Post break-up contact?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I’ve been reading over old posts (2010) about contact with our ex’s after break-up and came across this comment:

“ Because the BPD paradigm, through which they view their relationships is so different than us "nons", they can do things or go through situations, that likely arouse strong emotions in us,  while they feel very little emotion about it at all. Cause like you said, "... .Bottom line... .these people don't have a bigger picture... ."  Well... . they do I guess, but they cant see or grasp it.  ”

It has confused me as I thought pwBPD experience overwhelming emotions? Also, he has contacted me numerous times since I ended it (January) and each time it arouses strong emotions in me and I’m certain he’s also experiencing strong emotions. Why else would he make contact? I am trying to understand what my ex is trying to do in keeping in contact with me despite the relationship ending last January. Is it because he is testing to see if the ‘attachment’ is still there and if so, what does he get out of it? Temporary soothing of abandonment issues maybe? Or could it be that he is experiencing a fleeting emotion that needs soothing so makes contact with me? Or, does he want me back? Or is his contact just a moment in time for him and means nothing and then he forgets about it and goes on with his life? I’m trying to work out what I mean to him post break-up. Does he still view me as an ‘attachment’ that might come back?

I'd also like to add that I sometimes think he might be trying to lure me back in to promptly reject me as I was the one to end it. He has a pattern of rejecting me. The push/pull and this scares me now as it's incredibly painful to experience as many of us know.

Why can't we both just have an open, honest conversation like 'normal' people? Just clear the air so we both know where we're coming from. It's upsetting and I'm contributing to it.

[Larmoyant]

I’ve been reading over old posts (2010) about contact with our ex’s after break-up and came across this comment:

“ Because the BPD paradigm, through which they view their relationships is so different than us "nons", they can do things or go through situations, that likely arouse strong emotions in us,  while they feel very little emotion about it at all. Cause like you said, "... .Bottom line... .these people don't have a bigger picture... ."  Well... . they do I guess, but they cant see or grasp it.  ”

It has confused me as I thought pwBPD experience overwhelming emotions? Also, he has contacted me numerous times since I ended it (January) and each time it arouses strong emotions in me and I’m certain he’s also experiencing strong emotions. Why else would he make contact? I am trying to understand what my ex is trying to do in keeping in contact with me despite the relationship ending last January. Is it because he is testing to see if the ‘attachment’ is still there and if so, what does he get out of it? Temporary soothing of abandonment issues maybe? Or could it be that he is experiencing a fleeting emotion that needs soothing so makes contact with me? Or, does he want me back? Or is his contact just a moment in time for him and means nothing and then he forgets about it and goes on with his life? I’m trying to work out what I mean to him post break-up. Does he still view me as an ‘attachment’ that might come back?

I'd also like to add that I sometimes think he might be trying to lure me back in to promptly reject me as I was the one to end it. He has a pattern of rejecting me. The push/pull and this scares me now as it's incredibly painful to experience as many of us know.

Why can't we both just have an open, honest conversation like 'normal' people? Just clear the air so we both know where we're coming from. It's upsetting and I'm contributing to it.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey L-

It has confused me as I thought pwBPD experience overwhelming emotions?

Borderlines, or more broadly folks without a real self of their own, do feel emotions intensely, like we all do at times, the difference being those of us with a real self have that to go back to for grounding, where someone without one does not, so the emotions are debilitating.  But borderlines have been experiencing that their whole lives, and have developed tools, a "false self", to deal with them, projection, compartmentalization, splitting, impulsive behaviors, whatever, to just feel better, and the tools are so effective that yes, in the borderline's experience they're not feeling whatever it is.  We all do those things to some extent, and to the extreme it's called mental illness.

I am trying to understand what my ex is trying to do in keeping in contact with me despite the relationship ending last January. Is it because he is testing to see if the ‘attachment’ is still there and if so, what does he get out of it?

Yes.  And what he gets out of it is the feeling he exists, since someone who didn't successfully detach from their primary caregiver and develop as an autonomous individual with a self of their own can literally feel like they don't exist without an attachment.  That's not a conscious thought mind you, it just shows up as feelings, and contacting you makes him feel better, for reasons he can't articulate.  I got a letter from my ex a couple of weeks ago, years after I left her, and she is still looking for an attachment, still feeling abandoned.  I don't know what's up for her in her life these days, but for some reason I popped up on her radar again; borderlines hate to lose an attachment.

I'd also like to add that I sometimes think he might be trying to lure me back in to promptly reject me as I was the one to end it. He has a pattern of rejecting me. The push/pull and this scares me now as it's incredibly painful to experience as many of us know.

Sure, him rejecting you is him in control.  Borderlines are big on control, they have to be.  But look how far you've come L.  You weren't in a place to be asking the questions you're asking now a while ago, and I say his ability to "lure" is pretty compromised by your detachment progress, wouldn't you?

Why can't we both just have an open, honest conversation like 'normal' people? Just clear the air so we both know where we're coming from. It's upsetting and I'm contributing to it.

Because mental illness.  And your best bet is to continue focusing on your contribution, the thing you can control, grow through and change.

[Larmoyant]

FHTH, it is difficult to get my head around the idea of being just an “attachment” for someone. At times it felt like real love from him, but I’ve thought about it some more. This may be a little muddled, apologies if so.

I suppose his continued contact is confusing as I am basing his actions on my own feelings. If that makes sense? I keep thinking that his contact means that he is still interested in a relationship with me. I mean, if I was doing that to him it would be because I wanted him still. I would have the mindset that maybe we could talk and possibly work things out. Only, in his case, if I am an ‘attachment’ his contact doesn’t mean that at all, and there is a very strong likelihood that if I allowed him back in, even to just talk, he’d push me away pretty quickly. Like he has before and also he is an absolute control freak and at times sadistic. I believe it is this knowledge and experience of him that has helped keep me away.


His feelings aren’t stable, they change, but then again so do mine. My head and heart are still battling it out.

I'm struggling right now. A while ago I was both hoping that he'd contact me, but at the same time hoping he didn't. Crazy. Now, I am just hoping that he will make further contact with me because I’m still hurting and also I’ve got used to it. This pattern has been going on for 8 months now. Him contacting me, not getting the response he desires, and then telling me ‘all the best’, ‘goodbye’ or ‘I’m moving on now’ and around and around it goes. Then again, maybe he is getting the response he desires, that is, if he is just checking to see if his attachment is still there.  8 months of this. I know I can stop it, but I don't. I am emotionally enmeshed, addicted, still hurting too much to stop it.

From my end, I have not instigated any contact with him, but I continue to respond. I need to investigate ‘why’ much more.

I am still struggling with just being an ‘attachment’. I would like him to have loved me as I did him. I can intellectualise it, but feeling it is a different matter. Even though I have come this far, learned a lot, I am tempted to put my hand back in the fire to test whether he will reject me again and then perhaps then I can say “no more” and block him everywhere I can think of. I'd have to be in a very strong place to try this.

I’m also currently fighting an urge to make contact with him, but that’s because I am feeling very down and fragile. There are other things going on in my life that are making me feel this way. I'm aware there is a connection so I’m managing to overcome this urge, and I feel stronger today then yesterday, but it’s a struggle all the same.

I sometimes wonder if I’m also mentally ill because I feel so horribly enmeshed with him that maybe something else is going on. I have been diagnosed with depression, but I hope I don’t have BPD. My therapist has assured me I don't, but I am seriously questioning my own mental stability here. Trying to understand and detach myself from a mentally ill person I loved dearly and was so hoping to share my life with is incredibly difficult.

[Larmoyant]

I got a letter from my ex a couple of weeks ago, years after I left her, and she is still looking for an attachment, still feeling abandoned.  I don't know what's up for her in her life these days, but for some reason I popped up on her radar again; borderlines hate to lose an attachment.

FHTH, can I please ask knowing what you do now have you responded to her?

[Sadly]

Good morning Lar
Good to hear you are feeling a bit stronger today, how is your mum doing?
Hope this will help, as you and I seem to be struggling with the same things. I tapped object constancy into search and came up with an explanation on psychforum about how Freud discovered it. Such a clever explanation. This isn't a cure all for us by any means, in fact at first it made me want to run to my ex even more to put my arms around him and help but from what I have read that would be the worst thing to do for both of us. It's tough and hard when we still love them but it is what it is.
I too have wondered if I have mental problems and have discovered codependency is up there but also I worry I have slight BPD traits myself, however I think and hope is just my exposure to his BPD for the last two years. Try not to worry, if we have issues we can sort them, my ex cannot even admit to them. I don't think I will ever stop loving him but that has to be ok, its significance will fade. I know one thing, if only he could admit he had this problem I would be with him in a heartbeat and here posting on the staying and improving board no matter how hard it would be, but sadly it's not going to happen.
Love and big hug from Sadly.    x

[fromheeltoheal]

FHTH, it is difficult to get my head around the idea of being just an “attachment” for someone. At times it felt like real love from him, but I’ve thought about it some more. This may be a little muddled, apologies if so.

You might try looking at it as you weren't "just" an attachment, an attachment is everything to a borderline, that perfect reenactment of that earliest bond with his primary caregiver, when he felt whole and everything was perfect.  So that love was real, although maybe not realistic, since the attachment part was based on a fantasy fusing of psyches.  Sure, a borderline can attach to lots of different people, but for the time you were together and it was good, it was you.  And again, he couldn't articulate it like that, it just shows up as emotions.

I suppose his continued contact is confusing as I am basing his actions on my own feelings. If that makes sense? I keep thinking that his contact means that he is still interested in a relationship with me. I mean, if I was doing that to him it would be because I wanted him still. I would have the mindset that maybe we could talk and possibly work things out.

Yes, it's common to conclude that someone with a personality disorder thinks the way you do, since that's pretty reliable in most cases, to empathize with someone and understand how they feel about something, but not with a borderline, they're wired differently.  And learning how they're wired, which you're doing here, can help a lot, take a lot of the confusion out of it.

His feelings aren’t stable, they change, but then again so do mine. My head and heart are still battling it out.

Yes, we all have dynamic emotions, always floating on an ocean of emotion, but most of us have a real self under all that, so even though things may get crazy emotionally, who we "are" under all that stays relatively constant.  Not for someone without a fully formed self of their own, they lack that compass that points true north so to speak, so their emotions become their reality.

8 months of this. I know I can stop it, but I don't. I am emotionally enmeshed, addicted, still hurting too much to stop it... .

Even though I have come this far, learned a lot, I am tempted to put my hand back in the fire to test whether he will reject me again and then perhaps then I can say “no more” and block him everywhere I can think of. I'd have to be in a very strong place to try this... .

Yes, you do go back to the same pattern pretty easily.  The only one who can change that is you, you're the one who will need to break the attachment, he won't because that doesn't feel good.  The key, as we've talked about a few times, is create a vision for a compelling future and move towards it; the best way to fight some things is to not fight them, create something new.  And if the pull is just too strong and you can't go there, breaking the pattern by doing something radically different may be the key, go somewhere for a while, hang out with new and different people, something to shake up your world, other than him, which will give you a new perspective, maybe the one you need to break that pattern.  Ever jump out of an airplane?  I mean strapped to someone with a parachute on, but something like that, a visceral experience, can be profound if you make it mean you're jumping out of your old life into a new one, for example.  Just sayin'... .

but I hope I don’t have BPD. My therapist has assured me I don't,

So probably good to trust your therapist yes?  A lot of the mental anguish we go through in these relationships is just stress, we're in the fight or flight mode because things just aren't right, cortisol levels spike in our blood for too long, all of that just makes us crazy.  And eliminating the stress makes all that better.  But you have to remove it from your life for an extended period of time.

[fromheeltoheal]

I got a letter from my ex a couple of weeks ago, years after I left her, and she is still looking for an attachment, still feeling abandoned.  I don't know what's up for her in her life these days, but for some reason I popped up on her radar again; borderlines hate to lose an attachment.

FHTH, can I please ask knowing what you do now have you responded to her?

She owed me money, not a lot and I thought I'd never see it, the cost of detachment, but there was a check in the letter, surprised the heck out of me, buying an attachment?  And the letter was peppered with idealization, still trying to get some response that an attachment is still in place after years apart.  Sorry sweetheart, ain't goin' there.

So I wrote a brief note on her letter thanking her and wishing her well, which was the right thing to do, plus she owes me more money and getting it would be cool.  Have you heard of BIFF?  We love our acronyms around here, but that one is a tool for not engaging with a borderline and expanded it's brief, informative, friendly and firm, which is what I did with the note, leaving no opening or indication that I wanted any kind of ongoing involvement with her whatsoever, and it felt good and right. 

I did get triggered for a while when I got the letter out of the mailbox, and it was interesting to work through the process, do all the things we talk about here, and within a couple of hours I was back to me fully, which I was proud of and celebrated it as a success.

[Larmoyant]

I know one thing, if only he could admit he had this problem I would be with him in a heartbeat and here posting on the staying and improving board no matter how hard it would be, but sadly it's not going to happen.
Love and big hug from Sadly.    x

Sadly, there would be no chance of my ex admitting he has a problem either. He takes responsibility for very little. I read the other boards sometimes and it seems like a very difficult task maintaining a relationship with a pwBPD, though sometimes I think I could try. I actually tried to use SET the other day when I responded to one of his messages, but failed spectacularly I think! Thank you for asking about my mum. She is very frail, but has a steely, inner strength and is doing better. She amazes me really. Doesn't complain. I'm terrified of losing her though and it makes me feel very vulnerable. She is the glue to the whole family. Love and big hug back to you Sadly.

Yes, you do go back to the same pattern pretty easily.  The only one who can change that is you, you're the one who will need to break the attachment, he won't because that doesn't feel good.  The key, as we've talked about a few times, is create a vision for a compelling future and move towards it; the best way to fight some things is to not fight them, create something new.  And if the pull is just too strong and you can't go there, breaking the pattern by doing something radically different may be the key, go somewhere for a while, hang out with new and different people, something to shake up your world, other than him, which will give you a new perspective, maybe the one you need to break that pattern.  Ever jump out of an airplane?  I mean strapped to someone with a parachute on, but something like that, a visceral experience, can be profound if you make it mean you're jumping out of your old life into a new one, for example.  Just sayin'... .

FHTH, you have helped me a lot, thank you. I've printed this part out as it makes complete sense. You've mentioned this to me and others before and I just know it's the way to go. I can't do anything radically different yet, but maybe just something different like starting to write again and really mean it this time. Despite the sadness going on around me I can do this and I'm going to keep telling myself I can until I do.

[Sadly]

Hi Lar,
Am sure we are talking about the same person. Did you see him Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and me Thursday, Friday, Saturday with Sunday off for good behaviour    . Don't be worrying about failing SET, apparently I practised BIFF and I didn't even know.  .
Happy to hear your mum is picking up a bit, you too sound like you have inherited some of her inner strength, if you hadn't you wouldn't be sticking to your resolve of NC all this time, never mind about the wobbles we keep having, that's normal, you are still sticking to it. I like to feel my mum is watching over me. I used to think she would be so ashamed at how pathetic I was being but the reality is she would be very proud of the effort I am making. Keep reading your journal, I will keep reading my email, we can do it my lovely. 
Love from Sadly xx

[lovenature]

From my end, I have not instigated any contact with him, but I continue to respond. I need to investigate ‘why’ much more.

I did the same thing, we get used to their constant attempts to recycle (maintain an attachment).
I found the "encounters" I had with my ex. were even more painful than trying again for a relationship; my head knew I shouldn't respond, but my heart opened the door.

Learning about why I stayed in a toxic relationship and continually put my ex.'s feelings ahead of mine was very painful, but an opportunity to have a better future.

Try to do what is best for YOU L., I know how hard that can be.

[972to214]

From my end, I have not instigated any contact with him, but I continue to respond. I need to investigate ‘why’ much more.

I am still struggling with just being an ‘attachment’. I would like him to have loved me as I did him. I can intellectualise it, but feeling it is a different matter. Even though I have come this far, learned a lot, I am tempted to put my hand back in the fire to test whether he will reject me again and then perhaps then I can say “no more” and block him everywhere I can think of. I'd have to be in a very strong place to try this.

I’m also currently fighting an urge to make contact with him, but that’s because I am feeling very down and fragile. There are other things going on in my life that are making me feel this way. I'm aware there is a connection so I’m managing to overcome this urge, and I feel stronger today then yesterday, but it’s a struggle all the same.

I sometimes wonder if I’m also mentally ill because I feel so horribly enmeshed with him that maybe something else is going on. I have been diagnosed with depression, but I hope I don’t have BPD. My therapist has assured me I don't, but I am seriously questioning my own mental stability here. Trying to understand and detach myself from a mentally ill person I loved dearly and was so hoping to share my life with is incredibly difficult.

I can't tell you how much I relate to the above. I fell deeply in love with my exBPDGF (a year and a half relationship) and while it seems that I too have read voraciously on the subject of BPD and I've been able to associate our experience with "typical BPD behavior" and therefore have intellectualized it in the context of that psychological framework, it's feels improbable or even impossible that I'll literally ever not maintain hope that I will be able to rekindle a relationship with the woman I too loved so dearly and was CONVINCED would remain in my life as committed true partner forever. We both told each other that we couldn't imagine living without each other. And, then I got too close (moved in together) and then the distancing and devaluation tactics started and it was a veritable death spiral thereafter. I am WAY earlier into the NC than you --- 11 days (or about a month if you count the rocky hiatus immediately proceeding our official break-up where we only spent one night together and communicated off/on) --- I feel like if I ran into her at the grocery store, I would break down crying in the store. I also struggle with "what it means" that I am similarly enmeshed and arguably addicted to the way in which she made me feel during the "honeymoon" (first entire YEAR) of our relationship --- it was over-the-top and intense and we both LOVED it times eleven. Sometimes I feel like I am the crazy one and that her projection wasn't truly projection and that it was somehow mostly if not all my emotional baggage that was the root cause of our demise. That's certainly the way she presented things towards the end and since in part because she's so bright, she was undeniably persuasive --- even persuasive to me and I know I'm exceptionally smart. As my therapist calls out, it's a "mind F%$#" and it stems from overwhelming childhood trauma. I strongly believe that while my exBPDGF possesses the capacity and strong desire to love, she's severely conflicted as a result of her being emotionally developmentally arrested by way of unrequited love and engulfment during childhood which ultimately has led to extreme abandonment fear which led to an attachment fear which manifested itself as a fear of commitment, hence our break-up --- the closer I got to her, the more she needed distance... .and, then finally she ran away for good. Thanks, honey!

[Larmoyant]

972to214, I've read your previous post and my heart goes out to you. It's early days for you, but things really will get better.  You will survive this. I cannot even believe I just wrote that because I was so down I thought I'd never get back up, but I did and so will you. I promise. 

I fell deeply in love with my exBPDGF (a year and a half relationship) and while it seems that I too have read voraciously on the subject of BPD and I've been able to associate our experience with "typical BPD behavior" and therefore have intellectualized it in the context of that psychological framework,it's feels improbable or even impossible that I'll literally ever not maintain hope that I will be able to rekindle a relationship with the woman I too loved so dearly and was CONVINCED would remain in my life as committed true partner forever.

I completely understand. Your heart needs to catch up with your head. It will, but in the meantime 'hope' is very, very difficult to let go of, and it keeps us there. It's not helped that we've become conditioned to the push/pull. The on again/off again nature of the relationship keeps hope alive I think, with the expectation of yet another recycle and hope that things will be different this time. I still have painful lingering feelings of hope, but they're fading, truly. Keep reading, writing, learning, and as you process it all you'll become stronger and it will hurt less. Hope is beginning to be replaced by acceptance now. My hearts catching up with my head.

.I feel like if I ran into her at the grocery store, I would break down crying in the store.

.

I fled a supermarket once, left my groceries, because they played a song that triggered me. I cried all the way home, but please don't be afraid if that happens to you. Fromheeltoheal says crying is pain leaving (or something similar) and it's good to get it all out. heartandwhole also told me to feel the feelings as they arise, the sadness, the anger, the resentment, the pure grief, don't push things down, process and work your way through them. Gradually you'll be able to step away from them a little and just observe them. It took me a while, but I can do this now and when overcome with emotion, when you're in the thick of it, it really helps.

. Sometimes I feel like I am the crazy one and that her projection wasn't truly projection and that it was somehow mostly if not all my emotional baggage that was the root cause of our demise. That's certainly the way she presented things towards the end and since in part because she's so bright, she was undeniably persuasive --- even persuasive to me and I know I'm exceptionally smart. As my therapist calls out, it's a "mind F%$#" and it stems from overwhelming childhood trauma.

.

Yes, blaming and projecting their issues onto everyone but themselves seems to be a highly practiced BPD skill. It's very important not to blame yourself. We feel crazy because it is crazy. Not knowing if you're coming or going makes your head spin. I'd say that her (his in my case) issues most definitely signalled the demise of the relationship, but our emotional issues play a role too. Examining your part in all of this will really help you. With the help of this site and my therapist I uncovered deep seated negative beliefs that originated in my childhood, which were being triggered over and over by my ex's behaviour. Fresh wounds on top of old ones. Totally debilitating and they can keep you stuck. My therapist has been invaluable helping me process of all this. Have you discussed this with yours?

. I strongly believe that while my exBPDGF possesses the capacity and strong desire to love, she's severely conflicted as a result of her being emotionally developmentally arrested by way of unrequited love and engulfment during childhood which ultimately has led to extreme abandonment fear which led to an attachment fear which manifested itself as a fear of commitment, hence our break-up --- the closer I got to her, the more she needed distance... .and, then finally she ran away for good. Thanks, honey!

.

I also believe my ex possesses a strong desire to love, but without the capacity to sustain it. He also possesses a seemingly strong desire to hate me as well. It's sad and it's difficult to come to terms with. It seems we can't have one without the other. 

972to214, you seem to have a really good grasp of this disorder. It took me a while to wade through all the emotions to really understand it. I still have much to learn, but it has really helped me.

I know you're hurting right now and it's all raw, but it does get better. I was suicidal at one point and not so long ago, but something has shifted in the last few days and I know I'm going to be ok. You will too.