odds with my emotional and cerebral thinking.

I still get this... .she is attractive I would like to be with her... .despite all the past abuse

Am I alone with this kind of feeling? Is physical attractiveness (in the eye of the non) a major cause of the struggle to detatch.

This would seem to suggest I look at my W. as an object, which probably also need some work!

Does this make sense to anyone?

[earlgrey]

I am in the process of detaching, and some of my reasoning seems to operate at a very low (cerebral) level.

I have gone through/going through many of the classsic stages of breaking away from an abusive r/s.

But I find the physical attractiveness of my STBex at odds with my emotional and cerebral thinking.

I still get this... .she is attractive I would like to be with her... .despite all the past abuse

Am I alone with this kind of feeling? Is physical attractiveness (in the eye of the non) a major cause of the struggle to detatch.

This would seem to suggest I look at my W. as an object, which probably also need some work!

Does this make sense to anyone?

[woundedPhoenix]

Physical attractiveness alone would never work for me.

It's a combination of physical attractiveness and something else.

I guess at times i felt pretty proud that i had such an attractive woman next to me, who also knew how to play that out, she was assertive in her sexuality, and at times totally permissive too. And she choose me.

[joeramabeme]

Am I alone with this kind of feeling? Is physical attractiveness (in the eye of the non) a major cause of the struggle to detatch.
Does this make sense to anyone?

hello again earlgrey, yes, this makes sense.  I am very physically attracted to my ex.  But I don't think that is what has a hold on me. 

Your question makes me think of some of the back-stories I have read here, including my own.  I suspect that pwBPD choose people who are in some manner perceived as inferior.  Could be a perceived sense of greater physical beauty, monetary stability or other facet which may compare unequally to the selected partner.  I classify this as a form of selective-control; finding someone who is perceived as being inferior in comparison to a quality you possess.  For example, if I am wealthy and select someone living on the edge of poverty - I may easily parlay that difference into an advantage that can be leveraged to control my partner.

Do you think that this dynamic could be behind your question?  Upon closer inspection, I think it was a factor in my marriage that was continually leveraged.

JRB

[lonelyh1]

Yes, sometimes we look for any reason to hold on to the relationship.  And at times that is attractiveness.


We are human after all,  lots of issues come with the condition

[earlgrey]

Do you think that this dynamic could be behind your question? 
JRB

Hi Joe, yes a good approach to the problem. The inferior/superior equation.

I would say we are not significantly out of balance on most fronts, but given narcissists (and I thinks STBexw has some good N traits) feel superior, I am guessing she is using her physical attributes against me right now... .either to try and get me back, or to show me what I am missing. Given the general background of manipulation that is standard here, I think she is playing the sex card - over dressed, underdressed etc etc.

And to be quite honest I am struggling! (FYI divorce is ongoing yet we will cohabit - separate rooms - for some time).

From a POV of coping, do I comment on her apprearance, ignore it, or what? So far I have pretended not to notice anything, not sure if I have succeded.

[joeramabeme]

From a POV of coping, do I comment on her apprearance, ignore it, or what? So far I have pretended not to notice anything, not sure if I have succeded.

I think the answer to this question has to have its root in the cause.  Meaning, do you find yourself physically attracted to her because you believe this is the best looking women you will get?  Or is it that the two of you are still sexually active?  Or is there another root cause?  IMO, it is doubtful that ignoring her will be helpful to either one of you. 

Referencing your other post (heartlessness vs. attractiveness) and C. Stein's response; physical attraction tends to wear off as the primary reason we stay with a r/s and emotional factors tend to predominate our decisions to stay with a r/s - especially a broken one.  I agree with his comment - what are your thoughts?

Also, it is worth mentioning, if she knows that you are driven by physical qualities (and I am sure she does), these will become her ways of trying to hold the r/s together.  From what little I have read about your story, it sounds as if she is not ready to let go.  Her fear of abandonment and corresponding reactions will cause greater confusion for you, which is why I am encouraging trying to understand the nature of the physical attraction.

[purekalm]

Hello earlgrey,

Am I alone with this kind of feeling? Is physical attractiveness (in the eye of the non) a major cause of the struggle to detatch.

This would seem to suggest I look at my W. as an object, which probably also need some work!

Does this make sense to anyone?

I'm commenting because I just went through this, although not the legal divorce thing just yet. We currently still live together due to financial issues, but he will be leaving within a few weeks.

I had the same issue. We have been married for seven years, so obviously we are attracted to each other. That doesn't stop just because someone is being abusive or stupid, but that's also one small facet of who they are. My stbxh isn't considered a great looking guy, but I have always been attracted to him.

For me, when I knew it was all really final, it was hard. It was hard to accept that I had to make the decision, hard to live with him knowing he could've just loved us (me and our son), and so on. I was sad, angry and I still felt connected to him although it was changing. Every once in a long while I would screw up and be with him sexually and every time I would regret it because then he would think things were ok and I would be mad because if I never had sex again I wouldn't care if only I had him there in the capacity he had promised until death!

The other issue is that I realized early on the only way he was ever happy with me was if I gave him what he wanted sexually and reduced me to feeling like an object and not a person. I wasn't valued for anything else. So, a couple months ago was the last time and I felt a finality to it that I hadn't before. It was kind of like a goodbye of everything from me and made me very emotional because I knew I was finally letting go of all hope that we would ever be together or he could ever be what he promised he would be.

 At that time, I disconnected from him almost completely and I've felt so much healthier. It's not easy to live with him still, but I make sure to keep my physical distance from him in all things because of course I am still attracted to him. I don't comment if I think he looks particularly great that day. Any of this would give him license to think that I've changed my mind. Also, during this time he's tried to use the same push/pull and recycling almost ten times to get back together. It hasn't been easy, but I know it's for the best for me and my son. I was irritated with him for a few weeks really bad, and now things have kind of settled into a "friend" type zone for the most part where we get along for my son until he leaves. I feel your pain and I don't think it's seeing her as an object at all, just the fact that you wouldn't have gotten with her if part of you wasn't attracted to her, although that isn't the only reason I hope.  As a side note, he's also slept on the couch this entire time. This is my experience, although everyone is different. =)

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[Ulysses]

she is attractive I would like to be with her... .despite all the past abuse

I think this is a part of the journey.  Eventually it will come together for you and you won't be attracted, I think.  I was in a similar situation and I often reflected on why I would be attracted to someone who treated me the way my ex did. 

Eventually I didn't feel attracted to him, which surprised me.  I'm not sure if his behavior got worse, or if I woke up and realized how abusive it was.  I didn't feel there was one particular moment, but there were some moments that were like an electric shock.  Also, it's ongoing because we have children.  I have reached a point where I'm not attracted physically to him, because in my mind his past and current actions outweigh any attraction.  I have actually experienced disgust when looking at him, thinking about what he was involved in with other women (and the women he chose).  I think I felt disgust before I detached. 

I imagine it's difficult living with her.  Perhaps when you live apart it will be easier for you to not feel that attraction.

[earlgrey]

Thanks everyone for great input - I am working on it.

However on a general take of things I would add the following... .

I am less emotionally detached than I thought.

I am absorbing the irony of the situation. The fact that this r/s seemed so close yet ultimately was not, coupled with the fact that I was unable to bring about enough/any changes to help our couple.You think you have something good, it slips into decline, you want to stop the decline but you are powerless.

Because of the nature of the beast my SO processes the events in a different way and would seem to move forward very quickly.

bpdfamily - like 

[earlgrey]

I think there are various things going on. All I have ‘seen’ these last few days is the golden image of true romance gone wrong. It is a bleak reminder of where I really am. And all the while the diaphanous gowns (I embellish) make me dream... .

Yes there is a physical attraction as there has always been. But what is happening is the realization that our r/s has run its course and I have been unable to prevent its collapse. In fact I am the one ordering the break-up, the end. Pulling the trigger. Like shooting a race horse broken under a jump. It’s  a dreadful conclusion.

And as I am far better as a follower taking this lead is not a comfortable position for me.

Her physical presence is all that remains. Our emotional connection is zero (+/-), our ability to understand each other is zero (really 0), but at an earlier stage (now even perhaps below the surface) I treasured strong feelings for her.  And I suppose I have still been attaching some kind of fantasy to her physical presence.

I know I’m doing the right thing, but at the same time there is waste. Waste of the promise of a loving r/s. And pulling that trigger condemns dreams and promises and hope. It says it’s over, and that’s tough.

I feel very frustrated that my wife has been unable to see things differently. I feel her inaction, her walls of protection as nothing but a hindrance an obstacle to improvement; but that  is the nature of what I am trying to deal with. And that’s tough too.

On bad days it seems all very hopeless, and me anxious; but sharing things here helps, and whether or not I have really got to the bottom of my ‘physical attraction’ issues we will see.

That being said we have many more months of cohabitation in front of us - which I think now is a huge challenge. And probably adding an extra degree or three of difficulty - as if there wasn't enough already.

[purekalm]

  earlgrey,

Believe me, I know it's hard.

Her physical presence is all the remains. Our emotional connection is zero (+/-), our ability to understand each other is zero (really 0), but at an earlier stage (even now perhaps below the surface) I treasure strong feelings for her.

This is exactly the way it is with my stbxh. I had to let go of all the could be's/ would be's, because that's the last thing I held onto. If only... .but I knew, I knew it was over.

I know I'm doing the right thing, but at the same time there is waste. Waste of the promise of a loving r/s. And pulling that trigger condemns dreams and promises and hope. It says it's over, and that's tough.

I'm the one who had to say it was enough in mine as well. It doesn't help when he constantly tries to recycle me after I've made up my mind. Since I've been able to detach mostly, not giving myself the opportunity to say "what if?" or think anywhere along the line of reconciliation I've felt a lot better. I've still had my moments and living together is tough, but I'm sticking with my decision. I think it was hardest to finally decide I'm done because essentially I was the one who ended it, but technically, he did years ago. I just finally said "no, I will not take your abuse and lack of care for me or my son anymore. You've had years to get help and have chosen not to and you knew what you would lose. I hope you get healthy in the future, goodbye." It tears you, and it's definitely a grieving process.

  again earlgrey, I know it's painful. Keep sharing and don't keep it all in. As you mentioned, it's difficult enough right now.

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[earlgrey]

Hi purekalm - Oh! its good to share these tough moments with someone... .

Yep I said enough, its over... .several years of abuse and emotional absence, kids too. It was not what i signed up for.

It took me a long time to get to the divorce stage, and then when its done instead of feeling relief of being able (OK not straight away) to break away, I feel wierd, anxious wierd.

I am not yet fully able to know what i am feeling. Is it just the physical side... .I'm not so sure. Here are some ideas that are just whooshing through my mind... .

I have made a mistake... .

Did the abuse feel familiar (bad Ok) but homey?

I have some deep enbedded mother stuff to sort out, and my wife was (I came to realise) my mother all over again.

This r/s was the one which apparently is red flag stuff (and I'm a pretty mature specimen if you count the rings on my trunk).

I want to understand better, am I scared, alone, lonely... .I know going back is going to solve nothing, and our chaos will just continue, but why do I not feel better about having broken away?

[purekalm]

Hey earlgrey,

It wasn't what I signed up for either, and I endured for longer than I could.

I want to understand better, am I scared, alone, lonely... .I know going back is going to solve nothing, and our chaos will just continue, but why do I not feel better about having broken away?

I felt the exact same things earlgrey. I kept wondering if maybe I made a mistake and I went through all that crap and right when I finally give up he'll get his act together and then it would be all my fault. I didn't like the abuse either, but unfortunately is was something I learned to handle easier than others early on due to my FOO being a mess. My husband is a mix of my parents. He has my dad's BPD traits while also having the airheadedness and certain other traits of my mother. That was a shock to realize, let me tell you... .  When did you find out your wife was like your mother? How did you feel when you realized it?

I think it's normal when we're detaching from a relationship that we invested in for the rest of our lives and the other person didn't take those vows seriously. I was feeling lost, scared because now I'll really be a single mother even though I have been all this time and he's just made things worse. I was and still am sometimes so lonely. There was hardly any companionship from him anyways, but I felt more lonely knowing that I had pulled the plug and now what little I did get from him wasn't coming at all. I knew the chaos would continue as well, and the times I wasn't ready and went back, it was worse. Every single time it escalated. His behaviors, attitude, it magnified. I just wanted to make sure I did everything that I humanly could, and more, yet I was also aware it wasn't supposed to be me doing all the work. Is this how you feel too?

To be honest, I feel better in the mental/emotional sense. I no longer have someone that can screw with me, because I've stopped believing there's a chance and let him go. I still think about it and I don't feel "better" about being alone, but more at peace. I feel like I might have a future and since all my thoughts and energy isn't in trying to placate or deal with another tantrum, I feel lighter in general. It took time to get here, and I've made a lot of mistakes, but I definitely won't go back. He even mentioned about us getting together again just yesterday and that he doesn't want his own place and he doesn't want to leave, but I can't change my mind. I have to let him go and hopefully he'll reach out for help and in the mean time I'm working on repairing the damage done to my son and me. That was a bit difficult for me in the beginning to deal with these attempts to recycle, has your wife tried to yet? Maybe she is just dropping hints? I know women do things a bit different.

It's hard, so very hard. Knowing that I'm now stuck with my parents doesn't make it any better. I pray that one day soon I will be able to be free of all the chaos in my own home and until then I'm just trying to make it day by day. I know that you can too earlgrey, just remember to let yourself feel and grieve because you obviously loved her and it will take time to let all of that go and heal.

  It may be virtual, but I know you need it. =)

Sincerely,

Purekalm

P.S. The comment about the rings on your trunk took me a few times to read until I finally got what you meant! For some reason I kept picturing an elephant and couldn't make sense of the "rings on the trunk".  Don't beat yourself up about the red flags, most people don't know about or see them until they've had to look for help because they are or were in one.

[earlgrey]

Hi purekalm,

yeah! I was thinking mighty oak (alright willow) not Nellie!

You make some great points,and it makes me think of many things, many of which have no answer... .yet! I have met two poeple (potential partners) in my life that have made me go ooaahhhhghhh! In a good sense. There was a powerful attraction. It was not physical. I cannot tell you what it was. One was along time ago and she hung around a bit then just moved on (she was travelling europe). We never got to know each other very well, but the emotional impact (positive) on me was enormous. In fact it stayed with me, and I sought to find the same depth of connection again, with a new partner.

Eventually I did. Other partners never managed to get my emotions fired up, and I would often bail. So eventually I found what i thought to be the real emotional contact, love etc etc all the 'good' stuff. It was good for about 3 years. My family were observers and happy too. One sister sniffed a rat however, but kept it to herself.

Then as we know things go south. And going south I recognise very familiar traits. Anything you do (me or kids) is wrong or bad. There is no respite it is full on 24/7. Nor is there dialogue, there is only one person who is right, etc etc... .and quite quickly (once this dynamic started) I saw myself faced with a very familiar personality, my mother. That this unhappy ending should be bourne out of such a beautiful beginning I still find hard to take, and I am working on finding an explanation.

I detached from my mum over a period of time. For a couple of years I have been wanting to detach from my wife. To begin with, mixed with co-D type traits I couldn't focus on my needs. But I worked on that and got to the point where I could ask for divorce. And now the whiplash... the unexpected WOW I've made a mistake.

But it is not a mistake... .it is me facing 'demons'.

I feel alone right now. My marriage was cr@p but I didn't have to face 'aloneness'. That is what i am doing now and I think it is the alone bit that is hitting me hard. It was wierd, while we were still living together prior divorce talk, I knew my r/s was hopeless, but I had energy and enthusiasm, maybe as an antidote to W's general state of depression/lack of interest. Now my energy levels have dropped, I am not depressed, but the alone bit is dragging me down.

It is good to have your perspective on your couple... .we had the recycling last year. I said divorce 12 months ago and got love bombed. Have to say it was OK, BUT it was so mechanical, like turning on a switch. On came the attention, the sex, the sweetness but it slowly reverts to norm. After a couple of repeats I realised no fundamental changes were taking place. Still no dailogue, a T. lasted 2 visits... .yet all this nonsense cannot make me see things clearly!

I say that, but maybe it is clear, but there are just confusing messages.

I  feel uneasy - yes for sure, I say this is because I am separtaing from my wife. NO separating from wife is actually good, but in doing so you (earlgrey) are heading into dark spooky on your ownsome place. You have no wife here, you are alone again, you have been here before, you didn't like it then, you probably won't like it now.

But talking to purekalm and others is it going to be easier, you (me that is) are going to tame the fears of being alone, and separate the bad r/s from fears of being alone.

Thank you for prompting this diatribe, it might not make a lot of sense it came straight out like that... .but I feel better.

warmest EG

[purekalm]

Hello earlgrey,

Yeah, I don't know why I was thinking elephant, but I got it!

For one thing, I think it's great that you desire an emotional connection and not just a physical one. In this day and age, you don't hear that too often from males. (Not trying to generalize here, I'm not for bashing either sex I think it's stupid.)

That this unhappy ending should be bourne out of such a beautiful beginning I still find hard to take, and I am working on finding an explanation.

I feel you here earlgrey. There was an instant emotional connection I had when I first saw my husband that I had never had with anyone. It was almost like those movies with the slow mo and he told me later on he had felt the same way. It all started out so good, and he was so nice to me, talking or texting me for hours and now it's like pulling teeth trying to get him to talk about anything important unless he wants too. I know that for me, a big reason why all this happened is because of my family, they were an even bigger mess when we got together. I was still co dependent and didn't realize it and because I was always caring for everyone, he was expected to as well. This is the hardest part for me and why I always get so wobbly in my conviction to leave is because I think to myself, if my family weren't constantly in the picture, would he be any different? He changed, really quick, under the stress of his responsibility to me and our son and the pressure of my family. You can never be good enough for my parents, no matter how much they say it isn't true, that's exactly the message they communicate. Just yesterday my mom was saying "well, do you want to move out with him? (husband) I remember you guys saying you never really got the chance to try to make it together." And then, when it suits her or he's not doing something that she deems ok or whatever it's right back to "I would never move out with him. If it was me he'd been gone a long time ago. I won't put up with that crap." (cough) So, that's why she's still with my drug addicted dad who screwed up our entire beginning in life while she physically (mainly) and mentally (by saying she would do stuff she never did) abused me and my siblings and when he got his settlement from his injury he WASTED it on himself? (sigh)

To begin with, mixed with co-D type traits I couldn't focus on my needs.

Me either. I was solely focused on my son and him and less him later on after all the junk but still trying to navigate his constant anger outbursts and tantrums... .ugh... .

I feel alone right now. My marriage was cr@p but I didn't have to face 'aloneness'.

This got to me as well at first and still here and there when I think of it. For me, it's like, I didn't intend to be alone when I decided to say 'I do'. I meant that I would be with him for the rest of my life 'as long as we both shall live'. I've been through so much, I figured I could weather any hard times... .I just didn't expect all of this. Maybe that's part of yours too? Your mind hasn't completely accepted that what you previously believed has to be rewired? I know that's how I feel still slightly, nowhere near the degree it was in the beginning. 

After a couple of repeats I realised no fundamental changes were taking place.

This is what I also realized, and kicked myself whenever I would write on here "this is it" and then go back. I didn't want to come back here because I felt I deserved my pain for being an idiot! I know it won't change, but it didn't stop me from wanting it too. I believe like me, you know/knew how clear things are, yet you haven't been able to 100% accept that, and to me that's normal. In a more average relationship you would be able to work out differences and help each other through major crisis, but in this kind it's, it's just all one sided and without the other admitting they need help and getting it there isn't much you or I can do.

No problem earlgrey! Sometimes I have to say something out loud to really internalize it or understand. I'm happy to help if I can at all. For me sometimes I just need a hug or a shoulder to cry on and no offer of help besides that and others I could really use advice. =)

I think it's going to suck being alone at first, especially after you thought that wouldn't happen, but that you'll be able to accept it in time and hopefully be able to work on your issues with your mother and get to a healthier, happier place. I know that's what I'm working toward, no more chaos!

   A good hug helps healing. 

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[earlgrey]

Feeling much better, thanks for being there purekalm 

I dipped right down a couple of days ago, getting really confused about what i wanted... .but it was a blip, things look much clearer now. 

Lots of similarities, it is good to have another story to work with.

Like you we also used to talk for hours (that for me was a big positive sign), and now nothing. With hindsight, I could not say now how 'intimate' our conversations were at the time. Were we talking about ourselves and desires and feelings, or were we talking impersonal stuff, holidays and restaurants?

There was an instant emotional connection I had when I first saw my husband that I had never had with anyone.

(Can't get the source of the quote!)

This is one bit that I really get, but do not understand. I suppose it is good old love at first sight... .it is, but I think there is something, unconscious maybe, that is doing the driving. How can you feel so attracted by someone you know nothing about. Old brain, or something is recognising something familar and getting excited. If this initial attraction went on to deliver happy ever after, then brilliant. But it doesn't. It would seem to deliver a prelived toxic (in my case) r/s - my mother. Did your r/s eventaully seem like a repeat of something from before, despite the awesome start?

I figured I could weather any hard times

I think in a reciprocal healthy environment this is normal... .but when there are only hard times, well the r/s takes on a different dynamic and the love/goodwill necessary to get you through tough times gets hard to find. During the early days good times, I am now beginning to question what was really happening. My sister recently told me about an episode  she observed a long time ago... .basically I was doing a lot of stuff and my wife was simply watching, idling. She thought this is unfriendly/strange/very oneside... .I noticed nothing! At the time I noticed nothing, but now (not that I recall that incident) I know the imbalanced nature of the thing. I (we?) perhaps lived through a dreamlike r/s with more fantasy ideals going on than actual feet on the ground happenings.

I am sure I will bounce up and down for still a while more, but this weekend things are looking good. Yes I will be on my own, but D7 and S18 will be about someplace and I love them very much. If you can tame the spooks of being alone, being alone is probably not so bad.

Certainly much better than being unloved and toxified!

Hugs to you too PK and thanks

[purekalm]

Hello again earlgrey,

You're welcome earlgrey. Many a person has been there for me here in my big ol mess. 

For me, we talked a lot about everything, from personal to impersonal and I remember saying to one of my sisters early on that I thought he would be the one I married. Well, I was right about that, but... .

For the source of the quote you have to write [ quote = earlgrey ]  But, it has to be all together and whoever's name it is you're trying to quote. Took me a bit to figure out as well!

This is one bit that I really get, but do not understand. ... .How can you feel so attracted to someone you know nothing about.

I've wondered about this myself. I mean, that was literally the first time I had seen him. I hadn't even talked to him because I didn't know anything about him. I actually ignored him for a couple months because I didn't know why I had felt that way. It bothered me because I wasn't sure what to make of it. I had heard of people who felt like that and like you said, "happily ever after". I began to wonder, could this be for me? Really? Well, no, for so many reasons... .

Yeah, it felt like being with both my parents all over again. The suicide threats, tantrums, childish behavior, all or nothing, him and no one else, acting like I'm the only one who understands then backtracking saying he never said what he had to begin with, belittling me, lying, treating me less than, idealizing and devaluing, all the things (not quite all) that I had to endure with my parents growing up. There was so much stuff in the beginning that I glossed over and made excuses for, and I wish I hadn't. But, there's nothing I can do about that now, just have to work on what I can at the moment. For me, he generally seemed like a good guy and no one in my family really saw anything off, until right after we were married.

... .but when there are only hard times, well the r/s takes on a different dynamic and the love/goodwil necessary to get you through tough times gets hard to find.

Yeah, because that seems like what happened extremely quickly. I thought I finally found someone who could love me for me, and then it changed so drastic so quick, I was kind of left dumbstruck at first. I was like, wait a minute, who is this? All I had ever wanted was the unconditional love I had never received from my parents and I never got that. Everything was still conditional with him. When I would ask him why he loved me, he would get frustrated like he didn't know what to say. Then, he would tell me all the things I did for him. He only loved me for what I could offer? So, why did he love or think he loved me to begin with? Was it just physical for him? Because that's not love, it's lust. There's so much I can see in hindsight, so much.

If you can tame the spooks of being alone, being alone is probably not so bad.Certainly much better than being unloved and toxified!

I agree. Also, you have all that clutter in your brain gone from constantly being on edge and wondering what's going to happen next, or knowing and dreading it that you can THINK again! I rather like being alone most of the time so it's totally fine with me for the most part. I'm human too though and love to make people laugh and have a good laugh myself. We'll make it through earlgrey. It will definitely be difficult, but we'll make it through and find out that out of the fog, life isn't so bad. 

  Purekalm

[earlgrey]

All I had ever wanted was the unconditional love I had never received from my parents and I never got that.

I was on the same quest.

Do you think your STBex actually delivered at some early stage of your r/s?

I have the feeling I was carrying the "love load", I was happy and I thought in love, but I have no real recollection of exactly what was going on. I cannot recall any events that might have indicated loving intentions were going both ways. I was smitten by some kind of feeling generated by not my my gf (at the time) but by my own feelings of having discovered something I was missing... .exactly what that is/was needs more work from me.

I remember feeling good but I couldn't tell you why.

Looking very rationally at the early days I try to recall the set up. I was very attentive and pretty much financed most things, redid her bathroom and kitchen, cooked all weekend and loved it... .I noticed her place had nothing of me. Yeah lots of old photos around the place... .could I find one of me?

[purekalm]

Hello earlgrey,

Do you think your STBex actually delivered at some early stage of your r/s?

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. He was nice to me, but there were so many signs that he was not the right guy early on and I didn't have any dating advice, no experience in dating and was completely naive to the whole thing. I think that I was so happy he was being kind to me, and it wasn't something I experienced very often that I went with it and I'm not sure... .I would have told you that I loved him. That's how I felt. The worst part is, I could have spared myself because not only did my pastors at the time warn me to take it slower but multiple people at work came to me, including a boss, to ask me if I was sure that I wanted to marry him. (He blabbed it all over work.) I think my boss in particular knew that I was naive and had no idea what I was getting myself into or what kind of guy he was, but I didn't understand. I was upset like, wow I finally am going to have someone love me back, why is that bad? Well, now I know. I wish I had known all I know now so I would never have married him, but it's all too late for that now and I just have to keep picking up pieces and trying to repair the many things that have been broken.

I remember feeling good but I couldn't tell you why.

Maybe, like me, someone giving you the attention you craved, even in small amounts, was enough to buoy your spirits and exaggerate the reality of the situation? You said you don't like being alone, so maybe you latched on too early and wasn't as concerned with how 'much' she was returning, just that it was enough to help you believe it was all working out?

I was very attentive and pretty much financed most things... .

I did the same, while not as much money was spent. I'm the one who bought our wedding rings and paid for the license to get married and all that. Plus, I had a vehicle and the place that he moved into, etc. He never even got me an engagement ring or asked me to marry him. I sitll think, what? at this sometimes. We were just talking and kind of agreed to get married. Man, looking back it's like, no wonder everything is such a mess! It's all my fault. Yes, he may have done all the damage, but I chose him in the first place. No, I didn't understand a lot back then, but the same goes for a crime right? If you do it unknowingly the punishment isn't as severe as if you did it knowingly, but you're still punished. That's how I feel.

I hope you could find one photo of you. That would add to the aggravation if not I know.

Wishing you well,

Purekalm

P.S. Sorry if I seem a bit off, I'm sick and feel terrible.

[C.Stein]

I remember feeling good but I couldn't tell you why.

Perhaps this.  It feels good to be needed and appreciated.  This is especially true if you are the caretaker/codependent type.  If you have also struggled with low self-worth this will be like a drug and you will bend over backwards to keep that feeling alive ... .the feeling of worth.   But as with any drug you will build a tolerance, especially when you discover that drug has been stepped on.

It appears you have fallen into the same trap as I did.  You received something from her that you desperately wanted/needed and you built a false persona around her in order to maintain this.  As time went on you began to realize (subconsciously or not) that you were pouring water (love) into a bucket with holes.

[earlgrey]

Perhaps this.  It feels good to be needed and appreciated.  

Perverse is a word that comes to mind 

Prior to this r/s with my uN/BPDw... .I had experienced other significant r/s, and often I was needed and appreciated... .loved even, by my SO.

And did I feel good, care... .NOPE not one bit. More often than not this attention would make me run.

It has only been the early part of the r/s with my uN/BPDw that has made me feel emotionally connected.

Work in progress... .

[earlgrey]

@purekalm... .sorry you are feeling a bit off... .get well soon

[C.Stein]

It has only been the early part of the r/s with my uN/BPDw that has made me feel emotionally connected.

Why?  Because she made you feel wanted, needed, appreciated in ways you never felt before?  How exactly did she emotionally connect to you?  Try to answer that last question without reference to the physical components.

[Hlinthewiking]

How didn't I see this post before... .

I can definitely relate to this.

My exBPDgf had a perfect body in my standards, I remember when I was a teenager thinking what I considered beautiful and it was like she was my dreams come true. Her face was not perfect, though I always considered her pretty, but after I fell for her on out, I would not choose anyone else in the world over her if I could.

In bed she also drove me crazy, she would do anything I wanted (when she felt like it), it was so good and so intense I don't even consider it sex in the same way as I had with other women. I haven't been sexually satisfied properly since we broke up.

Initially I though it was a pure physical thing, but then I'v been with other beautiful women and I would keep thinking about her and something would always be missing. I love all her details, even things usual people might even call defects, the only problems with her were her negativity, projection and abuse towards me.

Sometimes I feel like it was a deal made with the devil and he made a perfect women custom ordered to me but with a "small catch"... .

I personally think the looks may trigger it (love), but what comes along with it is what we truly love. Looks might enhance it and sustain these emotions, but if we could clone our partners without their defects I think we would still miss our original defective ones.

I regularly feel a lot of shame and self loathing because of my shallowness, I wish I was different, but I cannot be with someone I do not feel attracted to.It's not only with others, it's even more with myself. I gave my first kiss at 19 and lost my virginity at 22 because I was fat and didn't feel worth of someone until I met my own standards. I devoted years of my life to nutrition and sports and I didn't pursue anyone until I had a six pack and looked athletic.

[C.Stein]

How exactly did she emotionally connect to you?  Try to answer that last question without reference to the physical components.

If I may expand on this, looking at the potential physical component.

Was the physical connection somehow special, unique in a way that led you to feel more emotionally connected to her?  Did that special physical connection act as a bridge to the emotions?

I can understand this type of bridge somewhat.  As my life has unfolded over the past 5 decades I have experienced major heartbreak twice in my adult life (before the most recent one), and many other minor heartbreaks.  As a result of this I believe I have generally become more emotionally guarded and reserved.  Being an introvert this was also not a hard path for me to follow.  The times I have allowed myself to become less emotionally guarded, to allow a deep emotional connection to take place is during physical intimacy.  This in a way creates a bridge and gate through the wall of defenses outside of the bedroom.  It is not that I don't connect emotionally outside the bedroom but rather the relative strength of the connection is different.  I would liken it to opening the flood gate a little more in the bedroom and a little less outside of it.  As the bond and trust strengthens I allow that flood gate to stay more and more open.

Is this healthy ... .I don't know?  What I do know is I emotionally connected to my ex in ways I have never connected to another human being, save perhaps one close second.  This connection, the "feeling" of emotional bonding was strongest during some of our physical intimacy, but certainly not all.  However it helped to create a bridge that allowed me to be less guarded, more open, more vulnerable, more trusting outside of the bedroom.

The thing is in my last relationship my ex was taking the bridge apart faster than I could build it.  Even so, she was one of the very few who I have allowed inside the wall, and not just through the gate either ... .all the way into the center of the fortress, emotionally speaking.

So the question is ... .was there a true emotional bond outside of the one experienced in the bedroom?  I believe for me there was in a way, but I don't believe that was the case for her.  I have come to believe her emotions/feelings/love were literally created and sustained in the bedroom and as a result were not true and genuine feelings.  This conclusion is supported by things she has said and done.

The bridge that was built between us, the bridge I built, was unfortunately one way.  For a true connection and bond to happen the bridge needs to be built by both people and travel on the bridge is unrestricted.  I thought I had found that type of connection with her but I think all I was seeing in her was my own connection reflected back to me.  The bridge was built entirely by me.


Then there is the type of connection that is discussed in this thread.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=294329.0;all

[earlgrey]

To CS

How exactly did she emotionally connect to you? 

Hi CS... .OK here's what I think; she didn't (connect to me), and that worked for me, certainly in the beginning.

I was attracted to her... .from the first date I was optimistic. Our social/cultural background was similar, so we could share familiar experiences and ideals. We also had similar interests. In early days these things were +ve for me. We could talk for hours etc etc (and FWIW physical attraction worked happily both ways)

I started slowly to care for her, playing the role of attentionate bf. I was feeling good, and as time went by things for me were only getting better. What I did not see was that she was happily absorbing my attention, and I was happily giving. I think I thrived in such a situation because (I now realise) getting attention, being the recipient of 'love' makes me feel engulfed and wanting out. And here I was getting none, so my run-away buttons were not being activated.

Here I could give all I wanted;  'it' (my giving) was taken and perhaps even appreciated. She was not a giver, so being with someone (me) who was happy not to receive... .it was win win!

Nothing seemed amiss to me, she was not needy or demanding or needing fixing (she seemed pretty together ), and apart from the unequal distribution of attention which I was unable to notice anyhow, there was no obvious (to me) problem or abuse during this period.

Then came D and marriage and the dynamic shifted. (Or perhaps it was caused by my eventual request for attention, some sort of reciprocal participation by my w. in the r/s. ) There now appeared to me quite vividly the unequal distribution of effort, care and attention in the r/s  (which unwittingly I had approved by my previous 'acceptance'. This ‘emotional unavailability’ (a phrase which described well the situation) became an issue which was just simply not a subject for discussion – flat refusals. Add to that a kind of 'depression' and a general lack of interest in our daily life, and the abuse,  and I realise the r/s is not the perfect one it seemed at the start.

[earlgrey]

Was the physical connection somehow special, unique in a way that led you to feel more emotionally connected to her?  Did that special physical connection act as a bridge to the emotions?

OK this is getting interesting. I get the bridge analogy, and however we construct it, it is constructed, it needs to allow us to connect to the other, and go both ways!
I don’t know what builds my bridge, all I do know is that I very seldom find one!

With this latest r/s, the one I reckon is N/BPD and causing me to be here, I built a beautiful bridge! I got emotionally involved by some kind of simple desire to be there emotionally. It was not via the bedroom or sex or other physical means, it was, or at least felt like just a simple feeling of serenity and safety and wellbeing being there. That was love in my book. I seem to think I opened up, certainly didn’t want to run-away, it just felt so right. And why I trusted it, was because it didn’t use some ‘external’ means of support…... like clothes (we are beautiful people!) or money or sex or parties. It seemed to me to be a real human connection! 

But I also discovered eventually my connection was only going one way.

I’d known previously an intense sexual r/s, we were pretty good on most fronts, but the sex dominated the r/s (no pun intended). For me this did not lead to a deepening of the r/s, in fact I obsessed about other bits of the r/s which were not right and bailed out.

[C.Stein]

Here I could give all I wanted;  'it' (my giving) was taken and perhaps even appreciated. She was not a giver, so being with someone (me) who was happy not to receive... .it was win win!

So initially the emotional bond was really one way and yours.  You gave and she received.  My relationship was somewhat like this where I would emotionally put in the effort and she essentially gave nothing in return.  She did try, but her idea of emotional intimacy was very highschoolish ... .very shallow.

Nothing seemed amiss to me, she was not needy or demanding or needing fixing (she seemed pretty together ), and apart from the unequal distribution of attention which I was unable to notice anyhow, there was no obvious (to me) problem or abuse during this period.

Mine was a bit needy, again in a very highschoolish way.  I have good boundaries when it comes to stuff like that so this wasn't a problem for me.  For me the beginning of my relationship, first 4-6 months, was the worst and best part of it, until the last 9 months or so.  There was no real idealization period where everything was fantastical and wondrous.  It was also during those first months when the BPD type behavior and traits were the most prominent.

Then came D and marriage and the dynamic shifted. (Or perhaps it was caused by my eventual request for attention, some sort of reciprocal participation by my w. in the r/s. ) There now appeared to me quite vividly the unequal distribution of effort, care and attention in the r/s  (which unwittingly I had approved by my previous 'acceptance'.

Why?  Why did things change for you?  What happened where once you were happy to not receive the same attention you were giving her shift to you wanting at least equal reciprocation?  Why would you want something that once caused you to feel engulfed?

I know for me what was missing in my life was a romantic and emotionally intimate connection.  Like you I was happy to give more than I got in return as long as it was appreciated ... .and it was for the most part.  I had a lot to give and she happily took it all, like a bone dry sponge soaking up water.  As time went on this one sided nature of the relationship became a huge imbalance, coupled with the emotional turmoil and anxiety her behavior caused within me, caused me to "retreat" to a safe distance emotionally and as a consequence physically as well.  My bucket of water was drying up and she wasn't replenishing the water she absorbed.

I believe now I was subconsciously acting to protect myself ... .I was learning that being emotionally close to her also meant being hurt by her.  This was not what I wanted, this was not why I got into the relationship.  Initially I believed she was capable of being an equal part of the emotional connection I wanted so much ... .and in many ways she was initially.  I question now if she was just playing the role I cast for her.

OK this is getting interesting. I get the bridge analogy, and however we construct it, it is constructed, it needs to allow us to connect to the other, and go both ways!
I don’t know what builds my bridge, all I do know is that I very seldom find one!

From what you said above it sounds like the ability to give without feeling the need to give and without feeling "out-gived" by the other person.  I would say these conditions probably don't happen often.  Also worth noting the very nature of this type of connection is imbalanced to begin with.  It also puts you in a position of control.  The level and depth of your emotional involvement were on your terms.  You felt no pressure to be or do anything you didn't want to do ... .you were in control.  In other relationships there were expectations and requirements, which IMO is perfectly normal and healthy, but it also means you have to relinquish some control.

But I also discovered eventually my connection was only going one way.

This brings us back to control.  As you began to resent the lack of reciprocation and your inability to change it, you essentially lost control.  You wanted something more from her now, for whatever reason, and she is incapable of giving it and there is nothing you can do to change that.  

I’d known previously an intense sexual r/s, we were pretty good on most fronts, but the sex dominated the r/s (no pun intended). For me this did not lead to a deepening of the r/s, in fact I obsessed about other bits of the r/s which were not right and bailed out.

The sex, no matter how good it is, is never enough to sustain a relationship.  Relationships that heavily stress the sex are relationships that are doomed to fail.  For me the sex, that which isn't just sex for fun, strengthens the emotional bond.  It isn't "making love" it is expressing love for me and it requires two people expressing that love equally.  Sex is such a small piece of a healthy and sustainable relationship which is why I believe many relationships fail, because too much importance is attributed to the sex.  Been there myself a time or two although I was the one who got bailed on in almost every case.

[earlgrey]

Hi CS and appreciate these exchanges. A lot of stuff so might take it bit by bit.

Why?  Why did things change for you?  What happened where once you were happy to not receive the same attention you were giving her shift to you wanting at least equal reciprocation?  Why would you want something that once caused you to feel engulfed?

Yes I get engulfed quite easily. Our honeymoon lasted about 2-3 years, over that period I guess I must have started to feel less threatened, and pretty safe. Wedding night I remember the fight, I was just trying to say yoohoo I'm here too. Nothing. Again a while later on a weekend away, no recognition... .my frustration and subsequent fight. I had no idea what was going on, but in my slow way, I was now ready for some attention.

What happened was that my slow mellowing was not met with equal and opposite mellowing, so when I said hey lets modify the rules a bit, I was met with What the heck. WYSIWYG. Move on there ain't nothing to see round here. Short shrift.

The r/s has stayed very firmly on its initial limited structure, so while I am ready for slow change and growth, I am alone in this request, and we have reached the limit of our r/s.

As time went on this one sided nature of the relationship became a huge imbalance, coupled with the emotional turmoil and anxiety her behavior caused within me, caused me to "retreat" to a safe distance emotionally and as a consequence physically as well.  My bucket of water was drying up and she wasn't replenishing the water she absorbed.

Yep! same here. Post wedding I had about 12/18 months of tryng to work out what was going on, and then like you I started "retreating". This retreat is the only part of the r/s STBex can relate to and so I am naturally the bad guy.

This brings us back to control.  As you began to resent the lack of reciprocation and your inability to change it, you essentially lost control.  You wanted something more from her now, for whatever reason, and she is incapable of giving it and there is nothing you can do to change that. 

Ah! yes that feels familiar. I was powerless (but without accepting it)... .I was asking for things and these things were being flatly denied. I was going mad... ."I've done all this you, and you don't even do that". It was a terrible period, made worse by the fact that they were all denied, and I was just being overly sensitive, and never ever could the matter be discussed. Oh! I want to scream even now 

I'm glad I've learned a bit, because that period was one to move quickly on from.

[earlgrey]

... .caused me to "retreat" to a safe distance emotionally and as a consequence physically as well.

Here our r/s was different. I was emotionally backing off, and while STBex was maybe aware (maybe indifferent) she would mention nothing. No complaints no remarks. By now I  could separate emotions from sex, (not a problem for her either) and so jointly sex remained totally regular. I have a feeling this for her was a way to rationalise the normalness /goodness of our r/s. While for me I had regular unemotional sex.

Had I been satisfied with such a set up, I am sure it would have ticked on like that for some time... .though my research suggests that eventully a pwBPD will get bored of the r/s and end it.