help, please: should i contact her?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello All, I would appreciate some help. I've been posting under another topic ("oh dear, what now . . . " started by hmmmmm) but I would like think through some things that I think best fit under this topic. First, I will fill in some context.

My ex/partner split me black about a week ago. It came mostly without warning. We have a long distance relationship, and she was in some crisis as we split. She asked me to travel to see her, so I did. She was really in a bad way, so we agreed that a trip to the psyc ward would be good. Please note: she was diagnosed some years ago with bipolar, and she was definitely in some mania and had not slept decently for some time, but I never thought there was any BPD at work. We thought she might get some sleep and help for the bipolar, hence the trip to the hospital.

She spend a night in the psyc ward but was out the next day. I returned to my home city but as the flight was leaving she was texting me to say how horrible I was and that she would never love me. She also kept accusing me of slandering the guy whom she had split white (but whom I have never met!).

When I landed at my home, there were some angry shouting calls from her and one that was plainly delusional about having proof that I was a slanderer and that the police were her next step and the courts and so on (we're not married, but have been together for four years). She was going to sue me for slander.

I stopped all contact because she was so plainly disturbed and irrational and because she kept saying never contact her (even though she was calling to shout "goodbye" into the phone and then hang up).

But, but, but, but, I got a phone call this week (Tuesday) from a staff member at the local hospital where my ex/partner lives. The staff member indicated that there was a patient in the psyc ward there who was very disturbed and who would rest easier if she knew that I was okay. I asked the staff member if that "patient" was my ex/partner. The answer was "yes."

Here is my dilemma: I keep wanting to phone the hospital's nursing station to ask if my ex/partner would like to talk to me and whether she needs anything (I don't know how she ended up in the psyc ward again).

What should I do? Any counsel? She was so cruel while splitting me black but the phone call from the hospital makes me wonder whether I should venture some contact. The hospital staff took her cell phone from her, but there is a phone in the psyc ward that she could use.

?

[Renard]

Hello All, I would appreciate some help. I've been posting under another topic ("oh dear, what now . . . " started by hmmmmm) but I would like think through some things that I think best fit under this topic. First, I will fill in some context.

My ex/partner split me black about a week ago. It came mostly without warning. We have a long distance relationship, and she was in some crisis as we split. She asked me to travel to see her, so I did. She was really in a bad way, so we agreed that a trip to the psyc ward would be good. Please note: she was diagnosed some years ago with bipolar, and she was definitely in some mania and had not slept decently for some time, but I never thought there was any BPD at work. We thought she might get some sleep and help for the bipolar, hence the trip to the hospital.

She spend a night in the psyc ward but was out the next day. I returned to my home city but as the flight was leaving she was texting me to say how horrible I was and that she would never love me. She also kept accusing me of slandering the guy whom she had split white (but whom I have never met!).

When I landed at my home, there were some angry shouting calls from her and one that was plainly delusional about having proof that I was a slanderer and that the police were her next step and the courts and so on (we're not married, but have been together for four years). She was going to sue me for slander.

I stopped all contact because she was so plainly disturbed and irrational and because she kept saying never contact her (even though she was calling to shout "goodbye" into the phone and then hang up).

But, but, but, but, I got a phone call this week (Tuesday) from a staff member at the local hospital where my ex/partner lives. The staff member indicated that there was a patient in the psyc ward there who was very disturbed and who would rest easier if she knew that I was okay. I asked the staff member if that "patient" was my ex/partner. The answer was "yes."

Here is my dilemma: I keep wanting to phone the hospital's nursing station to ask if my ex/partner would like to talk to me and whether she needs anything (I don't know how she ended up in the psyc ward again).

What should I do? Any counsel? She was so cruel while splitting me black but the phone call from the hospital makes me wonder whether I should venture some contact. The hospital staff took her cell phone from her, but there is a phone in the psyc ward that she could use.

?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Renard]

A bit more information. My ex/partner is pretty much certainly BPD, but I've only figured out this since the incredibly difficult black/white splitting event that occurred back at Halloween.

Our relationship was not perfect and in hindsight I see all sorts of BPD stuff (but mild stuff), but we always had been so tender and so strong. I love her with all that I am and do not feel that I've suffered anything awful over the years. Rather, she is all the joy and beauty and goodness in my life.

I do feel destroyed right now (I still don't know how I made it through last night), but I would try again with my ex/partner in a heartbeat.

I should also say that this is so confusing. While she was splitting me black she kept telling me lies and told me she was telling me lies. I don't know what to believe, and I can't sort out whether there is some hope we might talk if she could just stabilize a bit (I am certain that she has both bipolar and BPD). Prior to the splitting I would have called her the most truthful person I know.

[Meili]

Well, let's not focus on her and where she's at emotionally with all of this for a moment and focus on you.

Where are you at emotionally with all of this?

Generally, the recommendation is that you'll know when to reach out when you're strong enough to accept the possibility of a receiving a negative response. Are you there?

I found this thread entitled Staying 101 - From joining via coping to thriving and the link found in it to another thread entitled Reasons for staying to be very helpful when looking at my situation.

Also, reading What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship provided a great deal of insight into what it is going to take from me to try to make my relationship work.

Maybe those articles will help you focus on your position in all of this before making the decision whether or not now is the time to make contact.

[Renard]

Meili,

Thanks for the resources. Since I posted my partner has emailed me. She remains in the hospital, but it's clear that she's cycled down from the instability she was in. We exchanged about four messages. At least we've agreed that we can be friends and write via the keyboard. She says she is not stable enough to talk about us just yet, but she had the goodness to apologize.

I don't think I've been split white now. Instead, I think she's still in the early stages of stabilizing. I also am not sure whether she remembers everything she said and did in the last ten days.

Enough for the moment. I am willing to go with the relationship right now. I am grateful for the resources. I should also say that this forum is a good place just to spew a bit. I'm often in need of a safe place to wonder out loud and to let some of my petty feelings out. I should also say that this whole experience made me find a counsellor to talk to about things. I've seen him once and will see him on Monday. If this relationship is to continue then I need to find ways to understand my own issues in it and how to be stronger in it.

[Meili]

I'm happy to hear that you had a nice exchange with her!

I do strongly encourage you to read (if nothing else right now) the first two and the last posts in the "Staying 101" thread.

I would not bring up any relationship talk with her. Let her be the one to initiate those when she feels ready, safe, and comfortable doing so.

Keep us posted on your progress!

[Renard]

Meili,

Thank you for writing again. I have felt so alone in all this confusion and turmoil. I also really felt so blindsided: the whole thing began with a 2:00 a.m. phone call in which she was splitting.

I will read the "Staying 101" thread. I really need some resources and I really need to find a way to keep my life going. I was so close to doing something awful in my despair that I still feel unsettled. To have had email from my partner helps but I'm still fighting to figure out what trust looks like. It's weird: I feel committed to her but I don't know if I can trust her. That's new territory for me.

[Meili]

Oh, believe me you are not alone!

I think that most of us share the feeling of wanting the relationship, but not trusting our partner. Rebuilding trust after a traumatic event is difficult. It takes a lot of time and being able to see consistency in action.

Because we can never truly know whether or not we can trust someone, it's always best to protect ourselves. I don't mean that you have to be hyper-vigilant, but you do need to make sure that you have proper boundaries in place.

[Renard]

Meili,

I see your point in theory, but in practice I'm still not there. I can't get past simply feeling sick right now. Even after the email from her I still feel like I'm not far from throwing up: I feel some low level of nausea all the time. I can't get my head around the idea that she has redefined everything in what was so wonderful a relationship. Maybe it wasn't for her? I don't know. Maybe she was just mirroring how much in love I was/am.

[Meili]

Don't worry, we all take our own time to heal and deal with all of the emotions. I've been at this a lot longer than you have, so I have a completely different perspective on things. I promise you that I haven't forgotten those times when I felt like I was going to violently expel everything that I had consumed within the past 24 hours. I have not forgotten the ruminations and sleepless nights. I have not forgotten the questions racing through my mind.

"Take your time and gently lean into all of your emotions." When I first landed here, i had no clue what that instruction meant. "Leaning into the emotions" made no sense to me. I could not fathom how to do that. My problem was that I was stuck in an infinite loop of self-talk. I thought that the self-talk was the emotion. It was not, it was merely a byproduct of the emotions that I was actually feeling and it was being projected onto the situation.

At first, I ignored the self-talk and tried to focus on the emotion. Later, I learned to combat the self-talk with affirmations. This allowed me to "lean into" and, eventually, fully feel the emotions while still recognizing them for what they were.

In their most basic sense, emotions are nothing more than a biochemical reaction to stimuli. Sometimes that stimuli is internal and sometimes external; it matters not which. What does matter is realizing that we can change the emotions by changing the stimuli. It does take practice though.

By way of example, I used to feel completely destroyed and worthless when I would feel rejected by my x. The self-talk was the root of the problem here. My mind was telling me, verbally, that since she didn't want me, I was unwantable. I learned to combat that internal dialogue with affirmations about my being wanted and worthy. That allowed me to actually experience the underlying emotion that I was feeling: sadness and betrayal. What was actually going on was sadness about the loss of the relationship that I was promised.

Later, I discovered that under the feelings sadness and betrayal, I was angry. That was the source of the feelings of violent eruption.

So, if you ignore the self-talk, what are you actually feeling?

[Renard]

Meili,

Thanks for writing at length. I really need some help right now: thank you. I am bloody angry and really feeling betrayed. I can't believe that she even has the gall to ask for space of after burning the house of relationship to the ground. I feel like this is such a game. I also feel that she is selfish in a way that I cannot fathom. I actually wonder why I would love someone so much who is capable of such selfishness.

[Renard]

I also feel so broken. I fear that I will never stop when I start crying. I have let out a few tears but not many. I am afraid that I could never stop and that if I start they will be the tears of giving up on her and on us.

[Renard]

I am not well tonight. I have seriously felt that I could harm myself but I manage to keep saying "no." I mean not to alarm. I think I am going to make it but the feeling of harming myself does feel like something of a cliché. It seems like a way of trying to reach someone who is so self absorbed to no avail.

[Renard]

Somewhere deep inside I still feel some love and some of my high minded principles of trust and commitment, but I sure want some of those good things in return. Right now I am so bloody hurt.

[Renard]

Weird: I read the blurb about this post: "relationship first aid" and the counsel about backing off a bit. I am backed off--way off. I am simply looking for the courage to get through the nights and the days.

[Renard]

It helps so much to spew a bit. That such a hurtful disorder exists and is alive in well in my beloved simply shatters me.

[icky]

hey renard. i know it's not much comfort, but it sounds healthy that you are feeling, expressing and processing these emotions. imo, this is what will help you to move on. keep up the good work. we all hear you

[Meili]

I agree with hmmmm. It is healthy to feel as you do, expressing, and processing the emotions. As for crying, it's cathartic do so. Crying provides a tremendous release of pent up emotions.

As for her being selfish, well, she is! But, I've learned to look at it as what it is, a survival mechanism. pwBPD aren't being selfish because they are malicious, they are just trying to survive the only way that they know how. They have maladaptive coping skills, and that's what we see. That isn't any excuse for what they do; they are adults after all! But, it seems to help when we understand what is actually going on.

[Renard]

Meili, hmmmmm, thank you for writing.

I made it through the night. Each night feels like a small success. I woke up with some insights today. That is, I was able to write out the facts of how we split. It helps on the self-talk side to capture things as fact rather than mull over endless scenarios of what I should have said, of how I could have been more patient and resourceful in the face of the splitting and psychosis.

The self talk creates loops and threads in what becomes an ultimately woolly mess that too often ends in self recrimination or really stupid blaming of her. I say "stupid" because this version of blame presumes there is no disorder at work in her. There is, period. She has BPD, period. Not only that, she almost assuredly has BPD mixed in with bipolar.

The facts are helping a bit because they isolate and contain the self talk. The facts let me feel a bit more clearly and cleanly. I have been betrayed in many ways, so I am hurt and angry and I feel rejected.

Meili, you wrote about leaning into the emotions. I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean, but I take your words in this way: leaning in lets me begin to think and feel through my own ability to remain in the relationship. I do think it boils down to a pretty straightforward choice. Either I leave for my own sake, or I find good ways to take up the stance of radical acceptance.

I lean towards radical acceptance because it fits all my values and even the way we defined our relationship. It's pretty early right now, though. I think one of the biggest lessons in this for me is to accept that I can't fix things right now and that there may be no fixing of things in the future.

I have some hopes for the future. She was stable enough to email me. I am guessing that her time in the hospital allowed her to cycle down from the mania of the bipolar and that the BPD is now more or less a single force rather than one compounded.

I may be in a different place later today and tomorrow and tomorrow but I feel like the panic in me is subsiding.

[Meili]

It's good to hear that you're in a better place, even if it's only for a little while.

What I meant by leaning into the emotions was to allow yourself to experience them rather than fighting against them. Letting them flow through you rather than trying to block them out.

[Renard]

Meili,

Thanks for your post. Yes, I'm a bit better even though it's a really difficult ride now. I have been fighting to find some equilibrium. I had harnessed my whole being to my beloved and it is difficult to live knowing that there doesn't look like any future is now possible for us.

Leaning in as you explain it helps. I think I've been mostly too numb and too confused to do anything but try to make it through each day and to find some meaning.

[Meili]

Yeah, just trying to make it through the day at first is pretty natural around here. We all progress at our own rate and our own way.

It helped me a great deal to stop thinking about the future and just keep focused on the present. There's no sense in borrowing trouble!

The other benefit of not focusing on the future is that while being in the present, you can focus on yourself.

[Renard]

Meili,

You offer good counsel: thank you. I admit that it is difficult for me to find the present right now, except, that is, for the way in which the day crawls by and I have nothing to fill it that matters to me. Still, your words really help because it the forecasting into the future that I find the most bleak prospect of all.

My partner and I have a long distance relationship, so evenings were always the joyous part of the day when we drew close via phone and Skype. Evenings now pass in a kind of slow agony.

[Renard]

I should also have said (without much irony at all), I'm not that interesting to myself, so it is difficult for me to focus on myself. I suppose that makes me an ideal partner for a BPD (there's the morbid irony now--all too true).

[Meili]

I should also have said (without much irony at all), I'm not that interesting to myself, so it is difficult for me to focus on myself.

Ahhhhh... .yeah, that's a common theme around here! It's good that you recognize that; it gives you a great place to start.

When I was where you are, I spent a great deal of time switching my focus from my SO to why I didn't care about myself. Every time that I would find myself ruminating about her, it was a cue for me to switch my thoughts to something that I could actually control: me.

One of the things that I had to learn was how to handle my own triggers. Being alone has always been a major trigger for me because of my FOO. I'm still practicing it, but learning about Triggering and Mindfulness and Wise Mind was a big help.

It also helped to use affirmation phrases. I thought that it was silly when I started. Telling myself that "I deserve to be treated with respect." and "I worthy of being loved just as a I am." made me feel foolish. To my surprise, repeating my affirmations (there were five when I started) helped me start to believe those things.

Have you tried anything like that?

[Renard]

Meili,

Again, thank you for writing. You ask good questions. I have some oblique initial responses. I admit that I feel a bit like a martyr sometimes in the relationship. I give and give. When we were together we sometimes would talk about seasons--that we were in a season where she mostly received love and care. I was glad to walk through that season with her and we often thought the seasons would cycle themselves. They never quite did before things fell apart and she went into a disregulation, psychosis, splitting, and the like (after about four years of what I still call goodness). Now, we are apart and she would like to negotiate friendship, yet I know that is predicated on having transferred her affection elsewhere.

I find myself thinking that I cannot respect her right now. It feels like such cowardice and selfishness and cruelty and deceit have been at work. She emailed to apologize for being "rude" yet that is such a staggering understatement. That I can say these things means I expect more of her and that she should be called to account and responsibility in the same way anyone ought to be. That I expect more says something of my own needs: I would really like to be treated with respect and to feel that I was in a relationship with someone who could be a peer. I know I am imperfect, but why could she have not talked through things? Instead, I was split black. She actually had the police telephone me basically to bully me: "don't ever call her again." But she is now e-mailing and wanting to remain friends.

This morning, with thoughts such as these I find myself simply wanting to walk away. Why would I ever be in a relationship with someone who is capable of such swings of disregulation, of such fundamental disregard for me and for the all the good things in our relationship? I say "this morning" because I cannot make my love for her go away. I love her, but the way the disorder comes out makes it hard to respect her today.

It is weird: I feel like I need to negotiate my own version of triangulation: I love that good person that she is, but I cannot respect that disordered person and I fear the damage she visits on me. I wish for the impossible. I wish that I could confront that disordered person and that she would hear the truth about herself and begin a journey of recovery. That sounds a bit romantic and unrealistic, I suppose. I think I could journey with her forever if she had some sense of what she has done (I actually wonder if she has forgotten most of what happened in the crisis of her disregulation or if she remembers a version of things that is itself a distortion and that justifies her behaviour).

I know, I'm stewing on her, yet there is a connection to me here: I am trying to find my own limits of tolerance and the fullness of radical acceptance and I am trying to find my way to loving her and continuing to give myself to her in some way without compromising myself and putting my life in a holding pattern.

[Meili]

Now, we are apart and she would like to negotiate friendship, yet I know that is predicated on having transferred her affection elsewhere.

How do you know this?

I find myself thinking that I cannot respect her right now. It feels like such cowardice and selfishness and cruelty and deceit have been at work.

And, it is rightfully so that you feel that way. BPD keeps them in a type of survival mode because of maladaptive coping mechanisms. They are doing everything that they can to not experience their feelings. Unfortunately for the non, this means that they project those feelings externally.

This is why it is so important for the non to understand the nature of the disorder and not take it personally.

She emailed to apologize for being "rude" yet that is such a staggering understatement. That I can say these things means I expect more of her and that she should be called to account and responsibility in the same way anyone ought to be.

No argument there. The disorder does not allow her to not be held accountable for her actions. We all must deal with the consequences of what we do. It's up to you to decide what those consequences are going to be. And, by that, I don't mean punishment. What I mean is more along the line of what boundaries are you going to enforce, and what changes are you going to make in your life? We cannot control others after all, only ourselves.

That I expect more says something of my own needs: I would really like to be treated with respect and to feel that I was in a relationship with someone who could be a peer.

And, you really need to make sure that your needs are being met because you're the only person who is going to do that. It is each of our responsibility to make sure that our own needs are met. That applies to every healthy adult on the planet. No one else is going to ensure that for us.

I know I am imperfect, but why could she have not talked through things?

Because, that's part of the nature of the disorder. You are looking at things through the lens of a non. It is perfectly logical to you to talk through things. It is not logical to her. Talking through problems is a mature coping skill. pwBPD do not possess those skills when dysregulated.

Instead, I was split black. She actually had the police telephone me basically to bully me: "don't ever call her again." But she is now e-mailing and wanting to remain friends.

I would strongly recommend that you learn as much as you can about the disorder before you make any final decision on this one. You need to know what you are opening yourself up for by maintaining a relationship with her.

I will also strongly recommend that you wait to make that decision until you are in a place of strength. Your sense of self will need to be really strong so as to not allow the BPD to cause you more damage.

I wish for the impossible. I wish that I could confront that disordered person and that she would hear the truth about herself and begin a journey of recovery. That sounds a bit romantic and unrealistic, I suppose. I think I could journey with her forever if she had some sense of what she has done

I think that this is a common thought process on the "saving" and "conflicted" boards. It's natural for us to want the people that we care about in our lives to be the best and healthiest that they can be. We feel this way because we truly do care about them. But, we all must accept that we cannot make that decision for them, it's up to them to decide. In turn, it's up to us to decide what is right and healthy for our own lives.

(I actually wonder if she has forgotten most of what happened in the crisis of her disregulation or if she remembers a version of things that is itself a distortion and that justifies her behaviour).

I would suspect she's fully aware, on some level, of what she's done, but distorts it so as to not feel her pain. Again, pwBPD have maladaptive coping mechanisms in play to avoid what they cannot face.

I know, I'm stewing on her, yet there is a connection to me here: I am trying to find my own limits of tolerance and the fullness of radical acceptance and I am trying to find my way to loving her and continuing to give myself to her in some way without compromising myself and putting my life in a holding pattern.

This is great! You should not put your life in a holding pattern for her or anyone. That just gives the other person control. You must be in control of your own life.

The way to achieve what you want to achieve is by living your life for you and having healthy boundaries in place. This will allow you to be an individual, but still allow for her to share in your journey, according to your terms, if she wants.

[Renard]

Meili,

I'm grateful for your comments: thank you. Rather than get quotes within quotes going, I'll respond with a fresh reply.

In truth, I don't know that she has utterly gone over to another. That was one of the crisis moments, however. She phoned me at 2:00 in the morning convinced she was about to die. She wanted to talk to me before she did (she was convinced her heart would simply stop beating). The subject of conversation, though, was whether she should have called me or X. I was then offered a bewildering set of scenarios about whether she loved X, whether she was leading X on, whether I could help her end things with X, whether everything she was talking about was "all in her head," and the prospect that she was "lying" about all of the scenarios. I was utterly bewildered and still am. However, by the time I arrived in her city (she asked me to fly to be with her) she had been telephoning X repeatedly and was utterly devoted to all that he said and to his very name and threatening me constantly (physically, even). I have assumed that she has pursued that affection or at least moved affection from me to X. I confess I cannot say for certain that I even remember every detail accurately because it felt like and still feels like a nightmare.

To not take things personally is a bracing thought: I'm actually kind of good at that because my role at work demands a rigorous professional regard for individuals who do not offer me the same. I wonder whether I could adapt in some good way this kind of regard for my partner (not replicate but adapt).

Your comments about meeting my own needs make me acknowledge that I give too much in this relationship. She called me on this once, when she was in a good and strong place. Ouch. I need to know how to back off a bit, and to see that I am too much of a giver.

Punishment really isn't in my bones. But, you have me thinking here. I think the boundary question probably means stepping back more often.

Agreed, talking is something that we do well, but when it's about us it can get unproductive, sometimes in subtle and swift ways that I fail to notice soon enough. This one is tough for me: I like to work things out, yet that's not everyone's cup of tea, BPD or otherwise.

I do plan on learning as much as possible. I'm very glad to have landed on this site and to have the resources and the people such as you to help (thank you, Meili, and others who have replied to my posts).

Waiting until I am stronger is smart. I admit to thinking I can handle all things, but I have been shattered by this experience. I have been seeing a psychologist on a weekly basis (which is only twice now) because I need a safe and a way to mend and to understand me and how I have contributed to things not working.

I love her so much. I know that's not necessarily the language of insight and boundaries, yet it's the unvarnished truth. I want to understand this disorder and still find ways to move ahead until there is some plainer answer that such a path is just not possible. I find it helps me to speak unequivocally of my love for her *and* to take up the best wisdom possible of knowing how to be good to her and to me in light of what I'm learning. Things are still pretty uncertain between us, but I will try to stay in the relationship if it is possible in some mutual way. I know it's an imperfect analogy, yet it will do: if she was ailing from some physical malady then I would not expect her to be entirely whole in body in every way, yet I would love her nonetheless. She is ailing in ways I still do not fully understand, yet it is reasonable and good to stick with her as long as she/we/me see a way forward.

[Meili]

It's good to hear that this site and the posts are helpful to you!

Your analogy is actually pretty spot on. There are many people who cannot deal with the added stress of someone who has a malady whether it's physical or mental. Some of us can however. My aunt had severe cerebral palsy. She met a man who absolutely loved her despite the fact that she couldn't walk and she could barely talk and feed herself. He married her and loved her until the day that she died. It takes a special kind of person to deal with such things.

Wait, she phoned you last night, or was this in the past?

[Renard]

Meili, indeed, this site and its members are helpful: thank you, all.

Thank you also for saying something about your aunt--such a beautiful story.

The call was in the past, yet there has been some contact recently. Still, I don't know our future, but that is immaterial at present. I want to be all I can be for own healing and life and all that I can be for her. She is wonderful to me, and nothing changes that.

[icky]

hey renard,

glad to hear that things are still calm, so you both have time and space to recover and regroup

keep up the good work!

p.s. can you try and jog your memory, as to what you *used to do* in the evenings, before you got into this relationship?

i'm sure there have been times in your life, where you spent your evenings well, comfortably, productively, etc and it would be good to tap back into some of that stuff