I'm speechless I don't know what to do

[Cloudy Days]

I haven't been on here in awhile, things have been going somewhat ok with my husband. However I was rudely awakened last night to just how not OK things are.

I was sleeping and my husband woke me up screaming that I was cheating on him and that he had proof. My husband has always accused me of cheating on him but has never had proof. Sometimes it's worse than others but I've noticed it has gotten worse the last couple of weeks, heck I don't know I am in a brain fog at the moment.  I for the record am not cheating on him, but he sure thinks I am. So I guess for the past couple weeks my husband planted a recording device on me and has been listening to it every night when I go to bed, I beleive it has the ability to track where I am too. None of this really bothers me because I have nothing to hide, I mean it's insane and a complete disrespect of my privacy but how the heck do I prove I am not cheating on someone?

Anyways Last night he seems to think he heard me say "Stick your C*ck in me" on this recording. I listened to the recording and it does sound like that's what it says. However I had a radio on the entire time and from what I have been able to listen to, he heard the radio. I also know I never said that line. Of course he is going to use this as evidence saying I am cheating on him. He's now saying he is going to leave me, after a terrible night of course.

I don't even know if I care if he is leaving. He totally broke my trust with this recording device and I am just so sick of the never ending conversation where I have to claim my innocence every day. This isn't a life I want to live. I guess I am just looking for advice, I can't even think strait I am so tierd.

So... .I am being accused of something I didn't do and he seems to think he has clear cut proof that I am cheating on him. Any and all trust I had for him is gone. He's no longer a friend of mine, not really sure where I go from here.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tattered Heart]

Oh, wow! I am so so sorry that you are going through this. I cannot imagine how violated you might feel right now. The hurt, anger, and betrayal at being recorded, the fear of being awoken to being screamed at. It's so easy to get comfortable when things are quieter than usual only to be slapped in the face that things really aren't as good as we thought they were. And that they may never be what we hoped for.

I wish I could help you with advice on how to handle this but I don't know what I would do if in that scenario. Is this something you have to decide on right now? Your final decision is ultimately up to you. Some things to consider are that he might continue this behavior in the future. His imagination of what you said could become fuel for future arguments. It could blow over and never happen again. Are there boundaries and limits on this behavior that you could enact to prevent this from happening in the future?

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, that is harsh and horrible.     

My first thought is that his spying is a horrible violation of you. Even though you have "nothing to hide" and he won't find anything real by spying on you.

My next thought is to ask whether this really is changing anything for him.

This kind of dysregulation and fight isn't new, although it hadn't been this bad for a while.

If I recall correctly, threats to leave are nothing new from him either.

... .Perhaps you can try something new in regard to the accusations of cheating, as those are a much repeated problem pattern... .

When he brings it up, tell him once that you didn't. (Or don't even bother if it is too repetitive)

Then tell him that you are tired of this fight, and he can choose to trust you, or choose not to, but you are done trying to prove your innocence. It is his choice what he wants to do.

[Notwendy]

I'm speechless too.

For your own sanity ( not to JADE) but where were you when this was recorded?  I know you didn't say this, but something like this is said in context- like a hotel room.
 
It's unlikely someone would say this in a business meeting, the supermarket, the airport. Said in the supermarket- that could have been telling the checkout person to please stick the cookies in the bag.

If you were driving down the highway with the radio on- surely something else isn't going on.    if there was someone else there, there would be another voice speaking too.

This one imagined line out of context makes no sense.
I would be angry that someone recorded me as well.

[Lockjaw]

My husband has always accused me of cheating on him but has never had proof.

I had a cheating spouse, and I don't know you, but the way this is worded, it sounds as though you have cheated in the past, he just never had any proof of it. I saw where you said later that you never have, but a suspicious person could read this a different way than you intended.

My GF also accused me of calling her a certain word that I don't use, so... .I hope your best defense besides you don't cheat is you don't say that word too. That was mine. No I didn't say it, and I don't use that word.

I hate you have to go through that. Sounds awful. I would not put up with being monitored and recorded. If you don't trust me, put me on the road please.

[Notwendy]

Maybe what she meant to say was she was accused but not ever given him a reason to think she was cheating.

I've been accused of cheating, or subjected to questioning like " did you meet anyone?" after I have been somewhere. I haven't cheated, nor given anyone a reason to think I am. It is crazymaking- hard to prove or not prove unless someone is right there all the time. Any relationship has to involve a certain amount of trust.

But feelings can feel like fact. He probably thought you said that- therefor you did. I recall once going to a get together with friends and our families. My H was not there- but other family members were there with me. How it would even be imaginable that I'd be cheating right there in front of a room full of kids, parents, grandparents is beyond me, but my H was out of sorts when I returned.

There doesn't have to be logic to this. However, the huge issue is that he recorded you without your knowledge. That is a violation of boundaries. Is this even legal?

[Cloudy Days]

Ha, I have to laugh. I worded my question that way because of how I have been bombarded with the cheating questions. It's almost like I feel like I have to say I haven't cheated because I have had to deal with this for so long.   I haven't given him any reasons to believe I am cheating either, he just comes up with them on his own. I think most of us know how out there things can get when they really want to believe something. I am no match for it.

I was at work when he recorded me. It was a small flash drive thing that you can turn on and it will record all day long, he put it in my purse. I work alone all day long and you are right the first thing I said was if someone was there with me you would have heard someone elses voice. So his next thing is to say well then obviously I wasn't cheating right that second but I had to of said it to someone at least over the phone which makes him think I said it over the phone to some "boyfriend".

My purse was sat right next to the radio, litterally like right in front of it way closer to the recording device than I actually was. I know for a fact it was the radio because I didn't say those words. I will never convince him of that though.

So I guess I move on to damage control, for my own self. I'm going to try harder on the boundaries as far as saying either trust me or let me go. I don't even want to go home, My emotions are usually very easy to read and I am pissed even though I know what he heard was a suspicious thing, but he shoudn't have been recording me so it's all just a nasty mess that I end up paying for. Not being accused of cheating should be as simple as not cheating. It makes me feel crazy.

[Notwendy]

Not that this makes it OK, but there could be some projected shame at being caught recording you and seeing you angry.

I have a vivid memory from my teen years- as it was so confusing at the time. I had no idea what was going on with BPD mom. She often blamed me for things, so I wasn't sure of myself- felt as if things were my fault when they weren't.

I came home from school early. It was unexpected- I can't recall the reason they let us out early. Mom didn't hear me come in- didn't expect me. I walked into my bedroom and found her snooping through my things- she had my letters from friends open ( we didn't have text messaging or email back then, so we wrote notes and letters.) My drawers were open- she was basically snooping through my stuff. She had no reason to. I was a good student, I don't think I was dating anyone at the time- so she had no reason to suspect harmful teen behavior.

i don't think I said much, I was just shocked. She turned around, caught red handed, and then raged at me - how dare you for walking in on her! But it was my room. How dare I walk into my room. It would have been funny but it scared me. Apparently it was my fault she was caught snooping.

I hope he realizes he had no right to record you. You have every right to be angry. But with BPD he is likely to be angry at you that you are angry.

Don't dismiss your feelings. It is up to you to decide what to do about them, but you have done nothing wrong.

[Grey Kitty]

It was a small flash drive thing that you can turn on and it will record all day long, he put it in my purse.

What the heck is he doing putting things in your purse and taking them out without your permission or knowledge? This is so incredibly far from acceptable on his part!


Projection is a common thing (especially for pwBPD, but others too), and it might not be just projected shame at being caught snooping like Notwendy described.

Do you think the ongoing accusations of cheating on his part could be coming out of projection? Even if he's not cheating, could he be doing something else that he feels guilty or ashamed of, and is hiding from you, like porn or an emotional affair?

[Jessica84]

I'm so sorry. Must be draining to feel like you have to defend yourself all the time. 

I can't imagine that's a common song lyric on the radio, unless you're into some pretty hardcore music? Do you curse a lot at work? I know I do - it could sound pretty pornographic to a BPD ear unaware of the context and looking for "proof"! I guess it doesn't really matter what was actually said or where it came from because any clarification will only sound like JADEing... .and the more you defend yourself, the guiltier you will look. So frustrating.

Validation might be helpful: "it must feel awful to think I would cheat on you or say that to someone." But don't forget the T in SET - "I didn't say that" or "No, I wasn't cheating". Say it once and refuse to engage any further. If he rages, get somewhere safe and let him process his feelings where it does you the least amount of harm. Sorry you are going thru this. 

[borderlinebunny]

BPD or not, he is abusing you. You don't want to get used to this. If you get too used to being treated like this, you could end up with trauma, or mental health issues yourself.

Also, there is a chance that he could actually be cheating on you.

( Here is a video detailing a bit about cheating and projection - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_31uLPJXLQ )

Us Borderlines are known to project like crazy. I know for a fact that I do this. My paranoia of what my partner is doing, is literally what I am doing. (e.g. I accuse him of looking at another woman when in fact, I was looking at her).

[Notwendy]

Bunny, you make a good point, one that did not escape me when I was accused of cheating. Yet, I also know that considering projection isn't proof of cheating, and even thinking about cheating isn't cheating.

I've been married a long time, and I know that being married doesn't stop anyone from noticing an attractive person or feeling attraction. I think being married means making a conscious decision to protect the marriage vows by not placing yourself in a position to cheat. I think few incidences of cheating go from " hey you're good looking" right to the bedroom in minutes. They start with a connection and both people pursue it. Honoring a marriage vow takes boundaries. Yes, someone may think someone else is attractive, but leave it at that- not make any attempts to be closer to that person- no meeting one on one, not speaking about personal matters, and so on.

If a pwBPD has poor boundaries, he or she may not stay out of the mucky gray area between attraction and cheating yet still honor the boundary of not actually cheating. He or she may imagine their partner in the same situation- - "I feel like I want to cheat- so she feels that way so she is cheating".  I can also imagine that this sets up some personal shame, insecurity, and fear the other person will find out about the attraction- and project that on to their partner.

I assumed that married couples could take this kind of thing in stride. When watching TV with my H, if there is a pretty actress, or the Victoria Secret commercial- I can see my H notice and he may say something like "wow she is pretty". Of course he is going to notice. But it isn't a threat to the marriage. I know that this kind of thing isn't significant compared to the marital bond. I also know that an actress on TV isn't real- she is playing a character- and the character may be attractive but its an act.

However, there were times when I have remarked- "wow that actor is handsome" and my H has been upset- then says things like " you wish I was him, you like him better than me" as if there are no boundaries between thinking someone is attractive and actually cheating. But there is.

[Lockjaw]

You know what's funny? I admit I am a watcher. If I see a nice looking woman, I will look. I mean God made me attracted to certain things, and if I get to see them, why shouldn't I look? I don't want to be creepy, and its not as though I think, oh wow, I want to bang her. I don't. It's more like, wow that is a really nice looking woman. I usually wonder what her personality is like more than anything.

You know, like is she nice? Is she sane? LOL!

Back to the device. I would be pissed off. That isn't ok. I think I would be putting my purse in a desk drawer or someplace where its encased.

[WifeInOz]

Hey Cloudy
First off ((HUGS)) to you   ... My husband has checked my phone while I was in the other room, accuses me of looking at my ex bf's fb profile, and has put a LIFE 360 app on my phone. (I dont care about the app, Like you, I have nothing to hide)  So I know about the accusations and the insanity of it all. I am new to this forum so I dont have much advice, just know you are NOT alone. Please feel free to private message me if you want to talk.

J xoxo

[Cloudy Days]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

I know he is not cheating on me, it's not in his character. I just don't think he is. This has been an ongoing thing, things like this tend to pop up every now and then when I think things are getting better. It's not the first time he has recorded me, he has placed a phone recorder on my phone before as well. As far as him putting something in my purse, I have nothing to hide so I don't really guard my purse. What's he going to take? Money that he owns already? That's what drives me crazy about all of this, I am an open book, this site is the only thing he doesn't know about with good reason. Everything else I am open about because I don't want arguments like this.

I did sit with him and listen to what he claims is me cheating. To me it is a distortion of the radio, when you hear me actually speak on the recording it is much louder, heck when you hear me breath or sigh it is louder. But that isn't proof enough for him. I do feel part of him is pissed off because he feels shame about what he did. He won't even allow me to bring up the point that what he was doing was completely creepy. He keeps going back and forth from being ok to accusing me. I keep getting woken up by him in the middle of the night to have this same conversation. I know it is abusive, it is all abusive. It has already affected me, I am not even thinking about leaving but I know I should be. It all stems from him being cheated on before and the number of times people have lied to him in the past. It's always about how ___ty he was treated in his past.

I feel like I am being punished for things someone else did to him. We are pretty open about pornography, and everything else. But he certainly can't tell the difference between finding someone attractive and actually cheating. I never voice my opinion about someone elses looks. Just opens a can of worms that can't be closed.

On a positive note I asked if we could do something special tonight so that we can try and reconnect. I don't even know if emotional connection is possible but I'm gonna try. He goes from wonderful to a nightmare, it's two different people and can switch himself in a split second.

I think I stay because I know nothing else.

[Grey Kitty]

He won't even allow me to bring up the point that what he was doing was completely creepy. He keeps going back and forth from being ok to accusing me.

He won't "let" you bring up the point.
He won't agree that what he was doing was creepy. FHI, I don't think it was creepy. To me creepy just means unpleasant without being harmful, and I think this was abusive and harmful, rather than merely creepy.

And he will continue to do this sort of thing, as he has been, maybe in waves that come and go a bit, until you refuse to accept it. Until you enforce a boundary that you will not be treated that way.

On a positive note I asked if we could do something special tonight so that we can try and reconnect. I don't even know if emotional connection is possible but I'm gonna try.

I can really understand why you want this with him. I'd want connection in my marriage too.

I am wondering what you really expect to get from him by asking at a time like this? I don't recall his style specifically, but with most pwBPD, I'd expect this kind of request to result in something like A: Totally ignoring it; B: Flaking out at the last minute after making plans; C: Full dysregulation, blaming you.

  I hope it goes better than that.

[Notwendy]

IMHO lack of emotional connection is part of the problem.

I do understand my H's fear that I'd cheat and his jealousy when he sees ( or imagines ) me talking to other people I am close to. He's gotten upset after seeing me speak to an old male ( platonic ) friend- in a group situation- with my H present.

I think we are capable of a sort of connection with others- male and female-  but that isn't cheating. One of the things that attracted my H to me was my openness and vulnerability- but it seemed over time that when I tried to emotionally connect with him- it was one way. I'd express my feelings- but there was little reciprocity. I'd say " I wish we could talk more- really talk" and that would lead to a circular argument, after which he'd say " See we are talking- we talked for 45 minutes".

I know some of this can be a Venus and Mars thing- but it is hard for me to connect with my H on a more deeper level. He could discuss the news, politics, for hours. To him that is talking. He might ask "how are you feeling". I could tell him, then ask him how he is feeling, but the reply would likely be "ok" and nothing else. Now, I just say "ok" as well. Saying more feels like I am just talking into space- or that he enjoys this as a spectator, not a participant.

But I still have that ability to connect with others- with appropriate boundaries. I can see where it upsets my H to see me connect with a friend, yet, I would do it with him- if I could. I just don't know if it is possible. I have wondered if he is withholding this type of conversation on purpose or just isn't capable. He has a great superficial persona- but when it comes down to really personal things- I don't know what is going on beneath that.

Your H may be jealous and fearful of your connections to other people -even if there is no cheating. But I don't think the solution is to not have friends. I find those connections to be important to me.

[Notwendy]

Lockjaw- I think we all look to some extent. We are wired to do that, to propagate the species. However, because we aim to be better than just biological creatures- and wish for values like fidelity, we don't act on the looking.

Attractive people are noticeable. It's the basis of the advertising industry, fashion, beauty products. Movie stars are attractive for a reason. We like to look at them.

I think emotionally mature adults realize this and aren't threatened by it. Yet, there needs to be boundaries too. I wouldn't want to be with someone who was always gawking, compared me to airbrushed supermodels, or preferred looking instead of being with me, but I think we all would notice an attractive person.

[waverider]

We just went through a few weeks of extreme paranoid delusions/psychosis where she was seeing and believing things that weren't there and in the cold light of logic clearly impossible. But to her they were as real as the nose on her face.

Luckily this has now passed and the accusations were so ridiculous we can both talk and joke about it. At the time though it gets very offensive being interrogated about why is this left like that, why has that moved there, who touched this, why did it take you 5 seconds more at the shop... etc

Arguing gets you nowhere, only firm reassurance and continuing to be yourself gets you through, all other approaches simply derail you, and you end up joining the carnage of a tortured mind

[Notwendy]

One my H saw a picture in a school yearbook of a crush I had as a teen and accused me of betraying his trust.  Honestly, I had forgotten about it. I never dated the boy. It was just a teen crush. I don't even think he knew I had a crush on him. I'm sure I wrote some teen age emotional thing about him,  but it was years before I met my H.

I recall crying, JADEing, pleading him to understand that I had forgotten the crush. I could understand that he may feel some jealousy reading that his wife had feelings for someone when he saw it, but he didn't take into account that it was years before I met him.  Despite my pleading or trying to reason, he was convinced I had wronged him somehow.

As WW said, it may not make logical sense. But my H is usually so rational, I really began to second guess myself and feel I did something wrong, even it it didn't make sense to me.

[orderline]

Dear Cloudy Days,

I am speechless too.

Step one is to not take part in intimidating activities created by a mind full of fear.

Ignore bad ideas and promote the ones created from bright thinking. Shift the focus from making you the problem to him figuring out how to live with fear of abandonment and being replaced.

Find out what is his fear and do simple exercices like one of you leaving the room for 1 minute and discuss what it feelt like. Try to create intentional abandonment and distrust and find out where thinking is distorted.

In an open field have the "cheating" person be visible but far away talking in the phone. What does it feel like not knowing who and what the subject is?


This is facing the fear


 

[Cloudy Days]

I had a rough weekend. Just when he would calm down and I thought things would be ok for awhile he would start back up again. If he got frustrated with anything it would trigger him into the other thought process of thinking I was cheating on him. We did sort of connect on Friday but it was immediately met with a blow up. His emotions were like a yoyo all weekend going from ok to pissed off.

I honestly would not be surprised if this is what ended our marriage. The problem is that he did hear something on the recording that sounds incriminating. He can't unhear it and he keeps obsessing over it. Since I know how his mind works I know this is not easy for him to just trust me when I say that's not what it sounds like. He has convinced himself this is me cheating on him. His device malfunctioned so he can't keep listening to it at least. I got blamed for that too because it stopped working when I asked to listen to it. But now I'm sure he is going to magnify what it is that he actually heard.

This has all been an emotional roller coaster and I just want to get off.

[Lockjaw]

Lockjaw- I think we all look to some extent. We are wired to do that, to propagate the species. However, because we aim to be better than just biological creatures- and wish for values like fidelity, we don't act on the looking.

Attractive people are noticeable. It's the basis of the advertising industry, fashion, beauty products. Movie stars are attractive for a reason. We like to look at them.

I think emotionally mature adults realize this and aren't threatened by it. Yet, there needs to be boundaries too. I wouldn't want to be with someone who was always gawking, compared me to airbrushed supermodels, or preferred looking instead of being with me, but I think we all would notice an attractive person.

You know what? I know they are fake airbrushed models, and that it isn't reality. After my first divorce I was chatty with a woman who worked here in a cosmetic store and she got to meet Nicole Kidman. She said she looks nothing in person like on TV.

And for me, quite honestly, I am not perfect, so I can't and don't expect that out of who I am with. One of the things I love about my GF is to me, she is hot as fire, and while she doesn't seem to think so, I remind her often she is. I love how she feels, and she hates herself because she was so athletic when younger, and not as firm. I don't mind that, honestly.

You don't have to be perfect, you can just present yourself in a positive way. Wear clothes that are more flattering. Have a current looking hair style. Things like that.

Back to the original thread. Has he had a GF cheat on him before? My wife did. Really I think I could have proven my second wife did as well, at least according to what the state says. She was alone with a man in his home, who was my friend, more than once. So it wasn't appropriate behavior. The rule the PI's told me here was alone in a motel room, apt, house, or something like that for more than an hour, on two different occasions constitutes adultery, if it is a person of the opposite sex, and not your spouse.

My GF is also quite attractive, she gets approached often, and carries a gun.

Just a thought. Here a lie detector exam is $400. I wonder if you got one, would he accept that and give you some grace after? If not, I think you will have a lifetime of misery. It gets old to get accused of doing stuff you don't do. I kinda like the opportunity to do it if I am gonna be accused of it, if you know what I mean. Not that I would cheat, but... .it gets old.

[Grey Kitty]

This has all been an emotional roller coaster and I just want to get off.

It is his roller coaster. You keep getting on for the ride.

Nothing much is going to change other than it getting gradually worse in general, and the accusations being particularly bad for the immediate future unless you do something different.

I'd suggest you start enforcing two boundaries. If you do this consistently it will change things:

1. I will not listen to unfounded accusations that I am cheating.
2. I will not be spied upon by somebody who is in a r/s with me that should include respect and trust.

The first one because listening to these rages and accusations is destructive to you (Note how you are feeling!), and not good for your husband either (Note that he's not getting it out of his system and acting better!)

The second one because it is just inviting these dysregulations and attacks. If you let him keep spying, sooner or later he will see SOMETHING, and miss-interpret it as you cheating. Again.

When you say "I don't have anything to hide" and let him plant bugs, look at your phone or email, etc, what is happening? What are the real results?

It isn't him realizing you have nothing to hide and that he should trust you!

All you are doing is helping him build a minefield of future dysregulations.

If you do these things, your marriage will change. First you will get an extinction burst. (Might as well do it now and get it over with; he's already that upset ) Second, he will have to choose whether to trust you or not. His choice. He might decide he can't and leave. Or he might decide he can and stay, and stop pushing you this way.

My take is that you win either way in the end.

Or buy a season pass for that roller coaster.