NC: Who's responsible?

[Depression = 72% of members]

The phone works both ways.  I last spoke to my mother on mother's day; I called her. This is where I last left off: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295294.0

We never did travel to see the fireworks in July.  It was over 100F. D4 and I can't take the heat, though we did travel to the mountains 3 weeks ago finally.  I didn't check on my mother even though we were only six miles away.  I wouldn't bring my kids into an unknown situation.  Yeah,  good excuse.  I never heard a word after May from the people in the mountains who were calling me, in effect asking me to rescue her even though she forced my hand to take her back to her filthy horde  (like the worst episodes on that tv show,  with block mold and ceilings caving in due to a roof that leaked for years from rain and snow). She did thank me a few times,  in-between saying how I and her nurse practitioner "shafted" her.  I saved her life last winter. 

I texted my buddy the other night and he said he saw my mom driving around town.  Her license had been suspended due to multiple complaints about her driving,  the last she told me.  My buddy said that the truck looked cleaner than he'd seen it in a long time.  The last time he saw it was in April when I had him keep it on his property while she lived with us in the city over last winter.  I gave her the truck when I bought my car in 2009. She blew the clutch,  then the engine,  within the first two years, but got them fixed.  

My educated guess is that she's found,  yet again,  people to caretake her, and vice versa.  Given that no one's called me,  nor her, it's a good bet I've been disowned.  Of what,  you ask?  The 5 acres and the Shack which needs 5 gallons of diesel and a Strike Anywhere match.  Then the 2 acres of her dead husband for which my same buddy and his dad paid her $10k 15 years ago as a down payment,  but she never got it through probate, so they didn't make additional payments in all this time until that was done.  Another $20k. Maybe she's changed the will by now.  No matter.  My net worth is many times that,  subtracting out her debts.  I don't want to deal with the legal mess.  

So how do I feel?  Relieved on the one hand,  that she's "adopted" yet another contingent. The last family in the early 2000s it was cool until well,  you know,  BPD, and I had to show up with a "posse" and demand they move out after they were threatening her and it was like the movie Pacific Heights. That was the young woman  (with 4 children) whom my mom wanted to adopt as a 28 year old.  They wanted her property. Another situation similar to what happened twice either side of 1980 with two families who had moved into her house, everyone bonded and friendly until it went south almost overnight.  My mom "adopts" or "rescues" then splits them black.  Those she finds aren't the healthiest themselves.  

I'm still not saying how I feel.  I'm analyzing and stating facts.  

My mother was my only family,  and I've given it up.  Yes,  now I have two kids,  but it's similar to what my T had me do in the first sessions 3 years ago: write my story,  where I came from.  I knew why he was doing that, but honestly I thought it was stupid vis-a-vis myself.  I know where I came from (a toddler in foster care abandoned by two addict parents and my birth mother's parents who were too weak to take care of me even though they were middle class white bread--- two college professors). I knew where I went  (adopted by a mentally ill single mother in the early 70s who was bucking the system). I know where I am.  

What I don't know is if not reaching out to my mother is right.  I'm all about doing the "right thing" by her, my kids,  my ex,  anybody. I think I should call her,  especially with the holidays coming up and a snowy winter approaching.  I know I should,  but I don't want to.  

My T told me a long time ago,  "sometimes the strong are chosen to protect the weak." It sounds like something from spiderman,  or maybe The Bible.  The sentiment,  at least.  "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Does that describe my mother?  My ex?  I had an 18 year break,  then my ex,  a 2 year break,  then my mother again.  I certainly feel poor in spirt quite a bit, but I also feel guilty for feeling that way.  Not sure where to go from here,  if anywhere,  or to just deal with it as I've always done.  

[Turkish]

The phone works both ways.  I last spoke to my mother on mother's day; I called her. This is where I last left off: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295294.0

We never did travel to see the fireworks in July.  It was over 100F. D4 and I can't take the heat, though we did travel to the mountains 3 weeks ago finally.  I didn't check on my mother even though we were only six miles away.  I wouldn't bring my kids into an unknown situation.  Yeah,  good excuse.  I never heard a word after May from the people in the mountains who were calling me, in effect asking me to rescue her even though she forced my hand to take her back to her filthy horde  (like the worst episodes on that tv show,  with block mold and ceilings caving in due to a roof that leaked for years from rain and snow). She did thank me a few times,  in-between saying how I and her nurse practitioner "shafted" her.  I saved her life last winter. 

I texted my buddy the other night and he said he saw my mom driving around town.  Her license had been suspended due to multiple complaints about her driving,  the last she told me.  My buddy said that the truck looked cleaner than he'd seen it in a long time.  The last time he saw it was in April when I had him keep it on his property while she lived with us in the city over last winter.  I gave her the truck when I bought my car in 2009. She blew the clutch,  then the engine,  within the first two years, but got them fixed.  

My educated guess is that she's found,  yet again,  people to caretake her, and vice versa.  Given that no one's called me,  nor her, it's a good bet I've been disowned.  Of what,  you ask?  The 5 acres and the Shack which needs 5 gallons of diesel and a Strike Anywhere match.  Then the 2 acres of her dead husband for which my same buddy and his dad paid her $10k 15 years ago as a down payment,  but she never got it through probate, so they didn't make additional payments in all this time until that was done.  Another $20k. Maybe she's changed the will by now.  No matter.  My net worth is many times that,  subtracting out her debts.  I don't want to deal with the legal mess.  

So how do I feel?  Relieved on the one hand,  that she's "adopted" yet another contingent. The last family in the early 2000s it was cool until well,  you know,  BPD, and I had to show up with a "posse" and demand they move out after they were threatening her and it was like the movie Pacific Heights. That was the young woman  (with 4 children) whom my mom wanted to adopt as a 28 year old.  They wanted her property. Another situation similar to what happened twice either side of 1980 with two families who had moved into her house, everyone bonded and friendly until it went south almost overnight.  My mom "adopts" or "rescues" then splits them black.  Those she finds aren't the healthiest themselves.  

I'm still not saying how I feel.  I'm analyzing and stating facts.  

My mother was my only family,  and I've given it up.  Yes,  now I have two kids,  but it's similar to what my T had me do in the first sessions 3 years ago: write my story,  where I came from.  I knew why he was doing that, but honestly I thought it was stupid vis-a-vis myself.  I know where I came from (a toddler in foster care abandoned by two addict parents and my birth mother's parents who were too weak to take care of me even though they were middle class white bread--- two college professors). I knew where I went  (adopted by a mentally ill single mother in the early 70s who was bucking the system). I know where I am.  

What I don't know is if not reaching out to my mother is right.  I'm all about doing the "right thing" by her, my kids,  my ex,  anybody. I think I should call her,  especially with the holidays coming up and a snowy winter approaching.  I know I should,  but I don't want to.  

My T told me a long time ago,  "sometimes the strong are chosen to protect the weak." It sounds like something from spiderman,  or maybe The Bible.  The sentiment,  at least.  "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Does that describe my mother?  My ex?  I had an 18 year break,  then my ex,  a 2 year break,  then my mother again.  I certainly feel poor in spirt quite a bit, but I also feel guilty for feeling that way.  Not sure where to go from here,  if anywhere,  or to just deal with it as I've always done.  

[HappyChappy]

Hi Turk,

I’m sorry you’re struggling with what are clearly challenging times.
If it helps Turk, you clearly do a lot for others, with your charity work, and hence I imagine you’re unlikely to do too little for your mom. Is it possibly you’re more likely to forget your own needs, than those of your family ?

But to answer your question “NC, who’s responsible.” Surely the one using it as a manipulation technique is responsible.  Undiagnosed BPD tend to give us two options, to submit to their will and “walk on eggshells” etc... or guard against it (LC, NC etc... .). We think they place us in a no win situation, but in truth we always have the option to step outside of their dysfunctional dance.  Considering your own needs, what would best suit you in the scenario Turk ? 
 

[Notwendy]

Hi Turkish,

I can identify with your feelings of being disowned. When my father died, my mother basically disowned me.

I could have walked away at that point. Nobody would have blamed me. It wasn't about any inheritance- I wanted some sentimental things that belonged to my father, and she refused to let me have them. There was no reason for me to stay in contact other than, my own difficulty with my own ethics.We did keep in touch and she then decided to have me back in the will.

Now, she acts as if nothing like this ever happened.

My own task is to not return the Karma. I was little and helpless as a child, but I am not helpless now. She is elderly. I don't need to behave with her as if she could hurt me. It is a fine line to be caring and present while maintaining boundaries and not erring on being cruel.

As far as NC goes, the responsibility for my part in it is mine. She is responsible for her choices. I maintained contact by calling her periodically. Sometimes weeks can go by without her calling me. But sometimes she calls me more frequently. A wise person advised me that if I chose to keep in contact- to maintain a schedule- a weekly call- no matter what. This gives a sense of regularity- that isn't dependent on her behavior or drama. She can pick up the phone or not.

Turkish, I think the answer you seek is purely about you. You made an attempt to help your mother when she moved in with you. I know personally, that I could not do this and keep my sanity. You feel like you should call your mother, but you don't want to. By focusing on your feelings I think you will arrive at your answer. It is the one that honors you as a person.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have pondered a lot about FOG since learning about it on this site.
I have thought about how I want others to treat me as well.
Somewhere, I decided, that I really do not want anyone only calling me out of a sense of obligation. (Or interacting with me from a position of FOG of any sense) I really rather them be motivated intrinsically somehow.  Sure, sometimes guilt may cause someone to call and thank me for a gift or such, but I guess if it is FOG alone that is allowing the relationship to sustain, is it really a genuine relationship?  What is it at that point?

I have some more pondering myself to do on these things because eliminating all FOG certainly seems a bit black/white, as in the case of thanking someone for a gift or such.

Yet I do run decision through my head and go through a process of... .
1. First remove all FOG - NOW what do I really want to do?
2. Now balance in some social norms and such and reconsider how I look at #1 and how it may/may not get affected.

I am trying to look more at my motivations, desires, and how they all line up with my values and boundaries.  Tricky, but removing the FOG part and thinking how I may act if I had no outside expectations, then start with myself and expand from there seems to be helping me feel aligned a bit.

[Notwendy]

For me, it isn't easy to draw a line between obligation and what I want to do with regards of contact with my mother.

I have to admit to being ambivalent when it comes to my relationship with her. Perhaps this is typical of a relationship with someone with BPD- sometimes it is good, and sometimes it is very difficult.

BPD is a spectrum disorder. For some people- the bad truly predominates- serious horrific abuse that for some people NC is a logical and important step to take.

Other circumstances add to the decision. My mother does not live very close to me, so distance is a boundary. Thankfully she has sufficient resources to get assistance. This plays a factor as well.

I try to stay focused on radical acceptance- it is what it is and she is the mother that I have, and my feelings about her are very mixed at best.

[WendyDavid]

Hi Turkish

You are in a tough place between nobility and dignity.  There is also loyalty and self value factored in.  Notwendy has a good suggestion with scheduling contact.  This allows you to "do the right thing" and still have your own terms.  This also allows for you to contact her when you are emotionally prepared.

When you say you should contact her but you don't want to, it sounds like you are an adult trying to protect your self-esteem from your primary caregiver.  As an adult, you know that she is never going to change and you are acting as the caregiver to her.  As a son, you place a lot of value in her opinion/feelings of you.  Absolutely, you should have a standard for respect and certain affection in a family relationship.  When you know that you've done everything to convey that you deserve that respect/love and she is not giving it, you can see it is her failure.  That is her handicap.

Eventually, you will weigh out the choices and consequences of whether or not to contact.  In the end, you will do what you value the most.

[Fie]

Hello Turkish,

NC can be really hard sometimes. I don't know if you have read any of my threats - my mum and grandma both are BPD and we have NC. They initiated it more or less (LC) and at one point in time I thought it was a good idea to make the LC a NC - less stress for me.

I used to have a very good bond with my grandma, until she dysregulated last Christmas and I found out about  the BPD. Since then I have only seen her once. I tried to phone a few times but she was resentful and angry and didn't want to see me. Today I woke up missing her and wondering if I should contact her.  Normally I am more or less fine with the NC. I have one child, and that's it. My other grandma, who I had a good relationship with, died last summer. Usually I'm dealing pretty well being by myself but today, I don't know, I miss grandma.

Sorry for the story, I don't want to hijack your thread  ;-)  I just wanted to tell you that you are not alone.

Do you feel like you are missing your mum ? Or do you only feel FOG and is this why you want to contact her ?

My T told me a long time ago,  "sometimes the strong are chosen to protect the weak."

I'm sure your T used this phrase in a specific context.
At first side, the weak in your life seem to be your kids. Correct ?
Your mum does not seem weak to me. She's still driving and from what you have heard from your friend it seems like someone is taking care of her.
There is also this, the weak need to *want* to be protected in order for us to be able to protect them. It's like with my grandma. I feel like I'm put in a double bind. She lives alone in this big house (she likes living there). I used to go there weekly to check up on her. Today I feel inclined to do that, too. But she doesn't *want* me to visit. Like you said, the phone works both ways... .So are we obligated to every few months 'test the water', phone them and see if they still don't want to talk ? Is that the right thing ? Or is that just self torture ?

[Panda39]

I think for me if your mom was reaching out then it would be time to decide what you want the relationship to be, what your boundaries are, do you want a relationship at all.  Since she is not reaching out to you and you are feeling conflicted about reaching out to her I would let sleeping dogs (wolves  ) lie.  You have already reached out to her and here we are back to square one.

Your story reminds me of my dad and his older sister.  She had mental illness, was a hot mess, drug seeking at multiple doctors, struggled financially etc.  He got her all straightened out, got her support services, affordable housing etc.  Then she blew it and went back to her old ways... .she just wasn't capable of managing like the rest of us would.  He loved is sister but he realized that no matter what he did to help her, she would be incapable of sustaining a "normal" life.  He loved his sister but was able to let go.  Radical acceptance.

I think those conflicted feelings are telling you something.  I know when I feel that way that I am feeling obligated.  My suggestion is let it go for now, you have a lot on your plate already with your kids and ex.  Also, don't forget to take time for you.  You can always revisit this at anytime.  Your mom is out there doing her thing... .not in a way you would like or think is best... .but it is her thing.

Panda39

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  How have you been?  

Some observations:

I didn't check on my mother even though we were only six miles away.  I wouldn't bring my kids into an unknown situation.  Yeah,  good excuse.

 Nope, that is not an excuse.  That is a rule that takes the safety of your kids into account given what you know of your mom's situation.  You made this decision based on historical fact.  This is not an excuse.  Your kids are under your protection and you get to make decisions about what is good for them separate from your mother and what you feel you "should" do for your mother.  

I know you let your mother go physically, but it sounds like you are still holding on emotionally to her.  Of course the feelings you have about her don't just stop, we know that, but the need to rescue, the feeling of obligation (maybe even seperate from FOG) and most importantly, the reminder you have in your byline here:
Value yourself for who you are, not for what you are to others. might need some exploring?

When you do not contact her, what are your thoughts?  What are you feelings- gut reaction?  Have these thoughts and feelings been influenced by a lifetime of defining *you* based on what you do for others?  

You are a rescuer and a fixer.  Those are not necessarily bad things and you do not need to give them up entirely but maybe look at what lies underneath your urge to take care of someone who is incapable of seeing the remarkable man you are and valuing you for who you are.  

I am/was a rescuer for my family and anyone really.  Would put myself on the line for everyone but me.  I kept putting myself in the same situations and was always left wondering why I came out the bad guy or was the one who was hurt.  What has helped me tho is to realize in my case at least that my need to rescue stemmed from a need for control (because I wanted to prevent the chaos I was all to used to) and a certain degree of arrogance.  I thought I was more capable, that I knew what was best for the other person, that I could somehow fix them because they are incapable or damaged or mentally ill.  It took a while, but I saw the arrogance in my beliefs and had to let go.  It is hard.  A lifetime of conditioned responses are hard to overcome and even with my parents dead, I still try to rescue them by minimizing, denying, etc.  I am still enmeshed in my head.  NC gives space and time but not much else.

Sorry for the diversion into Harriville.

I am not suggesting not to call, or even to call your mother Turkish.  The others are right that there is some time to make a decision.  I think it is important to understand what is driving your urge to call *and* the conflicting feeling of not wanting to call.

What are your feeeelings?  

[Notwendy]

Harri- you make some really good points about dealing with our part in this- our roles and conditioned responses.

I too tried to be the fixer. I guess I felt it gave me some sort of legitimacy in my FOO. I was otherwise the black child. But by about 12 I was taller than my mother, physically stronger and able to do household tasks well. It is almost as if I became her parent in ways, even though her wishes dominated my FOO.

I agree with protecting the kids. My kids come first for me. They are older than Turkish's kids. They fully understand my mother's condition and she is no danger to them.

You are also correct that NC may give us space but we still deal with our part in this. My fathers death didn't change my feelings about our relationship. It was however the end of hope for me for our relationship to be different. Even false hope was still hope. Maybe that's a reason I still have contact with my mother- to keep that door open for possibility no matter how remote.

[Harri]

Hi Notwendy and thanks.  Glad it makes sense.  It is hard to find the words sometimes as I am still trying to figure things out for myself.

Our roles... .I had a hard time with that.  I took too much responsibility for the abusive dynamic, not realizing that my behaviors were conditioned over decades.  Even my choices were conditioned.  They seemed voluntary on the surface but again, decades of conditioning definitely impacted the choices I made/make as an adult.  Separating all that out is hard.  I am still trying to figure out what is me and what is conditioned to the point where it is a reflex.

I stayed in contact while my parents were alive.  At the time I thought it was so I could learn to detach while I had the opportunity to do so in real time.  That was important to me and I did detach quite a bit.  I had no idea just how enmeshed I still am until I got back to therapy recently.  Rude awakening.

Thanks for sharing Notwendy.

[Turkish]

So using my own sig against me?  Pffft!

You're right though.  My mother isn't FOGing me,  it's the OG in my mind.  I feeeel, like it is when you don't call someone. The longer it goes,  the worse it will be. 

Truthfully,  when I backed out of her dirt road as she walked back to her house with no electricity and no running water,  I thought,  "this will be the last time I'll see her. " This was after she hugged me and thanked me for bringing her back, cinematic commenting upon how beautiful the property was (it is, sans house), then saying,  "but I know you hate it." No. I only lived there about 8 months before moving out in 1989.

It really sucks that she won't see her grandchildren grow up.  She still clung to the fantasy of adopting a Chinese or African orphan.  Yeah, right.  She's been saying this for the past decade.  I cherish the times when she interacted well with the kids,  not so much when she wanted me to be "hard" on S6 when he was crying all of a mile home when I didn't get him ice cream.  She left the house to walk in the rain for two hours.  What was I supposed to do,  slap him around?  He's on the border of the ASD spectrum. She got lucky with little Turkish,  quiet, no tantrums, lost in my own world, an "old soul" even as a little kid.  People used to comment on it. 

So I'll do nothing. I'll take the call if I get it.  I'll rescue,  but not like last winter,  where my instinct was to tell her physician to call adult protective services.  I'm sure I've been replaced.  Again.  This time perhaps permanently. If I get a reputation in that part of the county for being the abandoning son so be it. I'm not moving back there even though it's quite beautiful.  I've got enough on my plate with the kids,  job, and my ex who started criticizing when she picked up the kids.  At least I stood up for myself with her,  "Mommy needs to leave before she pisses Daddy off," she apologized and left. I guess that's a gift,  finally learning to stand up for myself in middle age. 

[Notwendy]

Turkish- I'm pretty sure people in my mother's circle think her children are just horrible for not being there for her more often, and my mother has reminded me that people thought the same thing when my father was sick. I did stay in contact with him, but it was hard to be there frequently because of the dynamics.

To outsiders, nobody would have a clue that our family life wasn't "normal". My mother is quite charming in public and treats her friends and FOO well.

Soon after my father passed away, I was "replaced". My mother embraced a new family to the area- a woman my age and became a mother figure to her. The two of them are quite close. I don't really blame her. I think she wants this kind of relationship but decades of our interactions would be hard to repair. With this person, there isn't the baggage. In a way, I am happy for her that she can have connections with people like that.

[Harri]

There are so many times of big betrayal in your story Turkish.  As a little boy and as a man. I  think it is past time to start giving to yourself the same way you give to others.  That includes giving yourself permission to feel whatever you feel without judgement.  Feelings and thoughts just are.

From your first post in this thread (I missed it!):

I certainly feel poor in spirt quite a bit, but I also feel guilty for feeling that way.

  What does this mean?  I don't want to make assumptions, or not any more than I already have!

In terms of caretaking, deciding on NC or LC, to call or not to call, etc we can choose what action to take regardless of our feelings.  It took me a long time to figure out that just because I love someone or care about them it does not mean I have to act on those feelings.  I no more need to act on my love or any of the 'softer feelings' than I do my anger and hurt.  In other words, I don't need to keep running into fires that others are choosing to be in just because I have feelings that tell me they will be hurt or damaged or because I think I know better or can fix them.  Reminding myself of that is helping me to break the conditioned behaviors I have and to figure out my internal boundaries (ie where I end in relation to others).

Okay, just rambling there.  I have no idea if that applies to you and what is going on in your head and heart or not.  Just figured I would share. 

It must be bittersweet to remember the good times with your mother and the kids.  Unfortunately for us 'kids of pwBPD" I think there will always be a degree of sadness and loss.  Acknowledgement and acceptance.  It sucks and I sure wish it could be different, but it can't be, at least not for me.  Acknowledgement and acceptance... .dammit!   

I'm thinking about what you said (and Notwendy) about being disowned by your mothers.  One of the greatest gifts I have ever received was when I was watching my mom die in the hospital and realized something that evokes both sadness and peace.  After years of thinking there was something wrong with me and that I was incapable of loving someone I realized that I am more than capable of acting in loving ways.  It was my mother's behaviors (and to be honest, her character) that made it impossible for me to share that part of me with her.

I definitely agree that your mom got lucky with little Turkish and not because you were quiet and well behaved but because *who you are*.  Again, I think it is sad that she can't see you beyond her own biases and filters and mental illness.   

I am glad you have made a decision about calling, or not calling, and seem at peace with it.

Oh, and congrats on sticking up for yourself with your ex!  Turkish maaaad!  Or: Get. Out.  LOL  I don't think I would even let her in the house.   

[Turkish]

I should have gone The Terminator on my ex?  Lol.  A little drama today.  I'll save that for Detaching.

When I took cultural anthropology in college,  we read a book by a professor at Columbia who was a paraplegic... .or maybe a quad, I don't remember.  Something he wrote struck a chord with me,  that he never cried,  which was odd because he was very honest with his emotions in his prose. I told my mom that I thought it was cool and she said that something was wrong with him.  I was,  of course, telling my mother already knowing what she was going to say. 

At the time,  at 18 (I turned 19 in the middle of the semester), I a years past crying.  For anything.  I don't know where I got being "old school. " I think it's ok for strong women to cry, but not strong men. I can totally see Harriet Tubman doing so,  though I don't know if she did) but not a Booker T. Washington or Teddy Roosevelt.  It's probably why more men kill themselves (no need to RTM, I'm not telegraphing SI, just commenting).

[Turkish]

So I did feel like crying today,  out of frustration and anger.  I was trying to wrap stuff up at work when I got a call from a [Mountain County] sheriff's deputy.  My mother called the cops. 

I don't think it was specifically on me,  but it kind of was.  The same accusations: I stole her purse,  money,  truck,  and cut the water pipes to her house.  I was so angry, but I've been expecting a call from the authorities at some point. 

He asked if there was some mental illness going on,  or dementia.  I said that she had passed a dementia test,  so I was told,  but that she had a long history of mental illness.  He asked what,  to get an idea of what he was dealing with.  I said depression, PTSD  (I told him she shared that she had been treated for this back in the 70s) and Borderline Personality Disorder,  which I added was a significant thing.  I didn't elaborate.  He asked how long she'd been hoarding.  I said for almost her whole life.  I told him that if he went into her house,  she'd been living like that for 20 years,  though of course the home structure is in way worse shape.  I said,  "it needs to be burned down,... legally of course.  I knew I was talking to a cop. He also asked if I had any legal authority over her and I said no, that I was trying to help her,  but that she accused me of controlling her, stealing and trying to take her money. 

I told him I had last talked to my mom on mother's day and she seemed ok.  I gave him a brief rundown of the year,  as well as also saying that she left her purse,  she being picked up by the cops here,  the accusations that I was stealing her money.  I said that she had $4500 in her account when I took her back because I never asked her for money.  He had asked if she had an income.  I said that I had her purse because she left it.  I told him that I mailed her billfold and expired ID back to her the next week.  I said that if APS entered her home,  that she'd be kicked out.  He asked what was APS. Adult Protective Services.  He got my address and birthdate for his report. 

I drove to pick up my kids.  He called me back.  I told a lot of the same story because he was trying to understand. I said that she had a history going back to the '80s. I said that we lived not as badly,  but bad enough in 1983, that if CPS had caught up to us months earlier than they did,  she'd have gone to jail  (my T agreed with this,  not even hearing half the details of that time in my life). I talked about the money again,  and he said he didn't suspect financial abuse, but that he was just trying to get a time-line. He said that my mom was hesitant for him to call me.  I replied that she probably was because I know everything.  I also told him about the threats I heard from her former neighbor about saying CPS wouldn't like my two kids (then 2 and 4) sleeping in the same room.  I said that threats like that cross the line in my mind. 

Given that and the accusations she made about me to me,  but also to my neighbors in the city,  that I didn't feel safe around her.  He asked who she made the accusations to.  I said everybody.  I also said they there were people in the county, credible people rather than back woods types, who could confirm the past if there were a detailed investigation.  Again,  he said he believed me.  He said that he wanted to keep an eye on her and I said that was a good thing.  His opinion was that the rest of the roof would collapse come snow season.  I agreed. I also corrected her story about me cutting her water pipes,  that 6 years ago, her plumbing was shot,  majorly leaking,  and that I and my buddy crawled under her house,  cut off the house lines,  and ran a line directly from the city line to an outside faucet.  I told him about giving jet $5000 in 1999 to save her mortgage,  the unpaid back taxes which I helped with,  other people giving her money.  I also said that he probably saw the plywood and materials rotting in the side yard.  That was $2k worth of materials I bought her because she told me she had someone ready to do the roof.  That never happened.  I also told him that I gave her my truck. 

Maybe I was JADEing. He again said that he believed me and he didn't suspect financial abuse.  He said that he had contacted APS, so the state agency will step in.  So it's over for her.  Her stubborn pride in combination with multiple mental illnesses have brought her to this place.  A tiny part of me feels like I failed,  but given the experiences of last year dealing with her as a man in his mid 40s as opposed to a latchkey teenager who worked from 14 and stayed away from home (camper, then sleeping on the cabin couch) as much as possible in order not to be screamed at,  smacked around,  kicked (child abuse under California law,  when though smacking is ok), stuff thrown at me,  and other wacky and fun stuff including being temporarily homeless on the streets of Houston. ... uhg. Run-on sentence. 

I think I did what I could.  I'm dreading the next call,  but also glad that APS is involved.  She wouldn't survive the winter,  whether she survives mentally losing everything (which she will) is out of my power. 

[Fie]

Hello Turkish

This must be so frustrating. Don't blame yourself for anything, you did everything you could, and more.
Do you think it might be time to finally step back ?

I agree with what you said about the JADE. Sounds like you have explained yourself more than necessary. That is maybe because you are feeling guilty (misplaced guilt, but guilt), I completely understand that.
Sometimes however, even with normal people (the policeman) the more we explain and give details, the more the story doesn't sound credible anymore (because people wonder why we are explaining ourselves so much - do we have something to hide ?). This being said, I got that the police believed you.

But maybe you want to limit yourself to less explanation if (if) they call you a next time. This will also burden you less, give you less stress. The police now has a fair idea of your mum's situation, no need to elaborate further. This is about her life. Maybe she can do the explanation to police / APS, in stead of you.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Turkish:   

. . .I got a call from a [Mountain County] sheriff's deputy.  My mother called the cops. . . .

I think I did what I could.  I'm dreading the next call,  but also glad that APS is involved.  She wouldn't survive the winter,  whether she survives mentally losing everything (which she will) is out of my power.

Sorry about the situation with your mom.  Thoughts and prayers your way for the best outcome for both you and your mom.

She made her own choice.  Do you think she lacked the capacity to think through the repercussions of her decision to call the sheriff, or do you think she is giving up and wants help? 

Might she qualify for some public assistance for housing and medical?  There are lots of mentally ill people living on the streets of California.  Do you think your mom might end up with a better result with APS involved?  I guess she could still run away from their support at some point.

[Turkish]

It's a small county, about 38,000 people. ":)owncountry" is more gentrified. Upcountry is more forest and back woods people. There are homeless who live in the woods, refugees from the city who eek out existences in the underground cash economy. There aren't homeless people on the streets of the two main towns though, each around 2000 population.

I don't know about her properties. I suppose they'd liquidate them first. There is discount housing, but I think unsupervised, my mom wouldn't make it in one of those apartments. Her persecution complex is one main thing she'd be dealing with.

Like a lot of pwBPD, she tries to control everything, making one poor decision after another, but at her core, wants to be wanted. It's how she's hooked up with so many people and families over the years, but eventually personality conflicts destroy those relationships. All but a few were unhealthy people themselves. It's sad really. The therapy she got didn't fix anything. If someone goes through seven therapists before one finds someone comfortable, the underlying pathology that drives the unhealthy behaviors is too strong.

[Harri]

How are you feeling now Turkish?  Any new developments?

Your mother is now dealing with the consequences of a lifetime of poor decisions and essentially untreated mental illness.  Those are not things that are under your control nor are they your responsibilty to fix.  Aside from that, you are not qualified to do so and never were. 

I think I did what I could.

You did that and more and then tried to do even more Turkish.  When a person refuses help, can't see they have issues and in turn threatens you and yours and tries to pull you back into their world of dysfunction, there is not much that can be done.  You did the right thing in taking her back. 

I know you know all this.  I'm just reminding you.   

She is, or will be, in the care of people who are qualified and able to help her if she lets them. 

You and your mom are in my prayers.  Please keep posting.  All of this is too big to keep to yourself.

[Turkish]

I finally got the call from a social worker Adult Protective Services. It's funny, but she sounded thankful that I called her back so quickly. I imagine that a lot of children of the elderly are in hiding or don't want to deal with things.

The Social Worker (SW) said that she had stopped by my mother's house four times looking for her. I said that I didn't know where she was. There is a main highway artery that runs through the entire county. My mom's bank is in full view of the highway and the SW said that they had seen her severl times a day driving by. I told the SW that she knew they were onto her so she was hiding. I said that she's always done this, including back in the mid 80s when various county agencies were searching for her. I didn't go into the details.

The SW said that she had seen the property and asked about the hoarding. She asked if there was ever a horse on the property. I said "no, never." The SW asked if she hoarded animals and again insisted there was a horse. I said that she used to hoard animals back in the '80s (on another property, the 25 acres with riverfront that she lost for all of a $15K note), but not for a long time and that there was never a horse. The SW said that she thought so because she saw several barrels (like to keep feed) on the hill. I said that my mom was into doomsday prepping and that was likely what those were for. The SW said, "of course that makes sense to her, it's logical in her mind." This told me that the SW likely knew something of the Hoarding mentality. I also pointed to the roofing materials in the side yard. We talked and the SW said that again that tracked, always starting something, yet never finishing it, only gathering stuff more and more over the years.

I went over some of the accusations my mother made against me, including me stealing her money. I went through her living here and me fully supporting her for almost 4 months, with my mom only buying this and that at Wal-mart or the dollar store. The SW said, "oh, no, the bank insists emphatically that that didn't happen, and we heard those accusations." So they did investigate me. I also said that my mom accused my 4 and 6 year old from stealing from her, and SW said that she heard that, too, and added, "of course we know that that's ridiculous." This is totally illogical for me to feel this way, but thinking about my mother spreading lies about her own grandchildren, whom she previously adored and was all about showing their photos around the county and gushing how great they were, well, it pisses me off. Say what you like about me, I don't care, but little kids? I mean little.

The SW said she was worried about the winter coming on, I said yes, which is only why I took her back in the spring after it wasn't cold. The SW confirmed that I didn't do anything wrong. I said that was a relief, because I kept feeling like the cops were going to show up at my door and extradite me back to the county. "No, nothing like that!"

She asked about conservatorship. I said that if I were just a single guy, I might consider it, but given my own issues with two little kids and the distance, I didn't feel safe. Given my mom's view of me now, I didn't think it would work. So we kind of danced around the subject (the SW sounded like she really did care), but it's going to likely end up that the state will take conservatorship of her being. Which means she'll be locked up somewhere, because I know my mom will never stay anywhere without causing conflict, even if she charms and makes friends at first. It always ends badly. Always. This is what I said when the SW asked if she had any friends I knew of. I said no, they all fall away due to conflict and I really didn't know anyone.

SW said that she wanted to meet my mom and try and build a rapport with her. I said that she could try, but when my mom feels threatened, she feels persecuted and treats anyone who tries to help her thusly. I said that my mom was a nice lady, that part of her was that, but that she could also be someone else very different. I said that she was still my mom, and that I would help out with anything I could later, but that I didn't want any legal responsibility over her whatsoever. The little SW explained, it would be a long process between me, my mom and the state. Who knows what would happen by that point at the end?

SW again thanked me for calling her back. I said to call any time, I was more than willing to talk. We did touch upon mental illness at the beginning of the conversation, but I didn't go too deelply into it, only saying that my mom's declining physical health made it harder to hide everything else, when being younger she could get away with it. SW agreed. I'm almost thinking to mention BPD and validation, but I think I'll just let it play out 120 miles away. They'll keep me informed.

I was thinking about my mom's core emotional need, and it's always been this, since having been orphaned at 12 and 14, she wants to feel wanted (or needed). It explains the nursing. It explains she adopting handicapped and bi-racial little Turkish (when it was controversial in the early '70s). It explains forming interdependent relationships with low-functioning people, even opening up her home to several of them over the years, but it always sours at some point. She also needs to be in control, and then flees rather than dealing with things that aren't that difficult to deal with given a little planning. Then again, her depression must hit very hard to make her so low-functioning  in the troughs of her life.

[isilme]

I am NC because I had to realize that what my mother wants is essentially for me to give up any and all of my own life and adult independence, and go back to my parentified childhood role of her caretaker.

I can't do that.  She will never stop inventing crises and excuse and trying to guilt me into it.  She got arrested, fired, and evicted at the same time last time I stepped in to help her.  H's family was great, and helped me as much as they could.  I can't ask that of them.  I can't handle it myself.  If she pours gasoline on herself and lights a match, I cannot feel responsible for running to her with an extinguisher to put out the flames she set herself partially just to draw me back into my "rightful place". 

She's a leech.  She finds people, is pathetic till they help her and support her, then if they catch on, get tired, or can't do for her what she CAN do for herself, they get painted black, and she becomes a victim for a new "mark". 

I am NC to protect me.  To protect H and his parents.  She did weird things with theft by check that had people calling H's mom, his sister and her husband, all to collect on my mother's debts.  It was so embarrassing.  She shoplifts, steals appliances (yes, there was a huge issue with a washer/dryer), uses my dad's SSN to get stuff (been divorced since 1992, claims she lives in terror of him, that he drives over 18 hours to stalk, rape, and terrorize her - of her stories, I can believe he may WANT to do this, he's BPD himself).  But she'll use his SSN to get a new cell phone each month (didn't pay the previous bill).

I have been told but her current support structures I am a terrible daughter for not taking care of her.  For not leaving my current state and moving in with her up north.  For not giving her all my money.  And then, I've heard from those who wised up and learned she is only a victim because it suits her, who have seen the nasty side, and been painted black. 

Who is responsible for NC?  That's pretty complicated.  You choose NC, but only as a strict boundary.  You'd not need the boundary if your mother was, well, better at being a mother and a person.  If you have a lover who beat you and you chose to leave, leaving is your choice, but only because of being beat.  Ultimately, I guess you can think of it as you are only responsible for your own choices and actions.  So if you choose NC, that's your decision, but the underlying reasons you chose it are based on how you have been treated by your mother and out of concern to protect your current family. 

[Turkish]

My buddy told me something tonight.  His dad,  who lives in the same county as my mom,  recently ran into her.  She had no idea who he was,  and he said that he thought that she "was not of sound mind." We've all known each other since 1989.

Ten years ago,  I enlisted his dad to be the point man on a posse to go kick out a gypsy like family that had taken over my mom's life.  This was then the 28 year old woman with 4 kids whom my mom said she was going to adopt.  She had her daughter and grandchildren I hadn't gifted her yet.  The older man who was the woman's boyfriend dropped dead of a heart attack on her dirt road.  The plan for them wad to get married,  and my mom said she was "going to have a place of honor" in the front row as Mom. No,  I didn't feel invalidated in the least. I was in my mid 30s, and had yet to gift my mom grandchildren.  Their relationship went to hell shortly after the father-husband figure died, then she called me for a rescue because she had no one else to turn to. 

That "daughter" was one in a long line.  At least one came after,  but with less drama.  Funny that none of them showed up to help with my mother's breast cancer surgery. At least the later one showed up two years later to visit my mom in the hospital for her hysterectomy.