Love vs. Infatuation: Did S/He Love Me?

[Depression = 72% of members]

As we struggle to get a grip on what happened to us one of the most frequent questions I see is:

Did s/he ever love me?

I look at my own relationship and what others have reported in their relationship and I am left wondering was it really love that our partners felt or was it infatuation?  

The patterns that many borderlines seem to follow suggests that love is really infatuation.  It is not hard to come to this conclusion when we look at the idealization stage of the relationship.  Everything about that stage screams infatuation ... .the intense passion, love bombing and desire to "consume" each other and be together every moment possible.  But this isn't love and more importantly it is not sustainable.  When the infatuation starts to move towards real true love the problems start to creep in for a borderline.

For my ex I believe most of her "love" was really nothing more than infatuation.  When she said the words "make love" I think it was very literal statement for her.  The sex was needed to generate what she thought were feelings of love but in reality it just fed the infatuation, the fantasy.   She needs the sex to feel any connection at all.  This conclusion is somewhat supported by what happened when the sex became infrequent ... .that being her "love" evaporated into thin air.   It is also supported by her very unloving and uncaring actions/words (at times) outside the bedroom (even when we were a daily thing) and how apparently easy it was for her to replace then throw me away.

I know this is a difficult subject to broach, we all want to believe our exs truly loved us and we loved them.  

Does it help our detachment process to consider that perhaps the "love" was really just infatuation?  I think time together plays an important part here as true love should develop over time, so this should be taken into consideration.

So lets analyze this with some honest reflection about our own feelings and those we believed our partner felt.

[C.Stein]

As we struggle to get a grip on what happened to us one of the most frequent questions I see is:

Did s/he ever love me?

I look at my own relationship and what others have reported in their relationship and I am left wondering was it really love that our partners felt or was it infatuation?  

The patterns that many borderlines seem to follow suggests that love is really infatuation.  It is not hard to come to this conclusion when we look at the idealization stage of the relationship.  Everything about that stage screams infatuation ... .the intense passion, love bombing and desire to "consume" each other and be together every moment possible.  But this isn't love and more importantly it is not sustainable.  When the infatuation starts to move towards real true love the problems start to creep in for a borderline.

For my ex I believe most of her "love" was really nothing more than infatuation.  When she said the words "make love" I think it was very literal statement for her.  The sex was needed to generate what she thought were feelings of love but in reality it just fed the infatuation, the fantasy.   She needs the sex to feel any connection at all.  This conclusion is somewhat supported by what happened when the sex became infrequent ... .that being her "love" evaporated into thin air.   It is also supported by her very unloving and uncaring actions/words (at times) outside the bedroom (even when we were a daily thing) and how apparently easy it was for her to replace then throw me away.

I know this is a difficult subject to broach, we all want to believe our exs truly loved us and we loved them.  

Does it help our detachment process to consider that perhaps the "love" was really just infatuation?  I think time together plays an important part here as true love should develop over time, so this should be taken into consideration.

So lets analyze this with some honest reflection about our own feelings and those we believed our partner felt.

[SoMadSoSad]

By BPD definition they are incapable of loving only infatuation. Love has trust and emotional maturity which they lack.

[SoMadSoSad]

The thing i dont get though is if they cant love and they have no true self and just mirror us, what is the point of the saving, improving, and undecided boards

[drained1996]

Stein,

My exBPD was hyper sexual, and yes, to her sex was love.  I've come to realize that as I can now look back out of the FOG and come to a more lucid comprehension of what my life was at that time.  The emotional incapability of even comprehending "adult" relationships as you know is a hallmark of the illness.  Without that ability to have healthy emotional and intimate connections, they do the best they can to express their version of "love"... .however it was they chose to express themselves... .it was the best way they had.  You and I, as well as a good many others I've noticed, had BPD partners where sex was love.  
For us non's, we should comprehend that sex is an intimate PART and an EXTENSION of love.  BPD's don't carry the emotional development necessary to understand that... .they are children living in an adult body.  

Can I still feel the connection I had with my exBPD just before, during, and after sex.  You're damn right I can, with all of the chemicals the body produced with that arousal I too would get lost in the passion and lust.  But to me, the sex was an EXTENSION of my love for her... .just one of the many ways I was able to express my love.   To her, the sex WAS her love.  In those moments she fully trusted in me, she felt safe, she felt... .her version of love.  I felt idealized, I felt a false sense of connection from her side.  It was outside of our sexually intimate world where the hurricane of a BPD lifestyle would wax and wane.  And just as sure as the sun comes up, drama cycles would happen.  

I guess the above was just some background to go along with my answer to your question/s.

Infatuation by definition is a short lived passion or admiration for someone or something.  My r/s lasted 3+ years so there was nothing short lived in that account.  If indeed what most of us experienced was infatuation why would we be here?  Nothing is short lived about our pain, and the bad feelings we experience... .so thus, was it love from our side?... .I say yes.  
My conclusion from her side... .did she love me... .yes, the best way she knew how. Again, if it was simple infatuation from her side she probably wouldn't have felt too close/attached to me, thus the BPD issues more than likely would not have been triggered to the magnitude we experienced.  BPD's can feel "love", but it's emotionally stunted to whatever degree a child can comprehend and express love.

I'm curious Stein... .where do you feel stuck in your process?  

[fromheeltoheal]

The thing i dont get though is if they cant love and they have no true self and just mirror us, what is the point of the saving, improving, and undecided boards

Borderlines can love, very deeply, in their own way, although the relationship will be intense and unstable, a response to abandonment and engulfment fears.  And some members have been in a relationship with a borderline for a long time and love them, so they focus on developing tools to manage their own emotional state and set and enforce boundaries.  It's a personal decision for all of us.

[C.Stein]

I'm curious Stein... .where are you stuck in your process?  

I'm not stuck on this particular issue although I do think it plays into why I have had such a hard time emotionally disconnecting from her.  Mostly I just thought it would make for an interesting discussion.  

For myself, the beginning of my relationship was very much infatuation.  After the first discard, that wasn't really a discard, my infatuation developed into something much deeper for me ... .true love for lack of a better term.  I agree with you that "making love" isn't really an accurate way to describe what I was seeking and personally experiencing at times.  It was an expression of the love I felt for her, that is once I started to develop true love for her.  For her I don't think she ever got out of the infatuation stage and I do question if she is capable of it, emotionally speaking.  There seems to be a massive disconnect between the bedroom and everything outside of it for her.

[deadboy]

So lets analyze this with some honest reflection about our own feelings and those we believed our partner felt.

In the first 3 months of our relationship, I was convinced my Ex was in love with me. Every kind word and noble act were met with such grand admiration and gratitude from her. It made me feel so loved and ALIVE. Then one day everything changed. My acts of kindness were met with just casual, almost expected appreciation, if at all.

One night I was at her place, I was on edge because something didn't feel right. She went to bed and I went to lockup. I went to her room and she was already in bed, bundled up under the covers, only her face showing. It was like a subtle message telling me to keep away. Her face lacked all emotion. I kneeled beside her, kissed her forehead and said, "I love you". She said nothing back. I asked, "Do you love me?" she replied, "I hope I do".  Ouch!

Many times when I told her "I love you" she'd reply "Love you" in a tone that felt like she was only saying it because she knew I was expecting it. The only time I felt like she was in love with me was during sex. She seemed so passionate and loving during this period. After sex she would snuggle me and kiss me in a way that gave me reassurance that she did really love and care. This affection never carried over into the day. In public, you would never guess we were a couple, just friends hanging out.

It drove me crazy because I knew, to a certainty, she really must love me, right?  I was mistakenly convinced that, if only I could figure out what I was doing wrong, I would be able to restore her to that wonderful woman I saw in the very beginning. I've read that is is common for BPDers to exhibit a warmth of expression and an emotional purity that otherwise is only seen in young children. This makes it easy for people to fall in love with them.

I'm sure my Ex loved me in some respect. I just think her fear of abandonment/rejection kept her from truly enjoying the relationship like a normal person would.

[drained1996]

[There seems to be a massive disconnect between the bedroom and everything outside of it for her.

Do you mind expanding on that thought a little more?

[Curiously1]

This is a question I have asked and questioned many times.
I felt as if all she experienced was intense infatuation and that sex=love until it didn't.
But the good times when she treated me very well I did feel loved.
How can you love someone deeply who you don't really know?
Do you think pwBPD typically know who we are? Who were we in love with and why did we fall in love?
Are their minds too far away from reality to ever know this?  or love? or giv a genuine reason for loving us that fits our definition of mature love?
In the end, does it really matter whether they loved us or not?

@SoMadSoSad I like this line of yours 'Love has trust and emotional maturity and they lack it.'

I remember my ex describing it as just as feeling she could not describe to me and that she shouldn't have to describe love to me. That some things just cannot be explained but are simply unconditional and are felt she would explain to me.

So to her love is just a feeling...  Can we accept it as just that?

[C.Stein]

[There seems to be a massive disconnect between the bedroom and everything outside of it for her.

Do you mind expanding on that thought a little more?

My ex said on several occasions that she gives 100% of herself in a relationship.  There were times, in the bedroom, where I saw this, her giving 100% of herself emotionally.  However she wasn't able to sustain that outside the bedroom.  Why?  Lack of emotional maturity is probably the main reason.  Things that typically plague someone who suffers from BPD or traits of the disorder also rank high on the list.  

Specifically though it was her inability to establish an emotionally intimate bond outside the bedroom, the type of bond that requires open and honest communication and accountability.  Further her willingness to "throw me under the bus" emotionally in order to get/do something she wanted, no matter how petty and superficial, is about as far from love and caring as you can get.  To do this and not even acknowledge the pain/damage she caused just compounds the issue.  This along with some of the thoughtless and sometimes what could be considered cruel things she said just demonstrated how the "love" she claimed to feel for me was mostly based in infatuation.  Love requires genuine care and concern for the well being of the person you love.   Infatuation does not require this.

This is all understandable given her idea of what love and a relationship should be is based on Disney movies (i.e. a fantasy).  Even though she appeared to be able to intuit the difference, emotionally speaking I don't think she really could.  IMO, love requires a certain amount of sacrifice and compromise from each person, but when it came to her feelings there was none to be had.  She did whatever she wanted without regard to the consequences and that is about as far from true love as you can get.

This is where I am partially stuck, in that I felt at the time that she did truly love me.  As HtoH says, she loved me in her own way.  It is just her way in reality is not love at all but infatuation.   Of course I can't forget the times when she told me she didn't even know what love is and the few times when she said she didn't even believe in love.

Is this something I need to believe in order to detach?  I don't think it is, but bringing some objective clarity to behavior in and out of the bedroom and how it relates to what most normal people would consider love helps me to understand and perhaps even accept how she could do the things she did.

[Conundrum]

When the nexus that chains sentiment to cognition, evaluative processing, relational/romantic spatial perception and feeling--operate in a disordered array, it naturally results in a ball of confusion when we relationally collide. Because by design, these relationships are predicated upon thesis and anti-thesis. However, when that collision does not progress towards the functional triad of synthesis, we are left questioning the nature of love--which often feels as if we were run over by the sleekest, sexiest, hot rod on the block--that peeled off and never looked back.

Though love has not changed throughout the ages, while it's surface appearance has taken on many historical shapes. However, a constant of the human condition--is that we both feel and build love with another. In a sustainable relationship the two are inherently wedded.

Infatuation vs. sustainable compassionate/companionate love are abstract terms when applied to a non/pwBPD romantic relationship. Those notions will not operate through space and time in a linear manner. They present themselves in an impressionistic sense and often will feel like dream weaving within a kaleidoscope. Elements of transitory relational beauty marred by cyclic relational discord and suffering.

Aspirations for idyllic union with a person who perceives/feels/processes that same ideal dissimilarly--results in suffering. Because we believe that a common language is being spoken. Thesis/anti-thesis. All things change.

[tafkas]

I have wrestled with this issue constantly over the last 16 months. When she destroyed the relationship for the final time she said she didn't love me anymore. As she was destroying what felt good, in a heated moment I blurted out that I wasn't sure whether she ever truly did love me.

The first night I went back back to her place she was characteristically withdrawn. After a coffee and a series of mono-syllabic replies I stood up ready to leave and said 'you are obviously tired, I'll leave and let you go to bed' Her reply was 'we can go to bed'. I was delighted that the hottie before me was about to whisk me off to bed. I now recognise that as 'don't abandon me I'm a borderline' behaviour.

As the relationship developed, I realised that in many ways she was quite childlike and underdeveloped emotionally. I enjoyed advancing her experiences and I'd swear blind there were times where she had that look in her eyes that went way beyond infatuation. I was in love but was she ? She tried to destroy the relationship on more than one occasion and the first couple of times led to long email exchanges (she was an appalling communicator face to face). Some of the things she wrote would sure suggest somebody who was in love. She recognised and acknowledged all the things I had done for her, even going as far to say that she would have killed herself if I hadn't been there to help and support her on a particular issue.

Of course, it felt nice to know I had been influential to that degree in helping the one I loved. But, and it's a big but, this all fits the classic behaviour of a borderline. They often have suicidal tendencies/thoughts. Why given the wonderful impact I'd had on her life was she threatening to leave me for someone else, particularly given that she acknowledged what an abusive person this bloke was. Was he abusive or was she just playing a victim ?

This is all so confusing, of course. If I believe my eyes there were times when I can say without hesitation I felt love from her. When I read the literature and get input from you guys then actually what I saw as love could have been the detached survival behaviour of a frightened little girl who thought nothing of the havoc she was wrecking. That is not love. It borders on the sociopathic.

I have developed my own theory with regard to my borderline. I used to be a male stripper as we call them in the UK. I met my borderline as my alter ego. At the time strippers had a certain glamour. I went around to hers and we jumped into bed. For nine years we shagged and then shagged some more. That part of our relationship never suffered or let up. I think she actually fell in love with my alter ego. However, she never actually loved me. Of course they are one and the same. The alter ego is an actor. He comes out for 15 minutes and then goes away again. I think she perceived she was also with that alter ego when I was inside her. Of course she wasn't, she was with me. The alter ego gave her what she wanted. Sex can be a fantasy world where we get what we want. That is what the alter ego represented. In the real world, I would manage the day to day stuff - finances, etc. Here I represented someone who said no. The alter ego didn't say no he just did her good. Tragically, I think she separated the real me from the act that paid the bills and fell in love with a fictional creation. Like so many things about her, this is tragic.

[Reforming]

Hi Stein,

I find it hard to hold a ruler up to the relationships of others and make firm conclusions. There are very few perfect relationships. Many couples struggle with intimacy and communication. There are plenty of NONs whose relationships begin with fantasy and infatuation and never evolve into mature or healthy love.

Love can mean many different things to different people.

But I think your observation that your exes feelings for you didn't evolve into something more mature and stable, a love that was deeper is probably accurate.

Would it be fair to say that she couldn't or wouldn't meet your needs?

I felt like my relationship with my ex was permanently stuck in 2nd gear. And I think both of us played a role in this.

For a pwPBD I think emotional intimacy must be terrifying when you feel deep shame at exposing your true self to another. And how can you love someone fully  if you don't love yourself.

The devaluation and discard is horrible and it can leave deep scars but it's not about you / us. It's a survival technique / coping mechanism that pwBPD use to avoid dealing with shame. We become their biggest trigger, a living embodiment of their terrible failure to love and be loved. I know you know all this but sometimes we need to remember

When I was in schema therapy I asked my T why my ex was so resistant to getting help. She said that going to therapy takes courage and humility. When someone has BPD they feel so much shame and have such a fragile sense of self that acknowledging any mistake becomes an admission of their defectiveness. They can't separate their behaviour from who they are.

My ex said so many contradictory and conflicting things at various points in our relationship. I've come to accept that her words aren't really important. I'd focus on your exes actions and draw your conclusions from them

Good luck

Reforming

[ThinksTwice]

My uBPD husband of >15 years described love = need to me about a year ago, which floored me. He was tremendously hurt and angry  when he asked if I needed him, and I said no and that I didn't think need is a good basis for a relationship. Isn't it worth more if I'm here because I want to be than if I have no choice because I need you?  Not in his mind. But that, and the desperate fear of abandonment, make me feel like what he feels for me isn't love in the way I want to be loved. It's idealization and fear.

He's another example of love = sex. Which is a big problem for me, because I don't want sex without love in a marriage, So either we don't have it (which angers him as I'm withholding), or I fake the interest and have sex, wishing I was reading a book the whole time and feeling crappy about myself. (Don't worry-T appointment soon :-)).

Sadly, I'm not sure that how he feels about me matters any more.  We've done so much damage to the relationship, each other, and ourselves over the years that I'm not sure I ever loved him, but I am sure that I don't now.

TT

[myself]

Many pwBPD's actions show that they lie about Love (with a capital L). It might not be what's known as 'hitting bottom', but seems about as low as you can go regarding healthy interaction. Many of us think we would have preferred the truth all along, but that would have also broken the illusions much sooner... .Did we really love them, as best we could? How much of it was our own projections, wants, etc? Each relationship = different.

[joeramabeme]

Hi C. Stein

Is there really a way to quantify or qualify the answer to this question? 

Did s/he ever love me?

I think the answer is a resounding yes, they do/did love us, unquestionably so in my case - no doubts.  It seems the more concise question is; could they hold love in the way you and I do?  That too I believe is unquestionable; no!  They cannot and because of that, they go through countless emotional machinations to offset their internal discomfort from external realities and eventually discard us as being the source of the pain they feel.

Having come from an extremely dysfunctional home and taken an extensive amount of substances to numb out many feelings in my early life; I certainly had many relationships where my external behaviors and internal feelings were way out of sync and could be classified as BPD.  There was too much pain going on on the inside to manage "normal" feelings such as romantic love.  But I thrived on and needed the attention, the mutual admiration and the constructs of a romantic relationship.  Yet in the end, none of it mattered because there was too much emotional chaos to attend to that had nothing to do with the women as I was with.  Discarding those relationships just reinforced what I already believed about myself at the time - totally unlovable - but I blame you for my feeling that way.  All the same, I know that I felt and was in love.

I imagine that this is similar to the world of a Borderline; capable and complete as anyone else with all the tools but unable to sustain.  Building relationships, blowing them up and then again only to fantasize another scenario with someone else where the story line gets corrected according to an undefinable fantasized outcome that is all about the the feeling of, "everything will be just like I imagined".   

Does it help our detachment process to consider that perhaps the "love" was really just infatuation?

For me it does not.  Trying to explain or understand her feelings outside the context of what my felt experience was is plain old crazy-making.  Moreover she may find another guy that all this works perfectly for; as long as both parties are in agreement.

It is hard when we interpret what our understanding of love is against the backdrop of believing it was the same for them - especially difficult when their feelings are likely shifting, hard to share and be vulnerable about; so we fill in those unspoken places with our own assumptions about them and for them.  This includes trying to rationalize/explain why they treated us so poorly - in the context of the love we thought they could/should/would share with us.

For sure you were loved by her, but that love got entangled in her dark recesses - which is totally unavoidable when there is so much other deafening emotional noise.  We can't fix any of that for them, even though most of us tried.

In the end there are simply places along the path of healing that are blind areas of faith; what I experienced was true and real even if there is nothing more than a memory and a changed man to substantiate its existence.

[zeus123]

Love? For the non it's infatuation(falling in love with yourself under the adoring gaze of another), for the BPD it's narcissistic supply. There is no love between a BPD and another person or vice versa.we are attracted to people who match our own level of emotional development, both BPD and non have the same core trauma(same wounds) since childhood, the outcome has played out differently but both share the same vibration/frequency, this is why at the beginning of the relationship it seemed like match made in heaven. Try to drop the word LOVE from your vocabulary it will help you to become stronger and wholesome!

[C.Stein]

I find it hard to hold a ruler up to the relationships of others and make firm conclusions. There are very few perfect relationships. Many couples struggle with intimacy and communication. There are plenty of NONs whose relationships begin with fantasy and infatuation and never evolve into mature or healthy love.

I discourage holding rulers, they are not accurate.  In my experience I also have seen very few "perfect" long term relationships.  A relationship doesn't even really start until 1-2 years in IMO.  This is the amount of time I believe it takes for the infatuation and honeymoon period to develop into something more meaningful and sustainable.  It is also what I have experienced to be the length of time it takes for the "other foot" to come forward.  As we all know we put our best foot forward at the beginning of relationships.  Typically that other foot doesn't come forward for a year or more and many times not until you cohabitate.  It took 1.5 years until I really saw the true colors of my ex and I never lived with her.  I shudder to think what might have been revealed if I had.

Love can mean many different things to different people.

Agreed.  It is a very subjective concept, however I do feel there are some standard ideals that apply for most people when discussing romantic love, those generally being respect, honesty, trust and caring.   It might even be argued that these are a requirement for romantic love to even exist.  Note I underline romantic here because there are different types of love.

One of the reasons this all came to mind was because the way my ex showed her "love" reminded me of a highschool relationship, which we all know is a breeding ground for infatuation.  

But I think your observation that your exes feelings for you didn't evolve into something more mature and stable, a love that was deeper is probably accurate.

This is likely true.  This leads us to the question is this due to BPD?  Given emotional immaturity is a hallmark of the disorder one could easily conclude that mature/adult love is virtually impossible for someone who suffers from the disorder.   They might believe they are "in love" but their concept of love is immature and undeveloped ... .it never progresses beyond infatuation.  That is not saying a borderline is incapable of mature/adult love, but I do question if it is possible without real sustained effort/treatment to manage the disorder.

Would it be fair to say that she couldn't or wouldn't meet your needs?

I didn't have any needs, however I did want a sustainably healthy romantic and emotionally intimate relationship with someone I could trust to always treat me with respect and caring and would conduct herself with integrity.  I thought I had found that ... .I was wrong.

I felt like my relationship with my ex was permanently stuck in 2nd gear. And I think both of us played a role in this.

I can understand this.  Each time I felt my relationship was ready to change gears to something deeper and more meaningful (from infatuation to true love) she would do something that would push me away causing distance ... .i.e. stuck gear.  I worked hard to keep the walls down initially, trying to move the relationship forward, but I was the only one really making an effort to do so.  Eventually I couldn't find a way to keep the wall down, I had been emotionally compromised too much.  At that point I retreated to an emotionally "safe" distance, a partial wall, however that also meant the relationship was stuck in a big way.  When she destroyed the foundation for the relationship I had built for myself the wall went up all the way.  The gears weren't stuck anymore, they were stripped.

I guess the reason for bringing that up is because it is impossible to develop deep and sustainable romantic love when there are emotional barriers/walls in the way.  I settled for the infatuation for a while, but that just wasn't enough, although it seemed to be enough for her.

The devaluation and discard is horrible and it can leave deep scars but it's not about you / us. It's a survival technique / coping mechanism that pwBPD use to avoid dealing with shame. We become their biggest trigger, a living embodiment of their terrible failure to love and be loved. I know you know all this but sometimes we need to remember

I do know this and I think one of my biggest problems with detaching early on was the uncertainty of knowing how "borderline" my ex is.  She has at one point or another exhibited nearly all the diagnostic traits of the disorder and her behavior over the course of the relationship is consistent with the disorder.  I however question to what extent she is truly impacted (i.e. how out of control she really is).  This question doesn't bother me as much as it once did, but it still lingers in my mind.

My ex said so many contradictory and conflicting things at various points in our relationship. I've come to accept that her words aren't really important. I'd focus on your exes actions and draw your conclusions from them

I try to look at both the words and the actions and how consistent they are with respect to one another.  I see many of the things she has said as being what she wants and/or who she wants to be.  I see the actions as being what she is capable of.  The greater the discrepancy between the words and the actions, the harder it will be to resolve that discrepancy.  This brings us back to just how "out of control" she truly is and if she really is incapable of something more than infatuated "love".  

I don't believe I am really stuck on this anymore, but in the first 4-5 months following my introduction to the trash can this kept me stuck in a big way.  It does however still cross my mind from time to time, as is evident in this thread.

[Skip]

Some really impressive responses here. Wow.

I look at my own relationship and what others have reported in their relationship and I am left wondering was it really love that our partners felt or was it infatuation?  

Infatuation is part of love... .most who study this subject professionally view love as a series of stages, infatuation being the first. Each stage is legitimate and real. Not all couples develop through to the latter stages or are able to maintain the later stages and the relationships fail.

This simplistic formula is probably the same for most relationships. Researchers also report that most relationship fail within 90 days.

So how do BPD traits play out differently in this model? Is there anything universal that can be said?

And, how did we journey down the path? Did we also fail in the process and also have defective drives for staying in the relationship? In most cases we knew that we were not in a healthy reciprocal love relationship but keep trying to somehow make a swan out of a duck.

In a romantic relationship, love is a reciprocal process and, sure, partners need to, at times, do more than their fair share. However, is believing that our love in a non-reciprocal relationship was somehow superior to our partners love the right way to look at it?

"Too good to leave, too bad to stay."  How many of us lived this? Is this love?

[C.Stein]

So how do BPD traits play out differently in this model? Is there anything universal that can be said?

I don't believe anything is universally applicable to human beings beyond death, particularly with respect to personalities and interpersonal relationships.  That said if we look to the DSM-V and work under the assumption the majority (not all) of people who suffer from the disorder meet criteria defined under Impairments in interpersonal functioning then one might conclude that romantic love beyond infatuation is essentially unobtainable.

Intimacy Intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships, marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment; close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation and alternating between over involvement and withdrawal.
DSM 5 Appendix, Alternative Models for Personality Disorders. (page 767)

Given treatment methods typically focus on acute symptoms and not temperamental ones. Current clinical treatments are aimed at acute symptoms. Treatments aimed at temperamental symptoms need to be developed
Ten-Year Course of Borderline Personality Disorder (slide show 7/2012, pg 28-29) Mary C. Zanarini, Ed.D.

Is there a way to help a borderline develop the skills and emotional maturity to the extent where they can find meaningful and sustainable deep love beyond infatuation?

[CitizenBell]

When we split up my ex said "It's not a bad thing you couldn't make me love you." So maybe she never did. When we broke up she did say "I don't know what happened, I was so in love with you." Then later when I asked why she got me a three month anniversary card and met my parents she said "I didn't decide then that I didn't love you."

Decide? Like deciding what film to see at the cinema.

But it was infatuation and obsession. Maybe she thought she loved me. She said a lot of things that would make anyone think it was love. And she seemed to want it so badly, she would always ask me if I loved her, encouraged me to say those three little words, she was the one that brought up the word 'love' first.

It was crazy-infatuation, I never thought that girl could just walk away after talking so much about being scared of messing up and losing me and that I was her entire world.

[drained1996]

"is there a way to help a borderline develop the skills and emotional maturity to the extent where they can find meaningful and sustainable deep love beyond infatuation?"

I see a theme that you believe infatuation is as far as a borderline can go in their "love"

I'll pose another thought:  what if they are past the infatuation phase and really are feeling the emotions of love... .but they simply do not have the emotional capability to handle those feelings in an adult manner.  They may WANT to trust... .but their emotional development doesn't allow it
They may WANT to respect, but their emotional development doesn't allow it
They may WANT exactly what we want... .but just do not have the emotional tools to deal with all the nuances of the love dance.  Cognitively I think most BPD's actually do want love, it's just that their stunted emotional development doesn't know what to do with it when those feelings arise within them.  
That's when their well honed defense mechanisms kick in and the illness rears it's ugly head.  Being a spectrum disorder I tend to think BPD's can experience the feelings of love on a spectrum... .and when they stumble across a part of the process... .that well... .they don't have the emotional  tools to process or deal with that's where things begin to get unhealthy.  

It's kind of like asking a first grade kid to do calculus... .they just don't have the mathematical tools to understand the process. They can in time as they mathematically develop the things they need to comprehend calculus.  

Our BPD's became emotional stunted in their development at some phase... .for some it may have begun at the age of 3 or 4, for others it may have been 12 or after.  At the age they started their journey towards this illness probably correlates to a degree as to where they would fall in the spectrum of the disorder, it would also affect HOW they are able to accept and express love as a 3 year olds concept of the idea is much different than a 12 year olds.  Either way though... .it's not a mature concept at either age.  

[Skip]

I never thought that girl could just walk away after talking so much about being scared of messing up and losing me and that I was her entire world.

We hear this a lot on the boards.

Why was the "I love you" so convincing? Probably because it was genuine and heartfelt; as was the fear of losing it.

People with BPD traits are all about intense and over-felt over-expressed emotions... .many of us have a hard time navigating that. Your quote above is one of the most common quotes in the boards.

They also have unstable emotions... .meaning they change. They rapidly cycle (seen by us as moodiness) and they slowly cycle (seen by us as idealization to devaluation). Our emotions cycle too, but we tend to not express it to others as we know how damaging that is, and we are better at looking at the "all things considered" rather than be consumed by the emotion de jour.

Here is one love model, developed by Gottman.
https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-3-phases-of-love/

He notes that in phase II "Love in Phase 2 becomes punctuated by frustration, exasperation, disappointment, sadness, and fury. The most fighting in a relationship happens in the first two years. Thus, the success or failure of Phase 2 is based on how couples argue. If the ratio of positivity to negativity exceeds 5.0 during conflict discussions, a couple is likely to stay together."

I have long wondered if this is the same in many of the relationships we experienced. Giving the characteristics of the disorder, the over-expressed/felt love is now challenged with over-expressed/felt frustration, exasperation, disappointment, sadness, and fury... .and the fear of vulnerability gross (fear of abandonment walls go up) - negativity takes the relationship down. We recycle because the emotions cycle... .way up with good things, and then way down with bad things.

Many of us, unknowingly, piled on to this by finding fault with these feelings (and, by extension, the person) and the scale just tipped further and further into the red zone.

[C.Stein]

I'll pose another thought:  what if they are past the infatuation phase and really are feeling the emotions of love... .but they simply do not have the emotional capability to handle those feelings in an adult manner.  They may WANT to trust... .but their emotional development doesn't allow it
They may WANT to respect, but their emotional development doesn't allow it
They may WANT exactly what we want... .but just do not have the emotional tools to deal with all the nuances of the love dance.  Cognitively I think most BPD's actually do want love, it's just that their stunted emotional development doesn't know what to do with it when those feelings arise within them.

With respect to my ex, there is no doubt in my mind she wants a deep and sustainable love.  There were times when I could even say that I saw this type of love within her.  The problem is, like her self-awareness, she is unable to hold onto that emotional state of mind.  That level of love is just as fleeting as her moments of self-aware clarity.  The is a huge difference between wanting something and achieving it.  I would think in order to move past infatuation one must be capable of turning those wants into reality (i.e. a sustained state of mind).

[Reforming]

Hi Stein,

First of all let me say that I can totally relate to your periodic uncertainty about whether your ex was BPD. I went through this many times and I can still can my judgement. In some respects my ex is very high functioning. She's doing very well professionally- when it comes to her career she is highly motivated and very focussed. She can also appear very outgoing and sociable. She can be very engaging and sweet.

The other side of her personality, which was hidden from everyone but me, gradually emerged when we started living together. Periodic bouts of depression, profound feelings of anger and emptiness, heavy drinking, dissociation, deep distrust of others and on a few occasions violence. These traits only became fully apparent over an extended period of time and they weren't the only behaviour she displayed. She could also be loyal, warm, entertaining, and loving. The dark and light was mixed together in a heady, devastating blend of crazy and good which I struggled to make sense of. I still miss the good and I probably always will, it kept me there for a long time. But the dark was dark and over the years it got even darker.

I still can't say with certainty that my ex is BPD - she was never diagnosed. But given her genetic background, bipolar mother, aunts, grandmother, childhood abandonment - her mother's illness and protracted childhood sexual abuse suggest that it's very likely.

Whatever her diagnosis I do know that she was consistently unwilling to get help and work through those issues. I know there's no guarantees that good treatment will save a relationship but I also believe that staying in a relationship with someone who has an untreated and unmanaged mental health condition is simply self destructive.  

It took 1.5 years until I really saw the true colors of my ex and I never lived with her.  I shudder to think what might have been revealed if I had.

It's interesting that you never lived with her. Do you mind me asking why? Do you think living with her would have left you with less doubts about her potential diagnosis?

Would it be fair to say that she couldn't or wouldn't meet your needs?

I didn't have any needs, however I did want a sustainably healthy romantic and emotionally intimate relationship with someone I could trust to always treat me with respect and caring and would conduct herself with integrity.  I thought I had found that ... .I was wrong.

We all have needs and there's nothing wrong with that. It sounds like you need to have a partner who you can trust, you need a partner who can love you in a mature, realistic and reliable way. Understanding our needs, learning how to meet them and being able to communicate them to others is the foundation of self care. It's how we love ourself.

I do know this and I think one of my biggest problems with detaching early on was the uncertainty of knowing how "borderline" my ex is.  She has at one point or another exhibited nearly all the diagnostic traits of the disorder and her behavior over the course of the relationship is consistent with the disorder.  I however question to what extent she is truly impacted (i.e. how out of control she really is).  This question doesn't bother me as much as it once did, but it still lingers in my mind.

One of the traits that I've recognised in my own thinking is a need for certainty. Perhaps a better way to describe it would be intolerance for uncertainty. For a long time I needed to be certain that my ex has BPD. I needed to believe that I'd done everything humanly possible to make my relationship work because the alternative was more painful and more complex.

The truth is I can't be certain. Perhaps if I'd behaved differently my relationship could have succeeded. If I'd been more self aware and more focussed on confronting my own issues, rather than hers our relationship might have turned out differently. Even if the odds were against it there was a possibility which I didn't grasp.

This hurt a lot but I've also learned to accept that even if it wasn't enough I did the best I could with the knowledge and skills I had. And when I choose to show myself the compassion that I need I have the power to extend it to her. I think she tried her best too and it wasn't enough.

Through out our healing process I think we can slip back and forward between bargaining and acceptance. It's hard but uncertainty is one of life's great certainties.

[Skip]

... .she wants a deep and sustainable love... .she is unable to hold onto that emotional state of mind... .that level of love is just as fleeting as her moments of self-aware clarity.

Was it arbitrarily fleeting and blowing in the wind or was something happening that was chipping it away?

• One thing that affected my relationship was a growing resentment that she gave up her needs (mirroring) and I made even more demands on her. I didn't realize that this was happening. I didn't know she was mirroring. I thought she loved fish (   she hated it).
  
  Another thing that I experienced was that conflicts didn't get resolved in her mind/heart. If there was a conflict, sometimes she didn't even hardly voice it to me... .but it would wound and fester.  On the visible conflict, nothing ever resolved... .it typically got put aside (lets not talk about it) or she swallowed it (she loses). All this stuff was chipping away at the relationship slowly, simmering beneath the surface, occasionally rising to the surface.

This was my unique experience, but its one example of what Gottman describes. The natural conflict and negatives of "stage II" were a battle fought and lost. She even commented that she wanted to go back to the way it was. I think, if we're honest, we all would like to stay in that phase I, but reality takes us into that treacherous second phase where most relationship fold.

I think the push and pull was her fighting (and me reacting) between an intense love she held for me and an intense disappointment that is the nature of stage two. We stayed in that push pull for 2 years - intense love fighting intense disappointment.

Too good to leave, too bad to stay.

[C.Stein]

Was it arbitrarily fleeting and blowing in the wind or was something happening that was chipping it away?

Both apply in my case.  During the bulk of the relationship it was arbitrarily fleeting, at the end it was both arbitrarily fleeting as well as it being chipped away at by my withdrawal and her inability and/or unwillingness to address the issue that blew apart our relationship (and me).  My withdrawal/distancing is the main source of my guilt.

Our conflicts were pretty much always centered around things she did that hurt me or the relationship and there were only 5 or so really major conflicts.  I literally placed no demands on her at all, other than the expectation that she treat me with honesty, respect and caring.  The only thing we were at odds about was family.  I am ambivalent about having kids, she desperately wants (needs) kids. 

I have no problem with marriage and having kids, but I want a stable and sustainable relationship before that is even really discussed.  That stable and sustainable relationship was unfortunately something she could not supply.  She essentially wanted me to jump blindly into marriage and hope for the best.  That is something I refuse to do, both to myself and any children we might have.  She however didn't make a big deal out of this because her own conditions before she could even think about family were that she needed to stabilize her career.  I think towards the end she conveniently "forgot" her own conditions.  The saddest thing about it all was she was almost there (with respect to her career) which is a big source of "what ifs" for me.

[Skip]

She essentially wanted me to jump blindly into marriage and hope for the best.  That is something I refuse to do, both to myself and any children we might have.  She however didn't make a big deal out of this because her own conditions before she could even think about family were that she needed to stabilize her career.  

This is may have been a bigger deal than you think. Forget BPD for a minute, the relationship failure rate when one partner is ready to marry or wants family and the other partner is saying no is very high. The message here goes far beyond practical issues and deep into core value conflict and matters of deep personal rejection.

That is something I refuse to do, both to myself and any children we might have.  

This is far different than the two of you agreeing that you really want to be married right away but mutually agree to wait because ________ (resolution).

as well as it being chipped away at by my withdrawal and her inability and/or unwillingness to address the issue that blew apart our relationship (and me).

This is Gottman's 4th stage and last stage of relationship failure.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

My withdrawal/distancing is the main source of my guilt.

Maybe guilt is the wrong emotion to assign here (if you have any say in it). How about self awareness. That is the more positive side to "that doesn't work, need to learn, need to change".

Yes, the withdrawl was destructive. It may help to read Gottman. You (as a couple) went through other phases to get there. Catching and reversing before phase 4 - learning about 2-3 and catching it when it is reversible will work better next time.

Same for the "refusal". That might fall into the category of "dead right".  The outcome options were not get married or not get married (that would have been failure either was as you both had strong opposing values). The outcomes were resolve and find a way to get on the same page or realize that you were not compatible.

[Reforming]

• One thing that affected my relationship was a growing resentment that she gave up her needs (mirroring) and I made even more demands on her. I didn't realize that this was happening. I didn't know she was mirroring. I thought she loved fish (   she hated it).

I think this goes right to the heart of my relationship. My ex mirrored me and struggled to communicate her own needs. She repressed them - not uncommon with pwPBD, but she found this exhausting and she deeply resented it.

I remember her saying once "I make myself so small around you". At the time I didn't really understand what she meant but I think that she felt that she was subsuming her needs to me. It was often very hard to get her to express her needs but she felt that I should instinctively understand them.

Another thing that I experienced was that conflicts didn't get resolved in her mind/heart. If there was a conflict, sometimes she didn't even hardly voice it to me... .but it would wound and fester.  On the visible conflict, nothing ever resolved... .it typically got put aside (lets not talk about it) or she swallowed it (she loses). All this stuff was chipping away at the relationship slowly, simmering beneath the surface, occasionally rising to the surface.[/li][/list]

Yep that rings a big bell for me too. At time it felt like chasing ghosts. I knew she felt very hurt or angry about certain issues in our relationship but it was incredibly difficult to discuss or resolve them. She would either disavow her feelings or avoid discussing them. Then out of the blue it would pop up to the surface, like the tip of an iceberg.

I think one of the biggest difficulties for pwBPD is being to communicate their needs in a healthy way. They've learned be ashamed of them and so they repress them, but it leaves them feeling empty and frustrated.

[C.Stein]

This is going pretty far off topic, but I will address the points since it is my topic.

She essentially wanted me to jump blindly into marriage and hope for the best.  That is something I refuse to do, both to myself and any children we might have.  She however didn't make a big deal out of this because her own conditions before she could even think about family were that she needed to stabilize her career.  

This is may have been a bigger deal than you think. Forget BPD for a minute, the relationship failure rate when one partner is ready to marry or wants family and the other partner is saying no is very high. The message here goes far beyond practical issues and deep into core value conflict and matters of deep personal rejection.

Perhaps it was a bigger deal.  The thing is I never said no to marriage or family.  I said no to fast tracking our relationship towards marriage inside 3 months, which is the impression she was giving me.  She never came right out and said I want to be married in x months and want a baby in x months.  Things she was saying though gave me the impression that she wanted to be married within 3-6 months.  Looking back at the circumstances of her life at the time, it was very much a borderline driven need.

Worth noting, this whole issue came up inside the first 4-6 weeks of our relationship.  We discussed it, she expressed her side and I expressed mine.  We then came to a resolution/compromise.  It actually was one of the most healthy discussions we had.

That is something I refuse to do, both to myself and any children we might have.  

This is far different than the two of you agreeing that you really want to be married right away but mutually agree to wait because ________ (resolution).

A resolution and compromised was reached.  She get her career in order, which was a 2-3 year proposition, and we together take that time to get to know each other and build a stable and healthy relationship for a future family.  It was a resolution that not only benefited us individually but also as a couple.

My withdrawal/distancing is the main source of my guilt.

Maybe guilt is the wrong emotion to assign here (if you have any say in it). How about self awareness. That is the more positive side to "that doesn't work, need to learn, need to change".

Yes, the withdrawl was destructive. It may help to read Gottman. You (as a couple) went through other phases to get there. Catching and reversing before phase 4 - learning about 2-3 and catching it when it is reversible will work better next time.

While my withdrawal might have been understandable, it was a maladaptive coping mechanism that was destructive to the relationship.   We both withdrew after she blew up the relationship.  It is worth noting I did attempt on numerous occasions to communicate with her and to try to find a way through it.  She however wouldn't even take the first step towards repairing the damage, if anything she made it worse.  I finally gave up and waited, albeit in a withdrawn way, hoping she would finally come around.  She almost did for one brief moment, then it was gone.  That moment is when I think she completely turned her back on me and shortly after started cultivating a relationship with another man.  There was no conflict during this time, no arguments, nothing until she dumped me the second time at the tail end of a fight ... .only a couple of days after she gave me very good reason to believe she was involved with another man.  I did however being to feel bitter towards her as she continued to pretend like nothing had happened.

With respect to next time ... .I doubt there will be a next time, although that is not a reason for avoiding an opportunity for personal growth.  Other than a short 3 month summer fling, my ex was the only person I have been romantically involved with emotionally and physically since the turn of the century.  I have people in my life who I am very close to, just not romantically.  I am ok without a romantic relationship.  That is not to say I don't want one, but I don't need one either.

Same for the "refusal". That might fall into the category of "dead right".  The outcome options were not get married or not get married (that would have been failure either was as you both had strong opposing values). The outcomes were resolve and find a way to get on the same page or realize that you were not compatible.

The only conflict in values we had was my ambivalence with regard to having children and her wanting children.  I don't consider these strong opposing values by any means.  

Ambivalence doesn't mean no, it means I don't care either way ... .I would be ok with kids and ok without kids.  My requirement for kids was the sustainable, stable and heathy relationship which was a requirement we both agreed was necessary for a family.  Now perhaps she didn't truly feel that way after we reached our compromise ... .I will never know.  I do know she didn't make an issue of it, so by all appearances the compromise was acceptable to her.  More importantly though with regard to the outcome, she kept doing things that undermined the very thing she wanted ... .a family.