How to leave our parents?

[VitaminC]

How do we leave people who need us, who rely on us, for whom we feel responsibility that ends up holding us back in our lives? Especially when these people are our parents.

I could probably answer this myself by speaking about co-dependency and parentifying your kids and emotional enmeshment etc etc. But to be honest, I cannot do this for myself just at the moment because it is exhausting me; the constant pull to be 'there' in the right way. Meaning I need to be cheerful and share my own life and be involved in ways I just don't feel like right now.

This has always been the case, since I was a nipper. Especially my mother, sweet and loving and a little prone to depression who somehow very early on began to rely on me to be a wise and supportive sort of friend-daughter. When I was 11 or 12 I felt the pressure to know what my mother ought to do about things I did not really understand.

I have always known this. It has made me self-reliant in the extreme. Less than trusting of others, because, well, they're probably not up to whatever it is I need them to be for me anyway. I need a lot of energy sometimes to keep my boundaries and stay up-beat and share just enough to help my mom feel like she is involved in my life.

Right now, for a few different reasons, this is on my mind and I am feeling quite resentful and irritated by it. Also, of course, there is the guilt that accompanies this.

Whatever I have learned about being a whole human being, I am afraid to say has nothing to do with things modelled by my parents. Who are good people, who did their best, who were young parents and worked hard and always thought of the kids etc etc. I have to state this. But as humans living a fulfilling life, they are pretty incompetent. And I wish for their sake as much as my own that this were not the case. But there it is; they are what they are.

And now, my mother is isolated in that she is taking care of her mother, who is aged and has Alzheimer's. A difficult job, a demanding one. It is hard to keep one's spirits up and all things running smoothly for anyone, but particularly for someone who has never really had those skills in abundance.

My mother does not have BPD. Her mother, my formidable wonderful grandmother, definitely has some narcissistic tendencies. I figured out on a recent visit home why I feel so easy around my granny and often a bit irritated by my mom. My granny mostly cares about herself and therefore I am absolved of emotional responsibility for her. I give so gladly to her, so freely. With my mother, some part of me always holds back and finds her too cloying, too reliant.

I see it all, I understand, I have thought about it a thousand times and made my peace with it, and yet, clearly, this continues to be an issue that will never resolve. Someone told me I had to leave my parents at some level. Yes, I know what they meant. And I have and I do and yet sometimes the twin-ply wool of resentment and guilt is just crippling.

[Turkish]

To boil it down, it sounds like you feel you were an emotionally neglected child, and resentment remains. If true, does it carry over into other aspects of your life?

For me, it's the feeling that I don't really need anybody (because they'll let me down). I'm not quite getting the possible resentment of your mother vs the opposite with grandma though... .

[VitaminC]

To boil it down, it sounds like you feel you were an emotionally neglected child, and resentment remains. If true, does it carry over into other aspects of your life?

Thank you, Turkish. Wolves don't mince their words  
Yes, that would be accurate. The reason I am resentful now is not because of the past, it's because it is still going on! I don't want or need my parents to be there for me emotionally; I am not even sure what that would look like, to be honest. I just want them to bloody well look after their own emotions for a change, instead of somehow looking to me. Especially my mother. That woman would give you both her kidneys, if you needed them. And then look at you sadly.

I can't handle it! If she would do something obnoxious to give me grounds for getting angry, but no.

For me, it's the feeling that I don't really need anybody (because they'll let me down).

Yep. I keep forgetting that this is my most deeply held belief. I get carried away on waves of positivity and creativity and love for humanity, bla bla, but then something happens and I realise that I trust nobody to be there for me.

I'm not quite getting the possible resentment of your mother vs the opposite with grandma though... .

So, my mother needs me, which I am sick of. She needs and gives. She feels empty if I don't support her emotionally; I do not see that she has anyone else to rely on. She has said as much.  That's about it, emotionally speaking.  The moment I get fed up, I have an equal amount of guilt. Then I am full of two things; resentment and guilt. That does not leave room for much else.

My granny is selfish.  She's happy enough to chat to me, but ultimately only cares about how I make her feel. I can't explain it, it seems so obvious to me. I don't feel the pressure from her the same way.  I feel no pressure from her. I feel a lot of pressure from my mother.

Granny doesn't need me. Mom needs me.
I feel close to Granny, I (sometimes) feel repelled my Mom.  [This hurts me to say, btw.]

This is something I only noticed on a recent visit home (my family live far away). I think it's significant. I have to figure it out.

I should add something important:  My mother makes me choose between her and my granny, between her and my dad. She has been doing it for years.   She wants me to have a relationship with both these people, she does. But if I am home and visiting, she monopolizes me and I really have to be firm about spending time with the other two.   

My relationship with my dad has never been great and it's often just as easy to avoid him. So I have to remind myself to make an effort there - be firm with my mom and then get what I can for myself out of any time spent with my dad.  I really have to work at it to extract the positive for myself out of this one.

As for my granny, she needs so much help now that this is easier. I run to help and tell my mom to take a much needed break.  She is both relieved and grateful and jealous of the time I am devoting to someone else. Seriously. This absolutely does my head in. The last time I was home, I managed everyone and most importantly myself. I was centered and stable and wise and focussed. It was work.  Thanks for the holiday, family. pff.   

[Grey Kitty]

This has always been the case, since I was a nipper. Especially my mother, sweet and loving and a little prone to depression who somehow very early on began to rely on me to be a wise and supportive sort of friend-daughter. When I was 11 or 12 I felt the pressure to know what my mother ought to do about things I did not really understand.

I'm not sure how far she took this, but there is a rather harsh phrase that comes to mind. Emotional incest.

You were a child, and she was forcing you into taking an adult role with her that you weren't ready for, and completely failed at parenting you in that way.

This is tough for you, as you have two simultaneous problems... .

1. How to learn/grow/heal/recover from this into a healthy adult. (You have clearly worked on this already, although you probably aren't done yet.)

2. How to have a healthy relationship with your mother today as an adult. With her in a difficult situation needing support... .and still having leftover baggage that you need to sort through regarding her. (See #1)

I think building good boundaries is your best tool here.

[VitaminC]

Thanks, GreyKitty. Yes, I've read about emotional incest. I really dislike the term and prefer " parentifying".  But either way, all you say us right.

I'm surprised at how angry I got about this recently;  I was shaking with rage.

Trying to think what things sparked it. I'm sure I was triggered by stuff that's not even to do with my mother and realised that my inability to see my way clear of some pretty minor annoyances comes from old, learned behaviours. And then some low - level ' poor me' stuff from my mom ( totally understandable in her situation ) just pushed me over the edge.

I've got to get clear of immediate reaction before I can start to look at strategies, I think.  

Boundaries, yes.
Thanks again for your input !

[Grey Kitty]

Use the words that work for you. And let  yourself really feel how angry you are when it comes up. Or sad, or whatever comes up.

Can we help you work out what sort of boundaries you want to enforce with your mother?

[valet]

I had an interesting conversation with my Mom last night that re-cued me into some things that I had let fall by the wayside for a minute. I was talking about how I've been a little depressed and stressed out lately, and she totally blamed me for it in a weird way. Like, she just didn't understand why I'm struggling to find motivation: told me to quit being lazy and get on with things, without really acknowledging what I was saying to her, while also just ignoring how she's always asking me for help with something amidst my admirably self-propagated insane schedule.

I think a lot of what happens in the family stays in the family, and the only way out of that is distance, both physical and emotional. I've never been super close with my Mom, and I definitely wasn't with my Dad, but I used to pressure myself a lot more to try to be these things. Turns out that it was pushing a square peg into a round hole, so I don't try anymore.

It might be wise to consider where there pressure to stay obligated is coming from, VitaminC. Surely it's a combination of both your internal expectations and the way you and your mother interact. You might never have that idealized 'normal' relationship, but you can take a look at your triggers when interacting with your family. This is kind of like a permanent stoppage to the bleeding in some sense. If you eliminate your own internal conflict/drama regarding her, it could be easier to be yourself around her when you feel like you really need to be there. Hell, when I'm with my Mom now I just say basically whatever I want, because despite both of our faults I know she isn't gonna scream at me or give me the silent treatment like my ex did.

[VitaminC]

Thanks, guys. Yes, I'll need some help and will ask more specific questions as soon as I've figured out what they are

[ScotisGone74]

This is currently what I m struggling with as well.   I'm very very LC with my parents, talked to them twice in the past two years by telephone.  My mom is now sending holiday cards with a bunch of stuff written in them,  like she doesn't know how long her and my dad will be around, and I should bring my kids around more.   The problem is that when I did invite her to my kids birthday parties my mom is the one who would act like a 5 year old throwing tantrums and pouting literally, and growing up her most used tactic was to always lay a guilt trip on me.    I haven't took the bait yet and re engaged.   Honestly I would really like to break it all down for her and tell her what a selfish non parent/grandparent she has been all these years but I'm afraid that it would all just go over her head much like many of our exBPD s. 

[boatman]

Hi Vitamin C-

I'm sorry for what you have gone through.

I can relate as my parents were also emotionally neglectful, and my mother also being emotionally reliant on my sister and I.

My relationship with my dad has never been great and it's often just as easy to avoid him. So I have to remind myself to make an effort there - be firm with my mom and then get what I can for myself out of any time spent with my dad. I really have to work at it to extract the positive for myself out of this one.

I too used to work like crazy to try to gain some healthy attention from my parents. About 5 years ago I had a therapist tell me that it didn't seem like my parents had any attachment to me. It made me furious in the moment, but I came to realize that my therapist was right. Once I recognized it, I was able to stop working so hard and have some separation from my parents in order to process feeling rejected by them. I have chosen to have no contact with them. You might not necessarily choose that, but perhaps some space from them right now would be helpful to you so you can process the feelings coming up in the moment.

 

[VitaminC]

Thank you, everyone, for your kindness and insights.

And let  yourself really feel how angry you are when it comes up. Or sad, or whatever comes up.

Can we help you work out what sort of boundaries you want to enforce with your mother?

Thank you. I really hate getting carried away with emotion sometimes. I'm very selective about which emotions I like. I don't like losing three days of my life to feeling furious, and only then realising I actually feel sad. And then being sad for three days before getting to the degree or type of sadness that is actually useful in some way - that can be channeled into something interesting.

It's the weird thing about working out the really old stuff - I can really see how slowly my awareness creaks along. That makes sense, of course, I just forgot about it.

I think, once again, I am getting a reminder that I am tend to operate kind of far out of my center and that I really need to do things constantly to stay centered.

I think the boundaries I need to enforce are really hardly at all to do with my mother, and almost all to do with the sense of obligation and guilt that I carry around and that occasionally catches me off guard, like it did there recently, hence this post. 

It might be wise to consider where there pressure to stay obligated is coming from, VitaminC. Surely it's a combination of both your internal expectations and the way you and your mother interact.

If you eliminate your own internal conflict/drama regarding her, it could be easier to be yourself around her when you feel like you really need to be there.

I think you're spot on there, dear valet. I'm thinking that we can't entirely eliminate all internal conflicts and dramas, because isn't that part of being human?  We owe others something too, sometimes that's hard and sometimes not fair and sometimes we wish it to just go away. The pain of others sometimes rightly causes us pain too.

Navigating our social and private selves / obligations is sometimes difficult for me.

I'm thinking that it's when I'm not paying attention to myself (see above) and then I suddenly feel overwhelmed and slip back into old grooves of guilt and resentment and feel both my obligation and a childish/selfish desire to just not have to feel any of that at all.

Honestly I would really like to break it all down for her and tell her what a selfish non parent/grandparent she has been all these years

I know that this is something that wouldn't work for me. I am aware of how absolutely crushed my mother would be to know that I think she has done a poor job of mothering. It is one of the crucial ways she defines herself. And there is little to be gained by causing such a rupture in her world now. No, I feel that this is my own problem, at this stage of my life.

That's not to say that some kind of truth-telling (either all out or strategic) might not be the right thing to do in your own situation. What is sometimes recommended here for that strong urge to let it all out is to do that, but in a way that is for yourself. So write it down or tell a friend or therapist, and really go for it, don't hold back.

There is the need to express and the need to change the status quo and sometimes the need to have the other hear what you have to say. The three things sometimes get mixed up together, when they are not necessarily the same thing at all.

For me, I need to find a way to be authentic without causing undue pain, in this situation anyway. 

About 5 years ago I had a therapist tell me that it didn't seem like my parents had any attachment to me.

... .Once I recognized it, I was able to stop working so hard and have some separation from my parents in order to process feeling rejected by them.

Yes, I guess, especially if we've grown up feeling unduly responsible for others, we can overestimate how reliant they are on us or how much power we actually have to change or improve anything for them. Realising that our affect is limited can be freeing.   

***
There's two things I think this is about for me: 1) my actual responsibility to other people in my life and 2) balancing that with my actual responsibility for myself.

It seems I still have not got the hang of this, and this recent wobble reminds me that I am very prone to forgetting to take care of my own emotional needs.  And not only that, but I am judgmental about my emotions. Some are allowed and some are frowned upon. Also, I think I run into problems when strong emotions catch me by surprise and I can't figure them out and use them to spur me on to some kind of activity.

[Grey Kitty]

I really hate getting carried away with emotion sometimes. I'm very selective about which emotions I like. I don't like losing three days of my life to feeling furious, and only then realising I actually feel sad. And then being sad for three days before getting to the degree or type of sadness that is actually useful in some way - that can be channeled into something interesting.

Ain't it a b**** how we don't get to choose only to have the feelings we like? 

But that's a fundamental truth about being human--you cannot numb yourself to or distract yourself from the unpleasant or bad feelings and still experience the good feelings too. If you open yourself up, you get them all. If you close yourself down, you don't get any.

Keep on feeling what you have the strength to feel. You will be better for it.

And don't feel bad when you hit your limit and need to close yourself up. That's part of the process too. Try not to do it longer than you need to though.

[valet]

I think you're spot on there, dear valet. I'm thinking that we can't entirely eliminate all internal conflicts and dramas, because isn't that part of being human?  We owe others something too, sometimes that's hard and sometimes not fair and sometimes we wish it to just go away. The pain of others sometimes rightly causes us pain too.

Navigating our social and private selves / obligations is sometimes difficult for me.

I'm thinking that it's when I'm not paying attention to myself (see above) and then I suddenly feel overwhelmed and slip back into old grooves of guilt and resentment and feel both my obligation and a childish/selfish desire to just not have to feel any of that at all.

I agree, there's generally always going to be some internal reaction when we feel like we have to do something that we don't necessarily want to. I kind of have a similar situation with my Mom too—minus the narcissistic Grandma. She (my mom) has this really peculiar learned helplessness thing going on where she always needs me or my sister to do stuff for her that she could easily manage on her own. I generally enforce boundaries around this because I can't be bothered with most of it, although I do give her a hand when she really does need it. Cool thing is that for the most part she's become a lot more independent (I think she's been doing some reading about these topics on her own lately) and really gives trying out things she thinks she can't do a good crack. This has taken a couple of years, however.

It is frustrating at times though, definitely, especially if she tries to send me on a guilt trip. But I see through that because I know that it's just her not being aware of how she can better express her needs to me. So you can work past that guilt or resentment by catching it early and just carrying on with your life... .with practice of course.

How do you think that you can really own those feelings instead of letting them control you sometimes?

[VitaminC]

Thank you, both.

And don't feel bad when you hit your limit and need to close yourself up. That's part of the process too. Try not to do it longer than you need to though.

That's a really good reminder about hitting my limit and recognizing that I have. It's often something I only notice when it's already upon me. Yes, I see where I need to be more mindful there and start noticing earlier.

I am now thinking that I don't know how to know how long is long enough to 'close myself up'.

What happened this time is that I got angry, then sad, then kind of maudlin and helpless, and then started to feel the need to create something. That's usually a sign for me that I'm entering an interesting emotional space. Then I got a bit excited about that and made some work, but then probably overstretched myself and put myself out there too much. I crashed a little bit as a result.

Somehow I need to slow things down and be more aware and less judgemental and controlling / directive over those pesky emotions of mine.

How do you think that you can really own those feelings instead of letting them control you sometimes?

I do not know. I spent ages thinking about this. And I don't know.

***

I spent some time reading about Schema Therapy. It interests me very much. I think that way the answer lies for me. Deeply held convictions and some unhealthy automatic coping modes. I can see it myself.

When I am in a certain frame of mind, I guess in some kind of minor crisis, I am insensible to any kindness from others and no longer remember or believe what I have learned along the way. I believe that no one truly loves anyone, we just need them. I go off into an existential angst and see every other way of looking at things as a deliberate belief, rather than an awareness of The Truth. Deliberate beliefs are fine, but deluded. So it seems to me. In another way, I know a bunch of stuff about neuroplasticity and see that it can't be so black & white as I make it. So then I get a bit stuck.

Keeping it small and local seems stupid and I have to extrapolate to the whole human condition! Even as I am doing it, it seems funny, but in a black sort of way.

Look, I'm just going to throw some confetti around the place. It seems to disappear, so won't make that much of a mess.   

 

[Grey Kitty]

That's a really good reminder about hitting my limit and recognizing that I have. It's often something I only notice when it's already upon me. Yes, I see where I need to be more mindful there and start noticing earlier.

I am now thinking that I don't know how to know how long is long enough to 'close myself up'.

What happened this time is that I got angry, then sad, then kind of maudlin and helpless, and then started to feel the need to create something. That's usually a sign for me that I'm entering an interesting emotional space. Then I got a bit excited about that and made some work, but then probably overstretched myself and put myself out there too much. I crashed a little bit as a result.

Somehow I need to slow things down and be more aware and less judgemental and controlling / directive over those pesky emotions of mine.

  You know, these lessons like recognizing your limits as you approach them rather than after you fell over the cliff... .or knowing you have been closed up hiding in some way that feels safe to you "long enough" are only learned through many attempts, most of which will miss the mark. But as you practice, you will find yourself not missing quite as badly, even if it is in the other direction from how you missed last time.

It is OK to laugh at yourself as you learn these lessons like stepping on a rake and having it hit you in the face again... .ask me how I know 

Mindfulness meditation practice may help you. It helped me a great deal.

[VitaminC]

 You know, these lessons ... .are only learned through many attempts, most of which will miss the mark. But as you practice, you will find yourself not missing quite as badly, even if it is in the other direction from how you missed last time.

Grey Kitty, you've done me a great service there by reminding me of this! I remember a conversation months ago with   fromheetoheal where a similar point was made, except we talked about it in terms of our emotions going off the rails and realising that was ok and paying more attention to how long it took us to get back to base camp. In other words, going off-road is ok as long as you find yourself back on the road in less time or having taken fewer stupid detours or had too many burgers in crappy burger joints along the way.

Ok, I am going to remember it this time. I really will try.  

It is OK to laugh at yourself as you learn these lessons like stepping on a rake and having it hit you in the face again... .ask me how I know  

  clunk, ouch.

Mindfulness meditation practice may help you. It helped me a great deal.

Right.