This is difficult

[byfaith]

After 5 years of marriage, it appears to be coming to an end. The hard part of all this is the fact that I still love her. Its so hard to see someone you love suffer and you cant do anything about it.

The realization has finally hit me it isnt my fault. I have tried all that I know to do.

I cant see anything that will change the course we are on. She gave up on MC. It was getting to the issues that deal with her responsibility in the marriage.

I will post more later. This feeling sucks. I have to get through these feelings to get to the other side.

[Notwendy]

ByFaith- are you doing any personal counseling?

I have read that the end of a marriage is similar to a death- even if it is an ending that one chooses. It would make sense to be grieving. Another reason is that you have been in a caretaking role to a disordered person for a long time. You have likely developed relationship patterns that are not emotionally healthy or functional with people who are not disordered.

A counselor can help you process your feelings as well as be a role model for emotionally healthy interactions. He/she may help you process the sadness, guilt. At this time, your marriage isn't technically over, but if you see it heading this way, he/she may be able to help you with all these feelings.

Although this is not on your mind- and may not be on your mind for a long time- you are IMHO in an emotionally vulnerable position, having not been intimate with someone in a long time. It would be hard to resist someone's interest. However, I have read that if we are in a dysfunctional relationship that ends, and we do not do some personal work on our part in it- we then risk being in a relationship with similar issues. We have to consider what part of us attracted and is attracted to a disordered person. Someone with co-dependent/caretaking tendencies may be attractive to someone looking for that. This does not mean not ever dating again or being fearful, but I think it means there is some personal work to do before getting serious with someone again.

The benefit of the work is not about others, but for you. Gaining emotional strength will help you in all your relationships- your children and grandchildren too.

[formflier]

Talk more about her "giving up" on counseling and what that looked and sounded like, and what you said back.

My goal is to make sure that you have communicated clearly to her about it.

Goal 2 is like Notwendy, to make sure you are taking care of you.

I'm still on the deciding board.  There is a decent chance that my marriage will end, even though that it not what I want.  One of the goals of my Psychologist is to clarify (in my mind) whether or not my marriage will last and if I should play any part in ending it.

This is long term thing.  I've obviously "pulled the trigger" on actions that I fully expected to end my marriage (CPS about spanking) and we still are going.  Next big checkpoint will be after legal issues are behind me.

I suspect if I can find a level of dysfunction that I can live with that I will stay for my kids sake.  I've seen how divorce works in this family.  Bad stuff.

We can certainly help you clarify your desires and values, but a good T is needed.  I hope that you will continue going to this MC.  Keep door open for your wife to return.

Praying for you Byfaith... .

FF

[byfaith]

Talk more about her "giving up" on counseling and what that looked and sounded like, and what you said back.

To make the explanation simple she does not and will not discuss the problems that she brings to the marriage. She told me that she would not go back to MC with an agenda against her. Its sad thats the way she sees it. I told her i could understand how she might see it that way but MC is where we go to discuss these issues. We discuss my issues. She wants to paint a rosey picture to everyone and then continue on behind the scenes like everything is ok.

The problem is that she needs extensive personal therapy which sadly looks like she will never pursue.

I went to see the MC for the last time this past thursday. He sees where we are at a dead end as far as couples therapy for now until she gets help with her deep issues. He knows and sees the Pd traits in her. As many state on these boards MC does not work with disordered individuals.

I think he is going to try to pursue individual therapy with her.

I told him thursday its time for me to follow my gut. My gut has been telling me things for a while and i was not listening.

I feel sad for my wife though

[formflier]

 
Pretty much what I thought.  Thanks for clarifying... .and       for your situation.

I would say to "understand" what your gut is telling you, understand your values and ask your personal T if it appears you have a correct understanding of the "facts on the ground" as far as what your wife is really doing... .compared to what she is saying.

Then... .make a wise decision about timeframe and be honest with youself if your selfcare routine can keep your "heart" OK... .while waiting for your timeframe to be up.

FF

[Stalwart]

Hey ByFaith:

Just curious, if you were to explain 'what the other side' Looks like to you it would be interesting.

[byfaith]

Hi Stalwart,

When you say explain what the other side looks like... .do you mean how do I envision life without this relationship?

[Verbena]

byfaith,
You are in the same boat I was in a few months ago.  There could be no discussion of the issues in my marriage either.  No accountability and total denial. 

I suspect that if my ex had ever agreed to any marriage counseling, he would also have felt that there was an agenda against him and stopped after one session--if he made through one session. 

I agree that marriage counseling is pointless with a disordered person unless they are getting a lot of individual help. 

You tried for five years; I tried for almost 34.  We cannot fix other people.  Only God can do that and in the case of personality disorders, it would take God working through a team of professionals.  In short, it would take a miracle. 

You deserve a better life than the one you've living.  So does your wife.  She would have to choose something different, though, and she likely isn't going to any more than my ex ever will. 

[HopefulDad]

byfaith, take solace in knowing that you are not alone.  You have a great group of folks here who can relate 100%, including me.  And I know these words sound empty right now, but you will come out a better person in the end.  You will be more "you" and not the shell of a person you had become.

[byfaith]

Hey everyone,

I have not left the house yet. There was something I felt I needed to "try" before I make the final decision to leave. We literally cannot talk about issues, it's maddening. I am keeping my temperament though. The more that I don't give into her "demands" or I don't let her under my skin, the more she detaches from me and the more I detach from her.

Like last night. I was talking to my daughter on the phone. My wife will ask me to put someone on speaker phone without them knowing it.  I refuse. She then uses passive aggressive behavior to retaliate. She turns the TV up. I leave the room.  In the past I may or may not have put it on speaker phone. To me that is disrespectful to the person I am talking to UNLESS I tell them I am placing them on speaker phone. That sounds trivial but it pisses my wife off big time because she thinks I am trying to hide something from her.

My wife told me that I have used the word divorce too much, I disagree. I have alluded to it by making statements like " I cant do this the rest of my life" or " I don't know where we go from here" she will then say " then just divorce me" one time I said "Ok let's discuss that"

SO, I am going to try to never allude to it or mention it. She said it puts her in a self preservation state of mind. I told her I could understand that. The fact remains that it doesn't matter what I do, a tip of the scale of any issue she wants to blame me for and I don't engage and except full responsibility to the fullest she removes herself from me.

I have validated and I also have accepted some responsibility. I have even apologized with the come back from her that I didn't mean it. I don't even argue. We were going to watch the debate together last night but she jumped my case about something that was 98% unjustified so I just went in my room and watched it by myself.

The night before she told me she did not want to be around me because of the way a certain request she made, made ME feel. I apologized for my initial answer, which was not bad. I told her I understood and I would honor her request next time. But when she told me she didn't want to be around me I got up politely and left. I even told her why I felt the way I did. She didn't care.

[formflier]

Hey everyone,

I have not left the house yet. 

 

Hey... .whose house is it?  Owned... rented? 

2nd:  So... have you used the world divorce? 

What you said was not an "allusion" to divorce.  At least in my book.  You let your partner know your feelings... .there are many ways to solve the issue, divorce being one of them.

Basically... .you are saying it is a big deal.

OK... .I "fought" the TV battle with my wife over volume... .more often than not by not leaving the room.

Some technical details:  Whose TV is it?  It kinda matters... .and kinda doesn't. 

Maybe this is feisty FF... .but if I was on the phone and someone purposefully turned up volume to ruin the phone call... .  I would ask nicely for them to turn it down.  If that didn't work I would get up and unplug the TV.  No fighting words or any of that.  Just do it.

Yep... I'm sure that is against a bagillion "rules" on here.  My situation is a bit different as TV was interfering with sleep... .I can't move my sleep location... .so I had to "win" the battle.

FF

FF

[The Teacher]

To make the explanation simple she does not and will not discuss the problems that she brings to the marriage. She told me that she would not go back to MC with an agenda against her.

This happened to me as well and it made MC pointless. If you cannot speak of troubles that arise during the week, your spouse's behaviors, and how the behaviors made you feel, counselors cannot help. I feel for you, because I was there (then attacked for having "given up" on counseling).

[Notwendy]

I am not sure what you are "trying". Is it to see if not mentioning the ":)" word makes a difference? If so, what is the difference- result- that you think will give you an answer to what you are wanting to see by trying this?

Basically- your wife is telling you that this is the problem, and you are hoping that by fixing this, the problem will get better?

Maybe it would help to clarify what you are hoping this will accomplish.

[byfaith]

Valid question. I don't think that not talking about divorce will fix the problem.

What I wanted to do for myself was to let go of the discussion of divorce for now and attempt to get things on a better path by trying to lead with actions that are good for building or healing a marriage.

To be honest it's not working. She has told me time and time again. Please be a spiritual leader in our home. I am a spiritual leader. To lead you need to have someone who wants to follow, she does not want to follow. I am not talking about leading her around but pointing in a good general direction then we walk together. In one breath she says that God is the only one who can heal our marriage but on the other hand she is not willing to follow his precepts for the healing.  I understand that I am dealing with a disordered person here.

She is not willing to seek out any help that deals with emotional issues, marriage issues or any other deep issues that she has. If I would sit down with her every evening and read out of a book and pray with her, it just ends up seeming like a formality because it never has produced real change. We have gone through that exercise before. When it is all said and done I end up being the one who dropped the ball (in her mind) because we quit.   

There are other issues with myself I wanted to try to be better at. Keeping the calmest demeanor that I can in a bad situation. In the book of proverbs it says that a soft answer turns a way wrath (it seems it does not work with a PD).  I wanted to give myself every opportunity to behave the proper way in my own eyes before I make the ultimate decision to leave.

I try to be kind to her without going overboard. If I don’t fit into the box she wants me in then I am someone she doesn’t want to be around.

So really what I am “trying” is more about me knowing that I did all I knew to do.  I also think maybe it’s my way of  holding out some kind of hope that this can get better.  It is probably that I am trying to avoid the pain that both sides are going to have to go through. I love her but not enough to do this forever.

This hurts.  I will always have questions in my mind.  I will not have closure on this, at least for a long time.

I am also going to have to go against my nature when it comes to her. She is going to hit back ( figuratively) and I am going to have to do the same. I do not want to get nasty with someone I care about. That is why it hurts so bad.  I am just too caring for my own good.

[formflier]

 She is going to hit back ( figuratively) and I am going to have to do the same. I do not want to get nasty with someone I care about. That is why it hurts so bad.  I am just too caring for my own good.

There is a difference in "lashing out" and "consequences of a boundary".

For instance:  If she did not allow you to sleep in your house, putting her out of the house is not "hitting back" or being nasty.

I agree she may think that... and she can think whatever.

As long as you are being wise and thoughtful... .then take action... .let the chips fall where they fall.

I hate this for you... .hang in there man... .!

Did she quit in MC... .as in saying I quite and walking out or did she refuse to go back?

FF

[byfaith]

She refused to go back. Well she would not go back and discuss the issues in the marriage. So yes basically she quit. Anything that begins to crack the protective wall she has built she backs away from it.

As far as the house, I don't want to be there any more. It is 18 years of a lot of bad memories and a financial burden around my neck. I am tired.

I called an attorney on monday I am trying to get back in touch with him today to set up consultation. I want to know what my rights are.

[byfaith]

I found a studio apartment 1 mile from where I work. I just need to make the decision. It would give me 30 miles of separation from the house.

[formflier]

Byfaith,

Hey man... .I'm in your corner.  However you relationship comes out of this... .your marriage.  I want YOU to come out of this a better and stronger person. 

Notwendy does a great job of writing about how relationships are where we mature and grow.  I know you are a man of deep faith.  I've read many Christian authors write about how God uses our relationships to grow us.  (I think you get the point).

So... please don't take this as badgering you when I'm going after unanswered questions, I'm trying to make sure you have all the info right in front of you... .to make the best decision for you.

These boards helped me immensely over the weekend as I was about to send an email to the BC.  They helped sharpen a potential letter.  Perhaps today during P I can sort through my motivations and find a healthy path.

Basically... .when I wasn't thinking right... ."you guys"... .straightened me out.

So

Is the house rented or owned?

If owned who is on the title?

Have you asked your wife directly to go back to MC?  Was that "moment" a confusing moment or was your question the only issue that you brought before her?

When she refused... what have you said?

I'm very happy you have an attorney.  Take deep breath and separate this into 3 parts... .be very deliberate in moving from part to part.

1.  Consultation.  Talk to a couple of them.
2.  Decision to retain an attorney and prep documents
3.  Decision to file documents and start the journey.

Each step is separate and very important.  Biggest decision is the last one. 

More later.

We are on your side!

FF