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Skills we were never taught
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A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
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Setting Boundaries
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Author Topic: at my wit's end  (Read 439 times)
PeteWitsend
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« on: December 27, 2016, 12:16:17 PM »

Hi All,

apologies for the long 3-part email, but I'm looking for some insights... .

I've been struggling with a troubled marriage for a few years now.  After feeling completely bewildered and beaten down after some recurring fights earlier this year that never seemed to end, I posted my story on some marriage forums, and some suggested it sounded like my wife was a pwBPD.  I read more about it (I had heard of BPD, but wasn't familiar with it), and was blown away by the fact that it seemed to line up with my wife's behavior to a "T" although she didn't really display the impulsive drinking/cheating/spending behavior, which is good, because those were all dealbreakers for me.  

I also talked to a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist, and he said it sounded like BPD, from the incidents I described.  For the record, I tried to focus on objectively odd or extreme things she did, to avoid any he said/she said bias while seeking help on this topic.  

I read the book "Walking on Eggshells" as recommended.  I also started seeing a therapist myself, which has helped, because I find I just can't take it sometimes, and my wife's texts/emails continuing fights while I was at work were really hurting my ability to focus.

ANYHOW... .my wife has a lot of issues with my mom.  We've been all over this issue, and I've done everything my wife has asked of me - short of cutting contact completely, which I think is wrong and refuse to do.  nor would I ever expect her to cut contact with her family.  My mom is really not present in our lives... .she lives on a different coast.  I speak with her rarely (weekly at best).  It's not like she lives with us, or visits every weekend.  

Notably, when my wife has an issue with something my mom said or did, she'll never call her to discuss, she'll just take it out on me, assume the worst about my mom's behavior or comments, and only contact my mom via text or email - which are notoriously bad for reaching personal understanding.  I've also caught my wife outright lying about things my mom did or said.  After some blowups, I'll go on my wife's phone and read the emails and texts for myself.  I've tried to validate wife's feelings, and encourage her to call my mom and talk about the issue herself so she can resolve it, but when pressed she'll refuse and make ultimatums, e.g. "I will NEVER speak with that woman again!"

My wife has also done some pretty extreme things:

- she's accused me of wanting to sleep with my mom (!) then admitted she was just upset by something a different family member said to her, which made her feel like "my whole family hated her"
-unprompted and during a rare quiet period in our marriage she went on my phone, and found an older text from my mom to my brother and i, which she ended by calling us "her beloved sons" ... .wife maintained calling us "beloved" was sick, unhealthy, inappropriate and started sending me text messages about moms who were in incestual relationships with their sons.
- claimed at my son's 1st bday dinner my mom lifted her skirt and flashed the table (I think I would have remembered that)... .I even asked a few people present if they remembered my mom doing that - was I going crazy? - and they all said no.

 my wife also seems threatened by women/coworkers of mine, accused me of working long hours to spend time with them, etc. but admitted she has no reason to be suspicious.  I actually even started avoiding happy hours with colleagues because of this.  

The lies and mis-characterizations make validating my wife's feelings extremely difficult.  Also fights about my mom tend to get poisonous in a hurry, and oddly enough, my wife brings them up ALL THE TIME, which seems to be the opposite of what one would do if they valued marital happiness.  

We've seen two marriage counselors who both told my wife the same thing: you husband is on your side.  His mom may be a little insensitive, but sounds like he's made every effort to address your concerns with her.  His mom is not there... .physically or otherwise, and you need to find healthy ways to deal with your feelings and stop poisoning your relationship by bringing her into it.  

This is the background... .
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PeteWitsend
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2016, 12:18:01 PM »

Which brings me to the current issues that have me ready to throw in the towel.  

Recently... .my mom & her fiancee sent my wife a vacuum cleaner for xmas.  We opened the package a week before the holiday, and my wife was instantly upset by it.  I told her I agreed it was an insensitive gift, and we could return it and she should get something else.  

At the time, this Seemed to be a minor issue because honestly since October, things had been better between her and my mom; at my wife's request (which I dutifully relayed to my mom), my mom started calling her and talking to her more regularly (though my wife NEVER takes the initiative to call my mom herself), and things seemed to be resolved.  Indeed the day after we open the vacuum, wife tells me she thinks it was actually a good gift (!), and my mom clearly understands as a housewife, a lightweight vacuum like that is helpful, and it was good quality, etc. Great!  

Then the weekend comes... .Sunday afternoon, I'm helping out with the household chores, folding clothes, when my wife - knowing my mom was right then visiting my grandfather, her dad, who was due to have open heart surgery and in bad shape physically and they were on their way to the hospital - starts shooting off extremely hostile text messages to my mom, saying the vacuum was a horrible, manipulative, passive aggressive gift, including a link to an article online that claims if you send someone a vacuum it shows you hate them, and along with some sarcastic comments about how she loves my mom, only because she has to (family connections).

... .I see the texts much later (as I said, we were busy around the house & then put kids to bed), and immediately got upset.  I tried to avoid talking about it because it was 10 PM on a Sunday night and I had to be up at 5am for work, but I could tell my wife was staring at me to read my expression, and pry.  FInally she just asked if I saw the texts and when I said "I don't want to deal with this or talk about it right now" she - took it to 11... .started screaming "I KNEW IT, YOU'RE ALWAYS ON YOUR MOM'S SIDE.  I'M ALWAYS THE BAD GUY.  YOU WANT TO BLAME ME FOR YOUR MOM SENDING THAT GIFT AND MAKE THIS ALL MY FAULT." ... .and storms out of our bedroom.

By this time, I'm telling myself "I can't believe this is happening again, I can't believe this is happening again... .leave, leave, leave, get your things and leave." but I pull it together, go downstairs, talk about it with my wife, tell her I love her, it's okay, I'm not mad about the text messages & agree the vacuum was a bad gift.  Wife actually says she's sorry she sent the texts and feels bad about it, and wishes she hadn't sent them.  Then she tells me she's happy I came downstairs, it shows I care about her.  I tell her its okay.  I'm sure my mom would understand, and if she feels bad about sending the texts, she can call my mom to talk about it, but if she didn't want to it was okay, I wasn't upset with her.  We go to bed hugging, and all is good, right?

Next morning, she's cold to me, and I sense right away it's not going to be over.  Before I leave for work, she says she can't believe I told her she needs to apologize to my mom.  I tell her she misunderstood, I don't think that, and I don't want her to.  She seems reassured... .

Later in the day, I'm at work, and I start getting hostile text msgs from wife about how she FINALLY decided to watch a DVD my mom got her for xmas two years before , and how evil and manipulative it was, (my wife is from Eastern Europe; movie was an old flick about an Eastern European woman coming to Paris and falling in love with the west... .Ninotchka if you're curious).  Then she sends me a further bunch of messages saying my mom will never see our kids again (she calls them "her" kids at times like this), and she'll just have to get used to the fact that her husband will never see her side, and always side with his mother.

We've now fought almost every day since then - two weeks ago.  When she's upset about this, we'll talk - for hours if need be - at night when I get home from work.  We always go to bed okay, but then the next day, it's like she hits the reset button.  

Christmas weekend was a nightmare.  Whenever I called my family members to say Merry Christmas, she'd break out crying, saying I didn't want to spend time with my "real" family, etc. scream at me, etc. etc.  
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PeteWitsend
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2016, 12:22:22 PM »

The strangest moment was at end of Xmas day.  after we put the kids to bed, and were drinking tea, she told me she doesn't know whats wrong with her, she can't control her emotions, and she knows I'm a good husband and that I haven't done anything wrong, but just can't get over it or control herself.

She admits that she sent the texts to my mom about the vacuum after being goaded by a friend of hers.  This "friend" is a complete trainwreck of a person, has a horrible marriage of her own & my wife's own parents have warned her to keep away from. 

I told my wife I think she needs some counseling to learn to deal with her emotions.  I'm careful to say I don't think she's sick or anything, just that she has to "take the edge off" so to speak in her responses to things.  I also agree that any person would find some of the same things annoying my wife does, but would not react the way she does, by sobbing, screaming, storming out of the room, etc. 

She tells me just to remind her when she's over reacting next time, and my being able to remain calm helps her. 

Of course... day after xmas, she wakes up like nothing changed, is hostile, upset my mom sent us a couple xmas pics that morning of her & the rest of my family because that shows my mom won't take responsibility for sending her that vacuum cleaner.  And the fact that I didn't tell my mom this, shows I'm okay with it, I'm on my mom's side, etc.

AAAAH! 

I can't keep doing this.  I love her, but I just can't live like this.  At this point, the only thing keeping me from moving out is the fact that we have young kids, and I am afraid how she'll behave during a separation/divorce & do something that could harm them.   

I've tried to get her to see a counselor (while being careful to say she's okay, I love her, I just think she needs someone else to talk to sometimes).  she'll agree, then refuse the next day. 

I honestly don't understand how she can ignore time I spend with her talking about her troubles, and then the next day attack me all over again and claim I don't care, don't love her, etc.  it's pushing me away, and honestly seems like she's trying to do so, just because then she can claim she was right, I never loved her, love my mom more, etc.  it's bizarre and self-destructive. 

sigh... .
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statsattack
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2016, 04:27:56 PM »

You need to speak with a divorce attorney because if you aren't carful she will screw you over in divorce.

Don't let her pick out her own counselor make sure they get BPD
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PeteWitsend
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2016, 05:37:40 PM »

You need to speak with a divorce attorney because if you aren't carful she will screw you over in divorce.

Don't let her pick out her own counselor make sure they get BPD

thanks, but I'm not too concerned about that just yet.  (I am an attorney myself)  I'm also the primary breadwinner (by a lot) and have a successful career so I could survive a bad divorce decree (assuming it worked out in her defense).  And honestly if she were to make that move, it would almost be a relief.

I'd honestly like to make this work out, but I don't know what approach to take to get her to see a counselor/therapist.  It's sort of reassuring she has moments where she admits I've been a good husband, and she knows I haven't done anything wrong, but she just can't control her emotions.  so I'm not going crazy as it turns out.  but we're looking at an occasional moment of calm, among days of emotional turmoil.  even when times are good, it's like two good weeks (at most) before 3-4 days of fighting, false resolutions, and her re-starting arguments in the morning or via text while I'm at work.

Dealing with her issues has been incredibly taxing on me; even again this morning we woke up and she was cold, giving monosyllabic responses, sitting on her phone texting people when I left, ignoring the kids.  Later on after getting ignored all day, I called her because I received some sort of cryptic text messages, and when I asked her why she seemed upset this morning, she said she wasn't upset, I was upset and she was the one trying to talk to me (!)  

to be more direct, these are my specific questions, or issues I'd like to get others' feedback about:

1) can it ever get better? if not normal, at least tolerable?  I know all couples fight and have disagreements, but ours get toxic in a hurry, and she immediately starts using superlatives and other unhelpful terms to attack me if we get in a quarrel; no reasoning or resolution possible
2) are there ways to get a pwBPD to commit to therapy?  I've read the advice to never tell a pwBPD your suspicion for various reasons, so I've avoided being direct; I have said to her "I love you but you're overreacting to some of these issues, it's affecting both of us negatively, and I think you need some help.  and I'm committed to whatever you feel you need."
3) if she does commit to treatment, any advice on the sort of therapist to direct her to?  it seems like DBT was recommended.
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statsattack
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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2016, 05:52:30 PM »

I am a I banker so I understand due diligence. Dbt is the most common practice for those with BPD.

Reach out to as many psychologists as you can see who specializes in BPD and dbt. The biggest thing is finding someone your wife can connect with. End of day you need to trust this person to save your marriage.

Shoot me a dm because not sure how personal can get on this board.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 04:32:36 AM »

Welcome to this board. I think the tools and lessons for communication and dealing with conflict are helpful- no matter what course your marriage takes. Since you indicate you wish to try to make things better- and for those who have done this work- posting on the improving board may result in some replies from those who have walked this path.

One of the most helpful pieces of information for me is the Karpman drama triangle. It is a classic model to explain the dynamics of dysfunctional relationships. It includes the tendency to triangulate with others - like your wife is doing with her friend- to solicit support for their point of view.

The issue with your mother is being played out on this triangle. Your wife is taking "victim" perspective. From my own experience with pw BPD, "victim" seems to be the preferred position. Someone who feels like a victim feels that their issues are the result of someone or something else, and as "victim" they do not see themselves as responsible for what happened. Partners of pwBPD may also feel like victims at time, but I think it is important to not present ourselves to the pwBPD as a victim of their behavior- even if there are genuine hurts- because looking at them to validate this doesn't work very well if they are feeling like a victim too.

Your wife is perceiving your mother as persecutor and wants you to step in as rescuer - to take her side against your mother. Good for you for sticking up for your boundaries. Cutting off communication with your mother won't solve the tendency to play out dysfunction on the triangle- and it will hurt your mother's feelings very much. But be careful not to play these roles out with your wife as it is a dysfunctional way to relate.

I don't know how much you wish to involve your mother in these issues. In general, bringing in a third party ( who is not a professional) may not be helpful. However, if your mother is concerned about the situation and wants to relate better to your wife- sharing the information about relationship tools here can help her to not take your wife's behavior personally or be reactive to her when she acts out. In general- I think it is important to maintain our relationships with people we care about, and also are a support to us, but be careful not to triangulate yourself.
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PeteWitsend
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2016, 03:51:33 PM »

thanks, @notwendy,

I did read about the Karpman triangle yesterday.  I think it was very illuminating.  I need to find a way to move out of the protector role it sounds like, which I have not been able to do to date.

I actually told my mom about my suspicions about my wife's behavior earlier in the year, after my wife sent her some particularly heated, and unsolicited text messages out of the blue.  After the recent flare-up I called my mom and she said she was glad I had told her not to take these things personally, and she was going to simply not reply.

For now, I get the sense this bad period is mostly over.  *fingers crossed*  I told my mom to avoid any messages/emails or calls to my wife for the time being, and to reach out to me at work if she wanted to call.  she said she didn't want to cause any problems for us, and understood if a break was needed.

I know this is only a temporary fix; I am not going to cut off contact with my mom, and I want her to have a relationship with our kids.  I am not sure how to make this work long term, unless my wife commits to therapy. 

The easiest way to handle visits would be for my mom to stay in a hotel and I take kids to see her/spend time there without my wife when she's in town.  However, I don't feel that my wife would accept that approach any differently than she would a regular visit.  If she could accept reasonable boundaries and what not, I don't think we'd be in this mess in the first place.

I feel like I can generally handle the wife's BPD issues when they manifest themselves most of the time.  It's tiresome and draining, but generally it's still only a few days of fights in a couple good weeks.  But when the fights involve something my mom said or did, they just become too much for me to handle. 
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statsattack
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2016, 09:05:17 PM »

Set boundaries if you don't you will get screwed over
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Notwendy
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2016, 09:09:24 AM »

Your mother sounds like a wise and patient person. I think her stand to be non-reactive to your wife and not take her personally is a good one.

From my own experience with a BPD mom, it is likely your wife is not going to be happy about any relationship with your mother. However, I also think this relationship has great value to both of you- neither of you would benefit by cutting it off. So, regardless of your wife's feelings, you would need to stand up for it.

Your wife may not be happy about you having a relationship with/to anything or anyone that isn't to her liking. It could be a close friendship or hobby. The tendency for those of us in these situations is to narrow our worlds according to their moods, but this is not a solution. It may ease the tension in the moment but the discontent remains, and then we become isolated. In addition it would really hurt your mother.

This is a boundary that may be difficult to maintain, she may resist it, but the response is to be firm. Think about if she was a 4 year old demanding to eat cookies for dinner. We want what we want- and she may want you to not see your mother. But is the solution to the 4 year old's demands to ease their frustration by giving them cookies, or is it to say "no cookies for dinner" and let them deal with the frustration. Yes, they will tantrum. Your wife may be upset, but if you truly believe that your relationship with your mother is important, then you will need to take a stand for it.

I think it is OK to have your own personal relationship with your mother, so long as you do not triangulate with her. There isn't anything wrong with having your own relationship with anyone - with the limits of fidelity to your marriage of course. You may choose to speak to your mother when you are at work or away from the home so you can speak freely. I was in a similar triangle with my father, ( as an adult daughter ). If I called him at home, my mother would listen in to our phone calls. Although we didn't talk about her behind her back, I felt he could be more "himself" with me if we spoke when she wasn't listening.

If your mother visits, staying in a hotel is a good idea. I even stay at a hotel when visiting BPD mom sometimes. Having guests stresses her out- she likes control of her own space. I also do better on visits when I can be alone for a bit. It is a form of self care. I think it will help your wife to have control over her space and her choice to see your mother or not. You can invite her to visit mom with you, and she then has the choice. She may not like it when mom visits , but this takes her having to interact with your mother out of the situation if she doesn't want to.  The kids may even like to have a "sleep over" with your mother on their own while you and your wife have some time together- which may appeal to your wife.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2016, 11:01:28 AM »

Set boundaries if you don't you will get screwed over

I can completely relate to this. However I want to reword this as well.

Boundaries are not about controlling the other person. We can't control that.

Boundaries are about our values and our decisions. If something is valuable to us, then we need to have boundaries about that. For instance if a relationship with our parent is important to us, then we need to maintain it whether anyone else likes it our not.

If we decide to give it up - when we don't want to- just because someone else doesn't like it, then we betray ourselves. We give up something we care about- because we put someone else's feelings before that relationship. When we do this- we choose to screw ourselves over.
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PeteWitsend
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 11:23:26 PM »

I've been reading more about these things, and have a question: what are some ways to avoid getting pinned into a role in the Karpman Triangle?

now I can recognize when a fight or situation like that is about to happen now, but how can I avoid getting pinned into a role (typically as my wife's rescuer, when she had imagined my mom is trying to persecute her) when these fights start? it's hard because she doesn't present a lot of options to find common ground, or validate her feelings since she presents it as an ultimatum: cut contact with your mom, or at least call her up and verbally beat her up for treating my wife badly.

I feel put in the position of either attacking my mom, or incurring my wife's anger.  If I admit my mom did something insensitive or admit how I can understand why my wife would take it that way, I can't seem to then say "but I'm not going to hate my mom and shun her because of this"

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