Avoiding the "hook" of an argument

[formflier]

Since  the "wallet caper" (really need a better name for it), things have been calm.  Been wondering when "it" would show back up.

I suspect it is tonight.  Wife went to early vote but intercepted D6 at bus and took her with.  I was concerned when D6 didn't make it to the house and texted if wife had her.

Few minutes later wife said yes... .that she was going to vote.

What actually seems to have happened is wife and D6 and D3 have spent several hours with my wife's parents.

So... they skipped the dinner I had ready and then I think my wife left D3 and D6 at her parents for childcare while my wife went to her Monday evening Bible study.

I made the mistake (my assumption) of saying how much I enjoyed spending Monday nights with the girls.

Sigh... just got off phone with her... .she's trying to hook me into an argument... using a funny mocking voice... .rambling... .being evasive.

This is a tiring life...

FF

[formflier]

 
Me: Do u have d6? 2:52 PM


wife: Yes... .going to vote 2:56 PM


Me: K 2:56 PM


Me: we r low on rice... .fed kids rice today 2:58 PM\


Me: can u stop by advance auto on the way home? the one across from (gives location) 3:35 PM


Me: How did voting go? Eta? 4:16 PM


Me: 3 bottles of transmission fluid and 2 spray cans of seafoam 4:43 PM


Me: it's already paid for... go in and give them our last name 4:44 PM


Me: I appreciate you picking it up for me. The part for d19 truck is being shipped 4:44 PM


wife: Your order is in the plow truck 5:56 PM


Me: Cool... .thank you 6:03 PM


Me: When r u guys going to be home 6:03 PM


Me: I was hoping to run to park with girls before it gets too dark... .I'm a bit lost about the schedule tonight 6:05 PM


wife: Me too... .been busy since work... .6:29 PM


Me: Can u talk? 6:29 PM


wife: Making costumes for Wed night... .only chance I have to get what I need and make them is after work 6:29 PM
(voice conversation here... .she was talking in weird voice, blamed me for not asking proper questions to figure out her schedule, she rambled for 5 minutes after I asked her how the schedule change got decided)
Me: please let me know when you can address my question directly... I'll be happy to talk then 6:39 PM


wife: I am sorry you felt it was ok to hang up on me when I was answering your question. 6:40 PM


Me: I had plans and expectations for this evening... .it is likely I would be ok with changes. I would hope in the future you could demonstrate respect and common courtesy by talking to me ahead of time about stuff like this 6:43 PM

(I stopped responding and went for walk at this point)

wife: When we talked on the phone while I was picking up your order it seemed obvious you knew I was safe and it was already much past dinnertime... .I assumed if you wanted to know what I was doing you would have asked then... .I knew you were busy giving direction over the phone to d19 how to change her tire so it wasnt a good time to talk... .I am so sorry you didn't feel respected... .I certainly didn't mean to not speak to you about my plans tonight... .please forgive me. 6:44 PM


wife: I hope as well you can demonstrate respect and common courtesy and not interrupt or hang up on me while ai am trying my best to answer your questions. 6:46 PM


wife: Ha! Funny you mentioned I was speaking in a strange voice... .it was my calm voice... .praise the Lord I am growing!

[formflier]

So... .this has ticked me off.  I need to be careful not to "engage" on this.

What do you guys see in the texts?

(via voice conversation)
Apparently wife felt necessary to let her Bible study group know she wouldn't be there tonight... .but she didn't let me know.  She blamed me for not knowing, since I had put the costume event on the calendar.

I should have known she would have to cancel things to get this done.

All said in a weird voice... .

Sigh.

FF

[teapay]

It may not seem this way to you, but you are badgering her quite abit over a several hour stretch.  Your communications just keep coming and coming and give a hounding feeling.  I used to cringe when my W would to this kind of thing and simply shut off the phone.  Of course she would get mad and feel disrespected or disregarded.

[formflier]

  
Me: How did voting go? Eta? 4:16 PM


Me: 3 bottles of transmission fluid and 2 spray cans of seafoam 4:43 PM


Me: it's already paid for... go in and give them our last name 4:44 PM


Me: I appreciate you picking it up for me. The part for d19 truck is being shipped 4:44 PM

 

She called me before this and we spoke some about the order.  Not sure if that matters or "colors" how this seems.

Big picture stuff:  We have much less text communication now than we used to. Relatively speaking... .it's been a big improvement.

FF

[ArleighBurke]

This doesn't seem like good conversation... .

It feels like you are asking her for lots of info, without providing any yourself.

Me: we r low on rice... .fed kids rice today 2:58 PM

And? are you asking her something?

Me: can u stop by advance auto on the way home? the one across from (gives location) 3:35 PM

You say in your post that you had already talked about the order... .So then why send:

Me: 3 bottles of transmission fluid and 2 spray cans of seafoam 4:43 PM

Then:

Me: How did voting go? Eta? 4:16 PM

Are you trying to engage her in conversation? If so a phone call would be better. It kinda feels like you are bored, and want to have her talk to you. Or you are worried/concerned about what she is doing... .Either is not good.

Me: I was hoping to run to park with girls before it gets too dark... .I'm a bit lost about the schedule tonight 6:05 PM

Me: I had plans and expectations for this evening... .

Did you have plans? Were they agreed to? "I was hoping to... ." doesn't sound like an agreed plan... .

wife: When we talked on the phone while I was picking up your order it seemed obvious you knew I was safe and it was already much past dinnertime... .I assumed if you wanted to know what I was doing you would have asked then... .I knew you were busy giving direction over the phone to d19 how to change her tire so it wasnt a good time to talk... .I am so sorry you didn't feel respected... .I certainly didn't mean to not speak to you about my plans tonight... .please forgive me. 6:44 PM

This sounds quite respectful of her - like she is trying to be nice... .

So overall, I find the dynamic in this conversation strange. Now I DO understand that I wan't there and this post may not accurately reflect everything. But the biggest thing that stands out to me is it feels you are controlling her.

[formflier]

I was expecting them for dinner, which I prepare on Monday nights (her idea).  It's been this way for months. 

Perhaps there have been a time or two when something was altered, but there was communication ahead of time.  She normally leaves the after dinner and is gone for a couple of hours with a ladies Bible study and accountability group. 

It's one of my favorite nights of the week because I get to be an "unfiltered Dad".  We can run to the park (couple minutes away)... .chase butterflies... .whatever.

She made it clear to me that "everyone" else knew about her change in plans... .and blamed me for not knowing... .even though she acknowledges that she didn't tell me... .She monologed for a good 5 minutes explaining how I should have known.  That's the part where I cut the conversation "I hung up on her".  I had made several attempts to steer the conversation back to something productive.



(fluids)
She had called from inside the store... .they claimed they didn't have the order.  I was letting her know what was supposed to be picked up.

(rice)
Couple kids have been home sick.  Letting her know we are out... .but not directing her to get any.  If she gets a chance... .she can grab some.

(forgiveness)

100% of our counselors over the past 6 years (religious and non-religious) have advised us to NOT ask forgiveness or apologize via text or email.  There was one that said a heartfelt handwritten letter would perhaps be ok, but in person is better.


I get it context is tough for these... .

There were a couple phone calls in there that went unanswered.

If I didn't get all questions answered... .please follow up.

I avoided the hook when she got home last night.  I was pleasant to her.  She seemed abrupt.  Same this morning.

FF

[jrharvey]

It may not seem this way to you, but you are badgering her quite abit over a several hour stretch.  Your communications just keep coming and coming and give a hounding feeling.  I used to cringe when my W would to this kind of thing and simply shut off the phone.  Of course she would get mad and feel disrespected or disregarded.

I agree with this. Its kind of a lot to throw at her at once. She may have been frustrated. I probably would have too.

[Sunfl0wer]

My thought... .

What do you think would have happened if you spoke of the location of the kids more directly?

Such as:
Oh, good, D6 is safe.  I was concerned when she did not arrive home as usual/expected.  She usually arrives by ... .0:00 time.  Why did you take her to grandparents? 

Or, other simple direct statement such as... .can you please have her back by dinner I planned?

Did doing daily meetings of what people are to do get tossed away?

[formflier]

Yes... .daily meetings are tossed.  I offer them from time to time... .and have made clear that I am ready to re commence meetings.

She is "to busy"... " too tired"... .etc etc.

It has been replace by quick exchanges... .

Such as "anything different about today?"

I was aware that she wanted to vote "sometime this week"

That made sense when she texted that... .wasn't aware of any other plans... .or changes in the default

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Sorry seems like with the paranoia, she is by default, inclined to "run her own agenda" in her mind, to protect herself/the kids.  (Sounded like she got paranoid about you appreciating time with kids)

Only thing different tho is that a couple of months ago, her "agenda" and motivation seemed to be to be "seen by Biblical marriage counselor as less flawed one."  This agenda did serve the whole of the family to a degree... .it seemed to help contain (or hide/suppress or such) her natural tendencies of paranoia as she was focused on being accountable to marriage counselor, and looking good primarily.

Makes me think that the stability of the dynamics is tied to how much her current agenda is self serving vs encompasses the family and you as a partner.  Makes me wonder if the solution is just in waiting for a new more compatible agenda for her to pick up.

It would be nice if she could latch onto a new agenda that is more or equally beneficial to all as the bible counselor was.  Not sure if you see opportunity to steer something, or such exists.

That or her having a big falling out or major family crisis to which she would need to cling towards you for identity.

Idk, maybe my talk sounds like some conspiracy theory.
Just rambling.

She needs to be "the good one," I wish there was a way for her to get this met in the least damaging way.

[formflier]

Heading to appointment with P.  Will see if there is time to discuss letting her "be the good one". 

I do agree that is huge thread with her.


FF

[teapay]

There seems to be a lot of needless communication over things of minor importance.  Everything after the “ME: K” seems not needed, or at least not of much value for you to have a pleasant evening with your kids who were home.  I don't bother with that kind of minutia with my wife.  She would think it is controlling, condescending or take it negative in someway.

Each additional commo increases the probably of a poor interaction, particularly since it seems like your wife is tired, busy and distracted in the exchange.  If your boundary is to engage her and then disengage at any perceived disrespect, it will also increase the probably is a poor interaction.  Disengagement entails implicit judgment.  It might be worth it, but its is something to bear in mind if you care much of the quality of the interactions.  It may be a value tradeoff.

Have you considered decreasing the amount of communication and traffic of this sort?  Also, you have considered putting more separation between you two in the r/s.  Being ill, I can understand how she might have a hard time staying out of your business and the need for boundaries.   At the same time, you seem to be a lot in her business and spend a lot of time trying to control uncertainty though defaults and prior agreements.   I mean, beyond just concern of getting screwed over in some way which are legit, but into matters of convenience and rigidity.

[formflier]

Big picture for me is that I need to understand that my wife "can't be wrong".  From the FOO she comes from... that is a bunch of doom falling on her head.

I need to focus on communicating that I care and that I need to know "right now" what is going on with the schedule. 

Once the ship has sailed and evening screwed up... .  the ship has sailed. 

More to process from the meeting with the P.


second thought:  with all our kids and things going on... .there is a price to pay for less coordination.

That price will likely shift and I need to be ok with that and aware of when I need to back off.

More later.

FF

[KateCat]

second thought:  with all our kids and things going on... .there is a price to pay for less coordination.

That price will likely shift and I need to be ok with that and aware of when I need to back off.

I think this is a profound realization, and, though it will be frustrating to move toward acting consistently on this understanding, it will be powerful if you continue work at it.

[formflier]

Hey KateCat... .yes I continue to try to understand the tradeoffs and "costs" of one path over the other.


For Sunflower:  :)iscussed the idea of her being the good one today with P.  In depth.

P believes that I need to approach it from a different angle.  Instead of being "the good one"... .think of it as my wife will do or say just about anything to avoid being "wrong".

So... .wife claims I should have known she wouldn't have been there... .my attempts to "prove" that I couldn't know unless I am told are seen as attempt to make her "wrong".

In her FOO there is a heavy price for being wrong.  It is avoided at all costs.  That standard for being wrong changes quite a bit based on whims of her mother.  So there is lots of arguing and effort to avoid being wrong.

Big RA moment.  This is who my wife is.  P said I need to put this part of my wife in "bubblewrap" and protect it fiercely.  

We did a bunch of practice (roll play) to show how I can sort of go after same goal... .and avoid putting my wife in the "wrong" box.

I believe the concept.  It's going to take some practice.

FF

[HopefulDad]

P believes that I need to approach it from a different angle.  Instead of being "the good one"... .think of it as my wife will do or say just about anything to avoid being "wrong".

So... .wife claims I should have known she wouldn't have been there... .my attempts to "prove" that I couldn't know unless I am told are seen as attempt to make her "wrong".

In her FOO there is a heavy price for being wrong.  It is avoided at all costs.  That standard for being wrong changes quite a bit based on whims of her mother.  So there is lots of arguing and effort to avoid being wrong.

Big RA moment.  This is who my wife is.  P said I need to put this part of my wife in "bubblewrap" and protect it fiercely.  

We did a bunch of practice (roll play) to show how I can sort of go after same goal... .and avoid putting my wife in the "wrong" box.

I believe the concept.  It's going to take some practice.

I have this issue with my ex and since we co-parent, it behooves me to apply this concept to minimize my headaches with her even in divorce.  But honestly, I encounter plenty of people in my life who don't handle well being called out as wrong (particularly professionally), so having skills to work with this concept is good for relationships in general.

What works for me is avoiding a post-mortem with the other party on what went wrong and instead focus on how best to make things better the next time this circumstance could arise.  It doesn't even need to be phrased as problem solving as that could indicate that somebody did something wrong, causing a problem.  Instead, it can be phrased as personal requests like, "I really appreciate when you call if you're going to be late.  Helps with my planning."

And when you make your requests, definitely leave out "I would hope in the future you could demonstrate respect and common courtesy by talking to me... .".  That's just asking for a fight and you know it.

[Sunfl0wer]

So... .wife claims I should have known she wouldn't have been there... .my attempts to "prove" that I couldn't know unless I am told are seen as attempt to make her "wrong".

I had to reread this to grasp the significance of this.
Yes, makes perfect sense now that it clicked for me.
Also sounds like very practical doable advice from P.
So glad you have P.

... .

I guess I always still wonder if there is stuff to get someone like her, to side with you... .I see the issue also one of her seeming to have thoughts of needing to protect herself and kids from you at times.  I guess this is where one would say have RA?

My sis intermittently paints her kids black, then white.  It depends on the relationship with her spouse.  When he and her fight, she needs someone to rely on, then she clings to one of them for a sense of self, hence they get painted white to fulfill her own attachment needs.

I guess I always wish there was a way to sway that motivation.
I wish there was a way to force motivate her to cling to you.

Excuse my ramblings please.
I suppose the moral of my ponderings is that the area of influencing ones object of attachment desire requires RA, not influencing.  *sigh*

[empath]

As my husband described, being wrong is 'being' wrong; it's a state of being like being bad. He can't 'be' wrong -- which by default means he has to be right. Admitting fault is really difficult for him and often he can't see it on his own (because he's not wrong).

Using 'I' statements and limiting 'you' blame statements has been helpful for me as well, and avoiding giving specific directions for 'next time' or ways to make amends for whatever trespass... .

"Proving" is kind of like justifying.

[formflier]

Need for attachment:  Another observation of my P.  My wife desperately wants to be "close"... ."attached"... .etc etc.  Likely wants that more than anything in the world.  Yet... .that is the thing she "fears" the most.

Imagine that kind of battle going on inside you... .that what you want more than anything... .is also the thing you fear the most.

FF

[MaybeSo]

Hi FF.

This leaves me scratching my head ?

I see two people both contributing to confusing communication and looming tension as though who did what even matters.

Not sure why either one of you are to "blame" or have done anything wrong.  There is such a feel of... .tension, assumption of ill intent... .about who is doing what in the wrong way.  

And nothing life threating has happened, there's just been a unexpected change in end of day plans for a busy family with a lot of kids and moving parts.  

 Somewhere, in an alternate universe,  none of this miscommunication or sudden change in plans would be laden with assumptions of ill intent about who is baiting the hook for a fight, defensiveness, hostility or sparing over who did what or who dropped the ball.  Whose right?  Whose wrong?

WHO CARES?



Alternate Universe where people are chill.


H:  Hey sweetie, Where are you?

W:  I am here with kids, doing this, doing that... .xyz, bla bla bla

H:  Oh, okay, gotcha.  Bummer... .I was looking forward to seeing them this afternoon,  had planned xyz.  No worries, can do it later. I must have misunderstood that you were dropping them off here earlier.  Thank you for the update.  You sound busy.  Can I help?  ... .and Thanks again for picking up the xyz earlier today.

W:  Yea, it's been a hectic day,  I can't even remember what I told you, but I thought I mentioned xyz change in plans? ... .bla bla bla

H:  No worries.  Got an ETA for home?  Should I plan dinner or fend for self cave-man style?

W:  friendly reply bla bla bla

H: cool, see you later, love you.

W: You too.  

END OF STORY

[formflier]

 
The one missing piece here... .that I'm likely going to have to just get used to... .is how many times does she "mess up" the schedule I an end up with "extra" kid time... .versus how many times it messes up and her family gets more and it gets "taken" from me.

Very... .very... .lopsided.  90/10

That's why I care.

One of the measuring sticks I used to measure happiness in my life is time with kids.   Not quality time... .but amount so that I can build a relationship with them, independently of my wife's influence.

Monday night is my favorite night... .because she is not around and it's just me and kids... .for hours.

Very telling in a lot of ways... .

FF

[MaybeSo]

Understood.

You care of course.

Still... .the tension doesn't help the situation at all.   

If I felt tension like I'm reading it here... .it would confirm and exacerbate any anxiety I have about you... .making me want to stay away more and fueling any fears I have (real or imagined) not that you may not be 'safe' in some way to have kids etc. etc.

A relaxed, chill attitude feels much more friendly.  And the opportunity is still there to emphasize your disappointment.  It just doesn't turn it into a fight or a blame of her. 

What could you do take care of yourself instead of focusing on her?   

[ohmygod]

I may not know much but I know that marriage should not be this fulltime job but a a place of rest and support. FF, take care, cause we only live once, no second chance, so let us live our lives in way so that we can die knowing we lived. Cause living the way you describe and the way I had it is not living but surviving.

[boatman]

Hi Formflier-

I'm sorry for what you're going through. From reading your posts it sounds like a very stressful situation with your wife and kids.

As a point of clarification, did you make dinner for your wife and kids? Did she not bring them home to eat it?

In the context of you and her having a plan with the kids for the evening, I don't find your text messages controlling at all. If anything I find her lack of response to you to be manipulative on her part. If I was in your position, I would be just as upset and wondering what I was supposed to if my wife took the plan we had, tossed it aside and then blamed me for not already knowing that she had changed the plan. If it were me, I'd consider her behavior to be bordering on abusive.

Please take care of yourself. 

[formflier]

As a point of clarification, did you make dinner for your wife and kids? Did she not bring them home to eat it?

 

I have 8 kids.  I made dinner and wife and two kids that I was expecting to show up... .did not show.

The other kids and I ate.  Normally on Monday nights I get the older kids settled into doing homework and then I head out with youngest two (ones with my wife) and go to park.  (walking distance from house).

The only thing she let me know was different was that she "wanted to go vote".

I suppose I could have tried to clarify or pin her down at that point, but I expected that I would be caring for the youngest two that evening, like every other Monday night.  I was looking forward to it.

FF

[Circle]

"wife: Me too... .been busy since work... .6:29 PM"

Have only read the original post. I had to say though; it just reminded me of the terrible communication I would get from my x. Wow, they are such masters at intentionally miscommunicating. Hang in there!