Poor mother is lonely today

[Notwendy]

I guess I am just posting to vent. My mother can be so pitiful. But when I give into it, she immediately recovers with a sly "gotcha" grin on her face. She seems to take pleasure in manipulating empathetic people, and has even admitted to it. She's done it so many times that don't believe it anymore.

I called her on Thanksgiving. She lives a distance from me and would not be able to visit without assistance. She's going to spend the day with the FOO she painted me black to. But she speaks about us both ways, tells me she doesn't really like them, then paints me black to them. They believe her and haven't spoken to me for years.

She wants a relationship with her grandchildren and believes I am keeping them from her. But they are older now, and busy, like most kids their age are. We do call her on holidays and visit but probably not as much as she would like.

So she says " I am feeling sad " ( discussions are all about her feelings- not  about anyone else's)

"I wish I could be there with you"

( I don't wish she was there with us- there is no peace when she is around).

On one hand-she is an elderly woman and is alone a lot. That is sad. On the other hand, her close family don't want to be around her.

I have empathy for her, but most of the time when she gets like this, she is doing it to be manipulative. I don't know what she feels. She's lied to me so many times, I don't know when she is being real and when she is not. Something tells me she will be just fine at the relative's house today.

[Sunfl0wer]

What if you assume she is telling the truth and is sad and does feel that you can help allieviate that for her?

Is this what you want to do?

It does sound like whichever way you decide, she will manage, so why not decide what you would like to do?

Or, you can choose to not go today, but go another day when she actually will be alone otherwise.  Or something else.

I have empathy for her, but most of the time when she gets like this, she is doing it to be manipulative. I don't know what she feels. She's lied to me so many times, I don't know when she is being real and when she is not. Something tells me she will be just fine at the relative's house today.

I kinda wonder if it is helpful for you to decide what you like to do, always assuming you do not have info or accuracy to know her feelings.  

Make it based on how YOU feel?
Vs trying to be doing her any favors?
(Sounds a bit like you are deciding based on wanting to rescue her from her feelings, so was trying to see if some reflection could help.)

[HappyChappy]

From what you say Notwendy she’s the boy that cried wolf, and only has herself to blame. If you take the benefits from lying, you must also suffer the consequences.  I have seen a BPD switch on extreme aggression and then switch it off the minute they get what they want, just seconds later as if nothing had happened. It’s a negotiating technique, with no real emotion involved, as you say   She seems to take pleasure in manipulating empathetic people.

I have empathy for her, but most of the time when she gets like this, she is doing it to be manipulative. I don't know what she feels. She's lied to me so many times, I don't know when she is being real and when she is not. Something tells me she will be just fine at the relative's house today.

That sounds about right, very BPD. Its good that you see it for what it is, I hope you do not feel any guilt, because you shouldn't.  

[Notwendy]

Hi Sunflower,

Your response is very thoughtful- it does help to know what I want.

As far as doing something about this situation- there really isn't something I can do. I live a distance away from her. There really isn't anyway to bring her here, even if I wanted to.

I don't want to. I am clear about that.

As to rescuing her from her feelings, I don't want to do that either. I think the conversation did trigger that expectation. I've been in the role of emotional caretaker for her since I was a girl, really. I was parentified at 12. My role from then on was to make her feel better, or fix things, or do things for her.

I've changed, but she hasn't. So I guess the conversation was designed to blame her feelings of being abandoned on me.

In that sense, she is right. She is pretty much abandoned by her children, after decades of abuse. We don't like being around her much.

I think that part is sad, in the sense that, it isn't what I wanted, or thought of myself as a person. I am pretty soft hearted, but my mother has a history of manipulating that. She is not soft hearted. I don't know if she is capable of empathy for anyone. I haven't seen that from her.

I guess like many posters, I feel sad that my mother is alone on the holidays, in the universal sense. But feelings about her are more FOG than anything else. Mostly the "O" part. I don't fear her anymore, but I did.

[Notwendy]

Yes, Happy Chappy- she isn't honest. My parents raised some kind hearted kids. It's ironic, since this isn't a trait my mother has. She shows no remorse in manipulating people, yet the idea just makes us kids cringe. We just can't do it to others.

Our relationship with our mother has required we be tough about boundaries. It isn't in our nature to be tough, we are so easily manipulated. I know that when I have let my guard down in the past, she seems to enjoy knowing she has fooled me.

[Sunfl0wer]

This is a bit delayed (yet could be apropo with next wave of holiday approaching)
But... .

In that sense, she is right. She is pretty much abandoned by her children, after decades of abuse. We don't like being around her much.

In my head, I put great value on how I phrase stuff.
I strongly believe in neurolinguistical programming.
I believe the words we use to paint things is powerful.

Just wanted to challenge you here. (Caring ly)
 
Is she really abandoned by her children?

That to me implies a message of inherent obligation to ensure your meeting your moms emotional needs.  Thus succumbing to the programming of her, that YOU do in fact hold yourself responsible for rescuing her from her feelings.

As to rescuing her from her feelings, I don't want to do that either.

Your words say this... .
Sometimes our hearts need to own things too.

Wondering what your thoughts are on the possibility that it may be best for you to abandon the old way of thinking that your mom has ingrained into you, thus, not feeling obligated for her affect of your decisions, as an independent adult.

Sometimes, with this type of mom... .
Hardest thing for us is to exist, and abandon the thinking THEY ingrained in us... .  And for us to think in new ways.  Often... .these moms have us convinced, any other way of thinking, should cause us great guilt, fear, etc.

(I personally love lessons on FOG! )

Thoughts?

Warmly,
Sunfl0wer

[Notwendy]

Great question.

I don't think I mean abandon as feeling responsible for her feelings. I think this is part of my ideas of how I would relate to a parent in different circumstances. I am at the age where many of my friends' parents have moved closer to them- to see the grandkids, to include them in holidays. Some of them help out an elderly parent- bring them meals, or help them run errands. This to me is the sort of progression of the circle of life, a parent cares for a child, and while the adult child isn't responsible for their parents' feelings, some adult children feel good about contributing to their parents in their elder years.

I think this is also the progression of the fantasy mother I wanted as a child. A mother who was like all the other mothers of my friends. Now, I see these friends and their mothers in this stage of life. But I don't have that mother.

I have gone to help out many many times.  But "helping" mother means she treats you as a personal servant - ordering you around in the meanest, harshest voice and screaming at you. Raging if something minor isn't done exactly how she likes it.

When she has joined us for holidays, she acts out and disrupts things, wants to be the center of attention. If we are to have any kind of peaceful family holiday - we can not include her. As to visiting, I do visit, she puts me to work ( she does this with my siblings as well when they visit). I am willing to help but this is the focus of the visit and I am not willing to be a regular worker for her.

I don't know if it is FOG, but I think I am a kind person in general and it doesn't sit completely right that my mother is an elderly widow who spends holidays away from her family. But that ideal isn't reality. I can accept reality, but also I guess that nostalgic wish for a different relationship with a mother continues even when we are grown.

[HappyChappy]

When she has joined us for holidays, she acts out and disrupts things... .I do visit, she puts me to work.

I don't know if it is FOG, but... .it doesn't sit completely right that my mother is an elderly widow who spends holidays away from her family.

Hi NotWendy,

I have struggled with these same issues, so I know how frustrating they are. But just as our mothers are different, that means we are also different. We were taught to put up with behaviour our friends would call abuse. When I first came out to my friends about my mother’s BPD behaviour they all said “Why on earth do you still go around there ?”. As one friend said, if someone chooses to be abusive to other people, they deserve to be alone, it's their choice. So maybe there is a bit of FOG in there, maybe not. But surely the question should be, how much bad behaviour from any grown adult should we be tolerating, knowing that we were taught to tolerate too much. Any hoo NotWendy from reading your posts, you sound like you have been more than fair to your mother, just don't forget to be fair to yourself. 

[Notwendy]

Thanks Happy Chappy,

You made a good point about being taught to accept behavior that should not be accepted. Ironically, it was not just my mother who taught me this, but my father and her FOO. Yet, we kids were also well cared for in other ways- my father was able to afford a nice home, we had clothing, good food, education. Nobody would have guessed what went on behind the scenes in our home- as it was not visible.

My mother has all the symptoms of BPD in a very obvious way. As kids, nightime raging, breaking things in the house, screaming, all kind of things happened on a regular basis. Yet, somehow, we kids managed to get good grades, get on the school bus and act as if all was normal.

We had no choice, really. The next morning, after these events, our parents acted as if nothing happened. If we said anything, they were dismissed as " all families have disagreements- it was nothing". If we persisted, we were punished. If mother got angry at us, she went to Dad and he punished us. But in our own child perception- he didn't act like her- so he was the good guy in our eyes. I think that was more difficult to come to terms with. I don't believe my mother loved us kid, because I think she is too mentally ill to love anybody. Yet, I know my father loved us, but yet, he allowed her to mistreat us and expected us to tolerate it.

As is well documented- this kind of thing sets us up to accept being treated poorly in relationships. I tolerated all kinds of things in my marriage and since things were so much better than what I experienced with my mother- I didn't even recognize them as not something to accept.

It took a lot of work to begin to be fair to myself- to not accept the unacceptable. I can handle my mother in short periods of time. I don't think I would be comfortable with NC. I agree also that I have been more than fair to her, all things considered.

[HappyChappy]

My mother can be so pitiful. But when I give into it, she immediately recovers with a sly "gotcha" grin on her face.

Just seen a seminar on how to spot a lier, and the gotcha grin is one of the first indicators they mentioned. . Done in a very subtle way, so you need to be looking for it

But in our own child perception- he didn't act like her- so he was the good guy in our eyes.

Your last post could describe my upbringing. I guess its important to count the blessing.
BPD make everything about themselves, such that we hardly talk about other family members on this site. Yet those relationships should be as important. I also struggled with the fact my Dad just let it all ride, even though he was a good man. Because I was the scapegoat, I was the child that never was allowed to hide from it. So even though I recognise my Dad was a good man, he is a bit of a coward. But I read that that’s the type a BPD goes for (well that or a NPD) because they know a good man will rescue them, and they know they are more susceptible to FOG etc... .But on the other hand, his BPD did her worst when he wasn’t around, so I should be thankful of that. How do you see your Dad in all this NotWendy ?

[Notwendy]

I was my mother's scapegoat, but I was also a Daddy's girl. I idolized my father. I didn't understand the co-dependency side of this. My father basically enlisted us sibs as co-dependents. We were attached to him, but that attachment was contingent on us "keeping mother happy". One little peep of discontent out of her ( blamed on us) and he would be angry at us. It wasn't a surprise to me when a counselor addressed my co-dependency traits later on. I didn't know that there was another choice in relationships.

My parents were invested in keeping my mother's disorder a secret- and so normalizing what is not normal occurred in our home. We were taught that it was OK for her to behave like she did. ( but not OK for us to behave like that). We were expected to be enablers. That was our normal. As we got older- we knew there was something not right about our mother but we were not allowed to ask about it.

How did I see my father? Well not understanding co-dependency- I didn't understand how he put up with it. We would not have blamed him if he chose to leave her, but he didn't. He really was in love with her, even if it was difficult for him.

That sly grin- she lies and seems to enjoy it.  I really can't tell if my mother cares about us, or if she is just being manipulative. We, her kids, are kind hearted and just can't imagine someone doing this to others, so we sometimes have been gullible to this.