Moving through the stages of detachment

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I wasn't sure if this would be best on the Personal Inventory board or the detaching board.

Here lately, I have been pondering the steps of detachment and reading on the forums a lot more. A couple of things have come up for me that I want to get off my chest.

1. I have spent a lot of time trying NOT to be the person that he painted me out to be. For example, one of the things that he said at one point was that he was afraid I would keep the kids from him. Now, I am keeping the kids from him as much as I can while still trying to figure out how to let him hang out with them. I am keeping the kids from him because of the fact that he sucks as a parent and it takes several days after the kids see him to get them back to a place of being stable. He sets the kids off like crazy. He is very invalidating with them. Any idea they come up with, he finds a way to shoot it down. It feels like he is deliberately sabotaging his relationship with the kids so that I have no choice but to limit his contact with him. Then, he gets to say, "See, she won't let me see the kids. I want to see them and I want to hang out with them but she won't let me." Forget the fact that the kids don't want to see him. When he lets a 7 year old boss him around and refuses to act like a parent, what else am I supposed to do?

2. I am seriously considering throwing him under the bus so to speak. He has been putting me off for over a year about job stuff and financial stuff. Actually, he has been putting me off longer than that about our relationship. Three years ago, he started going to SA meetings and told me that the recommendation was to wait a year before making any decisions about the relationship. I bought it. I spent some time trying to find help and worked a bit with COSA. Then I worked with a trauma coach. Even when I water things down, people are appalled at the stuff that he has done to me. The more time goes on, the more I am becoming appalled at it too. As I process this stuff, the pain is almost unbearable at times.

He lost his job last year and has told me that he has been looking for work. He still does not have a job. After his unemployment ran out, he sold a bunch of his music gear. After that, he borrowed money from his mom. He is still not reliable. It was easy for me to let him put me off because he has never been without a job for very long in all of our years together. In all our years together, he stayed employed and was reliable. Nothing has changed in his situation. He is still living rent free with a guy that is a registered sex offender.

A couple of months ago, he was meeting up with some woman and lying about it. He had no reason to lie as we are not together. I could tell that he was up to something because of how he was acting. When he is chasing somebody, he turns into a jerk and his grumpiness levels escalate. He and I agreed to try an open relationship at one point. The agreement was that we had to let each other know what was going on. He spoke directly with 2 of the 3 people that I was with.

He never let me talk to any of the people that he was seriously interested in. I have no idea how many women/men he chased during all of that. I know that he was still chasing people a month or two ago. He will say that he isn't and then later admit that he was. I have no idea the numbers or the details. He would try to throw the fact that I was dating somebody for a while in my face. The person that I dated for a year talked to him directly. The three of us even went out to dinner together. I dated ONE person and was completely honest about it. I didn't give him any details. I tried to be very respectful of him and his feelings. Once that relationship ended, I did NOT go seeking anybody else. I did not want anybody else. Ex tried to act like that was his cue to start being nice and acting like nothing ever happened. He kept bringing up things like where we stand and fishing for me to say that there was still hope. I get conflicted at times because he gets crabby when I tell him that there is no hope. Things between us are over and done. I have skirted things by saying stuff like, "As things stand right now, there is no hope for us to be anything more than coparents and friends."

I did get to talk to several of the ladies he was chasing because I went snooping. I know that was a bad choice on my part. I was trying to prove to myself that I wasn't crazy and in the process did things that were absolutely messed up. I saw some of the correspondence that he had with some of those women. He told them that I was a raging b***h when the kids weren't around. He told them that I refused to have sex with him. The description that he gave of me was out of a BPD book. It sounded a lot like how many of the men here describe their wives. It was earth shattering to hear that he was telling women that I wouldn't have sex with him when he and I had just been intimate a day or two prior. It was horrible to hear him say that because he had told me that I wanted it too much and that he just couldn't keep up with me. Half the time, he couldn't even get things to work. Towards the end, the only way that I could get him excited was to talk about other men. It was horrible and demoralizing yet I did it because I didn't want him to be able to say, "My wife won't have sex with me any more." I was trying so hard to prove to him and myself that I wasn't the person that he was trying to paint me out to be.

It was horrible to see that he was telling them I didn't say "I love you" any more. Anybody that knows me knows how big of a bunch of hogwash that is. I am the kind of person that probably says "I love you" too much. But, it was probably because I didn't wake up and tell him before he left one day. I had to be so friggin' vigilant to prove that none of that stuff was true. I really did feel like I was crazy.

The longer I am away from things, the easier it is to see how much he was projecting onto me. The longer I am out, the easier it is to see that, yes, some of my behavior was totally messed up. At the same time, how is one supposed to feel and act when their husband of so many years says, "Let's see other people." and then proceeds to push me to be with somebody else. Even if none of the other stuff happened, it is unforgiveable that I sat in a bathtub crying and telling him that I couldn't go through with meeting this guy. Instead of saying that I shouldn't or that it was okay if I didn't, he rubbed my back and comforted me and told me something along the lines of, "It will be okay. You should do it. You will have fun."

I feel like I am slowly moving to the stage of creative action where I am having ideas bubble up that I know will hurt him and make his life difficult. Instead of avoiding things to protect him, I am trying to work up the courage to do things to protect myself. It feels like there are no good choices where I can protect all parties involved. It feels weird to be considering things that will more or less confirm all of the things that he has said. I wonder if he said those things because he knew that the only way I would be able to protect myself is to do those very things. By saying that I would do x, y, or z, he was getting me to promise not to do them and now that I am considering doing them I feel like I am confirming the stuff he said. The main things are getting the courts involved and limiting his time with the kids if at all possible. Right now, there are no legal protections in place. I am trying to work up the nerve to get the courts involved so that I can be as free of him as I can possibly be. I am starting to look forward to the day when things are more predictable and I can be in a relationship without having so much weirdness. I know that will never be possible with him.

I brought up legal stuff with him the other day and he got uncomfortable and tried to encourage me not to because he doesn't have any money, the guy always gets screwed, and he will get a job soon so he can get insurance for me and the kids. I told him that I want to move on and free myself up to be in a relationship with somebody where I am not worried and thinking, "If I mess up or do something wrong, he is going to go looking for somebody else." I want certainty. I have finally accepted that I am not going to get that with him. Even during the years when things were "good", I still had this fear that I had to be perfect or he would go back to looking at porn. Early in our marriage (year 2 or 3), he lost a job because of looking at porn at work. I tried my best to fulfill his needs. I gave until I could give no more and then I lost it.

Even now, he is still focused on himself. I have tried to approach him about stuff with the kids or other stuff. I have tried to tell him how stressful it is for me to juggle two part time jobs, 4 kids, the finances, and everything else. His response is, "This isn't easy for me either." Or, he says stuff like, "I can't make people hire me." Or, he has said stuff like, "Oh, you are strong, you will get through it." It seems like he doesn't care about how our kids are being taken care of or how we are all struggling to make sense of how he has changed in the last couple of years.

When I told him that I did not want him to come over on Christmas Day, he tried to tell me, "That's not fair." For a minute, I thought about changing my mind. Instead, I told him, "It isn't fair that I have to work two jobs, take care of the kids, juggle the finances, and keep up with everything on my own with little or no assistance from you. It isn't fair that I get no time to myself while you sit over there playing your games and doing whatever it is that you do. When I do give you time with the kids, you text me and bug me and I usually come home to chaos." He took the kids Christmas shopping before Christmas. I tried to use that as an opportunity to get a few hours to myself after work. He had to friggin' text me and bug me. I try to give him time with the kids but he doesn't seem to care about the kids. He only seems to care about what I am doing or not doing.

I feel like I am on the verge of a big shift and it is scary and I need words of wisdom or encouragement or even hear other people's stories. And, I need to get this stuff out. It sometimes feels like it is going to swallow me. 

[vortex of confusion]

I wasn't sure if this would be best on the Personal Inventory board or the detaching board.

Here lately, I have been pondering the steps of detachment and reading on the forums a lot more. A couple of things have come up for me that I want to get off my chest.

1. I have spent a lot of time trying NOT to be the person that he painted me out to be. For example, one of the things that he said at one point was that he was afraid I would keep the kids from him. Now, I am keeping the kids from him as much as I can while still trying to figure out how to let him hang out with them. I am keeping the kids from him because of the fact that he sucks as a parent and it takes several days after the kids see him to get them back to a place of being stable. He sets the kids off like crazy. He is very invalidating with them. Any idea they come up with, he finds a way to shoot it down. It feels like he is deliberately sabotaging his relationship with the kids so that I have no choice but to limit his contact with him. Then, he gets to say, "See, she won't let me see the kids. I want to see them and I want to hang out with them but she won't let me." Forget the fact that the kids don't want to see him. When he lets a 7 year old boss him around and refuses to act like a parent, what else am I supposed to do?

2. I am seriously considering throwing him under the bus so to speak. He has been putting me off for over a year about job stuff and financial stuff. Actually, he has been putting me off longer than that about our relationship. Three years ago, he started going to SA meetings and told me that the recommendation was to wait a year before making any decisions about the relationship. I bought it. I spent some time trying to find help and worked a bit with COSA. Then I worked with a trauma coach. Even when I water things down, people are appalled at the stuff that he has done to me. The more time goes on, the more I am becoming appalled at it too. As I process this stuff, the pain is almost unbearable at times.

He lost his job last year and has told me that he has been looking for work. He still does not have a job. After his unemployment ran out, he sold a bunch of his music gear. After that, he borrowed money from his mom. He is still not reliable. It was easy for me to let him put me off because he has never been without a job for very long in all of our years together. In all our years together, he stayed employed and was reliable. Nothing has changed in his situation. He is still living rent free with a guy that is a registered sex offender.

A couple of months ago, he was meeting up with some woman and lying about it. He had no reason to lie as we are not together. I could tell that he was up to something because of how he was acting. When he is chasing somebody, he turns into a jerk and his grumpiness levels escalate. He and I agreed to try an open relationship at one point. The agreement was that we had to let each other know what was going on. He spoke directly with 2 of the 3 people that I was with.

He never let me talk to any of the people that he was seriously interested in. I have no idea how many women/men he chased during all of that. I know that he was still chasing people a month or two ago. He will say that he isn't and then later admit that he was. I have no idea the numbers or the details. He would try to throw the fact that I was dating somebody for a while in my face. The person that I dated for a year talked to him directly. The three of us even went out to dinner together. I dated ONE person and was completely honest about it. I didn't give him any details. I tried to be very respectful of him and his feelings. Once that relationship ended, I did NOT go seeking anybody else. I did not want anybody else. Ex tried to act like that was his cue to start being nice and acting like nothing ever happened. He kept bringing up things like where we stand and fishing for me to say that there was still hope. I get conflicted at times because he gets crabby when I tell him that there is no hope. Things between us are over and done. I have skirted things by saying stuff like, "As things stand right now, there is no hope for us to be anything more than coparents and friends."

I did get to talk to several of the ladies he was chasing because I went snooping. I know that was a bad choice on my part. I was trying to prove to myself that I wasn't crazy and in the process did things that were absolutely messed up. I saw some of the correspondence that he had with some of those women. He told them that I was a raging b***h when the kids weren't around. He told them that I refused to have sex with him. The description that he gave of me was out of a BPD book. It sounded a lot like how many of the men here describe their wives. It was earth shattering to hear that he was telling women that I wouldn't have sex with him when he and I had just been intimate a day or two prior. It was horrible to hear him say that because he had told me that I wanted it too much and that he just couldn't keep up with me. Half the time, he couldn't even get things to work. Towards the end, the only way that I could get him excited was to talk about other men. It was horrible and demoralizing yet I did it because I didn't want him to be able to say, "My wife won't have sex with me any more." I was trying so hard to prove to him and myself that I wasn't the person that he was trying to paint me out to be.

It was horrible to see that he was telling them I didn't say "I love you" any more. Anybody that knows me knows how big of a bunch of hogwash that is. I am the kind of person that probably says "I love you" too much. But, it was probably because I didn't wake up and tell him before he left one day. I had to be so friggin' vigilant to prove that none of that stuff was true. I really did feel like I was crazy.

The longer I am away from things, the easier it is to see how much he was projecting onto me. The longer I am out, the easier it is to see that, yes, some of my behavior was totally messed up. At the same time, how is one supposed to feel and act when their husband of so many years says, "Let's see other people." and then proceeds to push me to be with somebody else. Even if none of the other stuff happened, it is unforgiveable that I sat in a bathtub crying and telling him that I couldn't go through with meeting this guy. Instead of saying that I shouldn't or that it was okay if I didn't, he rubbed my back and comforted me and told me something along the lines of, "It will be okay. You should do it. You will have fun."

I feel like I am slowly moving to the stage of creative action where I am having ideas bubble up that I know will hurt him and make his life difficult. Instead of avoiding things to protect him, I am trying to work up the courage to do things to protect myself. It feels like there are no good choices where I can protect all parties involved. It feels weird to be considering things that will more or less confirm all of the things that he has said. I wonder if he said those things because he knew that the only way I would be able to protect myself is to do those very things. By saying that I would do x, y, or z, he was getting me to promise not to do them and now that I am considering doing them I feel like I am confirming the stuff he said. The main things are getting the courts involved and limiting his time with the kids if at all possible. Right now, there are no legal protections in place. I am trying to work up the nerve to get the courts involved so that I can be as free of him as I can possibly be. I am starting to look forward to the day when things are more predictable and I can be in a relationship without having so much weirdness. I know that will never be possible with him.

I brought up legal stuff with him the other day and he got uncomfortable and tried to encourage me not to because he doesn't have any money, the guy always gets screwed, and he will get a job soon so he can get insurance for me and the kids. I told him that I want to move on and free myself up to be in a relationship with somebody where I am not worried and thinking, "If I mess up or do something wrong, he is going to go looking for somebody else." I want certainty. I have finally accepted that I am not going to get that with him. Even during the years when things were "good", I still had this fear that I had to be perfect or he would go back to looking at porn. Early in our marriage (year 2 or 3), he lost a job because of looking at porn at work. I tried my best to fulfill his needs. I gave until I could give no more and then I lost it.

Even now, he is still focused on himself. I have tried to approach him about stuff with the kids or other stuff. I have tried to tell him how stressful it is for me to juggle two part time jobs, 4 kids, the finances, and everything else. His response is, "This isn't easy for me either." Or, he says stuff like, "I can't make people hire me." Or, he has said stuff like, "Oh, you are strong, you will get through it." It seems like he doesn't care about how our kids are being taken care of or how we are all struggling to make sense of how he has changed in the last couple of years.

When I told him that I did not want him to come over on Christmas Day, he tried to tell me, "That's not fair." For a minute, I thought about changing my mind. Instead, I told him, "It isn't fair that I have to work two jobs, take care of the kids, juggle the finances, and keep up with everything on my own with little or no assistance from you. It isn't fair that I get no time to myself while you sit over there playing your games and doing whatever it is that you do. When I do give you time with the kids, you text me and bug me and I usually come home to chaos." He took the kids Christmas shopping before Christmas. I tried to use that as an opportunity to get a few hours to myself after work. He had to friggin' text me and bug me. I try to give him time with the kids but he doesn't seem to care about the kids. He only seems to care about what I am doing or not doing.

I feel like I am on the verge of a big shift and it is scary and I need words of wisdom or encouragement or even hear other people's stories. And, I need to get this stuff out. It sometimes feels like it is going to swallow me. 

[lovenature]

Look after YOU and your CHILDREN, keep going; the only way out is through, while change can be scary it can also be wonderful.

[jhkbuzz]

That it a pretty intense bag of "stuff" - it sounds like you are slowly working through it all. Specifically, it sounds like you are slowly coming out of the FOG and emotionally separating yourself from him - what is "his" stuff and what is "your" stuff.

If I could give you any advice, it would be to stop - finally and irrevocably STOP - allowing him to "define" who you are. It sounds like you've been having mental battles about this for a long time. If you allow a mentally ill person to define who you are you will follow him down his rabbit hole of darkness and despair.

As I read your post, I am struck by how emotionally manipulative he is. Work on recognizing this and stopping (within yourself) your reactions to this dynamic. He is no longer your life partner; he is someone you need to guard yourself against - no matter how many "positive" qualities he may have. His life, his concerns, his "stuff" is his alone and no longer needs to take up your mental space. Don't worry about what he says (regarding the kids); document, document, document, and make decisions that are in the best interests of you and your children.

Actually, your focus needs to be on you, first, and your kids second. (And I don't say that lightly; I'm a fierce mama-bear, but I also recognize that the best way to care for your children is to care for yourself).

Therapy is incredibly useful in uncovering the "whys" of your life - why you became involved with an unstable partner; why you allowed them to define who you are as a human being; why you struggle to detach - all of it. Have you considered it?

[vortex of confusion]

while change can be scary it can also be wonderful.

Thanks for the encouragement!

So far, all of the changes we have experienced have been wonderful. Our house is so much more peaceful. They rarely talk about missing dad. Most of the time, they are glad he is gone. Several of them don't want him to see him often, if at all. He wants to see them more but I am not too keen on that idea. I am really getting to a point where I want to keep him from the kids as much as possible. If he wants to complain about it, he can take me to court and explain to a judge why he doesn't have a job and why his kids don't want to see him. Let him explain to a judge why he pressured his wife to have sex with another man and then wanted details. Let him explain his behavior to a judge and try to prove to a judge that he is a fit parent that should have regular visits with his kids.

[vortex of confusion]

If I could give you any advice, it would be to stop - finally and irrevocably STOP - allowing him to "define" who you are. It sounds like you've been having mental battles about this for a long time. If you allow a mentally ill person to define who you are you will follow them down their rabbit hole of darkness and despair.

I have definitely been having mental battles over this for a while. I had no idea that he was mentally ill. I had no idea that there was anything wrong with him at all. It was easy for him to paint me out a certain way because he was the perfect guy from the perfect family and I was the one that came from a long line of crazy. I thought he was sweet and wonderful and normal.

Therapy is incredibly useful in uncovering the "whys" of your life - why you became involved with an unstable partner; why you allowed them to define who you are as a human being; why you struggle to detach - all of it. Have you considered it?

I have considered it. I know why I became involved with ex. He appeared to be stable and gentle and was pretty much everything that the men in my life were not. He was not some big macho dude that picked fights or went to jail. I know exactly why I chose ex.

I am not sure why I allowed him to define me. Actually, I have a few clues about that. It didn't start out that way. It started out that I was pretty headstrong and stubborn and knew exactly who I was and what I wanted. I worked and I had kids and life was wonderful. I started letting him define me after so many years in isolation. There was a period of quite a few years where I didn't go anywhere or do anything without him or the kids. If I got a babysitter, it was so he and I could go out. If I needed something from the store, he went for me. I went to ONE mother's night out and he lectured me about being home on time, etc. That was my first time out without the kids in a whole lot of years and he acted like I was going to stay out all night, drink, or do something stupid.

I have thought about counseling. I don't have insurance. And, I am still very hesitant. I found a trauma coach that was willing to work with me for free. She ended up reporting me to social services for neglectful supervision because I left my kids with their dad. Social services investigated and closed the case. It was a horrible experience for me and the kids. I had complete strangers sit in my living room and ask, ":)id your husband force you to have sex with other men?" And, the kids didn't understand what dad could have done to warrant us being investigated. The charges were something like neglectful supervision because I was leaving them with a hypersexual male with anger issues.

That was such a horrible experience for me and it has me very reluctant to seek a counselor. I know my kids are safe. I limit their time with their dad. My neighbor knows the situation and the kids and I can go over there if we need anything. My family lives across the way and can be here in less than 5 minutes depending on traffic.

My kids are confused about some things because there are times when it looks like I am being a jerk for no good reason. All they know is that dad can be grumpy and difficult to deal with. They see him as a big kid rather than a reliable parent.

Sometimes, just looking at him takes me back to those places where he is encouraging me to be with somebody else. It takes me back to the times when he flipped out because he saw that I had sent another man a questionable picture of myself. He could take pictures of me and send them to others and sit with me and encourage me to send it to somebody else. I could NOT take a picture of myself and send it to somebody else or he would get pissed if he found out.

It is difficult to be around him for a whole lot of reasons. I want to talk to a counselor. I don't want to expose my kids to any more crap than they have already had to endure. I don't ever want them to find out what went on behind closed doors between me and their dad. I would be completely mortified if my kids ever found out any of this stuff.

I am hoping to find a way out of this that allows me to keep a lot of stuff completely quiet. If I have to use stuff to manipulate him into staying away and giving me and the girls space, I will. I can't stand the idea of sitting in front of somebody and telling them this stuff. I can type it here because it is completely anonymous and I can hide behind the comfort of my keyboard. Nobody can see me crying and falling apart as I type this stuff. I can only handle dealing with this stuff in small doses. When I was doing phone sessions with the coach, there were times when I could barely function after talking to her. I have to function. I have 4 kids that rely on me for everything. I have to be able to work and care for them. I am a very practical person.

[GaGrl]

I have heard you become stronger and stronger over the past few years... .way to go!

One point as you move toward the legal side of your situation... .the fact that your ex lives with a registered sex offender is going to severely limit anything the court allows in terms of contact and custody.

[KateCat]

I had to pop into your thread too, vortex, after following your journey here for some time. And wondering why a dynamic, intelligent and energetic woman was seemingly stuck at a particular stage of her evolution.

But I find it easy to understand now that you fear loss of privacy if you initiate a divorce action. Would it be possible for you to have a few sessions both with a counselor and with two or three attorneys you "interview" in order to explore very specifically ways to minimize loss of privacy while freeing yourself from a marriage that does seem to be over?

Sometimes family/divorce courts can offer additional levels of privacy and address protection to spouses who have been abused, I believe. If you were able to make contact initially with a court-related domestic violence advocate you might learn of these practices. 

[vortex of confusion]

One point as you move toward the legal side of your situation... .the fact that your ex lives with a registered sex offender is going to severely limit anything the court allows in terms of contact and custody.

Exactly! I don't think anybody would find fault with the fact that I only allow him to visit the kids at our house. He can take them shopping or on outings if he wants but they are not allowed to go anywhere near the place he lives. A lot people keep telling me that I am still being too nice to him.

[vortex of confusion]

But I find it easy to understand now that you fear loss of privacy if you initiate a divorce action.

I am so afraid of having to tell my story to people. I can't do it right now given how the coach reacted to what I told her. I don't want to have to sign my name on a document that spells this stuff out. Once it is taken into the legal system, it is a matter of public record. My preference would be to find a way to get him to agree to stuff without having to go through some kind of legal battle. I want to settle things quietly and peacefully. Given his tendency to be so passive and unable to make decisions, I think it is doable. I have to get passed my fears and I have to be strategic. He hasn't really fought me on anything yet. His behaviors are annoying and I don't want to be around him. He is not somebody that I would consider dangerous in the least.

I have been trying to work up the courage to go to the women's center. I don't even know how I would begin to explain an 18 year relationship with a guy that was pretty good for a whole lot of years. The beginning sucked and the end sucked. Everything in between was pretty good.

The things that I can't get over are the things that had nothing to do with his childishness or his grumpiness. The things that I can't get over and are the reasons that I am done have to do with very intimate stuff. When we had been married 3 or 4 years, he lost a job because he got caught looking at porn at work. It wasn't just any job though. It was at the place where we worked when we met. They kept it pretty quiet because he resigned on the spot. My old boss called me the next day and wanted to know why he left. I told her it was for personal reasons, blah, blah, blah. It pretty much put an end to me being able to call and visit those ladies. They never understood why ex up and left so suddenly. They had all lobbied for him to get the job. I would go visit him at work with our youngest daughter and visit with those ladies. That happened over 15 years ago yet still feels like it happened yesterday. I couldn't tell family and friends the whole story. I told one person about his porn use and was told that it was normal for guys to look at porn. This lady even went so far as to say, "Oh, my husband did that too. I didn't mind though because that meant he left me alone. "

When I expressed dissatisfaction with our relationship, people would look at me like I was crazy because he seemed so nice and sweet. He would rub my feet and do sweet things for me. I was told that I should be thankful for him because he would help with the kids and dress up as Santa and the list goes on. When the kids were little and I was breastfeeding, he would make dinner and go to the store and let me rest and take care of the kids. I had a little corner where I set up shop and he would cater to me. How in the world could I have a problem with any of that? I had a problem with that because I would sometimes want to do other things. Heck, there were times when I couldn't even get a shower by myself because him or the kids wanted/needed me. As long as I did what everybody else wanted, things were fine and happy and great. I wasn't wanting to run away for long periods of time. I was wanting to take a nap or maybe a shower. Heck, it would have been nice to be able to go to the grocery store and not have to worry about coming home to mass chaos.

The things that I have shared here are things that I can't/won't share with just anybody. I might give close friends a watered down version or minimize things. From the outside looking in, everything seemed pretty great. He appeared to be the guy that worked and supported his family. He stayed home and quit some of his activities to spend more time with the kids. When we are with other people, you would never know any of this. It was a picture of normal. The kids would act up and he would get grumpy or gruff with them, like any parent does when trying to correct a misbehaving child. He was great with my nieces and nephews.

Even now, I try to invite him to family stuff at my mom's house because he tends to be on his best behavior when others are around. Most of the time we spent with him on Christmas Eve was at my mom's house. Now that he isn't hanging on to my coattails, people are starting to see him more clearly based on the fact that it has been a year and he still doesn't have a job. People are starting to see a huge difference in the kids too. He tends to be pervasively invalidating rather than outright abusive. His invalidation is more like finding the negatives in stuff. A lot of it can be viewed as being protective and giving information. Something along the lines of "don't make a mess". It becomes invalidating when he is trying to give us direction on something that we have done hundreds of times without him around and been very successful at it. He invalidates us and then gets mad if we don't listen to him and follows up with, "I was just trying to help."

Nobody knew that ex would discourage me from doing healthy stuff while encouraging me to go see other men and then tell him about it before we engaged in intimate acts. I tried to be okay with it. After all, I am a sex positive woman that is open minded, blah, blah, blah. Nobody knows that he sat with me a couple days before our anniversary and looked at a picture of a guy that had sent me a picture of his junk and said, "Wow, he is big. You should f*** him. I bet you would like that." And it was said with complete sincerity, no sarcasm, no hint of anything other than him being excited at the prospect of me being with that guy. I didn't do it. But still, the idea that he wanted to see that stuff and encouraged me to do that makes me so sick the longer time goes on.

I did some stuff that I am not proud of at all. When he said let's see other people, I went for it. He was excited about it. He gave me more attention than he had ever given me before. He was in a much better mood. And, it was my ticket out of the house for brief periods. It was a chance for me to do something other than work and be a mom. Actually, when he proposed seeing others, I wasn't working outside of the house at all. I had an online job so that I could be with the kids. I hadn't been away from my kids or him in years. It sounds so horrible and so wrong that I would jump at the chance to see other guys.

He isn't around and I have so much more freedom. I don't ever want to go back to him. I don't ever want to be in a relationship with somebody that does the things that he did. It was confusing because there wasn't any real jealousy. There was no overt attempts to control me. He was actually pretty helpful at times and still is. It is small stuff though. I could tell him to get me something to eat and he would do it. Ask him to do something like keep up with the bills or mow the yard or something that is more in line with adult responsibilities and he would drag his feet and not do it. If I did it, then he would get mad because "I was going to do that. You didn't even give me a chance." Yeah, after a month or two of something needing done, I wasn't about to continue to sit around and wait for him.

I know that I could text him right now and tell him to go get a gallon of milk and he would do it without question. That makes it difficult to completely detach at times because there are days when I have worked all day or am getting ready to go to work and need to go to the store and don't feel like it. So, I call him and have him get stuff and bring it over to the kids. He wants to be physically present without changing anything. I can say and do pretty much anything I want and he doesn't seem to care. I know that he isn't going to take any kind of initiative in anything legal or anything that would really change anything. His resistance is that of a petulant child. I have more resources than he does. I have more creativity that he does and I definitely have more motivation than he does. And, he can't tell the truth to anyone without exposing his own secrets. He has to lie about me. He has to paint me a certain way in order to fit it into his fantasy world.

So, it is up to me to figure out how to approach things. He is just going to lay down and play victim and say "SEE, she is a horrible monster." Quite frankly, I don't care what he says about me any more. People that know me, know that he is childish and lazy. The people that know me wonder why I am still being so nice to him. The people that know me know that I am very stubborn and spirited while being very fair and mindful of all of the factors involved. I am very logical and practical and don't tend to do things willy nilly, which is another reason that this is taking me so friggin' long. I want to be certain of things before I start making permanent decisions.

It isn't about him. It is about ME and being afraid of dragging my kids through more stuff. It is about figuring out how to minimize the impact on the kids.

And, it is really friggin' embarrassing to be such a "dynamic, intelligent and energetic woman" and admit that I allowed myself to get in that situation. When ex and I first got together, somebody made the comment, "At least we don't have to worry about him hurting you. There is a greater chance of you hurting him." One of his friends told him, "She is too much of a woman for you to handle."

It is really friggin' ridiculous for me to be so scared of all of this. I think it has to do with some sexual abuse that I experienced as a child. After I told, I had to go see a doctor and get one of those exams. I remember being 9 years old laying in the stirrups and getting examined. It was cold and I was staring at the ceiling focusing on the ceiling tiles. I can still tell you the shirt I was wearing. It almost felt worse than the abuse that happened. Laying there while my mother watched this doctor probe my private parts to determine whether or not there had been any penetration was friggin' horrible. I don't ever want to deal with that again. I hated being put in a position where I had to try to explain things that I didn't have the words to explain. I don't have the words to explain some of the stuff that has transpired between me and my ex. It still doesn't make sense to me. I don't want some stranger probing me about the intimate details of my sexual relationship with my ex. The only way to adequately explain things is to open up and share that stuff.

[KateCat]

Believe it or not, I remember quite a lot of these things you have posted about. Yours is such a delicate situation and it doesn't quite match any other I've heard of here.

My sense is that your husband has exploited many strengths that you have. Not just your practicality and creativity, but also your healthy sexuality. And in ways that he could bet would remain pretty hidden. 

Like GAgrl, I am so happy to see that you don't "want" him anymore, so to speak. Yay! That's the biggie.

Now, how to prevent him from continuing to be able to ride on the coattails of all the hard work you do for your family? I wish I knew a way of having him held accountable to support his children other than a child support order issued by a court.

When I worked in a county support enforcement unit, there were staff trained especially to get fathers--and sometimes mothers--to get with the program, apply for jobs on a regular schedule, report in periodically and work a payment plan. Can anyone make this happen from inside a marriage?

You have every reason to be gun-shy about involvement of third parties, after what you've experienced. This is tough.

[vortex of confusion]

When I worked in a county support enforcement unit, there were staff trained especially to get fathers--and sometimes mothers--to get with the program, apply for jobs on a regular schedule, report in periodically and work a payment plan. Can anyone make this happen from inside a marriage?

Every time I talk to him these days, one of the first questions I ask is, "How many jobs have you applied for today?"

He has a part time/temporary job that he is supposed to start some time in January. I will believe it when I see it. The funny thing is that it is a posting that I sent him.

I know that his mom is on his case. I called her the other night to reassure her that no matter what happens she will still get to be a part of the kids' lives. She doesn't need to be punished for her son being a jerk. She and I compared notes and had a good conversation.

And, he has grumbled to me about his mom's nagging about him finding a job.

The weird thing is that ex and I are in the same profession. I am on the job boards quite a bit and have applied for a few full time jobs myself. My boss knows that he isn't working and has found as many extra hours for me as he could. My contract for my online job was renewed for the spring with a slight raise. So, I am managing to support 4 kids and get stuff done while working two jobs. I should be pretty proud of myself for all that I am accomplishing.

My other fear is that, if I go the legal route while he doesn't have a job, he will get out of paying support and I might have to pay him some kind of support. He has been the primary bread winner for 17 years. He left and dumped it all in my lap and I still haven't sunk. I am still keeping things going and I am still keeping my head above water and doing fun stuff with the kids.

I had one phone interview before the holidays and another place wants me to come in for an interview and will call after the holidays to set it up. I got all of this without even trying.

I send him job postings all the time. I have reviewed his resume and made some changes to it for jobs that aren't academic in nature. He has more job experience than I do and more education than I do yet he isn't getting many interviews or contacts. He has gotten some interviews but not many and none of them have led to him being hired.

[KateCat]

I'm glad his mom is on his case. 

Child support agencies too can have a hard time getting parents to work. In fact, it was during my time working for the county that I came to understand what a personality disorder is. Because I was wondering, WTH is up with all these slippery characters. And in that particular environment, many have cross-over cases with the criminal justice system. There are patterns to people who are so hard to come to an understanding with.

Have you had a chance to visit an attorney for a quick (confidential) consultation on financial matters? Normally in the case of a family where one parent was the primary bread-winner for the bulk of the marriage that is the person who will be expected to continue to direct support to the household of the primary home-making/child rearing parent. Especially with four kids. And especially when the primary earner has equal qualifications for the job market.

It is a pain to have qualifications that are more academic than practical. But he should feel better about himself (well, but for whatever disorder he may have) by making effort to overcome this difficulty.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks KateCat!
'
Practically speaking, the government agencies can't force him to get a job any better than me or his mom. If I go that route and he doesn't get a job, then he gets caught in the legal system and that would be one more excuse for him to not have a job. When I have talked to him about his lack of work he says stuff like, "I can't make people hire me." He is applying for jobs and is getting some interviews. I think his problem is his attitude and his demeanor. I don't think anybody is going to want to hire him until he gets some kind of help and can go in with a better air about himself.

I have NOT consulted an attorney. I am hesitant to do so as long as he doesn't make any waves or try to push things. He has paid the car note and trash bill every month since he left and he has occasionally bought us groceries. I can't say that he is doing nothing.

He has better qualifications than I do and more experience than I do. Our field is one where he doesn't necessarily have to go the academic route. I have suggested that he go back to school and go into a different field. I know he isn't exactly excited about our field. I am not even sure why he chose to go into our field. I feel like it was him riding on my coattail. I decided to go into my field because I loved it. I am the one that spoke to the recruiter from the graduate school offering a master's degree in the field. I started the program first and he followed me the following semester.

The man is very intelligent and very capable. He has two master's degrees and has had managerial experience as well as a nice variety of other experience in our field. On paper, he is friggin' fabulous. My resume is scant at best as I have only worked part time jobs and only have one master's degree.

[KateCat]

Very savvy reasoning, vortex. And it's clear you know him well.

[GaGrl]

You can petition the court to impute an income;that is, to say that his financial obligations sho Yuri 's be based on his earning history and current earn I inability, NOT on what he currently is, or is not, doing.

He doesn't get a Get Out Of Jail Free card.

[vortex of confusion]

I read about that in my research Gagrl. I don't know how realistic that is in my state. Most of the time, they figure stuff based on actual income. If I was unable to work or had been out of the workforce all together, that would be a more realistic possibility. Most of the cases that I read about where support was based on potential income were ones where the primary care giver had little or no education and had no means to support themselves without the support of the other parent.

I am not trying to let him off scot free. I am trying to figure out how to get what I want/need to take care of the kids and the house. The practical consideration for me is how getting a court order to make him pay based on potential income would help me. It might delay me getting money from him and it might cost more than it would net.

Right now, he has nothing but his clothes, a few books, and some personal items. I have the house, the good car, and pretty much everything else that he and I worked for together for the last 20 years.

[KateCat]

In my state they'd "impute" him in a heartbeat. And if he did not secure employment, his debt would build. He owes a duty to his minor children. In fact, eventually, and however briefly, they would put him in jail for contempt of court if he could not show serious efforts to become employed. He would have to tell it to a judge. Repeatedly.

None of that would guarantee that he would maintain employment, but it would make it miserable not to try.

[vortex of confusion]

I am not quite there yet! I am still in the working up my courage to actually take more concrete actions. I am really proud of myself for getting to a point where I DON'T want him any more. The thought of being with him makes me ill.

He no longer lives here. I have limited his access to the kids. I don't get caught up in his crap like I used to do. I have had a few episodes where I have told him some rather hard truths about what he has done. I was able to do it calmly and more rationally than ever before. When he has tried to tell me that something wasn't fair, I have been able to respond without blowing up at him.

-It isn't fair that I married a sex addict. I was never given any indication that you had a problem with any of that stuff.
-It isn't fair that when you left, you went out of state for three weeks and left me trying to figure out what to do about child care so I could go to work.
-It isn't fair that I have spent years taking care of these kids day in and day out with little or no help from you.
-It isn't fair that you get to sit over there and play your games, apply for jobs, and do whatever you want.
-It isn't fair that I can't even give you time with the kids without you bugging me and finding reasons to text me.

And when I blocked  him on Facebook again, I was able to respond rationally when he said, "I knew it would be a matter of time before you blocked me again." I was able to tell him, "I blocked you to keep from saying or doing anything mean. It hurts for me to see you living your life and doing whatever you want whenever you want. It hurts for me to see you tagged in pictures with other women. I am not going to subject myself to that." What he does is no longer any of my business so it shouldn't have bothered me. I guess it is the idea that I am here trying to pick up the pieces and he doesn't seem to have a care in the world. He threw me away and now it feels like he is throwing his kids away. I am the one that has to answer some really hard questions that the kids ask. I am the one that has to deal with the kids when they melt down over stuff that dad has said and done.

Of course,   he had to clarify that the woman in the picture was his lesbian friend and they were at a drag show together. How does that make it any better? The bottom line is that he is out having fun with friends and doing whatever he wants without having to worry about stuff like bills and child care or anything else. I get so friggin' mad that I can't get any kind of a break. I had a friend that used to come visit occasionally and I would take a weekend off and let ex spend the weekend with the kids. Ex would still contact me about really stupid stuff like "what are the kids' shoe sizes?" or "what should I feed them?" Um, ask the kids, not me. He will find pretty much any excuse to contact me when I am trying to get a few minutes to recharge. That sets me off. The older two kids have phones and they don't contact me as much as he does. I have asked the girls why they don't check in more and their response is, "Mom, we are capable. When you are out getting time to yourself, you don't need us bothering you. You need a break." My kids get that I sometimes need a break. My kids get that I don't need to be contacted unless there is a serious problem.

I know him well enough to know that he could show serious efforts to become employed without ever getting a job. Then I will still not have what I need and I will be out legal fees too. The ultimate question is whether or not doing something like that would do any good.

[jhkbuzz]

And, it is really friggin' embarrassing to be such a "dynamic, intelligent and energetic woman" and admit that I allowed myself to get in that situation.

There are a lot of similarities between our situations - my ex was "sweet and gentle," I was definitely the more practical, assertive one, and I also felt kind of isolated as time went on - we were raising my stepdaughter (who was 11 when we met) and that drove everything - I went from a single "do as I please" person to someone in a committed r/s who took parenting pretty seriously. My ex didn't isolate me, but the isolation gradually happened nonetheless. And when it was all over, I felt a lot of shame (that I also sense in your writing), "I'm intelligent, I'm strong, I'm independent - how did I let this happen to me?"

My ex also requested an open r/s. My boundaries aren't always very strong but they were strong on this; no open r/s, and cheating was the dealbreaker that ended our r/s. I thought about this a lot as I read your post about your husband's requests of you.

It is really friggin' ridiculous for me to be so scared of all of this. I think it has to do with some sexual abuse that I experienced as a child. After I told, I had to go see a doctor and get one of those exams. I remember being 9 years old laying in the stirrups and getting examined. It was cold and I was staring at the ceiling focusing on the ceiling tiles. I can still tell you the shirt I was wearing. It almost felt worse than the abuse that happened. Laying there while my mother watched this doctor probe my private parts to determine whether or not there had been any penetration was friggin' horrible. I don't ever want to deal with that again. I hated being put in a position where I had to try to explain things that I didn't have the words to explain. I don't have the words to explain some of the stuff that has transpired between me and my ex. It still doesn't make sense to me.

First of all, it's not ridiculous.  

Secondly, I suspected that something like this might be at play. As a child your boundaries were severely and traumatically violated - first by the molestation, then by the medical exam. (And make no mistake - that exam WAS an avoidable trauma - I'm very sorry that this happened to you.) Fast forward to today, and it is not surprising that this trauma played out again with your husband - that when someone was violating your body and your boundaries you felt paralyzed and unable to say "no." This is called "revictimization" (or alternately,"repetition compulsion" in therapeutic literature.

I am sorry that your first experience with a therapist was terrible - I hope you can find a way (both financially and emotionally) to give therapy another try. I also experienced sexual molestation as a child, and it's had a traumatic and pervasive effect on all of my adult r/s's. I'm still trying to work through it all - none of this is easy, fast or fun - but there's no way I can work through it without the help of my therapist.

I (fortunately) landed with a very experienced trauma therapist. All I knew about when I started was about "talk therapy", but there's a school of thought that says that trauma is remembered and held in the body - specifically in the nervous system. Somehow, all of this was very reassuring to me as I began to learn about it.

Here's an example: when I'm in a r/s and things begin to get sexual, feelings of anxiety (that can approach "utterly overwhelming" kick in. I HATE when this happens. My anxiety is particularly frustrating for me because I'm feeling sexual, I'm NOT an anxious or frightened person by nature - but there it is... .everything in my nervous system is telling me to RUN! You can imagine the effect this response has on my dating life!  

My response it not particularly surprising however, given my trauma history. My anxiety is not me "being crazy" - it's my "flight" response (as in, flight, fight, freeze).  I'm running now because I couldn't run then. Working with my therapist is about calming those nervous system responses down - and there are ways to do that.

It's very common for sexual abuse victims to be disconnected from their bodies. My therapist worked hard to get me to notice my bodily responses as we talked during our sessions. At first it was SUPER uncomfortable - and I thought she was a little crazy. Very often my answer to her questions were, "I don't know - I don't "feel" anything!" But we kept at it and I did start to notice - feelings in the pit of my stomach, little tics (rubbing my forefinger on this side of my thumb when I was nervously talking), the feeling of choking in my throat when I was talking about something especially emotional... .all nervous system responses that can be dealt with and healed.

One day I was talking about how I was molested and my therapist pointed out that, although my legs were crossed, my right leg was kicking slightly as I talked. Even after she pointed it out, I couldn't stop it. **kick**kick**kick** She explained it as a nervous system response that was thwarted during the molestation. That my impulse at the time was to RUN (flight) - but I couldn't. My body still remembers - and still tries to run - as I talk about it today.

I'm sharing this only to help you to understand the value of therapy - I would have never, ever, figured any of this on my own.

I don't want some stranger probing me about the intimate details of my sexual relationship with my ex. The only way to adequately explain things is to open up and share that stuff.

I don't know who said it, but this quote guides me through the tough stuff of life sometimes... ."the only way out is through." No going around the tough stuff, we've got to go through and deal with the mess. Have you considered that there could be an AMAZING outcome to therapy - that you could emerge from it as a much more whole and healed person who understands herself on a much deeper level?

I can tell you, that's what it's doing for me.

[KateCat]

I really enjoyed reading your post, jhkbuzz. Who among us isn't walking a path similar to the one you describe so beautifully?

vortex, I am kind of picturing you as a goundhog tentatively sticking her head up out of the burrow on this day in very late 2016. Fact-finding, in a most practical den-mother way.  Maybe you'll go underground again, thinking and absorbing what you learn this year. And maybe Groundhog Day next year will be different.

Does your state offer "no fault divorce?" (Since New York joined the pack that do, are there still any that don't?) Have you ever discussed the possibility of an uncontested divorce with your husband? One where there would be little need to reveal private family history?

Is your husband informed about what his rights and responsibilities might be as a divorcing/divorced father?

Can you find out what kind of "softball" and what kind of "hardball" the government support agencies in your county/state can play when it comes to child support enforcement?

Where I live the support agencies maintain lists of employers who will work with their obligor-parent clients. Many of these employers are able to accept workers with prior criminal convictions. There is definitely stop-gap work out there. Especially for an intelligent, skilled individual like your husband.

When it comes to "hardball," my county/state agencies have the power to suspend drivers' licenses and professional licenses; garnish wages; intercept lottery winnings; examine transfers of property, inheritances. You name it.

And then there's the scary theater of court appearances: When the agency concludes that an obligor parent is not playing ball, the agency files contempt of court documents with family court. The flashing eyes of some of the judges/commissioners who hear these cases remind me a bit of the God of Abraham. (Am I mistaken, or was your husband once a seminarian?)

I just plain think you hold a lot of cards and that there is a lot of help out there for you, bit by bit, when you are ready. Maybe starting with finding a really good therapist. One who can understand the whole entangled ball of yarn.

ADDED: Because here I really don't know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to divorce, would it make sense to apply for TANF benefits for your family, as a family where the husband is out of work temporarily? What would your husband think of this? Would it flush him out of his own cozy-ish burrow?

[vortex of confusion]

There are a lot of similarities between our situations - my ex was "sweet and gentle," I was definitely the more practical, assertive one, and I also felt kind of isolated as time went on - we were raising my stepdaughter (who was 11 when we met) and that drove everything

Caring for our kids drove everything. I got that. Some of our kids are pretty needy and it makes it difficult to do stuff. I got that too. I was left to make all of the parenting decisions. He was agreeable with pretty much anything and everything as long as it didn't inconvenience him too much. If he had exhibited these kinds of behaviors early on, I never would have had 4 kids with him. I feel really stupid sometimes because I had 4 kids with him.

My ex didn't isolate me, but the isolation gradually happened nonetheless. And when it was all over, I felt a lot of shame (that I also sense in your writing), "I'm intelligent, I'm strong, I'm independent - how did I let this happen to me?"

That is more or less how it happened with me too. He didn't intentionally isolate me. It was a matter of the kids not wanting me to leave and him being unable to deal with them. So, he would do all of the small stuff like go to the grocery store or run errands. I would try to get out and do stuff and would come home to chaos and it would end up where it would have been better off if I hadn't left at all. When I did get a babysitter, it was usually to go out with him. When I would ask people to babysit to do stuff on my own, I would get stuff like, "Why can't you leave them with their dad?" Technically, I could but I would come home to chaos or he would text me with stupid questions. My family suggested that it was my fault because I didn't give him enough time with the kids. My dad encouraged me to go away for a week and let him and the kids figure things out for themselves. Maybe it would give ex a taste of what I deal with every day. It helped for a little bit but not long.

My ex also requested an open r/s. My boundaries aren't always very strong but they were strong on this; no open r/s, and cheating was the dealbreaker that ended our r/s. I thought about this a lot as I read your post about your husband's requests of you.

My reasoning for going ahead with the open relationship was that he seemed so much happier in the beginning. He was giving me more attention and was nicer across the board.

Things didn't get bad until a couple of things happened:
1. I became completely disgusted by his constant probing about specific details. It made my skin crawl to think that he wanted to hear details and that it excited him.
2. He could not live up to his end of the bargain. He did not tell me what he was doing. He would say that he wanted to work on us while secretly chasing women.
3.When I started refusing to give him details and let him be a part of what I was doing, he turned into a jerk.
4. I was jealous because he was being nicer to those women than me. He couldn't plan an anniversary date/dinner for us but he could plan meet ups with them and be excited about it. I usually threw a monkey wrench in his plans because I was not getting anything but lies.
5. And, I found out through snooping that he was not telling them that we had agreed to try an open relationship. He was telling them horrible things about me.

If we didn't have 4 kids together, I probably would have said no. I was naively thinking that he and I could find a way to keep our home in tact. I wanted so badly to give my kids a two parent home.

Secondly, I suspected that something like this might be at play. As a child your boundaries were severely and traumatically violated - first by the molestation, then by the medical exam. (And make no mistake - that exam WAS an avoidable trauma - I'm very sorry that this happened to you.)

Thanks for this! To make it worse, it was a situation where my sister and I were both violated. Both of us had to go through and exam and talk to some people. She had been raped. I had just been fondled/molested. I was unable to talk about it or give much information about it. The physical exam didn't find any kind of physical evidence. The results of my stuff were inconclusive. All of the attention was put on my sister because she was raped and the only reason that she told was because she thought she might be pregnant. I feel like pretty much all of the attention was given to her. They weren't sure if anything had actually happened to me or if I was just trying to get attention. I don't recall the specifics. I just know that it was swept under the rug and nothing more was said about it. There were a few other instances in my childhood where grown men tried to play grab azz with me. I didn't tell. It wouldn't do any good. I wouldn't be heard and I would likely get in trouble. So, why would I want to go talk to somebody about this stuff? I am a grown woman. I should have made better choices. I should have had better boundaries.

Fast forward to today, and it is not surprising that this trauma played out again with your husband - that when someone was violating your body and your boundaries you felt paralyzed and unable to say "no." This is called "revictimization" (or alternately,"repetition compulsion" in therapeutic literature.

Thank you for this too! This is so spot on. I definitely feel paralyzed and unable to say no at times. Even when I did try to say no, I couldn't communicate it in a way where it was heard. So, maybe I really did want it and ex knew it better than me. After all, crying in the bath tub and telling him that I couldn't do it wasn't a strong enough no. He encouraged me and I did it. If I hadn't really, really wanted to do it, then I would have been strong enough to not only say no but not do it. I am the one that drove across town to meet this person. He didn't force me to do it. I did it willingly and then willingly shared the details with him afterwards. It makes me sick to type that out. How in the hell can I look somebody in the eyes and admit that? It is disgusting and horrible and I cannot find an explanation as to why I would do that other than to say that he really wanted me to do it. I turned it into an adventure in my head rather than standing up for myself and telling him to go fly a kite.

I (fortunately) landed with a very experienced trauma therapist. All I knew about when I started was about "talk therapy", but there's a school of thought that says that trauma is remembered and held in the body - specifically in the nervous system. Somehow, all of this was very reassuring to me as I began to learn about it.

Talk therapy with regards to this stuff does not work for me. I don't know how to talk about it. I can't find the words. I did some therapy when I was in college. It was focused on getting through a specific situation and none of that stuff was ever brought up.

Here's an example: when I'm in a r/s and things begin to get sexual, feelings of anxiety (that can approach "utterly overwhelming" kick in. I HATE when this happens. My anxiety is particularly frustrating for me because I'm feeling sexual, I'm NOT an anxious or frightened person by nature - but there it is... .everything in my nervous system is telling me to RUN! You can imagine the effect this response has on my dating life!  

With ex, I would just shut down. There were times when I would try to tell him what I wanted/needed. He took it as me being critical of him. I stopped asking. I would shut down, take care of his needs and leave mine unfulfilled. Instead of running, I shut down, take care of business and go quiet.

I have only been with one person in all my years where I was able to stay present and not shut down. The only reason that I was able to stay present was that he didn't pay attention to my words. He payed attention to what my body was doing/saying rather than relying on words. There was very little talking with words. It was all unspoken. There was a time when I didn't want to do something and we looked at each other. His eyes said it was okay for me to stop so I stopped. It is surreal how he and I were able to communicate without ever saying a word.

My response it not particularly surprising however, given my trauma history. My anxiety is not me "being crazy" - it's my "flight" response (as in, flight, fight, freeze).  I'm running now because I couldn't run then. Working with my therapist is about calming those nervous system responses down - and there are ways to do that.

It's very common for sexual abuse victims to be disconnected from their bodies. My therapist worked hard to get me to notice my bodily responses as we talked during our sessions. At first it was SUPER uncomfortable - and I thought she was a little crazy. Very often my answer to her questions were, "I don't know - I don't "feel" anything!" But we kept at it and I did start to notice - feelings in the pit of my stomach, little tics (rubbing my forefinger on this side of my thumb when I was nervously talking), the feeling of choking in my throat when I was talking about something especially emotional... .all nervous system responses that can be dealt with and healed.

The "I don't feel anything" gave me a chuckle because I can totally relate. I fidget with my fingernails or I have this thing where my leg will bounce. And smoking. It is a great way to cover up the nervous tic stuff. I know that there are times when I will physically shake like I am cold.

I'm sharing this only to help you to understand the value of therapy - I would have never, ever, figured any of this on my own.

I am aware of the value of therapy. When I found the lady that reported me, I was on a hell bent mission to get help. I wanted to talk about this stuff. I wanted to get through it. I wanted help. When she dropped a bunch of emotional bombs on me, I couldn't deal with it. I said I wanted to stop seeing her so she reported me. I don't understand how she could have said the things that she did. I guess I don't really let on how much some of this stuff hurts. I tend to put on a smile and plug along. I really don't think she was equipped to deal with some of this stuff.

[vortex of confusion]

vortex, I am kind of picturing you as a goundhog tentatively sticking her head up out of the burrow on this day in very late 2016. Fact-finding, in a most practical den-mother way.  Maybe you'll go underground again, thinking and absorbing what you learn this year. And maybe Groundhog Day next year will be different.

I love this mental image KateCat. It is so spot on. That is exactly how I feel at times.

Does your state offer "no fault divorce?" (Since New York joined the pack that do, are there still any that don't?) Have you ever discussed the possibility of an uncontested divorce with your husband? One where there would be little need to reveal private family history?

I am pretty sure it does. That is what I would like to do. I know several people that have done it. Ex and I have discussed getting an amicable divorce. Neither one of us want to drag the kids through any kind of court stuff. Personally, I would like to end our marriage as peacefully as possible. 

Is your husband informed about what his rights and responsibilities might be as a divorcing/divorced father?

I don't think he knows and I don't think he has done any kind of research on it either. I think he will go along with pretty much whatever I say as long as it doesn't seem unreasonable. I don't see him fighting me on anything. I will likely have to push him to fulfill his responsibilities.

Can you find out what kind of "softball" and what kind of "hardball" the government support agencies in your county/state can play when it comes to child support enforcement?

I don't think he is going to have a problem giving us support once he gets a job. For all of our years together, he has been content to let me manage the finances.

I just plain think you hold a lot of cards and that there is a lot of help out there for you, bit by bit, when you are ready. Maybe starting with finding a really good therapist. One who can understand the whole entangled ball of yarn.

I know I hold most of the cards. I am trying to figure out which ones I want to use and which ones I want to ignore. Until recently, I couldn't even consider some of this stuff. I had some kind of false delusion that he would get a job and everything would be okay. He has told me several times that he has an interview and should have a job soon. I know that he has been in contact with his boss at the job where he got laid off. They want him back but have to get approval from the governing people. He has shown me that correspondence.

ADDED: Because here I really don't know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to divorce, would it make sense to apply for TANF benefits for your family, as a family where the husband is out of work temporarily? What would your husband think of this? Would it flush him out of his own cozy-ish burrow?

We have discussed that. I told myself that I had to do something after the first of the year. So, I am trying to keep myself honest and figure out exactly what it is that I am going to do. I am kind of waiting to see if they hire him back at his old job. He was laid off last year and they are trying to get the funds to hire him back. I am not going to hold my breath. At the same time, I don't want to make any hasty decisions. (I am laughing at myself for saying that. I am like a sloth in all of this. No chance of anything I do being hasty.)

[KateCat]

All right! You're doing great. You're doing everything.

[jhkbuzz]

My reasoning for going ahead with the open relationship was that he seemed so much happier in the beginning... .if we didn't have 4 kids together, I probably would have said no. I was naively thinking that he and I could find a way to keep our home intact. I wanted so badly to give my kids a two parent home.

So you did something that you really didn't want to do in order to protect your children. No man who actually loved you or your children would have asked you to do this. He would have respected your boundaries and been concerned about your emotional well being.

Both of us had to go through and exam and talk to some people. She had been raped. I had just been fondled/molested... .I feel like pretty much all of the attention was given to her. They weren't sure if anything had actually happened to me or if I was just trying to get attention. I don't recall the specifics. I just know that it was swept under the rug and nothing more was said about it.

Yuck. The adults in your life should have respected your boundaries and been concerned about your emotional well being. I'm sorry that they weren't.

There were a few other instances in my childhood where grown men tried to play grab azz with me. I didn't tell. It wouldn't do any good. I wouldn't be heard and I would likely get in trouble.

So you learned a sad lesson from childhood about abuse (hush up, no one will listen anyway). Do you think you have internalized this message? I think you have.

So, why would I want to go talk to somebody about this stuff?

... .because that little internal voice tells you, Hush up, no one will listen anyway.

I definitely feel paralyzed and unable to say no at times. Even when I did try to say no, I couldn't communicate it in a way where it was heard.

Perhaps the problem isn't that "you couldn't communicate it in a way where it was heard" - perhaps the problem is that the person listening couldn't see you or hear you - and that has everything to do with them and nothing to do with you. This inability of the people you love to see you and hear you seems to be a reoccurring issue in your life.

So, maybe I really did want it and ex knew it better than me. After all, crying in the bath tub and telling him that I couldn't do it wasn't a strong enough no. He encouraged me and I did it.

If I hadn't really, really wanted to do it, then I would have been strong enough to not only say no but not do it.

I am a grown woman. I should have made better choices. I should have had better boundaries.

No, no, no and NO. What your HUSBAND did was abusive. What YOU did was a result of the lessons you learned about yourself, your body and your boundaries in childhood. (That your body isn't your own; that a molester or doctor or mom can poke and pry and you have no choice; that raising your voice and complaining won't help; that you'll be ignored, or even worse, told that you are a liar). Part of healthy, adult growth is identifying those destructive lessons you learned in childhood and discarding them.

I am the one that drove across town to meet this person. He didn't force me to do it. I did it willingly and then willingly shared the details with him afterwards. It makes me sick to type that out. How in the hell can I look somebody in the eyes and admit that? It is disgusting and horrible and I cannot find an explanation as to why I would do that other than to say that he really wanted me to do it. I turned it into an adventure in my head rather than standing up for myself and telling him to go fly a kite.

Your shame and self-loathing hurts my heart.    

Take a look at the language you are using to shame yourself. I did it, I was willing, he didn't force me... .all self-talk designed to make you feel as "sick and disgusting and horrible" as possible. You choose those words, no one else. You could choose other words, but you stick with the ones that encourage self-hatred.

How about this? I drove across town to meet this person even though I didn't want to, because I thought it would make my husband happy and protect my children. I can look at it now and see how emotionally manipulative he was, and how vulnerable I was, and when I look back on it I am sad that I wasn't able protect myself from this kind of abuse. I'm working on learning how to do this today.

One of the things I've learned to do through therapy is to STOP the internal voice that shames me. Over time I came to recognize that the fact that I am very, very hard on myself is a reflection (and repetition) of how hard my mother was on me.

I went and found a picture of myself when I was seven - that's around the time that the molestation started. I've stared and stared at that picture, and developed compassion for that little girl who was wounded and who still drives my decision making at times. I don't scold her or shame her or tell her that she's stupid; I've learned to be gentle with her. With myself.

[vortex of confusion]

So you did something that you really didn't want to do in order to protect your children. No man who actually loved you or your children would have asked you to do this. He would have respected your boundaries and been concerned about your emotional well being.

I keep coming back to this thought. It makes me sick to think that he showed so little concern for me and my well being. My best friend kept asking me if I was sure that I wanted to go through with it. I assured her that I did and I spelled out all of my reasons for wanting to do it.
 

So you learned a sad lesson from childhood about abuse (hush up, no one will listen anyway). Do you think you have internalized this message? I think you have.

It is tough pill to swallow. You are right.  I have definitely internalized it. There have been so many times when I tried to tell ex something only to have him dismiss me. It was small stuff too. One time, I told him the brakes on my van were messed up. He drove it and said they were fine. He said that he had them check it when he got the oil changed and they said it was fine too. I let my dad drive and he said that I was right. My brother checked it out and the brakes had gotten into the rotors. Lot of little instances where I knew something wasn't right only to be told that I was wrong. It is funny to think about because I feel like I was heard more as a kid than I ever was as an adult with ex. Some of this comes from FOO issues. A lot of it comes directly from the dynamics of the relationship with ex. I have often felt like I had more freedom and more voice as a child than I ever did with ex.

Perhaps the problem isn't that "you couldn't communicate it in a way where it was heard" - perhaps the problem is that the person listening couldn't see you or hear you - and that has everything to do with them and nothing to do with you. This inability of the people you love to see you and hear you seems to be a reoccurring issue in your life.

So true! Ex had a way of making everything about him. If the kids or I tried to tell him something, he had a way of making it about him. He would find a story about himself or somebody he knew and would tell that rather than actually listen to us. He lived in his own little world.

No, no, no and NO. What your HUSBAND did was abusive. What YOU did was a result of the lessons you learned about yourself, your body and your boundaries in childhood. (That your body isn't your own; that a molester or doctor or mom can poke and pry and you have no choice; that raising your voice and complaining won't help; that you'll be ignored, or even worse, told that you are a liar). Part of healthy, adult growth is identifying those destructive lessons you learned in childhood and discarding them.

I keep trying to blow it off and say that he wasn't abusive. I have talked to people that have been in open relationships and they agree that what he did was not right. Even in the kinkiest/weirdest situations, his behavior is NOT okay. I don't know why I am having such a difficult time accepting that what he did was wrong and abusive. I don't know of any man in any kind of relationship that would do those things to somebody he loved. The men that I grew up around were very protective of me and tended to listen to me. I grew up a daddy's girl and I spent most of my time around respectable men that looked out for me. I expected my husband to do the same. I know that it sounds contradictory that I grew up with strong men in my life. The ones that abused me were not the strong ones. They were the weaselly ones that did stuff when my dad wasn't around.

Your shame and self-loathing hurts my heart.    

My shame and self loathing didn't start until after I talked to the coach that reported me. Until then, I was pretty certain that I had gone to extreme measures to protect my kids. She thought I was endangering my kids by leaving them with their dad (a hypersexual male with anger issues). The way it was phrased was that I was going out with another man knowing that it would arouse ex and was leaving my kids with an aroused male. That is not what happened. Ex didn't get excited until I came home and told him about it. It was a very specific thing that aroused him. The idea of me with somebody didn't necessarily get him going. If I was going to be with somebody and not tell him about it, it was more likely to piss him off than excite him. I couldn't explain that to her. I didn't  have the words to verbalize it. I never went anywhere or did anything if I thought for one second that my kids were in danger.

Take a look at the language you are using to shame yourself. I did it, I was willing, he didn't force me... .all self-talk designed to make you feel as "sick and disgusting and horrible" as possible. You choose those words, no one else. You could choose other words, but you stick with the ones that encourage self-hatred.

Thank you for pointing this out! You are right. The two experiences that I had trying to seek help pointed me in that direction. I tried COSA and the lady that I was working with said that maybe I was a sex/love addict too. She wanted me to take responsibility for enabling ex and being a part of his fantasies. The coach went to the opposite extreme and painted me out as a helpless victim that was mindlessly endangering her children. The truth is somewhere in the middle. It wasn't a choice that I made because I got some kind of cheap thrill out of it and it wasn't a choice that I was forced to make without regard for the safety of my children.

How about this? I drove across town to meet this person even though I didn't want to, because I thought it would make my husband happy and protect my children. I can look at it now and see how emotionally manipulative he was, and how vulnerable I was, and when I look back on it I am sad that I wasn't able protect myself from this kind of abuse. I'm working on learning how to do this today.

I like this much better. I have to fight the urge to say, "I wanted to because it would make my husband happy and I could get out of the house for a while."

One of the things I've learned to do through therapy is to STOP the internal voice that shames me. Over time I came to recognize that the fact that I am very, very hard on myself is a reflection (and repetition) of how hard my mother was on me.

I am very hard on myself. I was the golden child as a kid and the expectations that were set for me were terribly high. If I brought home a 90 instead of 100, I was asked why it wasn't a 100. If I made all A's and one B, the focus was on the fact that I made a B. I couldn't do an ounce of the stuff that my siblings did. If I got in trouble at school for any reason, I was made to face the consequences, blah, blah, blah. If my siblings got in trouble at school, our parents would go down to the school and advocate for them and get them out of trouble. I often times felt that I had to be perfect or suffer the consequences. Ex continued those expectations. He could have bad days. He could get upset. He could screw stuff up. I felt like I had to have everything figured out and be nice all the time. If I exploded because I had reached my limit, I became a raging, scary b***. He would back me into a corner and ignore me until I couldn't take it any more.

When I have tried to tell ex how difficult it is to do all that I am doing it, he says stuff like, "You are strong. you will get through it."

I went and found a picture of myself when I was seven - that's around the time that the molestation started. I've stared and stared at that picture, and developed compassion for that little girl who was wounded and who still drives my decision making at times. I don't scold her or shame her or tell her that she's stupid; I've learned to be gentle with her. With myself.

I definitely need to do better at being gentle with myself. When I have tried to be gentle with myself and give myself time, I have had people try to rush me. That is when I get flustered and don't know how to respond. I know that people in real life are getting impatient with me.

[vortex of confusion]

Part of healthy, adult growth is identifying those destructive lessons you learned in childhood and discarding them.

I have been thinking about this a lot since I read it.

One of the things that I have done as a parent is evaluate all of the parenting practices of my parents so I could make different/better choices. In my parenting journey, I have torn apart pretty much every piece of "traditional" wisdom and evaluated it to see if it is a practice worth keeping or a practice worth rejecting.

I think a lot of the problems started between ex and I because I was trying to grow and shed old patterns and old habits. I was trying to assert myself as an individual person. I used to look upon some of the stuff he did, like catering to me, with fondness. I saw it as something positive. As I get further and further away from him and the relationship, I am seeing it in a different light. I think there were things that he did to prevent me from growing and changing. When I was going to try to go back to school after we had kids, his first question was "what about the kids"? So many times, I would try to grow and expand and he would find negative reason after negative reason until I gave up.

He had no ambition and no desire to change anything even if things were falling apart around him. There is a big difference between changing because you are bored and changing because the situation changes. As our kids grew older, it was necessary to adjust and grow with them. You can't treat a 15 year the same way you would treat a 2 year old.

I can see that the source of a lot of my behaviors came from a desire for some kind of growth or change. I was not content to continue to do the same thing over and over with no growth and no thought and no desire to change. I couldn't sit around and accept that. I did not want to set that kind of example for my kids.

[lovenature]

I know that people in real life are getting impatient with me.

ANYONE who hasn't lived through a BPD relationship could possibly fathom it, and they aren't able to advise on recovery (in fact they are known to invalidate).

You made decisions in the past with what you knew at those times, trying to do what was best for your family; hindsight is usually 20/20. Try to find the compassion for yourself that you deserve.

[Grey Kitty]

Talk therapy with regards to this stuff does not work for me. I don't know how to talk about it. I can't find the words. I did some therapy when I was in college. It was focused on getting through a specific situation and none of that stuff was ever brought up.

$.02 on this... .you can find the words. I found this topic, and you wrote a great many words about this, and they were powerful and eloquent ones too!

Having the words and being able to talk doesn't mean you can talk to a therapist about it.

You were not able to talk to you parents or teachers about childhood trauma and violation (or didn't get support if  you did!). You were further violated in a medical exam, instead of being supported by doctors or therapists.  You found ways to cope with it on your own because other resources were made unavailable to you or turned against you.

When your ex was behaving horribly and abusively years later, you still couldn't find support in those directions. And you were violated AGAIN by your therapy experience, being reported to CPS. Your parents (and many others) invalidated you instead of supporting you. Again.

You are strong enough to talk about this. Do not doubt that. Given who you are and what you've been through, it would be incredibly hard for you to trust somebody like a therapist.

I always admire people who push themselves through their discomfort to do more and be more. Pick the right place to push yourself. Trusting a therapist doesn't sound like the best one for you today. I think trusting a lawyer would be a better starting point for you if you want to push in that direction.