pwBPD & physical attractiveness

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Something that I've noticed in many topics/stories here is that a large number of people seem to point out how physically attractive their BPD ex was and this really resonates with me as my ex was definitely the most attractive partner I've ever been with. When you think about it, the percentage of truly objectively attractive people is pretty low when you look at the human race as a whole so this has me wondering if there is some kind of correlation between physical beauty & BPD?

A few thoughts:

- We know that there is a high probability of comorbidity with other cluster B personality disorders, one being NPD. The high sense of perceived self worth exhibited by narcissists is something that could definitely be perpetuated by a person knowing the power of their own physical attractiveness. This of course conflicts the hidden self-loathing present in many pwBPD but I'm wondering if the knowledge of one's own physical attractiveness serves as a catalyst for pwBPD to over-inflate their self worth and truly believe that they are deserving of someone who can fully live up to the outlandish romantic fantasies that they construct for themselves in their heads?

- From my personal experience, the overt physical beauty of my BPD ex absolutely caused me to willingly overlook many red flags at the beginning of the relationship simply because my human biology was so enthralled to be with someone of such alluring attractiveness. Did anyone else here find themselves being ok with certain things that didn't seem right simply because the sexual/physical draw to the pwBPD was so powerful?

- We often talk about "high functioning" pwBPD, for example - think of how seemingly normal, kind, sociable, likable etc. many of our ex partners seemed to be out in day to day life regardless of how deeply dysfunctional we discovered them to be through the relationship progressing/ending. It's human nature to place value in physical attractiveness so is it possible that for pwBPD whom are attractive, they can exploit this to come across in a certain way / act as if they're something they're not more easily and convincingly? I know that in my case, nobody out in the general public would believe all of the things that I now know about my BPD ex because of how well they can come across as a normal, well-adjusted person. Hell, if somebody had come to me a few weeks/months into my relationship and told me these things I most likely wouldn't have believed them either.

- The devaluation / discard process seems to be in most cases very sudden and very cold-hearted/cruel. I wonder if physical attractiveness fuels the fire behind how easily a pwBPD can devalue you because they know that their looks can lure in a replacement without much effort? It's almost as if (in my opinion) that physical attractiveness perpetuates the idealize/devalue/discard process and how effortlessly a pwBPD can put someone through this because they understand how powerful & captivating of an effect their appearance has on romantic interests.

- Similar to my first point, I definitely found that later on in the relationship & even in the discard process that I often had thoughts of "what if I can never find a woman this beautiful again?". I guess what I'm saying is that beyond causing us to potentially overlook red flags, I'm wondering if physical attractiveness can also cause us to be amenable to poor treatment (devaluation) that we wouldn't stand for if the person didn't exhibit such physical beauty? This one could possibly be related to simple human nature rather than BPD yet I thought I would mention it anyway.

Just some random thoughts for the day but I'm curious to see what others here have to say about this. As I mentioned before, it does seem like an abnormally high percentage of people here have mentioned how physically attractive their BPD ex was/is and I always enjoy exploring these commonalities between the experiences we have all had.

[pjstock42]

Something that I've noticed in many topics/stories here is that a large number of people seem to point out how physically attractive their BPD ex was and this really resonates with me as my ex was definitely the most attractive partner I've ever been with. When you think about it, the percentage of truly objectively attractive people is pretty low when you look at the human race as a whole so this has me wondering if there is some kind of correlation between physical beauty & BPD?

A few thoughts:

- We know that there is a high probability of comorbidity with other cluster B personality disorders, one being NPD. The high sense of perceived self worth exhibited by narcissists is something that could definitely be perpetuated by a person knowing the power of their own physical attractiveness. This of course conflicts the hidden self-loathing present in many pwBPD but I'm wondering if the knowledge of one's own physical attractiveness serves as a catalyst for pwBPD to over-inflate their self worth and truly believe that they are deserving of someone who can fully live up to the outlandish romantic fantasies that they construct for themselves in their heads?

- From my personal experience, the overt physical beauty of my BPD ex absolutely caused me to willingly overlook many red flags at the beginning of the relationship simply because my human biology was so enthralled to be with someone of such alluring attractiveness. Did anyone else here find themselves being ok with certain things that didn't seem right simply because the sexual/physical draw to the pwBPD was so powerful?

- We often talk about "high functioning" pwBPD, for example - think of how seemingly normal, kind, sociable, likable etc. many of our ex partners seemed to be out in day to day life regardless of how deeply dysfunctional we discovered them to be through the relationship progressing/ending. It's human nature to place value in physical attractiveness so is it possible that for pwBPD whom are attractive, they can exploit this to come across in a certain way / act as if they're something they're not more easily and convincingly? I know that in my case, nobody out in the general public would believe all of the things that I now know about my BPD ex because of how well they can come across as a normal, well-adjusted person. Hell, if somebody had come to me a few weeks/months into my relationship and told me these things I most likely wouldn't have believed them either.

- The devaluation / discard process seems to be in most cases very sudden and very cold-hearted/cruel. I wonder if physical attractiveness fuels the fire behind how easily a pwBPD can devalue you because they know that their looks can lure in a replacement without much effort? It's almost as if (in my opinion) that physical attractiveness perpetuates the idealize/devalue/discard process and how effortlessly a pwBPD can put someone through this because they understand how powerful & captivating of an effect their appearance has on romantic interests.

- Similar to my first point, I definitely found that later on in the relationship & even in the discard process that I often had thoughts of "what if I can never find a woman this beautiful again?". I guess what I'm saying is that beyond causing us to potentially overlook red flags, I'm wondering if physical attractiveness can also cause us to be amenable to poor treatment (devaluation) that we wouldn't stand for if the person didn't exhibit such physical beauty? This one could possibly be related to simple human nature rather than BPD yet I thought I would mention it anyway.

Just some random thoughts for the day but I'm curious to see what others here have to say about this. As I mentioned before, it does seem like an abnormally high percentage of people here have mentioned how physically attractive their BPD ex was/is and I always enjoy exploring these commonalities between the experiences we have all had.

[insideoutside]

My friend is not attractive at all; he has gone bald and used to have strawberry blonde wavy-ish hair and pock marked skin from acne (bit like the guy in Grease who they called crater face).  He is 48 years old and is a small time actor so not even a high flying career.  I think the pull with him is his charm; he is very charismatic and used to be a bit of a bad boy in his youth which attracted the girls but I have to say, even if this comes across as mean, I don't know if he could attract women solely on his appearance to be honest.  I wouldn't look twice at him if I didn't know the man underneath and that's being honest.  If I look at photos of him I don't have an attraction to him.

So to answer your question from my perspective is I have no idea how my friend gets women (if he does of course as I have no way of knowing really) but the way he talked to me at times, in general, would make me think he was a bit narcissistic and looked down on people.  He used words very intellectually to make himself sound interesting and knowledgable.

[Pretty Woman]

Many BPD's are famous actresses-the "beautiful" people--so maybe there IS a correlation there. Mine was attractive in the "confident" sense. When we first dated she projected extreme confidence. That in itself is sexy. So I don't think it's always the "physical" when it comes to the attractiveness in these relationships. Just IMO... .

[woundedPhoenix]

Well... .you could turn the whole logic around... .

They are often very attractive and able to perfect their looks with great care. But this is in my opinion not really by accident and totally related to BPD.

I guess they went through a childhood full of scars and later came in situations where being attractive was the only form of self-esteem and means of control left to them, so they learned to play that card out above all else.

Furthermore, being attractive as a child or teenager increases the chances to be exposed to any form of sexual and other abuse, especially in dysfunctional families they ussually grow up in.

This leads to hypersexuality and extremely seductive behaviours, to compensate a whole lot of underlying issues

[boatman]

We often talk about "high functioning" pwBPD, for example - think of how seemingly normal, kind, sociable, likable etc. many of our ex partners seemed to be out in day to day life regardless of how deeply dysfunctional we discovered them to be through the relationship progressing/ending. It's human nature to place value in physical attractiveness so is it possible that for pwBPD whom are attractive, they can exploit this to come across in a certain way / act as if they're something they're not more easily and convincingly? I know that in my case, nobody out in the general public would believe all of the things that I now know about my BPD ex because of how well they can come across as a normal, well-adjusted person.

I absolutely agree with this. Whether or not we as a society want to admit it or not, physical attraction virtually runs our society. My ex can have any guy she wants so she has no reason to change. I may have stopped enabling her crappy behavior but she will have no trouble finding someone else to enable it. It drives me crazy that people that don't know her think she is wonderful while I'm left alone to deal with the aftermath of her sociopathic behaviors.

I definitely found that later on in the relationship & even in the discard process that I often had thoughts of "what if I can never find a woman this beautiful again?". I guess what I'm saying is that beyond causing us to potentially overlook red flags, I'm wondering if physical attractiveness can also cause us to be amenable to poor treatment (devaluation) that we wouldn't stand for if the person didn't exhibit such physical beauty?

Absolutely true for me.

[tryingsome]

Eh, my exBPD was not that attractive; not any more or less so than any other people.
However, as my own dysfunctional state and codependency set in over the years I found her more and more attractive.
At the end, I thought she was one of the most attractive people ever; and what I have noticed is that very disfuntional people also found her alluring.
People with a strong self though, rarely found her physically attractive.

I think the point here, is that beauty does not necessarily mean BPD is likely, but rather attraction tends to occur based on a state of mind.

[once removed]

its an interesting question and not the first time ive seen it raised.

some thoughts:

1. what is human nature is to see our partners as more attractive than others do. i thought my ex was stunning. nobody else did. thats not a bad thing, either.

2. if anything, statistically its probably the opposite. people with this disorder live dysfunctional lives that tend to involve substance abuse and self harm, usually emerging at teen age.

3. you have hit on something that is far more pertinent, and something many of us as members have in common - struggles with self esteem. did we all just happen to land with above average looking partners? is someone who we view as more physically attractive than us, who is also attracted to us, a red flag/cause for concern? probably not. more likely, many of us struggle with self esteem, and found partners who also struggle with self esteem regardless of how attractive they are or are not.

- The devaluation / discard process seems to be in most cases very sudden and very cold-hearted/cruel. I wonder if physical attractiveness fuels the fire behind how easily a pwBPD can devalue you because they know that their looks can lure in a replacement without much effort? It's almost as if (in my opinion) that physical attractiveness perpetuates the idealize/devalue/discard process and how effortlessly a pwBPD can put someone through this because they understand how powerful & captivating of an effect their appearance has on romantic interests.

the "devaluation/discard process" you are referring to, in the context of BPD, is an unconscious defense mechanism and a pathological replaying of dysfunctional coping mechanisms. the line of thinking youre ascribing is contrary to BPD, and, respectfully, far fetched. do such people exist? sure. your relationship and what youre experiencing in the aftermath would probably have played out very differently if this were the case.

I guess what I'm saying is that beyond causing us to potentially overlook red flags, I'm wondering if physical attractiveness can also cause us to be amenable to poor treatment (devaluation) that we wouldn't stand for if the person didn't exhibit such physical beauty?

you dont need BPD or physical attractiveness in this equation, but the answer is yes. a person who struggles with self esteem will tolerate abusive behavior for any number of reasons. they may subconsciously believe they deserve it, or similarly, not believe they deserve better. they may "need to be needed". they may have poor boundaries. they may self isolate and be less experienced in relationships.

physical attractiveness is important to most of us, to varying degrees. like sex, we can place too much emphasis on it. if our partner is the most physically attractive person in the world (subjective) does that say anything about us? and if we believe it does, what does it say? digging around there, you just may find your draw.

[Moselle]

My ex can have any guy she wants

Really? Even someone with strong boundaries?

As a general comment on attractiveness. With the amount of mirroring my ex did, I'm wondering if I didn't fall in love with the mirror

[rfriesen]

- The devaluation / discard process seems to be in most cases very sudden and very cold-hearted/cruel. I wonder if physical attractiveness fuels the fire behind how easily a pwBPD can devalue you because they know that their looks can lure in a replacement without much effort?

the "devaluation/discard process" you are referring to, in the context of BPD, is an unconscious defense mechanism and a pathological replaying of dysfunctional coping mechanisms. the line of thinking youre ascribing is contrary to BPD, and, respectfully, far fetched. do such people exist? sure. your relationship and what youre experiencing in the aftermath would probably have played out very differently if this were the case.

Where PJ says an attractive pwBPD might "know that their looks can lure in a replacement", I didn't take that as necessarily ascribing a conscious line of thought to them, just that they "know" at an instinctive level they can easily line up replacements. I would just add that this knowledge is possessed by any attractive person who's aware of how attractive they are, not just pwBPD, and I would think it often factors into a person's (unconscious) thought processes when they go through a break-up. Even if we absolutely don't want it, we can find our minds hitting us with thoughts of whether we'll find someone similar or what kind of person we might meet, etc, even if we push those thoughts away. For a pwBPD those thoughts seem overwhelmingly intrusive and intense and it seems reasonable to me that a pwBPD who knows they get a lot of attention for looks will on some (unconscious or occasionally conscious) level find something of a crutch in that.

My ex was very self-aware in many ways and she told me a few times that she knew she put too much value in the sexual attention she got from guys. She would also joke about how much she cared for looks -- saying how her sisters teased her, for instance, that she never met a camera she didn't love. She craved being the centre of guys' attention and, again, sometimes acknowledged this had caused problems in past relationships.

I don't think any of this is a specifically BPD trait -- just that, as with all aspects of their personalities, it can become caught up in the BPD dynamic in intimate relationships. My ex, at times, certainly seemed to understand her attractiveness and sexual openness as a source of control and power in relationships. She was also extremely jealous, so it wasn't that she was prepared to tolerate the same openness from me with other women. And the more jealous she became, the more she tried to play on my jealousies. It was a toxic dynamic.

That said, I don't think my ex is the most attractive person I've dated, "objectively" speaking (i.e. just my subjective opinion of how others saw her). But she is beautiful -- and tall and striking and very charming, with a gorgeous expressive smile. And she came to seem more and more beautiful to me over time, I think because she is so expressive and emotionally intense. She has that way of turning a smile on someone that lights them right up. And I don't doubt that comes in part from a lifetime of feeling the highs of validation every time she sees someone (especially men, but she also loves to charm women) charmed by it. Again, that alone isn't a BPD trait, but it sure seems to feed my ex's seemingly insatiable need for attention and external validation.

[once removed]

i dont mean to dismiss the idea that a person with BPD, or without it, might be conscious of their good looks or sexual prowess and use it as a hook. my ex certainly did, and told me so 

i think it has little to do with the process of splitting an ex or current partner black.

[BorisAcusio]

wondering if there is some kind of correlation between physical beauty & BPD?

There are groups on social media for BPD sufferers. Just skim them through and you will certainly dismiss the whole idea.

[rfriesen]

My ex can have any guy she wants

Really? Even someone with strong boundaries?

I hope this comment doesn't come across as insensitive, boatman, but often statements like "My ex can have any guy she wants" really mean something more like "I can't imagine ever being able to resist my ex." As Moselle suggests, that may be food for reflection on how you set boundaries around someone like your ex. It might also reflect social circles -- there's tremendous variety in social circles in terms of how easily men and women "can have" one another.

In any case, the reality is, no matter how beautiful, charming, and seductive a woman is, there will always be countless guys she can't seduce or "have". My ex said something interesting to me on this point -- she said that before me she had always gone for guys who felt "safe" and that she knew she would be able to control. Now, obviously the "before me" bit is her trying to pull me back in and I'll take it with a massive grain of salt. No doubt she also sensed some vulnerability in me, at least to the extent that we escalated the flirting quickly and I was obviously completely charmed by her. But I think she was likely telling the truth when she said it was the first time someone had ended things with her and she was shocked by this because she instinctively chose men she felt she could "have". And someone in her social circle might well have thought that she could have any guy she wanted -- but there are millions of guys outside the social circles she's comfortable in that she would never try to have, maybe sensing that she couldn't if she tried.

This, too, is nothing unique to pwBPD.

[Infern0]

My ex was very attractive to me although not all of that was physical.

To average Joe they would probably say she was "pretty" she was by no means a stunner.

She did have amazing eyes but was just kind of above average. She had an eating disorder as she's naturally a little chubby but she was obsessed with staying thin so was bulimic. She was about 90lbs when I was with her but had previous to that been a lot heavier.

Her makeup game was amazing though, when she glammed up she knew how to maximize what she had

[Infern0]

My ex can have any guy she wants

Really? Even someone with strong boundaries?

I hope this comment doesn't come across as insensitive, boatman, but often statements like "My ex can have any guy she wants" really mean something more like "I can't imagine ever being able to resist my ex." As Moselle suggests, that may be food for reflection on how you set boundaries around someone like your ex. It might also reflect social circles -- there's tremendous variety in social circles in terms of how easily men and women "can have" one another.

In any case, the reality is, no matter how beautiful, charming, and seductive a woman is, there will always be countless guys she can't seduce or "have". My ex said something interesting to me on this point -- she said that before me she had always gone for guys who felt "safe" and that she knew she would be able to control. Now, obviously the "before me" bit is her trying to pull me back in and I'll take it with a massive grain of salt. No doubt she also sensed some vulnerability in me, at least to the extent that we escalated the flirting quickly and I was obviously completely charmed by her. But I think she was likely telling the truth when she said it was the first time someone had ended things with her and she was shocked by this because she instinctively chose men she felt she could "have". And someone in her social circle might well have thought that she could have any guy she wanted -- but there are millions of guys outside the social circles she's comfortable in that she would never try to have, maybe sensing that she couldn't if she tried.

This, too, is nothing unique to pwBPD.

Definatly agree with all of this. What we see isn't what everyone else does. My ex was a "bottom feeder" in terms of guys she got with. I'm probably a weak 7/10 on a good day which puts me around the same as her, maybe slightly lower and I was the best looking guy she's been with of the ones I know.

Some of her exes were actually shocking with how they looked.

She was straight intimidated by really good looking guys

[Stripey77]

There was a very similar thread to this running some time ago, when we all discussed the physical attraction to our partners, and indeed, many of us did state that our exes were extremely attractive, at least to us. Is there really such a thing as 'objectively attractive'? I don't think so, for the pure reason that attraction is so incredibly subjective... .hence the phrase 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'. Yes, there are certain 'markers' that we as human beings belonging to one particular culture or another may universally find attractive within that culture, but even these boundaries get blurred as we so often date/marry outside 'our' race, culture, etc.  I can think of a woman (I am a straight woman, by the way) right now who I happen to think is stunningly pretty. My very close friend thinks the total opposite. Now isn't that strange? Or... .is it?

Yes, my ex is probably one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen. Physically, he made me catch my breath, and still does. He had me totally transfixed when under his gaze - and there was a lot of intense eye locking, I can tell you. Others have remarked to me how beautiful he is, although his appearance is not to everyone's taste - because just as many people, if not more, have remarked to me what a mess he looks like, that he looks 'like a tramp' (I've heard this more than once) or how dishevelled he is. This is because, even approaching his late 30s, he does at times dress somewhat like a teenager, although I happen to love his style, but mainly because he drinks a great deal - and sometimes he just looks like he's let himself go. I always feel a bit disappointed to see him in this state, and I know it's an outward sign of what's going on underneath - but he could be so much more. He can come back from trips to his home country bloated and overweight. I can certainly see why, when he's like this, others fail to see what I find so attractive.  On the other hand, he's certainly not vain, that's for sure, and caring way too much about appearance is never something I've found attractive in a partner.   And again, what is 'objectively attractive'? My ex is probably also the shortest person I've ever fallen in love with - he's barely taller than me. Other friends of mine would find him far too short for their tastes. For me, this faded into total obscurity once I got to know him.


I'll leave you with this, though; yes, my partner is attractive - but then again, I wasn't hit with the ugly stick myself. I'm not a bad looking woman, and I didn't think I was 'batting out of my league' at any point. I've had good looking men before... .there may have been an element of me pinching myself quite a lot to begin with, but this wasn't just due to his good looks - it was the entire package - the mental/intellectual connection, the fact that he cared for me so much, the great fun we had together, the sex... .everything. Finally, I thought, my prince has come. The fact that he is incredibly beautiful was the icing on the cake, but as I say, his beauty, which is quite exotic/unusual, is not to everyone's taste, and if he were beautiful but a total a-hole to me from day one, in no way would I have formed the bond to him that I did. No way. It was his kindness toward me, above all, that made me fall in love with him. A kindness that has now all but disappeared, of course.

But this is the most important thing of all; you ask whether we overlooked things/ignored flags, because of their beauty. For me, I did so because the bizarre behaviours floored and disorientated me - not his appearance. I was in love with his character - I was in lust with his looks. However, the question is, to me, a redundant one, purely because I wouldn't have gone out with anyone in the first place who I wasn't attracted to. And that is irrespective of how the rest of society may deem them. It's not shallow, it's just biology, I go out with men I am attracted to. For me, that is absolutely not why I allowed certain behaviours to continue or even develop. It's nothing to do with that, and everything to do with everything else.

[satahal]

It's an interesting question - it might be that people with a predisposition to BPD, who also happen to be highly attractive, are more susceptible to manifesting the full blown disorder.

BPD people are children in adult bodies - they somehow have learned, or decided, that rules don't apply to them: they deserve more, better, exceptions etc. Highly attractive people are treated very preferentially. Put the two together and yes, maybe the experience of moving through the world beautiful can trigger the latent disorder.

I'm considered to be fairly attractive - not movie star but above ordinary.

The perks are constant - from being waiting on first, getting freebies, jobs, dates with impressive men and mostly, the little rush of always being observed - knowing you have everyone's attention. I always felt like it was a fun little trick - a thing to enjoy but really, I never felt like it made me special (i felt like more of an imposter- I was not what I looked like - I was terribly insecure and introverted) and I certainly never felt I could have any guy I wanted, though I'd been told that a lot - it's never really true - no one is attractive to everyone.

I've often thought being pretty in our culture is a handicap to becoming a developed human. If you aren't careful you can waste your days getting juice from all the attention and forget to grow a satisfying life.

Having said all of that, my ex wBPD was not terribly handsome in a conventional sense though he was a semi-pro athlete in his youth and still quite gifted into middle age in his non-pro athletic pursuits, which gives him a kind of specialness. And boy is he charming - he can charm the pants off of just about anyone. It is something else.

Of the other people I know with BPD - two are quite brilliant, one is brilliant and very charming, the other is very beautiful. So I suppose a special-ness was attached to all of them - maybe that's the thing - it doesn't have to be beauty just some kind of specialness. Because, honestly who else but someone terribly compelling can get away with moving through the world the way they do?

[boatman]

I hope this comment doesn't come across as insensitive, boatman, but often statements like "My ex can have any guy she wants" really mean something more like "I can't imagine ever being able to resist my ex."

For me personally, it doesn't mean that at all. It means that she could go around stealing candy from little kids and still have guys orbiting around her like planets around the sun. I would say that 75% of it is her physical appearance and the other 25% is the fact that she has mastered intermittent reinforcement. She seems to be able to push/pull with many guys at once, keeping them in orbit, not to close but not too far away.

[iluminati]

I've found the whole "pwBPD are attractive" hypothesis to be some self-serving foolishness.  From my experience, they aren't dramatically more (or less) attractive then the general population.  Some are cute, some are ugly and most are in the middle.

What I will say is that they tend to maximize what they got, which makes a certain level of sense.  If you know you can use your sexuality to manipulate people, you have to use what you have at your disposal.  From their perspective, that's the only way to keep people around.  I'm not saying that it's just, but it definitely makes a certain level of sense.

[boatman]

What I will say is that they tend to maximize what they got, which makes a certain level of sense.  If you know you can use your sexuality to manipulate people, you have to use what you have at your disposal.  From their perspective, that's the only way to keep people around.  I'm not saying that it's just, but it definitely makes a certain level of sense.

Exactly.