Wife bought herself some sexy panties

[Dragon72]

My uBPD wife and I have had a steadily decreasing amout of physical intimacy over the course of our 4 and a half years together.

Sex was frequent and good before marriage and went steadily downhill in terms of quality and frequency.

On the birth of our son 3 years ago, she moved out of the marital bed and into our son's bed and has remained there ever since.  Sex in the last year was monthly, ie. whenever she felt the biological urge, then every two months and then, 4 months ago after an argument, it has ceased altogether.  All physical touch has ceased too, as have any physical signs of affection.  She has been civil to me but that's as good as it has been recently.

On Halloween I was showing her photos of my school's Halloween costume parade (I'm a schoolteacher) and she saw a photo of me with my "team", a male coworker and a female coworker.  She asked me if I was "seeing" the female.  I have absolutely no relationship with this person beyond a professional one.  She then said that it would be okay if I were seeing her, but that I should tell her, that's all.  I said that from my point of view it would not be okay for me, because I am married and that I would not dream of going with another woman.  I know I should have validated her fear of abandonment, but in the heat of the moment all the lessons get forgotten. 

What she said really saddened me as it felt to me like she was declaring that our relationship was dead to her.  It's difficult to know if that's really the case as pwBPD often push when they mean to pull and vice versa.  (I hate you, don't leave me, right?)

Fast forward to yesterday and I saw some new panties drying on the clothes line.  Her normal style is big grannie-panties that she wears until they fall apart.  These were sexy g-strings with revealing lace as the front section.  And another pair of cute satin-y nylon panties.

She's always seemed to be very shy about her body (which I have told her often is very attractive) even during the idealization stages and has rarely let me see her in her underwear or naked except when we got together for sex.  For example she has always changed out of and into clothes in the privacy of a locked bathroom, and we have never, ever, showered or bathed together.  She has worn lingerie once or twice (literally!) and that has been when she has wanted sex. 

So this sudden appearance of sexy panties has stirred up a whole range of emotions in me.  I felt turned on by them and also grieving and sad that we haven't had a healthy sex life.  Could it be possible that she got them for my viewing pleasure? Was it just for her? Has she got them for the benefit of another man?  However, she has ZERO social life and goes to bed with our son at 7pm every night.  She's a prudish devout Catholic who never drinks or goes out, preferring to knit and watch soap-operas on TV. She's just not the affair type.  Am I being a blind cuckold?

As I wished her goodnight yesterday, I said "I like your new panties.  Could you show them to me on you one day?"
Her reply was, "What panties?" "The very obviously brand new yellow ones on the clothes line," I replied. 
She fumbled around, dodged the question and changed the subject.  So I wished her a good night and left her to sleep there in our 3 year old son's room like always.

I'm feeling quite tormented by this.  Any comments or suggestions?

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[jrharvey]

I do not feel good about this at all. Im not saying she is doing anything but everything about this sounds suspicious.

[RDMercer55]

I do not feel good about this at all. Im not saying she is doing anything but everything about this sounds suspicious.

Yes I agree... .The way she responded would make me lean toward thinking that there is more going on... .I don't know you sir, but speaking from experience I once said those same words about my wife and it happened to me... .Certainly not trying to be negative or influence the worst thinking but no physical contact, detached sleeping in another room PLUS and the BIG ONE, no concern over you seeing someone else = nothing good... .Time for you to get yourself mentally prepared for ANYTHING... .

Wishing you the best... .

[bobcat2014]

Red flag brother.

The fact she called out you for having an affair tells me she is projecting. I hope I am wrong here, for your sake. My wife was "natural" until she hooked up with someone else and then started shaving. Clear tell, something was rotten in Denmark. Bug her phone and computer and get all the facts.

[Warcleods]

Red flag brother.

The fact she called out you for having an affair tells me she is projecting. I hope I am wrong here, for your sake. My wife was "natural" until she hooked up with someone else and then started shaving. Clear tell, something was rotten in Denmark. Bug her phone and computer and get all the facts.

This is not sound advice.  On a logical level, if one is resorted to espionage just to prove a point, the bigger picture here is being totally missed.  Trust is gone in the relationship and it will never recover if both parties don't recognize it and work toward restoring it.  Stalking your SO is a bad idea in every way.  It's how an obsessive addiction starts.  When you don't catch that person in the act, then it becomes an obsession to do so that will be perpetually fueled by suspicions whether real or perceived.

[Lockjaw]

This could be innocent, as in she felt a little jealous of seeing your pictures and that other woman in them.

BUT... .I would just pay attention a little more and be objective about it. If there is someone else, it will become obvious. Think back to when you fell in love with her, and you wanted to be with her all the time. She will want to be with new person more and more.

The more I learn about BP the more I think my first wife was one. She did have an affair. I cold busted her too. If she loses weight, does her hair different and starts disappearing, then be worried.

[teapay]

This would be a red flag to me that something externally or internally is going on with her.  It would also be something that might effect me and I'd want to know what it is, how it might effect me and whether I would what that or not, good or bad.  If I didnt want it I would do something to counter it.  That is what most healthy people would do.  Why would you ignore a red flag that might effect you?  Isnt that one of nons biggest problems?  That, and fear of confrontation.

[jrharvey]

This is not sound advice.  On a logical level, if one is resorted to espionage just to prove a point, the bigger picture here is being totally missed.  Trust is gone in the relationship and it will never recover if both parties don't recognize it and work toward restoring it.  Stalking your SO is a bad idea in every way.  It's how an obsessive addiction starts.  When you don't catch that person in the act, then it becomes an obsession to do so that will be perpetually fueled by suspicions whether real or perceived.

I agree with everything you said. Those are the values that I hold and believe in. I truly want to have trust in someone.

That being said... .My GF projected so much on to me. She accused me of being places I shouldn't have been and constantly questioned every move I made. I bugged her car to see why she was freaking out so much and found out she lied about where she worked. Then when I confronted her about it she told me she never loved me and was using me LOL. Way to accept responsibility. She claimed to get another job and then lied about that too! Twice she tried lying about where she worked.

Im just saying blind trust just because you love someone is stupid.

[waverider]

I agree it is a red flag and there is a lot of projections happening, acting as though she doesn't care if you were seeing someone else is opening the door to validate her own thoughts.

Not saying she is doing anything but her fantasies are heading there. You do have a point why would anyone blatently hang out obvious evidence like that?

What to do? Try to discover why her thoughts may be wandering there rather than obsessing over details. You can't control what someone else does you can only influence their motivation.

Calling in the inquisition only creates justification for rebellion and feeds mistrust.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd like to comment on this first on how I'd interpret this in the context of a normal relationship with a normal sex life.

Sex was frequent and good before marriage and went steadily downhill in terms of quality and frequency. [... .] On the birth of our son 3 years ago, she moved out of the marital bed and into our son's bed and has remained there ever since.

General declining interest in sex, at least that early in a relationship sounds like a bad sign, especially if her interest is dropping and yours isn't.

Pregnancy, childbirth, nursing, and having a baby, growing into a small child all have some impact on interest in sex. Hormonal changes in women are significant, and can either increase or decrease libido at those times. Whatever changes those were, they should be back to baseline long ago. Parenting a small child (or baby) really cuts into the time and energy for sex.

If this was all that happened, it ought to be getting better by now.

Having a severe missmatch of libido really eats away at a relationship. The partner who wants more sex isn't "wrong". Neither is the partner who wants less sex. Perhaps the problem is something else that isn't compatible, but you cannot safely talk about it and resolve it. Whatever... .if you and she cannot resolve it, eventually it is going to be part of what blows things up.


What is going on? Maybe she's having some kind of affair. Maybe she's thinking about it, either in general, or with somebody specific.

Or maybe she's also unhappy with zero sex life, and wants to improve it with you, but the Catholic guilt around sex is getting in the way, but she felt like trying when she bought those, then felt too guilty and couldn't follow through.

Chasing after the possible affair and looking for proof isn't going to help you, if you want to save your marriage. (And interrogating her will just make things far worse as waverider said.)

Here's what is important--She just pulled the plug and took your sex life with her off life support. Here's a thought experiment--Imagine looking back from 20 years in the future. Imagine that you never had sex with her again. Or maybe it was once a year. Would you have stuck it out? And if you did, would you have regretted it?


Another thought experiment: What if in two months, your sex life with her goes back to what you called "frequent and good"? Would you be happy?

What if she actually did have a brief affair during this time, and then ended it, without you knowing it?


I'm recommending you try to address/discuss your non-existant sex life in an open, curious, and validating fashion.

This is going to be hard to do--given what you say, I doubt she feels free to talk about sex, and probably has trouble admitting that she even wants it, or asking for things which she would like that are different than what you have done with her before.

Can you listen without getting triggered?

[bobcat2014]

Red flag brother.

The fact she called out you for having an affair tells me she is projecting. I hope I am wrong here, for your sake. My wife was "natural" until she hooked up with someone else and then started shaving. Clear tell, something was rotten in Denmark. Bug her phone and computer and get all the facts.

This is not sound advice.  On a logical level, if one is resorted to espionage just to prove a point, the bigger picture here is being totally missed.  Trust is gone in the relationship and it will never recover if both parties don't recognize it and work toward restoring it.  Stalking your SO is a bad idea in every way.  It's how an obsessive addiction starts.  When you don't catch that person in the act, then it becomes an obsession to do so that will be perpetually fueled by suspicions whether real or perceived.

 Normal r/s dynamics to not always apply to BPD relationships. The fact the OP posted this here is proof that something isn't sitting right with him. If trust was there, he wouldn't be asking here.

All I suggest is protecting yourself.

The first time my uBPDw was cheating, we had been to counseling, a T, and many family members. She lied to every one of them and had them convinced I was controlling and paranoid. I finally received "sound advise" and recorded all land line phone calls in my own house. I got listen to her making a gyno appt. for a pregnancy test and learned the actual truth. This is an online forum... .do whatever you want.

[JohnLove]

I would seek to believe the best of your wife... .but honestly, with all these red flags and alarm bells sounding it would be prudent of you to take some time to discover what these things really mean.

At least for your sake... .

[Notwendy]

I'd consider it a red flag as well, but of what- is uncertain. With the tendency for feelings to be fact, the panties may reflect a wish, or fantasy, or reality. Maybe she had an affair- but the possibility is that she didn't- or is planning one, or wishing for one, or is fantasizing, wanting to feel sexy by wearing them.

One question is why did she leave them out there? Did she want them to be seen? If someone is cheating- they tend to be secretive- so why be so careless with the panties? Or does she want you to see them? Maybe she wants you to notice her.  Maybe she is trying to bring some passion back into the marriage.

Maybe rather than accuse, mention something about how you saw them, and hoped they were for you and would love to see them on her. Then see how she responds, but don't be reactive to her response if it is hurtful.

I'm not suggesting you turn a blind eye to the possibility of an affair, but to get at the reason for the new purchase if you can.

[Skip]

So this sudden appearance of sexy panties has stirred up a whole range of emotions in me.  I felt turned on by them and also grieving and sad that we haven't had a healthy sex life.  Could it be possible that she got them for my viewing pleasure? Was it just for her? Has she got them for the benefit of another man?  However, she has ZERO social life and goes to bed with our son at 7pm every night.  She's a prudish devout Catholic who never drinks or goes out, preferring to knit and watch soap-operas on TV. She's just not the affair type.  Am I being a blind cuckold?

Concerning: She's sleeping in another bedroom.

Not concerning: She's bought new underwear that is not granny panties.

I think I would focus on the lost connection since the birth of your son. Why doesn't she let him sleep in your bed - the three of you together?

[Dragon72]

Last night we went out as a couple for dinner with some old friends of hers. We were 3 couples and we had a lovely evening.  For the first time in 3 years since the birth of our son, we left our son to spend the night with my sister-in-law. So it was the first night that we would spend without our son.

We arrived home at about 2.30am, admittedly quite tired, and headed straight upstairs.  I took next to no time to get ready for bed and so I lay in bed in the master bedroom while my wife was in the bathroom getting ready for bed.

10 minutes later she appeared at the door of the bedroom, said "Goodnight" from the doorway and went off to sleep in our son's (de facto our son's and her) room.

I jumped out of bed and as she was climbing into "her" bed, I said "Wait a minute, this is the first time in 3 years that we will spend the night alone together and you plan to sleep in a different room?"
"Well that way we can both be really comfortable with lots of space in our own beds."
I just turned around, obviously disappointed.
"Well come and sleep in here then! I don't like the mattress in the other room", was her reply.  (She had just that morning asked me to trade the mattresses on the beds because she preferred the one that I had been sleeping on.)

I hestitated.  The idea of sleeping with my wife in our son's room didn't feel right at all. 

But then again, if she's actually inviting me in, how can I turn that down?  So I went in and got into bed next to her.  She turned her back to me, not in a "please spoon me" way, more in a "I'm going to sleep now" way.
I lay there for a couple of minutes and couldn't bear such an opportunity for intimacy being so un-intimate, so I got up and went back to "my" room.

In the morning, she came into "my" room and climbed into bed next to me and thanked me for letting her sleep alone.
No sooner had she said that, I said, "I'm getting up now" and got up.
"So when your wife gets into bed with you, you get up, is THAT your reaction?"

I went for a shower, picked up some work I had been planning to do from home, said "I'm going to work" and left for my workplace where I am now.

Looking back, I realise fully that my passive aggressive reaction to her was counter-productive and wrong.  And she seemed to be doing at least something to make up for it. However I just felt so hurt and sad, after 3 years of nightly rejection, and then this. I felt I had to do something, however inarticulate, to show I am hurting.

[Skip]

You guys are in a different place.

I can see why you feel rejected and marginalized. I would too.

I can see that she, from the perspective she is coming from, felt that last night was a step up the ladder from where you have been.

I don't know why she is sleeping in the other room. There is a disconnectedness for sure - physical connection. Reconnecting it is what is needed here. That will happen in steps and it will probably not start with the physical aspects.

Tell her you had a great time. Highlight the positive. Try to be the man she married... .not the broken guy... .she can't see that she has done it.

[waverider]

After so much physical time a apart it becomes a normality and any deviation from normality creates apprehension to the point of phobia. "Switching it back on" simply because there is an opportunity will not be easy for her. Just being in the same bed is a big enough step. Intimacy is another level of threat, and will take some overcoming. While you are making a point of it, whether justified or not, is going to be felt like an attack on her vulnerabilities.

You are probably going to have to do a lot of work on an emotional reconnect first, and threat the physical as though it is a phobia to be overcome. Which means removing all perception of pressure/obligation/threat.

[Dragon72]

Right now I feel so low and broken and ashamed of myself that pretending not to be all that seems impossible.

[waverider]

Right now I feel so low and broken and ashamed of myself that pretending not to be all that seems impossible.

Dont beat yourself up, its not going away quickly so you dont have to rush anything. Heal yourself first, you are no good broken

[Dragon72]

The problem is that, being riddled with toxic shame (what got me into this poorly matched relationship in the first place), with every day that without emotional or physical intimacy I feel less and less loved and more and more unlovable. That's not sexy.  And no matter how awesome a job I do as a dad and doing everything I can for her will make any difference.  It's a downward vicious cycle.

[CrazyChuck]

She then said that it would be okay if I were seeing her, but that I should tell her, that's all.  I said that from my point of view it would not be okay for me, because I am married and that I would not dream of going with another woman.

My wife will say things like this as in a question. She thinks she already knows the answer and wants to see if I will own up to it.

[CrazyChuck]

I felt I had to do something, however inarticulate, to show I am hurting.

They do not get it. I have noticed with my wife that empathy for my feelings is nonexistent. I even asked once "What about my feelings" and she exclaimed "f*** your feelings". Everything is about them. 

[Grey Kitty]

The problem is that, being riddled with toxic shame (what got me into this poorly matched relationship in the first place), with every day that without emotional or physical intimacy I feel less and less loved and more and more unlovable. That's not sexy.  And no matter how awesome a job I do as a dad and doing everything I can for her will make any difference.  It's a downward vicious cycle.

Nobody else can save you from your own toxic shame.

You can get assistance. A therapist can help a lot; do you have one? Perhaps a safe and wise friend can support you on that path.

A partner who is engaged in this downward spiral with you isn't capable of helping your or saving you. The *best* a partner can do is step out of the toxic dance, and let you have your own issues without further clouding them... .but what is more likely is that your partner has her own issues, her own toxic shame, and is probably more badly stuck in this vicious cycle than you are, and will resist your efforts to climb up out of it.

[Notwendy]

I agree with GK about the toxic shame. It seems like the two of you are looking at each other to pull them out of this pit, but neither of you are capable of doing that.

I think one of our big mistakes is to look to others to make us feel sexy and desirable. But attraction actually comes from ourselves. One of the most eye opening statements I have read comes from a book "Passionate Marriage" which isn't about BPD but about sexuality in marriage and what affects it. The book uses the term " differentiation" which describes enmeshment. It states that we attract and are attracted to people who are at the same level of differentiation. Then- it also stated that each partner assumes that they are the more differentiated one. I had to laugh at that one. So true.

Because of this- neither you or your wife can rescue each other from each other's issues, but this doesn't mean there is no path to change. The path to change is for one of you to become more differentiated- less enmeshed and through that, the cycle can go up instead of down. If your own shame is causing you issues, then that person to change can be you.

I think this belief that we need someone else to make us feel desirable is what drives affairs. But if this theory ( that like attracts like)is true, then we may just be setting up the same thing- an intense physical high followed by dysfunction when what we really want is a deeper relationship.

It's not possible to know how things will turn out with you and your wife, but taking steps to work on our own issues with shame and low self esteem will keep that out of the bedroom.

[Notwendy]

One thought I had about the sexy panties is that they may have been for you to see. If they were for someone else, I don't think she'd just leave them out there- seems she would be more secretive about them.

She may not be feeling so sexy or desirable and is looking to you to rescue her from this. But you are dealing with your own hurts, and also know that we can't "rescue" anyone from their low self esteem. It takes some confidence to reach out to someone else for sex- the risk of rejection is always there. Rejection does hurt-and learning to manage our own feelings when that happens is a task we need to learn. pwBPD can not manage their own feelings well so that would be hard.

In a long term relationship, I think that a "no" to a partners desire to have sex is inevitable. There is that initial period of passion, but over time, the other partner is probably going to be unavailable- may be tired, pregnant, stressed at work, not feeling well. Emotionally mature people can manage this- can see that their partner loves them, desires them, but just not now. But someone with BPD may see this as a personal rejection. I think this is what can start the downward spiral. This doesn't mean you can not say no- in fact, I think we need to be able to make that choice. Just feeling obligated to have sex isn't good. I think the goal is for partners to be able to manage the yes and the no over time. But I think it takes just one "no"- maybe you were tired from work, or stressed, but your wife didn't see that- to start this downward spiral.

This was a cause of a breakdown in my marriage. I was pregnant with our first child, and not as interested in sex as I was before. I thought my H could see that the reason was nausea from pregnancy, but he didn't. He took it as a deep personal rejection and really believed that his sex life was over- now he was stuck. Then he rejected me in return. I had no idea this is what he was thinking. To me, I was painted black out of the blue, and didn't know why. This behavior matched the pattern I grew up with with BPD mom, so I had to deal with those issues. So, while you are feeling shame and rejection, I would bet your wife is feeling that too- possibly even greater.

[isilme]

Regarding the "spying":  H had a big problem with emotional cheating.  This included chats, phone calls and texting.  It got to a point where I simply told him I would just leave if that was how he wanted it (many of these other women would drop the conversations once they actually met me, oddly, he seemed to want to make sure they were included in our group of friends, but that always backfired because I kinda bet I did not fit his black-painted descriptions of me). 

During this time, he often accused me of cheating (never have), which I now know was simply projecting his own shame onto me, and trying to justify his actions by believing I was just as guilty. 

Anyway... .I needed some sort of external validation to see if he had really cut ties with them.  So I started simply checking our phone bill for numbers I did not know.  Once they were all gone, I could verify he was being honest.  I think that is a simple way to start, without trying to read the content of her text messages or emails.  If all her calls are to like you or her mom, then cheating is prolly not likely.  But if there is at least one number you don't know being called / messaged often, then you know if you are warranted asking more questions.

The panties could mean many things.  It really could be a like Notwendy says, a call for you to "make" her feel sexy.  It could be a call to uncover her cheating (or a desire to do so) so she can come clean but still have you as the bad guy for discovering it.  Sex is tied up in a lot of things for all of us - we literally bare ourselves to another.  So it gets even weirder for someone with BPD to deal with even a 'normal' sex life, and yes, any rejection based on being tired, ill, becomes personal and forever.  There's a lot to try to unravel. 

[CrazyChuck]

Red flag brother.

The fact she called out you for having an affair tells me she is projecting. I hope I am wrong here, for your sake. My wife was "natural" until she hooked up with someone else and then started shaving. Clear tell, something was rotten in Denmark. Bug her phone and computer and get all the facts.

My wife did the same thing when we were dating. We were fighting so she shaved to piss me off. I also prefer the "natural" look. A few months later she told me she really shaved to have sex with someone else. She said she only had sex with him because she was mad at me.

I wouldn't bug her phone or computer. But it might be time to have a talk. Let her know that even though you are both going through a rough time that cheating is still cheating. That you do not want to cheat and you do not want her to cheat.