It's groundhog day again

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have been seeing a religious counselor to help me with my codependency issues, and also with my 2 sons. It's been a blessing to have a man to talk to about things, and he's been through a lot of the same things in life I have.

Mentioned to GF this am that I was seeing him, and here comes the insults. This may be a deal breaker for "us" she says. Then I have been seeing a therapist for 20 years and what has it done for me? Then what do you talk about? When I said we have been talking about the boys, then I get, so you have been seeing him for 3 months, and haven't even talked about what you went to see him for?

Then one of my sons said something I didn't catch but she did, so she says ask him if that is ok. I said, I don't take orders from you. She just kept on and on and on. Me telling her to let it go, but no... .

So she leaves. Then the phone blowing up starts. Cell phone, house phone, texts, messenger messages. I sent her back a text and said there is no point in talking right now, you will be ugly and run me down, and it will piss me off and I will be ugly back. So I said my new boundary with you is when this happens, I am not talking to you for 24 hours and until you apologize. She says to make it 7 days, I said how about 7 months?

I swear, I have to be a psycho chick magnet. There must be a sign on me someplace.

[Lockjaw]

I have been seeing a religious counselor to help me with my codependency issues, and also with my 2 sons. It's been a blessing to have a man to talk to about things, and he's been through a lot of the same things in life I have.

Mentioned to GF this am that I was seeing him, and here comes the insults. This may be a deal breaker for "us" she says. Then I have been seeing a therapist for 20 years and what has it done for me? Then what do you talk about? When I said we have been talking about the boys, then I get, so you have been seeing him for 3 months, and haven't even talked about what you went to see him for?

Then one of my sons said something I didn't catch but she did, so she says ask him if that is ok. I said, I don't take orders from you. She just kept on and on and on. Me telling her to let it go, but no... .

So she leaves. Then the phone blowing up starts. Cell phone, house phone, texts, messenger messages. I sent her back a text and said there is no point in talking right now, you will be ugly and run me down, and it will piss me off and I will be ugly back. So I said my new boundary with you is when this happens, I am not talking to you for 24 hours and until you apologize. She says to make it 7 days, I said how about 7 months?

I swear, I have to be a psycho chick magnet. There must be a sign on me someplace.

[Meili]

Ahhh... .yeah, I'm all too familiar with those types of exchanges.

Based on what you wrote, there are a couple of places that you could have taken the opportunity possibly change the dynamics.

Mentioned to GF this am that I was seeing him, and here comes the insults. This may be a deal breaker for "us" she says. Then I have been seeing a therapist for 20 years and what has it done for me? Then what do you talk about? When I said we have been talking about the boys, then I get, so you have been seeing him for 3 months, and haven't even talked about what you went to see him for?

Perhaps you could have validated/not invalidated her here.

Then one of my sons said something I didn't catch but she did, so she says ask him if that is ok. I said, I don't take orders from you. She just kept on and on and on. Me telling her to let it go, but no... .

Why the harsh retort? Why tell her how to feel?

I sent her back a text and said there is no point in talking right now, you will be ugly and run me down, and it will piss me off and I will be ugly back. So I said my new boundary with you is when this happens, I am not talking to you for 24 hours and until you apologize. She says to make it 7 days, I said how about 7 months?

OK, good that you set the boundary, however there are less abrasive ways to do it. Do you think that being less abrasive may have helped to calm the situation?

We all get emotionally aroused and sometimes respond out of frustration. It happens to all of us!

But, in order to stop the bleeding we must stop the cycle and change the dynamics. It's incumbent upon us to do so because the pwBPD won't. The bits that I commented on probably won't stop the dynamic and will keep her dysregulated. That's not good for you and certainly won't bring you closer to your goal of improving the relationship.

The non has to be the emotionally strong one and not engage. I know how hard that is, believe me I know!

Can you come up with any other ways that you could have handled the situation?

[Lockjaw]

I have searched for ways to speak to her that work, that help. She is very blunt. I mean like rude blunt. And she talks to me like she is my boss/manager. I have even told her before, hey I need a GF, not a manager. She does like a lawyer who is cross examining a person like you see on TV, when they want them to blow their stack. She is relentless.

This morning, I said multiple times to her, let it go. Not ugly, just let it go. Usually I ask if she wants to start a fight over something that doesn't matter.

The issue I have is because I am codependent, I am also independent, and I don't like people telling me what to do. She likes to tell people what they need to do. No one can tell her though.

I have told her I don't like unsolicited opinions. I have asked her to be my number 1 encourager, not my number 1 criticizer.

So right now, she is still trying to convince me I am the bad person. And I basically said I would not accept her narrative.

[Grey Kitty]

You are looking for the right tool--boundary enforcement.

I'd like to suggest you use it a bit differently. It works best for me if I state boundaries (to myself) this way:

"When you do 'X', I will do 'Y' to protect myself from the consequences of 'X'"

Not "When you do 'X', I will punish you by doing 'Y'." This variation is being controlling, and will piss off anybody, pwBPD or not.

Not
"You cannot do 'X'." This is a rule, and when you make a rule, you are challenging her to break the rule, which she will do. The choice and power are all hers this way. Look back at the first one, and note that you have the choice and power, as you are choosing to protect yourself.

One important note--You can choose if enforcing the boundary includes telling her you will do it either before or as you do it or not. For some boundaries it is the right thing to do. For others, it only escalates things and makes it worse.

OK, now applying better boundaries and enforcement to your situation:

Mentioned to GF this am that I was seeing [religious counselor], and here comes the insults.

I'd start with this thought: "My counseling or therapy is my own business and not something I'm discussing with you."

Since you are in a relationship with her, she has a right to know about your schedule, when you are available and when you aren't. In your shoes, I would avoid telling her that you are busy at a counseling appointment if you can do it gracefully, but not lie about it. If she's asking/interrogating around it, I wouldn't be evasive. I just would choose not to bring up the topic myself, as I don't borrow trouble.

However I would be firm that what you discuss there is between you, the counselor, and God, and not her business. The active boundary enforcement would look like:

"I will not discuss my counseling with you. If you ask, I'll tell you, and if you won't let it go, I will end our conversation."

You see how all your actions are specifically designed to protect you from being interrogated about your counseling session, and don't do anything more? You aren't punishing her for asking about it.

So she leaves. Then the phone blowing up starts. Cell phone, house phone, texts, messenger messages.

You had the right idea here, but it can be improved. What you want to do is immediately protect yourself from the phone blowing up. No more, no less.

Seeing all those messages, hearing those phone rings is stressful to you at that time. Protect yourself. Preferably with the least force you need for the job.

Can you "mute" her on the cell phone and on all the messaging/social media platforms, so you don't get notifications for the dozen attempts to get your goat there? If you can't, then block her. You can do this each time she gets to a new medium.

I sent her back a text and said there is no point in talking right now, you will be ugly and run me down, and it will piss me off and I will be ugly back. So I said my new boundary with you is when this happens, I am not talking to you for 24 hours and until you apologize.

Saying that you aren't talking to her now is excellent. Admitting that you will be ugly is fine.

Don't make it about her. "... .you will be ugly... ." You know how likely that is, but telling her what you know she will do is invalidating and will piss her off. Don't do it.

"I won't talk to you for 24 hours" sounds like punishing her, or a threat. And it isn't your purpose--you just want to get away from her blowing up the phone, and her verbally abusing you. If it stops in an hour, and if you calm down by then, that would be fine. If it lasts for a week, you aren't ready to dive back in for six days tomorrow!

"until you apologize" isn't going to help you much either. If she's just saying the words to get back, it won't mean much... .and if it is sincere, it will be offered without the threat/demand.

Better is to make it about yourself. Try this:

"I'm too upset to talk to you." Not at all about her, and completely true as well!

How much time do YOU need to calm down and center yourself? You can tell her something about this too, and if you do it right, it helps--shutting her out triggers her fear of abandonment, and you ARE shutting her out for your own protection, but you can be clear that it isn't forever, which will help.

Don't use words like "soon" or "later" or "a while". Those are vague, and risk sparking a fight when you come back about what it meant and whether you lied about it. Something like "I'll check in in an hour." or "I'm going away for two hours" or "I'll talk to you after work (assuming your quitting time is consistent)" is safe.

And note--if you promise to get back in touch, that is exactly what you promised--you are NOT promising to accept a bunch of abuse--If she launches back into you when you reach out, remove yourself again, immediately. (And likely you should take more time away than you did last round!)

[Lockjaw]

Thank you for your response. I see your point of view, and am eager to learn how I can make these things stop.

She says now she was calling me to apologize, she will only apologize in person. I said, then all you needed to do was send me a message saying you want to talk to me and resolve things, not to call and argue and try to manipulate me into seeing your view of things. What she expects is me to stand there and take it. She said an apology from her is a gift, and she can choose how, when and where. I said, its a debt. And I asked her to provide me an example of a time she calmed down and apologized rapidly. She couldn't provide one. So then I said why would I assume you were going to do something that doesn't fit your pattern of behavior?

So really she thinks regardless of what she does, if I don't talk to her I am punishing her. I said its not punishment if all its going to be is an argument. And I think she is bothered because early in our relationship, I would chase her and apologize even tho I had done nothing wrong. She says she told me upfront she doesn't like being ignored. And she feels like I treat her like a child.

I wanted to say, well when you throw a tantrum like a 2 year old, what do you expect, but knew better.

Her thing to, which is confusing as heck to me is basically this. We can have a fight, and until we see each other in person, we should just act like there is no fight. I don't really see how that works well. And it hasn't.

[Grey Kitty]

Thank you for your response. I see your point of view, and am eager to learn how I can make these things stop.

Hard truth: You cannot make these things stop. You can, however, stop participating in them.

She says now she was calling me to apologize, she will only apologize in person. I said, then all you needed to do was send me a message saying you want to talk to me and resolve things, not to call and argue and try to manipulate me into seeing your view of things.

This is why you don't demand an apology from her--it leads to a pissing match about when and how she will apologize... .in other words, the fight just keeps going.

And I asked her to provide me an example of a time she calmed down and apologized rapidly. She couldn't provide one.

True. Also invalidating and provocative. Even if you "prove yourself right" she is now more upset than she was before, and the fight goes on. You just lost badly, even though you were right!

Answer: Don't demand any more apologies from her, at least in the future.

What she expects is me to stand there and take it.

Don't argue about this. Just prove that this expectation is wrong, by not doing it. She will notice. Since you are removing yourself from the verbal abuse, it doesn't matter whether the subject is you not staying... .or anything else!

So really she thinks regardless of what she does, if I don't talk to her I am punishing her. I said its not punishment if all its going to be is an argument. And I think she is bothered because early in our relationship, I would chase her and apologize even tho I had done nothing wrong. She says she told me upfront she doesn't like being ignored. And she feels like I treat her like a child.

You know you aren't doing it to punish her. You are doing it to protect yourself. JUST DO IT.

If you let her turn  your going away into a fight about whether this is punishing her or not, guess what happened? You didn't get away, and you are still fighting with her. In other words, you lost, she won. And by "won", I mean kept you in a fight were you will both be hurt and both lose.

Key point on boundary enforcement--you don't need to convince her that what you are doing is right. Just that you will do it. Let her think you are 'wrong'.

[Lockjaw]

Ok I hear you and will work on it that way.

I need to stop the part about trying to prove a point, since it doesn't seem to work anyway. She does that to me, but I guess I need to stop doing it to her.

That is hard for me, because I want things to be fair. So much in life isn't, I would just love one place in my life to be.

Maybe this will help me shorten these things when they happen. Thanks for your advice, I appreciate it, and it helps.

[Hmcbart]

i gave up on fairness. There are her feelings and then there are yours. In my case, my feelings only serve to invalidate hers. 

[Grey Kitty]

I need to stop the part about trying to prove a point, since it doesn't seem to work anyway. She does that to me, but I guess I need to stop doing it to her.

BINGO. Stop doing things that don't work.

There were a bunch of times where I really wanted to say something... .and I stopped myself and asked myself this question: "What possible good can come of me saying it?"

While it would have done a world of good if my wife believed it, I had said this kind of thing to her enough times to notice that her (internal) belief clearly wasn't the result of my words at these times. Not once.

And you don't have to stick around and subject yourself to it when she does it either.

You can clean up your side of the street.
She can clean up her side of the street.
You want her to, and that is a valid desire, but you cannot make her do it. Stop trying.
What you can do is refuse to walk through the mess on her side.

And that is the best thing you can do to "help" her with her side. If you focus on her side of the street, she never will. Staying out of her mess and working on your own doesn't mean she will do anything... .but it does give her space to do so. Remember this when the unfairness and hypocrisy starts to get to you.

[Lockjaw]

I wish I had found this site sooner. It would have saved me a ton of heartache.

But it is also nice to see others have gone through it too. Just to feel validated sometimes, that I am not crazy, or that how I react is normal.

I get I am not perfect. I have my own issues, again, I get it.