Finding something to validate

[empath]

My husband has recently stepped away an aspect of his ministry at church. As we were discussing our marriage issues, he said that I was being controlling and manipulative and wanted him to give up his ministry. I asked for an example of this, and he said that I had asked him recently to not do this ministry for the sake of our relationship. I said that I had not said that, and I was confused about when he thought I had. He said that he distinctly remembers the conversation... .and wrote it in his journal. Then he talked with his therapist and mentor about whether it was a good idea. So I asked him to show me in the journal. He went and got the journal. Looked... .  looked... .  looked... .  He couldn't find it. I asked about the timeframe and found out it was in a highly emotionally charged conversation. (I thought it probably was... .) So, he felt like he was going crazy - totally normal reaction to this kind of thing. He had to admit that I wasn't controlling or manipulative, but he was still thinking that he might be crazy.

I decided that the best course of action was to say that he had done a good thing in deciding to step away from the ministry for a time. I didn't want to push the 'you're wrong/crazy/disordered' idea any further. As he was thinking about it afterward, he thought that there was a spiritual component to it. I said that there probably was; his pastor has been telling him that we are headed for divorce for about a year now. I also said that there are a lot of different things that seem to be combining in a particular way that create our problem (attitudes, beliefs, personality, etc).  He agreed and went on to describe how they can be problems!

[Woods77]

Could you validate the reasoning rather than the choice? Ie, yes I can understand why you think its a good idea as you want to get better. Look at the thoughts and valid them, rather than the actions, if possible.

In regard to remembering things that didnt happen, it can make you question what happened yourself. Very difficult, but you know what happened, you didnt say that. It does seem to be part of BPD to remember things differently to what happened, perhaps you could try explaining that is part of the illness? If he is feeling like he is going mad, that could alleviate him a bit into knowing that is part of the illness.

Just some thoughts, hope it helps in some small way.

[gotbushels]

In regard to remembering things that didnt happen, it can make you question what happened yourself.

I agree with this. It helps to write important things down. It seems like things around gaslighting. When I wrote things down, it helped me deal with this.


Here's some ideas for validating empath. 

As we were discussing our marriage issues, he said that I was being controlling and manipulative and wanted him to give up his ministry.

If you ask him why he called you controlling and manipulative in a non-challenging way, you may be able to validate the feelings underneath. Remember that when we ask someone to do something difficult, that person can get upset. That's okay. I look at this as pwBPDs being more sensitive to it. If I thought someone asked me to give up my ministry, I would be really upset, and I'm not a pwBPD.   

My husband has recently stepped away an aspect of his ministry at church.

Again, if you ask him why he recently stepped away, you may be able to then validate his response. If you're having to ask a lot like this, I encourage you to stay non-challenging in your tone.

So, he felt like he was going crazy - totally normal reaction to this kind of thing. He had to admit that I wasn't controlling or manipulative, but he was still thinking that he might be crazy.

The journal here functions to help him know what's real and what isn't. So he's helping himself. I personally think this is a very good and desirable act. You can validate the action of keeping and referring to the journal. You can then also praise him for the effective usage of the journal. E.g., "I see you're keeping the journal and using it for when we're both not sure about something (the validation), I think that's a good idea (the praise)."

I decided that the best course of action was to say that he had done a good thing in deciding to step away from the ministry for a time.

Well done with the somewhat neutral-to-positive expression of something you want.

I didn't want to push the 'you're wrong/crazy/disordered' idea any further.

Well done not pursuing this. I don't think it would have been productive.

[Notwendy]

My H has reported things that I have said or done that never happened. He would sound so convincing that I thought I had gone crazy.

Some of it, I think , was his own bad feelings about not being present for his own family. That has been an ongoing issue as he tends to spend a lot of time at work or on his own interests. This was difficult when the kids were little. He would work long hours, then spend all day on the weekends playing golf. I do recall saying something about it at times, but not in the line of giving all of it up. Perhaps it was black and white thinking, along with some projection that turned it into the extreme.

I assumed that he would assume ( as I expected most people to assume ) that it is unreasonable to expect someone to stop doing anything else to stay home all the time. Asking him if he could be home from work at a reasonable hour to spend some time with us does not mean " I don't want you to have a career" . Asking him to not play golf for one day for a family event does not mean expecting him to stop playing altogether.

Yet in arguments he would clearly recall events where I showed up at his workplace demanding he leave now. I don't know how he imagined that happened, because it didn't. Maybe I showed up to drop something off or ask him to do something later, but I would not have done that- and he made it into that? Not quite understanding how this happened, I made sure to not ever go to his work, even though the other spouses would go there to meet their husbands/wives for lunch or a break if they could ( it was acceptable for spouses to do that). I just didn't feel welcome anymore as he reacted with hostility to that.

He eventually lost interest in golfing as much as he did, still likes it but not as often. However, he didn't say that to me- he said " you made me quit golf".

I really wonder if this kind of thing is about poor boundaries. He tends to over commit at work and then feels badly about not being home as much. Then, if I say anything about it, he feels worse. Perhaps he thinks I am the source of those feelings. Perhaps your H also felt badly about his over commitment to the ministry and is projecting these feelings on you. It makes it even more confusing because, in general, your H's job- and most jobs- are doing very good things to help other people in some way, to support the family, and it is easy to justify spending time at them.

[empath]

Gotbushels, one of the things I learned in my counseling classes was that "why" questions tend to be viewed as challenges, so I try to avoid them if I can. He also was very embarrassed and ashamed about what was in the journal; it's usually about his feelings about situations. I thought it was unusual for him to write down a description of am event.

Notwendy, it's not really a huge commitment in terms of time, but it does mean that he can't just up and quit. His pastor is telling him that I am trying to control him which doesn't help matters.

[Notwendy]

Empath, sounds like there might be some triangulation going on here. Your H may be venting to his pastor, who only hears his version of it.

I don't know if one can stop that- he's going to do what he's going to do.

Maybe the point to validate is not that you say something about his choices, but his ability or right to make that choice.

" I am confident that you will make the right decision for you about the ministry"

I wouldn't spend time debating what you said or didn't say in the past. For me, these have been circular arguments that don't work because the story is in my H's own head and he can be absolutely convinced that I said something I didn't. For me, I don't want to argue over fiction. Sometimes when I don't respond or give energy to the accusations ( which they are) they tend to dissipate some.

"oh honey, I have faith in your ability to make the best decision for you about the ministry"

[gotbushels]

Gotbushels, one of the things I learned in my counseling classes was that "why" questions tend to be viewed as challenges, so I try to avoid them if I can.

I hear you. Yes you're certainly right there, they can be construed as challenges. Therefore it's important not to question the legitimacy of what they're saying. No worries there.  May I ask how you work to understand what he's thinking or feeling?

[WendyDavid]

I'm very glad I found this thread.  I didn't know this happened to others. And I'm learning some things too.

Prior to my husband's diagnosis, he would tell me about conversations with other people and describe where he was, who was there, what was said, etc.  The other person would deny it, and of course, I sided with my husband because I'm committed to him.  Then he did those same things to me, and I would go nuts not knowing if my memory was false, or his.

Then I found out all the secrets he had from me (to this day I don't know what is true).  I found out he was telling people about my medical history.  So I took him off my hippa forms.  Weeks later, he thanked me for putting him back on the hippa forms.  I freaked out!  I contacted my doctors and they said he was removed.  When I went back to my husband and confirmed his story was false, he freaked out.  He had physical reactions (trouble breathing, dizziness) to the realization that his memories were not true.  I'm pretty sure he was being honest about having vivid memories of a conversation where I changed my mind about the hippa forms.  He's been trying to be honest since I've exposed almost all of his secrets by now.  And his physical reaction seemed genuine.  I've known him for almost 20 years, so I'm sure about his real reactions.

I feel so bad for him when this false memory stuff happens.  Now that he knows he has BPD, he doesn't trust himself.  Low self-esteem has plummeted to zero self-esteem.  That is when he is most dangerous.  I want the false memory stuff to stop so he can self-reflect and make better choices, but he doesn't even trust his own brain.

[formflier]

Avoid why... .like the plague...

My favorite for a long time... ."Help me understand... ."

note... ."help me understand why... ."   bad

"help me understand your decision to step away from ministry"

More later.

FF

[empath]

In this case, he brought up his decision to step out of ministry. So, I said that I had been meaning to ask about that because I was wondering how that came about and I was surprised.

Empath, sounds like there might be some triangulation going on here.

I'm not sure about the venting, but he does go to other people for their opinions about me. And tells me what they say about me. I've called it triangulation, too. Unfortunately, I can't control what he says to them; I have asked him not to do that. I just have to do damage control sometimes; then people are confused.

[formflier]

And tells me what they say about me. I've called it triangulation, too. Unfortunately, I can't control what he says to them; I have asked him not to do that. I just have to do damage control sometimes; then people are confused.

Bigtime boundary issue.

In no particular order.

Why do you have to do damage control?  Let him do... what he will do.  Let others believe... .what they will believe.

If someone asks about you... .tell them.  If they ask why you hubby said something, redirect them to your hubby.

When you hubby wants to tell you what others have said about you, don't listen.  Walk away. 

Likely it needs 1 clear explanation.  "If I want to know the opinions of others, I will ask.  Thank you for the concern and effort."

Something along those lines.

Boundaries go both ways.  You should take your hands of his controls... .you are responsible for keeping his hands of your controls (not whether or not he tries).

FF

[empath]

Why do you have to do damage control?  Let him do... what he will do.  Let others believe... .what they will believe.

I work with these people and do ministry with them. They are pushing me to be more involved; sometimes, they tell me what my husband has shared with them about me. They are generally expressing concern for me, so I tell them about me. I'm glad that they actually ask - some people just don't ask, I don't worry to much about that. I also don't offer any explanations as to why he says the things he does. Just let it lie, not my problem. My responsibility is to share about me.

Unless they want to know about how our marriage issues are going and are in a position to need to know, then I can share about that.

[gotbushels]

Avoid why... .like the plague...

FF I understand why you'd say that. You're certainly right, it can lead to arguments and trouble.

I hope you'll consider that "why" is basically the only way you can reach things like wants and feelings. You lose a potential gold mine of validation targets if you avoid whys.

I hope a different perspective helps in encouraging you to look at this. If a work partner brings you a problem to solve, don't you have a right to ask why? If your SO brings something for you to deal with, you have a right to ask why. That's a limit of mutual respect. This doesn't mean you bark at them, this means asking why in a way that won't invite attack.

Here's two ways of asking why:
"What did I do?"
"How come you're so upset with me?"
Not in a defensive way, but in an interested way.

This link helps with understanding this. Scroll the video to 12:10 minutes.

No problem if you want to avoid this, it's just a bit of a shame--I feel--because it can help your conversation.

[formflier]

 

If we are talking about "asking the question why"... .without using the word... .then I am totally onboard with the thought or point.

If we are talking about using the word "why"... .I'm going to stick with being "generally against it".

Now... .since we are on a board that seeks to teach others about how to deal with those with "BPD traits"... .I'm going to taking a stronger stand and say "avoid "why" like the plague".  I'm not so interested in the "technicalities" of not saying it, but that people "understand" why to avoid saying why with pwBPD.

Most pwBPD are oversensitive and they attract many nons that are very logical and "overly blunt" or "not sensitive" to the feelings of others.  The bigger point about avoiding "why" is to be deliberate about taking the pwBPDs communication needs into account

It's about emotional leadership.  The pwBPD is not going to be able to lead the r/s to a better place.  It's just not going to happen.

So... .yes... .100% on board to seek to understand "why" someone does something.  Just avoid the word. 

"Can you tell me how you arrived at this decision?"

"I appreciate the effort you a have put into this decision.  Can you share your thought process with me?"

"I'd love to hear your top three things that led you to this decision"  (I would use something like this in a work situation).  You don't want to know the entire story... .be brief... .give me your top items.

Think about being an overly sensitive person.  You know that you did something outlandish and feel shame or guilt about that.  In your mind you are starting to blame others for your actions.

"Why did you do (fill in the blank)?"

versus

"Hey... .glad to see you.  Looks like you had quite a day.  If you have time, it would mean a lot to me if you would share your thoughts about (fill in blank)"

I'm open to thoughts and comments.

FF

[formflier]

Here's two ways of asking why:
"What did I do?"
"How come you're so upset with me?"
Not in a defensive way, but in an interested way.
 

Interested way... .yes yes yes.  Attitude is much more important than the actual words.  pwBPD can sense it.

OK... .here comes FF and "good better best".

I'm not saying the word tracks are right or wrong... .but... .

What did I do?  This is a fastball for someone that is looking to assign blame.  Who does that more than they should?  pwBPD.  How could this be said better without "inviting blame"

How come you are upset with me

What happens if they are not upset?  Note:  I would find this question personally triggering because a "judgement" has been made that I am upset. 

"Is there an emotion you are trying to express?"

This seems much more "tentative" and "open ended"

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

they tell me what my husband has shared with them about me. 

Boundaries!

Redirect them to encourage your husband to talk directly to you about this, vice sending messages through surrogates.

They should also know to keep a confidence and not pass info to you.

Boundaries goes both ways!

Bottom line:  You are not interested in carrying a tale or having one carried to you.  If your friends wish to do this with others... .that' not your issue to worry about.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Most pwBPD are oversensitive and they attract many nons that are very logical and "overly blunt" or "not sensitive" to the feelings of others.  The bigger point about avoiding "why" is to be deliberate about taking the pwBPDs communication needs into account

It's about emotional leadership.  The pwBPD is not going to be able to lead the r/s to a better place.  It's just not going to happen.


Wow, ain't this the truth! It's taken me years to see my part in this dynamic of being the one that's logical, blunt and not sensitive to others' feelings. I really care about the feelings of other people, yet at the same time, I wonder why they have to be so "irrational" and "overly emotional."

I had an epiphany about validating my husband's emotions last night. It had been a long time since he'd had a meltdown. I now see it coming and no longer take the bait, so I've been able to diffuse things lately so that it never gets to that point.

Well, one of the cats got out last night and I said, "The door wasn't shut." (This has been an issue for me. He isn't mindful about completely shutting the door that leads to the laundry room and we have predators here that would love to make a meal out of our cats.) He immediately denied that it was him. I said, "You were doing laundry." Then rage ensued.

I said, "I'm not interested in being raged at" and left. He followed me around and I repeated my statement. Later when he calmed down, I tried to validate his emotion, but he took it as I was claiming that he was always the cause of our problems (which usually is true). It dawned on me that by me trying to validate his emotion, he felt vulnerable and his years of working as a lawyer trained him not to disclose his emotions. (However, you can read him like a roadmap--I sure wouldn't have wanted him to be my lawyer!)
 

[formflier]

 
Full disclosure:  Laughed my a$$ off at Cat not wanting him to be her lawyer!   

I gravitated towards the military where short... .direct... .authoritative communication styles ruled the day.  Definitely was my comfort zone.

Sure I was fine about "being emotional"... .but only if it was "rational".

So... .if I took an AMCROSS to one of my Sailors that they had a family tragedy back home... .I was fine to stay and comfort them... .perhaps even cry with them.  That's normal.

AMCROSS is an american red cross message from back home... .way before email and that kind of thing.

Being emotional about something you made up in your head (but really believed was real) was "irrational" to me.

FF

[empath]

Redirect them to encourage your husband to talk directly to you about this, vice sending messages through surrogates.

Oh, my. That sounds like more triangulation. I'm trying to avoid other people being involved in the communication between my husband and I. Dealing with people directly is something that I value a lot - always have. Everything that I've read about the triangulation says to speak directly to the people involved without trying to relay messages through the third party. I have expressed to him that I need to hear from these people directly.

I'm not sure how redirecting them to my husband when they are asking about me for their own information (no relaying of information back) is appropriate.


I can be blunt, but most of the time I'm very sensitive to others' emotions and use lots of empathetic responses as my go-to way of being. That's probably been the thing that has kept us fairly stable for so long without a lot of conflict. I was my husband's live-in therapist.

[formflier]

Oh, my. That sounds like more triangulation. 

Hey... .I think somehow we "missed each other on this"

My point exactly is that by listening to those people or engaging in "damage control" actually creates a triangle.

By referring people back to the source and you stepping away from the situation... .by definition there can be no triangle because there are only two points.

It's not your responsibility to make sure that they actually go back to the hubby or whoever started the tale... .but it is your responsibility to not "create a triangle"

Thoughts?

FF

[gotbushels]

Yes! I think we are on the same page.

If we are talking about "asking the question why"... .without using the word... .then I am totally onboard with the thought or point.

I'm glad we're at consensus on this.   I'm feeling relieved because this is such a helpful thing. I expect using this in your own way could give you a lot of relief. Wonderful.

If we are talking about using the word "why"... .I'm going to stick with being "generally against it".
(... .)
Most pwBPD are oversensitive and they attract many nons that are very logical and "overly blunt" or "not sensitive" to the feelings of others.  The bigger point about avoiding "why" is to be deliberate about taking the pwBPDs communication needs into account

It's about emotional leadership.  The pwBPD is not going to be able to lead the r/s to a better place.  It's just not going to happen.

So... .yes... .100% on board to seek to understand "why" someone does something.  Just avoid the word.  

Yes! This makes a lot of sense. I think similarly to what you're describing here. The why helps with that leadership. If we seek to lead the pwBPD out of an anxiety "hole", then to ask for a reason is to find out which hole we're dealing with at a given time. E.g., is this about her fear of cheating or fear of leaving?

I'm open to thoughts and comments.

All those suggestions sound fair to use. I prefer the shorter ones.    To me they don't sound so clinical.

I gravitated towards the military where short... .direct... .authoritative communication styles ruled the day.  :)efinitely was my comfort zone.

I know what you mean. Straight-talk can be much easier to deal with sometimes. The bonus of straight-talk is that it's upfront and you don't need to tinker a hundred filters to find out what the issue actually is. I had a boss that wanted a 4am day-end meeting (long story) and no one showed up. He started calling everyone at 4.30am. I think it's much easier to have straight-talked that than to mention such a thing quietly and "by the way" and then never go over it again. A similar principle I think stands here between non-pwBPD-stuff and doing pwBPD-stuff: if you ask the BP to do something like respect a limit, it can be hard--so expect some kind of "that's hard" response as you would of any human when you ask them to do something hard.

[formflier]

Another great thread!

Yes we want to know "what hole we are dealing with", I would caution/advise nons to realize that "factually" understanding which hole you are dealing with is much less important that "emotionally" understanding what hole is there.

When searching for facts... .you are really looking for emotions to validate and ways to demonstrate empathy with your partner.  Even if the facts are WAAAAY off.  Emotions first... .fill in factual holes much later.

FF

[empath]

FF, we probably did miss each other... .  Thanks.

By referring people back to the source and you stepping away from the situation... .by definition there can be no triangle because there are only two points.

There is already a triangle as my husband has told them about his perception of my issues; I am already part of the triangle, unwillingly. I am getting out of it and modeling healthy communication. They ask me about me -- which is what they should do, verify their information. I respond to their questions about me only. Not telling them about me is detrimental to my relationship with them because I work and serve with these people. If they ask about my husband and why he would think these things, I refer them back to him as the proper source for that information. The way to deal with the triangulation is to talk directly with the other party in the triangle - it's only effective if there is one person in the middle controlling the information. If I don't talk to them, I perpetuate the triangle because my husband is still the source of information.

I have been removed from a position because my husband has told people about what he thought my issues were, and I did not have a chance to respond to the allegations. They just went on what he said - which was inaccurate. Removing myself from relationship with these people cuts me off from my support system.

[formflier]

If I don't talk to them, I perpetuate the triangle because my husband is still the source of information.

. 

Interesting.  Listen... .I'm not the best on triangles and drama.  But my understanding is that if only two people are passing information back and forth... .by definition... .there is not triangle.  Only when another person chooses to enter the triangle... .does it become a triangle.

Not all actions in a triangle are BAD.  So having three people (or more) is not necessarily bad, but almost always a situation to be very careful with.

I have been removed from a position because my husband has told people about what he thought my issues were, and I did not have a chance to respond to the allegations. They just went on what he said - which was inaccurate. Removing myself from relationship with these people cuts me off from my support system.

And do I have a correct understanding that this was in a church situation?

Can you share more details?

Very curious/puzzled about any situation where there is NOT due process. 

FF

[empath]

There are a couple of different types of triangles - the drama triangle (Karpman) and a psychological one. The psych one is where one person controls information between two other people. The one in the middle tells each of the parties information about the other party. In my case, my husband tells people who I have relationships with about my issues and tells me about what they have said about me. It is a way to gain power and control over a situation. (it's like gossip)

There is a way to triangulate in a therapeutic sense as well; that is more of an advanced type technique.

Our situation does involve our church; I was in a paid leadership position. My husband is also in leadership. Churches can be very loose and sometimes lack proper processes for doing things, especially in smaller churches. There were a series of cascading events and reactions by my husband to try to gain control inappropriately. If these had happened in the secular workplace, there would have been consequences to his actions. I ended up being let go. He remains on staff.

[formflier]

So... .why listen to the gossip he carries back and forth, vice excusing yourself from the conversation.

I can see an angle where "knowledge is power" but I can also see where making a statement with your actions about what is and isn't ok is big as well.

Not at all trying to say one way is right or wrong... .there is obviously a lot of nuance in all our stories.

FF

[empath]

I generally ignore the whole 'they say' comments -- or say, they need to speak to me directly if they have a problem with me.

Personally, I prefer more separation in our social and church relationships, but he and his church leadership does not really support that idea. I'm worshiping elsewhere for the time being and have developed more separate relationships - but not so separate that I'm not around. In the process, I'm growing and getting stronger.

[empath]

if you ask the BP to do something like respect a limit, it can be hard--so expect some kind of "that's hard" response as you would of any human when you ask them to do something hard.

And expect it to be 'hard' for a very long time.

I had to laugh at the straight forward communication without having to wade through a billion filters. Yes. Sometimes, I just need 'normal' communication for a break.

[gotbushels]

There are a couple of different types of triangles - the drama triangle (Karpman) and a psychological one. The psych one is where one person controls information between two other people. (... .) It is a way to gain power and control over a situation. (it's like gossip)

This is interesting. The psychological one seems somewhat irritating to be a part of. Is it similar to when one person does chores then another person says "we did this X"; or "we brought up that luggage" when none of the work was done by the person speaking?

[Cat Familiar]

Is it similar to when one person does chores then another person says "we did this X"; or "we brought up that luggage" when none of the work was done by the person speaking?

Only with a pwBPD have I experienced this taking credit for work that they personally have not done. I'm wondering if it has something to do with a very fragile identity and loose boundaries. I've been gobsmacked when I've observed my husband tell other people about the bread that "we" baked, the vegetables "we" grew, and riding horses--none of which he's done, nor has any interest in doing.

So I'm wondering, if in empath's situation it might be similar to what I've presumed is the dynamic in mine: a lack of self-esteem in the pwBPD and a desire to appear knowledgeable or competent to other people.