I've been through this for a very long time ...

[jonquiljo99]

Hi Everyone,
I'm no stranger to living with someone with BPD, as I have lived that way most of my life.  Ironically, only did I realize my mother has BPD - but an 91, the anger has flamed out of her and she can barely remember who I am.  It has actually taught me that this is a disorder that relies on memories to manifest itself.  When someone become senile or loses a good deal of the recollection of the past - for whatever reason - the anger goes away.  I interpret this as a learned trait that can lose its triggers.  I also feel this makes me want to forgive what had been at times, unforgivable.  But that relationship ended years ago and I am grown and then some - actually close to retirement age.

My painful relationship is with my wife - whom I have known for a long time has had many emotional disorders - but I love her nevertheless.  I see this as part of my marriage and not simply something to walk away from.  To totally distort a famous line - we have had the best times, and the worst times.  We've been together for more than 25 years and this is just part of life.  That is not to say that it is easy.  It's about the hardest thing I have ever done.  We have had months, even years that have been calm and without conflict - but we have had months and years where I wish at times I had never met her.  I really don't mean that, but it's about the only defense mechanism I can think of.

My wife has a number of crippling medical problems.  For a while I wondered if they were not part of the melodrama.  It's clear to me know that it is all real.  I guess I have known that - and am looking fo an excuse or reason to get angry.  But I can't.  If the roles were reversed she would deal with me.  And yes, I am sure I am not the easiest person to live with in any circumstance.
It wasn't till over 10 years ago, when she tried to commit suicide, did I actually realize what I was dealing with.  Multiple therapists told me to pack my bags and leave.  I just don't see that as an answer when people have problems in a marriage.  It is no different than if she has MS or some physical chronic disease.  She can't help the way she is - and I know that now.

I've been up, down, sideways and backwards about this for a very long time.  Several years ago I decided to just accept it.  The truth is that I don't know if I am co-dependent (I hate labels like that anyway).  What I do know is that I couldn't possibly live without her.  I am just "lucky" enough to have fallen in love with someone with such a potentially hurtful problem.  So here I am in it for better or for worse.  I guess I learned that kid of loyalty from my father - who endured it until the day he died.

What is my biggest issue - well there are many things that upset me and years ago I was a member of lots of boards trying to find answers to what really bothered me.  I guess people at that time just wanted to tell me to leave without giving any good reason.  I found that distasteful. But I digress.  I think I am most hurt by the constant accusations of being abusive- as if everything I can possibly say that isn't to her liking becomes a total assault on her personality.  And no, I wouldn't ever hit her - though I will be the first to admit that the thought had crossed my mind.  But that isn't me.  I'm just someone who tries hard to live life and be a part of the world.  Nut frankly - right now anyway - if I hear a rage telling me how what I see as innocuous statements that I make are so hurtful and abusive I am going to scream. 

I think our fight tonight was the event that led me to seek help.  I spent 40 years off and on in therapy and decided that it wasn't for me.  I want to interact with people who actually life life in ways that I do.  I want to talk to people that have been treated the way I have been, told what I have been told.  I hope someday I can help others as well.  At 63 I am not clueless, but really just hurting.

That is my story.  I didn't think that I could write so much.  The spell checker helps!  This is where I am now.  It shows you that no matter how long you think you understand a problem, you really don't.  Thanks a lot for listening.
J.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[jonquiljo99]

I guess I want to ask here - if anyone is told so many times that you are the abusive one, that you begin to believe them?

Logically I know that what I say is being turned around against me - that while I have times I get annoyed and angry, I mostly try very hard to respect their boundaries no matter how unfair they are.  The reality is that I hear this over and over again and wonder if it isn't true - yet after looking at what I have said and done it couldn't possibly be true.  Does this make sense to anyone here?   I feel sometimes like I am on another planet and the rules at home are totally different - and things could blow up at a moment's notice no matter what I say or do.

[Mutt]

Hi jonquiljo99,



It makes perfect sense. I recall my ex accusing me of being abusive and that's when I thought crossed my mind that I might in an abusive r/s. Also, I really felt like I was losing my mind, she way things that I had no recollection of saying it but she almost had me convinced that maybe I did say it, the she'd alter what she said again and I was just so confused, several years of this and I started feeling like I was losing my mind.

My ex wife's reality is as real to her as mine is to me, she alters reality to match her out of place feelings, reality is open ti debate, emotions and feelings are real. I don't JADE, justify , attack, defend or explain because if I do, conflict ensues and it just keeps going because it will trigger negative feelings with my ex and she alters reality again. Keeping that un my mind, I'll.let her believe what see wants to believe and I listen to my intuition,  trust it and I don't let her dissociations waver me from reality. I very useful tool to stop conflict is to not JADE.

Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)

What else did she say?

[ArleighBurke]

BPDs certainly wear us down. Like the dripping water - except it's more like a brick... .

I think it's so hard for people who havn't lived with a BPD to understand the constant pressure, the put-downs, the remarks, the emotional manipulation. But I think everyone here has been through it... .

Congrats for staying tough through 25 years! That is a great commitment. You must have a lot of good wisdom you could share - about what you have found to help, what doesn't... .

[waverider]

I guess you get sick of people trying to telll you to turn dysfunctional personality into "normal" by doing XYZ, or give up.

A relationship can be happily dysfunctional, it is not essential to iron out dysfunction. The important thing is to not loose your perspective and normalize dysfunction to the point you loose your own center. That is the hard part when you are saturated with it. This is where Radical Acceptance comes in

Being fingered as the abuser is simply a way for the other person to give themselves a role, and that is of the victim. Hence not capable, or responsible, to resolve issues.

ie Not my fault, I can't help, you are a bully, its your fault. All part of avoidance coping mechanism for hard to face reality situations. We all feel like doing it at times, the problem with pwBPD is they dont really empathize with the impact it has on those they label as abusers. to them it is a "victimless" action.

What they are actually doing is bullying. Sometimes this creates a reaction, bringing out the reactive bully in others, and hence validating the claim.

It is a dynamic that sees pwBPD creating their own bullies.

[jonquiljo99]

BPDs certainly wear us down. Like the dripping water - except it's more like a brick... .

I think it's so hard for people who havn't lived with a BPD to understand the constant pressure, the put-downs, the remarks, the emotional manipulation. But I think everyone here has been through it... .

Congrats for staying tough through 25 years! That is a great commitment. You must have a lot of good wisdom you could share - about what you have found to help, what doesn't... .

Thanks for the comments.  I am slowly figuring out how to quote and double quote.  Boards have more features as time goes on, but I'll figure it out.

A good part of the 25 years we have been together (actually 27), I had no idea she had BPD.  My sister had a psychologist friend casually diagnose my mother about 15 years ago, and it made sense.  She is/was textbook - so I guess it wasn't hard. My wife wasn't so simple.

I never figured anything out about my wife until about 10 years ago.  That leave a long time where I was clueless to what was happening.  So wise I am not.  We had a rather shocking "incident" - (that I will probably talk about at some other time), and then I just put 2 and 2 together.  Lucky, I guess.  It's difficult since (at least until recently) most psychologists would not diagnose people with BPD as the person with BPD would not accept it well and they'd lose the patient.  Most of all, as the spouse of one, the last thing you want to think about is having to deal with something very difficult.  :)enial can be a powerful thing.  When you get older - I guess there are worse things that happen more often in life, with so acceptance is not nearly as big a problem.  I guess I've seen too many friends deal with terminal illness in a SO that it makes other problems seem lesser in comparison.  I also think that as we get older we learn that life never turns out as we expected it so we just accept problems more readily.  I think 60 was a big milestone for me as I just saw everything to be so different than I had seen them before.

But BPD is certainly no picnic to live with, and I don't mean to trivialize it.  Certainly not me!  I have had a BPD in my life almost as long as I have been alive.  I've learned I cannot change them or how they act.  All I can do is change how I react to what they do at times.  Some things are easier than others when it comes to your reaction.  It's when I hear things over and over again - in my case, that I am abusive, that I wonder.  I rationally say, "No, that is far from the case."  But deep inside, it's a lot harder to accept.  It's funny in that I am a very intense person at times, but when it comes to BPD, I just have learned to watch it- and be detached.  That doesn't take the hurt away - but it helps.  Perhaps the abuser issue is a sore point with me as I saw my mother emotionally abuse my father for years.  That's about all I can think of.

[jonquiljo99]

I guess I'm replying to myself - the board equivalent to talking to myself.  I was really down tonight as my wife went ballistic again (I never can get used to it when it starts up every few days).  Instead of self-pity, I read about "Ilovemyhusband" - and even responded.  I really am happy for her.

Just a brief bit about me, I think over the years I have gotten so isolated from the real world that I am lost in my wife's world.  It gets to me from a number of perspectives.  I have no friends left.  She has no friends left.  We both don't work - mostly because we are fortunate not to have to.  I say fortunate, but in this case I think it is a curse, not a blessing.

I really in my own little world.  I live in the San Francisco Bay area not that far north from San Quentin Prison in the North Bay.  When I drive by there, I am almost jealous that the people in there have more of their life than I do.  I guess reading around this board is bringing all this back up to the surface.  I love my wife, could never leave her- even if I wanted to (I would never leave a physically disabled person on their own with no one).  But I really don't like my life anymore.  My early 60's - and I feel like I have a few years left if I am lucky.  Worst of all, I can't even get excited about that.  I am not a self destructive person, but I am getting closer than I have ever felt before.  That means I am desperate here - all alone in someone else's world - locked up with their emotional and physical problems.  I even dread getting up every morning.  Well that's it for now.  I really am going to be OK.

But it's lonely in here!  Thanks for listening.

[Notwendy]

Welcome to this board- I think I can help with the accusations of being abusive. I have heard them from my severe ( and elderly ) BPD mother and an H with some traits. At first, I was dumbfounded. I have struggled with co-dependency and people pleasing. If anything, I am too nice to people, and before I got help for co-dependency, was so reluctant to stand up for myself- people could walk all over me.

How on earth could someone tell me I was being hurtful to them?

There are two ideas to study. One is the drama triangle. I don't have a study to support my opinion- but it seems to me that "victim" is the perspective position of someone with BPD. This leaves two other roles for people who relate to them: Rescuer, and Persecutor. So, I feel I can be easily placed into their persecutor from their point of view.

This isn't necessarily true- that I was being hurtful- as this isn't my tendency to do so, but if feelings feel like facts to a pwBPD, then they could believe it.

I have also found that approaching them from a victim perspective feels like an attack. I guess this makes sense if they feel like a victim. The example I have is from when my father passed away and I was grieving. If I made a statement about being sad, or how hard it was to lose a father, her reply was often " well what about me? I lost a husband! Don't you care about me? It was as if there was no space for two grieving people- to her, my grief seemed to mean hers didn't count?

The other ideas are JADE and lessons on validation. I found from listening to my mother that seemingly harmless comments were perceived by her as invalidating, and when she felt invalidated, she felt as if she was being attacked. One of them would be suggestions. I think pwBPD have trauma that is easily triggered. Once I made a seemingly innocent suggestion to my mother about some work being done on the house. The response was to fly into a rage because basically, to her, I told her she was not capable of handling it. I didn't say any such thing- she heard it like that. I didn't resort to WOE with her, but by learning to speak in a more validating way, I have reduced some interactions like this.

I have not changed my perspective- or WOE, but seeing this from my mother's point of view has helped me understand hers.

Also, like you, my father was completely in love with my mother- even if it was hard for him at times. I think he felt much like you do.

[ArleighBurke]

I can understand taking stock of your life and feeling a loss. I have done the same at 40. My friends network is not what I'd like - my social life is almost non-existent- my own interests and drives are gone.

I understand WHY I am here - that I have allowed myself to be affected by her and to live in her world. But that is not her fault - really it is mine.

I am so far from where I want my life to be - the thought of getting it all back is so overwhelming.

But it is MY LIFE. Surely I deserve that! I know that I will be fighting her every step of the way - fighting to go out, fighting to have friends, fighting to have interests. But I think it'll be worth it. And really, she'll complain no matter what i do - so why not have her complain about sometrhing I want!

You may have 20-30 years left - that sounds like plenty of time to me... .

[waverider]

I have also found that approaching them from a victim perspective feels like an attack. I guess this makes sense if they feel like a victim. The example I have is from when my father passed away and I was grieving. If I made a statement about being sad, or how hard it was to lose a father, her reply was often " well what about me? I lost a husband! Don't you care about me? It was as if there was no space for two grieving people- to her, my grief seemed to mean hers didn't count?

pwBPD are certainly entrenched in the Drama triangle, and in their black and white world there are only 3 separate roles, no one is a mixture of more than one at any one time.

A person who is meeting their needs=rescuer
A person who is denying/not providing the needs-persecutor/abuser.
pwBPD is mainly victim with forays into rescuer and persecutor mode as and when they choose.

If you play victim, then they must then assume the role of either rescuer or persecutor, so their first task is to ascertain as to whether thy are being held accountable for any part in it so they can determine whether you see them as a rescuer or persecutor.

They often like the brownie points that comes with being seen as rescuer, it also validates that victim is a real role "hey know you know how I feel when... ." . Any feeling they get that they be being held accountable means your are labeling them as persecutor. This is not the role that suits them. They interrogate you to determine this, if they sense this they then revert to being victim and try to throw the persecutor role back onto you for even considering blaming them. Your issue then being given no air time.

When they do choose to be persecutor it is validated as victim standing up for themselves, and as such justifiable.

Often subject matter is secondary, it is about maintaining their place/identity on the drama triangle. Without the drama triangle they have no identity as their life is otherwise empty.

Hence you are stuck in this Ground Hog day making no net games, simply shifting the day's agenda.

Stepping out of your assigned role in the Triangle is the only way for you to make any progress.