How am I supposed to feel?

[vortex of confusion]

I keep coming back to the question of "How am I supposed to feel?"

The reason that I keep coming back to this question is that there are times when it all seems so overwhelming and surreal.

When I was still living with ex and posting on these boards, somebody told me that I hadn't even begun to process what all has happened. I didn't understand what they meant. Now, I completely understand. Ex has been out of the house for 9 months and I am pretty certain that he isn't coming back. When he first left, I was relieved and it felt like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders. I spent a lot of time rearranging the house. I lost about 50 pounds. I made some big changes in how the kids and I did things. I have a job interview for a full time job this week. Progress has been slow but it is there.

Now that the kids and I are settling into life without him, it seems like all of these feelings are coming up. Some of the stuff from early in our marriage is coming up and it almost feels like it was yesterday. Ex was forced to resign from his job because he got caught looking at porn at work. I got the dreaded "we need to talk" call. I knew that ex was looking at porn excessively when we got married and when we were in grad school. He claimed that he had stopped and I believed him. I couldn't find any vestiges of it on our home computer. I had no reason to believe that he was lying. I had no reason to think that he was sneaking around looking at porn. But, he was. He was sneaking into a back room at work and looking at porn. My initial reaction was upset and anger. I felt betrayed. I don't remember what he said or did specifically. I just remember feeling like I had nothing to be upset by. I am not the one that lost a job. I was just a bystander and I had no reason to be upset with him. He somehow managed to trump anything that I was feeling.

He went to one SA meeting and came home and we talked about it. He wasn't like those guys. I don't remember all of the specifics of that. What I do remember specifically was that the pain and hurt and betrayal that I felt at the time was not acknowledged. I wasn't supposed to be hurt or upset. I am not the one that lost the job. I am not the one that had an addiction. If he was a sex addict, then I was supposed to magically stop being hurt about anything he did. It wasn't his fault. It was the addictions fault. So, I went from being upset and hurt to having compassion for him and his struggles. I agreed to stay with him and stand by him. I made a choice to be with him. He said he didn't need SA. He said that he and I could get through it all together. Well, together meant that I got to be his sponsor. We worked out this deal where I would periodically ask him when was the last time he looked at porn. The agreement was that I would ask and he would answer honestly and I would promise not to get upset no matter what the answer was. That went on for a whole lot of years. I would ask the question and would brace myself for the answer. I was always afraid that it would be a different answer. It was painful for me to live like that for so many years. He wasn't looking at porn or doing anything like that, however, I still lived in fear that I would get another call because he was looking at work again. I lived in fear of not being able to keep him happy. If I couldn't keep him happy, then he would resort to that stuff again.

To add insult to injury, I told somebody about the porn stuff and was told, "Oh, my husband does that too. It's no big deal. I didn't mind because that meant that he left me alone." Ex used to tell me that he couldn't keep up with me. No, he couldn't keep up with me because he was taking care of himself and when we were together it was all about him and his pleasure.

How can I not feel rejected by his behavior? He would tell me over and over stuff that implied that I was crazy for feeling rejected. He would tell me how much he loved me and wanted me yet would reject me in a million small ways. If I didn't respond to an email or text or include him in things, he would feel rejected and get upset. He could choose porn, games, other women, and whatever else, and I wasn't supposed to feel rejected. I wasn't supposed to feel rejected when he would go back and forth between saying he loved me and wanted to work on things and then a week or two later telling me how great some other person was and how this other person really got him going.

All of this stuff (and more) is coming up and I am trying to process it and let myself feel it. As I am thinking back on all of this, I am remembering the times when he acted like my reactions and feelings were completely unwarranted and were out of line. I didn't leave him in the beginning. I stood by him. I had compassion for him. I might have gotten mad initially. When I would try to talk to him and share my feelings with him, I would get stuff like, "this isn't easy for me either." He can't handle a day or two with the kids yet expects me to take care of everything on my own without being upset or tired. It feels like I am supposed to put on a smile and say thank you and take whatever. He had the nerve to tell me that I am not being fair. I am not being fair?

Seriously? How is it fair that he presented himself as somebody that was religious? How is it fair to me that his sex addiction pretty much ruled our marriage? I didn't get a choice in any of this. I didn't knowingly choose this. I thought I was marrying a man that had strong family values. I thought I was marrying a man that wanted to be a dad as much as I wanted to be a mom.

When I got pregnant with our last two kids, I expressed concern over how we were going to handle another child. He assured me that it would all be okay. He and I would work together. Blah, blah, blah. When I got overwhelmed and needed help because I was doing pretty much everything, he acted like I was being demanding. All I wanted was an occasional nap. All I wanted was to be able to go to the thrift store or some other place to get some time to recollect myself. No, he couldn't do that. What he could do was send me off to a cheap hotel to be with some random guy. How am I supposed to feel about that? How in the world can he do such things and still expect me to respect him? How can he do that and then look at me like I am crazy when I get mad and lash out? How? How am I supposed to feel about any of this?

[Kyanite]

Hi Vortex,
I don't think there is a way you are "supposed" to feel. One of the things Inhave had to learn in my last few years of therapy is that feelings aren't right or wrong. There may be right and wrong ways to express them, but the feelings themselves just are.

So let yourself feel. Maybe look into finding a therapist or counselor if you don't already- many large churches have faith-based counselors that work with you for free or on a sliding scale. Most counties have similar resources.

Kyanite

[purekalm]

First of all, that's awesome you were able to accomplish so much in only nine months! 

Second, wow, so much of what you've written relates to my own situation.

I obviously don't have the answers but for me, in regards to your question How am I suppose to feel? I say, exactly what you have been feeling. When you get a chance to be alone or with a counselor let all the rejection, anger, disappointment, disgust, resentment, sadness, everything, let it all come up and cry or talk or rage, write a letter and burn it. Something to let all the initial feelings you've held onto so long come out. You or a a counselor can validate that yes you are allowed to feel this way, it's ok and natural.

Because he could not or would not deal with the pain he caused you he turned it around to what he could think about, his own pain. Yes, it definitely takes time and it won't all be over in an instant. Just like the weight that lifted off of you when he left, letting yourself feel will do the same. I'm sorry you have to do this all on your own vortex. Caring for four children while being the only parent even though the other still exists is extremely difficult in itself, let alone trying to deal with your pain as well. I hope that things continue to turn around for you so you don't have to feel so burdened. 

[vortex of confusion]

One of the things Inhave had to learn in my last few years of therapy is that feelings aren't right or wrong. There may be right and wrong ways to express them, but the feelings themselves just are.

Thanks for the reminder! I have a couple of friends in real life that remind me of this quite often. Feelings are illogical. There is no right way to feel.

When people get frustrated and impatient with me for not nailing him to the wall, I find myself wondering, "How do I turn off caring about him?" I was doing the math and I spent about as much of my life living with him as I did with my parents. Close to half of my life was spent with that man. We have 4 kids together. I can't just go file for divorce or take some kind of permanent action just yet because I don't want to do anything permanent until I process some of this stuff.

I don't know how to express my feelings about some of this stuff. I don't know what a right or wrong way to express them is. I was sharing with a friend that I have been a jerk to ex lately. I have picked a few fights with him. And I have said some pretty mean, but very true stuff, to him. I enjoy being a jerk to him lately. For a while, I would make excuses for behaving badly and picking fights with him. Now, I see it for what it was/is. It is very much like BPD where I want/need to get some of this pain out. I used to bottle it up. Now, I try to target it at him because HE is the one that couldn't hear me. He is the one that told another man, "Sure, you can be intimate with my wife. You won't regret it. You will have fun."

He is the one that couldn't hear me when I tried to talk to him directly. He would claim that he couldn't hear me. Let me go talk to my mom or a friend on the phone and he could hear every word I said. And, he would interject if I said anything that caught his attention. Heck, I couldn't even have a private conversation with the kids when he was in the house. I could be in the oldest daughter's room talking to her about whatever it is teens talk about and he would storm in and want to know why we were talking about him or whatever it was we were talking about. He would somehow find a way to interrupt all of my conversations. My family stopped calling if they knew he was home.

I had zero privacy. It felt like he was trying to invade my thoughts at times. I know that sounds crazy and paranoid. I don't know how else to feel when somebody has to comment on my facial expressions. I could be reading something funny online and laugh out loud and he would want to know what it was. If I expressed any kind of negativity, he would ask what was wrong and say stuff like, "What did I do this time?"

That has confused the heck out of me. Yes, I would ask him to do stuff and get frustrated with him when he ignored me, would do a crappy job, or flat out didn't do it. Yes, I would get angry when he would do the dishes and they would be dirty and then get mad at the kids and I because it grossed us out to get a glass of milk and have something float to the top because he didn't get the dishes clean. How was I supposed to feel about a grown man doing that? I stopped asking him to do dishes to put an end to that fight. But, it came at a cost. That was one more thing on my list of things to do.

I was on a forum about how to improve a relationship for normal couples and one of the things was, "If your husband keeps messing up the same things over and over, stop asking him to do those things. If your husband comes from home and wants a beer or a sandwich, get it for him. Don't get caught up in gender roles or stereotypes. Turn towards your partner and find ways to make their life easier/better." I did all of those things and then some yet he acted like I was a nitpicking nag. I couldn't express any kind of negative thought without him taking it as I was being a nitpicking nag. Our house needed a roof since we bought it. He called a couple of people and that was it. He let it slide. When it started leaking after 10 or so years, I made arrangements to get the roof replaced. And that made him made because "I was going to do it. You never give me a chance to do anything."

He hasn't had a job in a year and acts like I am being unreasonable for getting impatient with him. When he acts like I am being so unreasonable, I find myself asking, "How am I supposed to feel? You haven't had a job in a year. I can't rely on you for child care. I can't rely on you for much of anything. I am working two part time jobs and caring for the kids. How much more patient do I need to be? How much nicer can I be? My patience and ability to be nice are very, very thin. If I snap, I am going to make sure that all of my upset is targeted at him because that is where it belongs.

[vortex of confusion]

First of all, that's awesome you were able to accomplish so much in only nine months! 

Thank you! I am so scared for my interview later this week. My friends in real life don't understand why I might be so scared or nervous. They all tell me they believe in me and are giving me great information. I posted a pic of me in the interview outfit I selected to make sure that it was appropriate. My fellow mom friends were rather quick to respond and give me feedback.

The process of going on an interview for a full time job is a big step in taking back my life. To me, it is kind of symbolic. It almost feels like giving him the finger. I want to rub his nose in the fact that I have only applied for 3 jobs in a short period. I had one phone interview and now I have an in person interview. That is a pretty good response rate. He keeps feeding me crap about why he doesn't have a job. Even if I don't get the job, it still feels a bit like giving him the middle finger. He put up obstacles for me every which way I turned. I wanted to go back to school and get a Ph.D. and his biggest concern was "what about the kids". When I got my current part time job, his biggest concern was "what about my meetings". And when he left, he didn't ask how I was going to take care of the kids. He left and went two states away. Guess what, the girls and I figured it out on our own.

It feels like he is trying to break me. And I love the fact that I haven't broken. There are times when it feels like he is doing some of the stuff he is doing just to see how far he can push me until I become the raging jerk that he has made me out to be. Then, he can revel in his abandon because it will be all my fault.

When you get a chance to be alone or with a counselor let all the rejection, anger, disappointment, disgust, resentment, sadness, everything, let it all come up and cry or talk or rage, write a letter and burn it. Something to let all the initial feelings you've held onto so long come out. You or a a counselor can validate that yes you are allowed to feel this way, it's ok and natural.

My commute to work has been great for this. Put on some music that I know will make me cry and let myself cry. Really, that is what I need more than anything. I need to hear that it is okay to feel this stuff even if it is messy and confusing. I have spent so long having people question why I might feel bad/mad/angry/sad/whatever. It has been confusing and frustrating.

When I find myself in a situation where somebody, usually ex, is acting like my feelings are ridiculous or unwarranted I ask "How am I supposed to feel?" Sometimes I ask him. Most of the time I ask it of myself. How would most other people feel in this situation? Would most people be upset and hurt or would most people laugh it off and be okay with it? When I look at it like that, it is seems to lean pretty heavily towards "I am letting him off really, really easy." I am NOT the monster that he says I am. Yes, I can be sarcastic and spirited and a whole lot of things. I am not some kind of big fat meanie that is sitting around waiting to criticize him. I gave that man so much friggin' praise and reassurance. You would think he would be able to conquer anything by now. He is a black hole. No amount of thanking him or praising him was enough. It was painful to have to thank him for doing something that I do on a routine basis without ever being thanked at all.

I'm sorry you have to do this all on your own vortex. Caring for four children while being the only parent even though the other still exists is extremely difficult in itself, let alone trying to deal with your pain as well. I hope that things continue to turn around for you so you don't have to feel so burdened. 

Thank you for this! I do have some great friends for support. The stuff that I share here isn't stuff I can share with some of them. With most people, I bring up his not working and our basic incompatibility.

I know things will continue to turn around. I have started to reach out to more of my mom friends. I don't need to tell them anything. I just tell them that ex and I are separated and I am trying to put the pieces back together. They have been really wonderful. Most of the burden comes from having to be so strong. I can't let the kids see some of this. They have their own stuff to work out. Since ex is out of the house, I am finding out that they kids were walking on eggshells too. The kids felt as abandoned and rejected as I did. The kids and I have had some conversations that were really difficult for me to hear. What they said was the truth. No matter what they say, I need to hear them and validate them and let them know that this house is safe now. I have to stand strong in their storm. They are kids. They didn't ask for this.

[Kyanite]

You are so strong, and the way you are committed to hearing and validating your kids will help them so much with their healing. It's so great to hear that you have a good support network! I can only imagine the challengesof being a single parent- as 1 of 4, I could not see that having worked in our house (of course, my mom seems to have had a lot of BPD traits, so that's a bit different... .)

It sounds like your (ex?)husband might have some NPD traits, too. Good luck with that... .Good thing you are already out.  

Good luck with your interview!

[heartandwhole]

Hi vortex,

I'd like to join the other members who posted and say, "Well done!"  Your rapid progress is inspiring. And I'm not surprised that things are coming up after 9 months. In my experience, it takes time for the body/mind to catch up after a major stressor like you've had.

I echo the others in that if you can find a counselor or pastor to talk to, it might help to let out all these very legitimate feelings that you have to a caring ear.

In my view, your feelings are absolutely reasonable, warranted, appropriate, and valid.  It sounds like your needs were often shoved aside in favor of your ex's. Now, you have the opportunity to put yourself first. But I also would like to see you and your feelings affirmed and supported. We do that here, of course, and I'm glad you have friends you can count on.

Keep that circle of support close, and drink in the acceptance. You deserve loads.  

heartandwhole

[purekalm]

Yeah, they try to twist it all the time because they can't handle the truth of the matter. Which is, in nine months you were able to achieve more and get healthier (mentally and physically) for your family and it probably hurts his pride that you did it alone. I echo Kyanite, "you are so strong". 

That's great you can cry it out. It really does help, especially when you hold nothing back. It hurts, because you wanted life with him, and now you're doing great without him. He did some awful things, but you loved him and did more than you could've for him, so the pain is very real. 

I understand that you have to be strong for your kids. I've said the same thing that you've said "My son didn't ask to be born, it's not fair for him to have to go through this." Just make sure there is someone, or multiple someone's that you can be vulnerable and weak with, so you can renew your strength. This is where I struggle. It's much easier to keep it together when you can let it all fall apart without them knowing. It's a wonderful feeling to have a safe house, one where you can relax and be yourself, and you're the one that gave it to them.    The truth is definitely hard to hear, but you're proving to them that they can come to you and tell you anything, which won't just be valuable now, but also down the road.

You should be proud of yourself, you're nowhere near a monster, but a loving, caring person and mother. 

[vortex of confusion]

Yeah, they try to twist it all the time because they can't handle the truth of the matter. Which is, in nine months you were able to achieve more and get healthier (mentally and physically) for your family and it probably hurts his pride that you did it alone. I echo Kyanite, "you are so strong". 

I felt like any successes I had hurt his pride. I know that there were times when he said he felt like I was putting him down with my successes. I was better with the kids than he was. He hated that I made everything look so easy. The truth is that I worked my butt off for it. If I wanted or needed something, I researched and tried to find ways to do what I wanted/needed with the resources that I had. He would complain about me not giving him a chance. I would try to make myself smaller and smaller. I would give him chance after chance to do things. I tried to set him up for success. He would act like I was a nag if I brought things up too much. If I am such a nag, then how is it that I gave him 10 years to get a roof on our house. It wasn't until it started leaking that I took matters into my own hands.

Just make sure there is someone, or multiple someone's that you can be vulnerable and weak with, so you can renew your strength.

I don't find strength by being vulnerable and weak. I find strength the most when I am able to set and accomplish goals. I felt strong when I looked at the scales and realized how much weight I had lost. I felt strong when I applied for a job and was given an interview. I felt really good about being able to go into the interview and walk away feeling like I nailed it.

I have to get out and interact with others and do stuff and accomplish stuff. I don't do well when I spend too much time focusing on what is wrong. I tend to be a positive person and I am trying to focus more on what is right with me. Ex said and did things that continually eroded my confidence and had me making myself smaller and smaller so he didn't feel so bad about himself.

I think that is what sparked this thread. I am trying to identify my weaknesses so I can address them. At the same time, I need to try to find what is good about myself and build on that. When I found these forums, I felt like I had BPD because I had done a lot of the things mentioned. I did have some of the feelings that were described as being indicative of BPD. The more I research, read, and think, the more I realize that my poor behaviors were not part of a pervasive pattern. They were a reaction to a messed up situation.

I ran across an article about poverty the other day. It caught my attention because it also describes some of how I was feeling while living with ex. The full article is: www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

The quote that caught my attention was:

"You have no idea how strong the pull to feel worthwhile is. It’s more basic than food. You go to these people who make you feel lovely for an hour that one time, and that’s all you get. You’re probably not compatible with them for anything long-term, but right this minute they can make you feel powerful and valuable. It does not matter what will happen in a month. Whatever happens in a month is probably going to be just about as indifferent as whatever happened today or last week. None of it matters. We don’t plan long-term because if we do we’ll just get our hearts broken. It’s best not to hope. You just take what you can get as you spot it."

Before ex, I feel like I did a lot of great things. I overcame situations and found creative ways to get stuff done. I lost my ability to do that with ex. I no longer felt worthwhile because my attempts to plan long term were thwarted. My desire to grow as a family and as an individual were met with reasons that we couldn't do it. My daughter was sharing with me that she was cooking herself some eggs one time and dad had to come over and start talking about salmonella. He tended to find small ways to find reasons not to do anything. The kids and I ended up being scared of our own shadows at times. That is NOT okay.

I was so scared going into my interview yesterday. On my drive over there, I found strength by telling myself. Who cares what the outcome is? What is the worst that can happen? I don't get the job. This is nothing like having my husband encourage me to drive across town to meet some loser at a hotel. I WAS putting myself in a potentially dangerous situation by doing that and he encouraged it. Yesterday, I was going to a job interview to talk to people that wanted to hear my ideas and get to know me as a person rather than just a piece of meat. So, there was nothing to be afraid of. Having that thought on my drive over was a real lightning bulb moment for me. Even if I was a b***h to him, that didn't justify him doing what he did.

In looking back, I can see where I submitted to him. That made things worse. I didn't stand up and get "crazy" until it became obvious that he was trying to suck the kids and I into his world. At that point, I stood up and fought. I felt bad for fighting because it had all of the earmarks of "She is crazy." I wasn't crazy. I was fighting for my sanity and I was fighting for my kids and that is NOT crazy. That is probably the most normal thing I have done in years.

[Kyanite]

Quote:
In looking back, I can see where I submitted to him. That made things worse. I didn't stand up and get "crazy" until it became obvious that he was trying to suck the kids and I into his world. At that point, I stood up and fought. I felt bad for fighting because it had all of the earmarks of "She is crazy." I wasn't crazy. I was fighting for my sanity and I was fighting for my kids and that is NOT crazy. That is probably the most normal thing I have done in years.


(Didn't use quote function because I'm on my phone)

Exactly this! You are not crazy, and nothing you did is. His response to it was crazy, but you are protecting yourself and your children. You did great!

[purekalm]

The truth is that I worked my butt off for it.

Exactly! While you both may have different skill sets, YOU took action and accomplished what you needed and he chose not to. That's one thing I always told my husband. Everyone has choices, and difficult though things can be, we choose what we do with it and need to take the responsibility for it whether good or bad.

I don't find strength by being vulnerable and weak. I find strength the most when I am able to set and accomplish goals.

Yes, everyone should feel strong when they are accomplishing goals they've set themselves. I feel the same way. 

I didn't exactly word that right before. What I meant was, being strong is being able to know your weaknesses and lean on others when you need them. Just like you are, with your mom friends, asking for advice about your outfit, letting yourself feel, cry and heal while in your car and writing here to let out the rest of what you can't say so that you can feel whole and strong instead of stuffing it all and trying to do it all completely alone. I hope I made more sense this time. Sorry about that!

In looking back, I can see where I submitted to him. That made things worse. I didn't stand up and get "crazy" until it became obvious that he was trying to suck the kids and I into his world. At that point, I stood up and fought. I felt bad for fighting because it had all of the earmarks of "She is crazy." I wasn't crazy. I was fighting for my sanity and I was fighting for my kids and that is NOT crazy. That is probably the most normal thing I have done in years.

I know the feeling. At first they like your drive and accomplishments and then they begin getting comparing yours to theirs and the inferiority starts so they become controlling and demeaning until they've got you in a position where you're no longer yourself and even if you aren't scared of them you're tired of fighting every. little. thing. It all goes downhill from there, like you know. I'm glad that you know now that you're nowhere near crazy, but a person deserving of respect and good mom who loves and protects her children.   

I'm glad you posted for my own selfish reasons, because it's helped me see and think about some things in my own situation. I appreciate your honesty and I hope you get that job! 

[marion1]

Sounds like all the thoughts of the past could be normal processing and might be a little PTSD from it.  Time will heal.  Your story sounds a bit like mine on its worst days.  I'm still in my marriage and right now things are OK but I'm now convinced he has BPD traits.  The crazy-making and crazing-calling is the worst. I've been able to get some progress on home upkeep issues and I'm working on being more mindful of my own part in the dysfunctional dance.  Hang in there.  Your kids need a strong mom. 

[vortex of confusion]

Exactly! While you both may have different skill sets, YOU took action and accomplished what you needed and he chose not to. That's one thing I always told my husband. Everyone has choices, and difficult though things can be, we choose what we do with it and need to take the responsibility for it whether good or bad.

I don't know how many times I tried to emphasize that over the years. I would tell him to stop trying to be like me. I remember oe time when I was trying to get more help around the house. I was like, "Ok, so you aren't good at doing dishes. Big deal. What are you good at? What do you enjoy doing?" I tried to make deliberate choices to encourage him to use his strengths. There were times when I would step aside and say, "I am not too good at this. Can you do it?" Or, I would encourage the kids to go to him for things and say, "That is dad's thing. Dad is way better at that than me."

And there were times when I chose to do things that I didn't like because that is what adults do. They take responsibility. Sometimes, that requires taking one for the team. I can see that I got really tired because it felt like I was the one that was continually taking one for the team. With 4 kids, there is a lot of negotiation that happens in an attempt to make sure that everyone's needs were met. He wasn't stepping up and being a part of the negotiations. He was a part of the problem. It felt like it became a situation where it was me trying to keep everyone regulated at happy. I don't know of anyone that could do that for as long as I did without getting tired and losing their minds to a degree.

Even now, I have had people comment on how well I am doing given the circumstances. Yes, things are a mess at home because I am having to undo a lot of the negativity and walking on eggshells. The girls and I are getting better because there isn't an adult here that is acting like a child and undermining my attempts to get stuff together.

What I meant was, being strong is being able to know your weaknesses and lean on others when you need them.

Absolutely! Growing up, my dad used to say, "It isn't always what you know that is important. Sometimes it is about who you know." I saw my parents consulting with others when there was something they didn't know or needed help with. Even now, it seems like everyone in my FOO has certain skills and we know that we can lean on each other if we need help. If my brother needs computer help, he comes to me. If my parents need help researching something, they come to me. If I have car troubles, I go to my brother. It is knowing that there are things that I can't do and that I need help. I think ex really undermined that because he would rarely reach out to others. I would tell him, "Hey, you should ask so and so about that." And he wouldn't.

Because he wasn't there when I needed him, I got the message loud and clear that nobody was going to be there when I needed them. I feel like the things that I needed most were things that only he could give me because they were HIS responsibility. Also, he seemed to resent when I would go to others for help. I heard "I could have done that" or "You didn't give me a chance" all too often. Maybe he would have been happier if I hadn't been able to seek out other people's advice. There are times that I have to chuckle because (I am one that tends to find the humor in things) because I used the very sick things that he encouraged as a way to get outside opinions. When he and I were emailing others, he didn't realize that I spent more time talking about him and how to be a better wife, etc. I was getting advice more than I was trying to find a hook up. I don't know how many people told me that what he was doing was not okay on any planet.

At first they like your drive and accomplishments and then they begin getting comparing yours to theirs and the inferiority starts so they become controlling and demeaning until they've got you in a position where you're no longer yourself and even if you aren't scared of them you're tired of fighting every. little. thing.

Thank you for this! That nails it. Ex LOVED the fact that I am such a strong woman. When we were dating, one of his friends told him that I was too much woman for him to handle. He used to recall that so fondly and puff up his chest with pride over that.

When I stood up to his mom one time, he was like, "You are the only person I have ever seen stand up to  my mom and have her back down." He hated that I made everything look so easy. People tend to like me because I am easy going and non-judgmental. I am a very approachable person, which works really well in my field. I can be in a grocery store and have a random stranger come up and ask my opinion on a diet or a meal. It blows my mind at times. When I go out with just me and the kids, the kids see it and comment on how different things are when it is me and them versus when it was us with dad.

He wasn't controlling or demeaning in a direct way. It was a thousand tiny comments. It was a thousand tiny questions sewing the seed of doubt. It was all of the pouting and huffing and puffing. It was the continual talking to him and telling him what I want/need only to be ignored. There was time when he grumbled about me not telling him what I want or need. Um, I would tell him what I wanted or needed and he wouldn't do it. I wasn't asking for much. Heck, the stuff I was wanting is stuff that most people do without much thought. There was one time that ex and I were out with a friend. I was getting drinks and juggling stuff for the kids. Ex's idea of helping was going to get a table and promptly sitting down and NOT helping because he just had to get a table and sit there so that nobody else got it. The friend came with me and helped with the drinks and the kids and I was all, "Wow, he is so awesome." When I find myself being tickled pink over the fact that somebody showed basic common courtesy, there is a problem. My standards were entirely too low. Trying to raise the bar a bit isn't indicative that I am a jerk or that I am demanding. It was indicative that I woke up realized that this wasn't working for me. I don't think any healthy or reasonable person would have been okay with it.

It was really easy to fall into the trap of thinking that my needs and wants didn't matter. He told me that in a thousand small ways without ever saying a direct word. He was pervasively invalidating. There was one time when I tried to explain to him about micromessages and how harmful they can be. He turned it around on me and said, "The fact that you are telling me this is a micromessage and you are doing what you told me I am doing." When I brought up the fact that he constantly interrupted me, he started pointing out that I was interrupting him. Forget that I was interrupting him so I could finish the thought that I started before he interrupted me. I don't know how anybody could deal with that stuff without losing a grip on reality.

Like you say, I wasn't scared of him at all. Yeah, he would puff up his chest and get intimidating at times. It was all an act. I wasn't scared of him in the least. I could get him to stand down. And that is part of what has had me so confused. How the heck could I go where I went? He wasn't scary. He wasn't making threats. At the end of the day, I could not tolerate one more childish outburst. I spent my days dealing with the kids and trying get them to learn stuff. I navigated melt downs and tantrums and typical kid stuff. I loved doing it. I loved the ability to be with my kids like that. However, at the end of the day, I was friggin' tired. Caring for 4 kids takes a lot of time and energy.

At the end of the day, the last thing I wanted to do was deal with a grown man acting like the kids had been acting all day. I didn't want to fight. I wanted a break. I wanted to be able to go soak in a tub and let him be on duty for a while. I wanted a soft place to fall after I had spent all of my reserves on the kids. It didn't happen. I would have liked to have him put the kids to bed without falling asleep and having the kids come get me anyway. He would come home from work and be so tired. Forget the fact that he worked at a desk job and was home by 4:30 or 5 every day but Friday. His work week was only 37 hours. He spent a lot of time at his desk listening to music and watching Youtube videos while he worked. I was on duty with the kids 24/7. I think it was okay for me tired and cranky at times. It was okay for me to need a break. It was okay for me to break down on occasion. The problem is that I was not given the time or the space to be human. I was only allowed to be super woman. I stepped up to the plate and managed rather well for a while. And then I didn't. I got sucked into a vortex of confusion and couldn't see straight or think straight because I was so friggin' tired. I felt alone. I didn't feel like I could go to anybody else for help because that might create even more problems. I felt like I was between a rock and a hard place.

Even though my FOO was dysfunctional, there were things about them that were good. When I got my own room for the first time as a teen, I would get hives at night because I was afraid to sleep alone. Mom would sit with me in the living room and talk to me. Over time, I got used to it. But, mom was there. My dad did physically demanding work. He would come in hot and sweaty and would watch TV with the family and joke with us. Even though I am an adult, I know that if my car broke down in the middle of the night, my dad would be there with a truck and trailer as soon as he could. The point is that I could depend on them to a certain degree even if they were as dysfunctional as the day is long. Ex resented that. It got to a point where my family stopped wanting to come over because ex just had this attitude about him. Nobody wanted to be around him. It is kind of ironic that now that he and I are separated, my family lets me include him in family get togethers so that he can hang out with the kids and have my family as a bit of a buffer.

I'm glad you posted for my own selfish reasons, because it's helped me see and think about some things in my own situation. I appreciate your honesty and I hope you get that job! 

I know my posts can be rather lengthy. One of the things that I have figured out about myself is that I am much better at communicating in writing. I don't feel like I am nearly as good at communicating in spoken word as I am written word. The physical act of writing/typing is as cathartic as what I am saying. I am glad that you are finding this helpful.

Oh, as an aside, I am tickled pink because I was contacted for yet another interview. So far, the three jobs that I have applied for that are actual positions in my field have contacted me for interviews. I have had one phone interview, one in person interview, and was contacted yesterday for a phone interview at another place. Even if I don't get any of the jobs, it is a huge confidence boost to be getting noticed even though my resume is a bit paltry.

[heartandwhole]

Oh, as an aside, I am tickled pink because I was contacted for yet another interview. So far, the three jobs that I have applied for that are actual positions in my field have contacted me for interviews. I have had one phone interview, one in person interview, and was contacted yesterday for a phone interview at another place. Even if I don't get any of the jobs, it is a huge confidence boost to be getting noticed even though my resume is a bit paltry.

  Right on! Congrats, vortex.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm working on being more mindful of my own part in the dysfunctional dance.   

I have a thought about the dysfunctional dance. I spent a lot of time trying to identify my part of the dysfunctional dance. I have come to this place where I realize that the dysfunctional dance became more dysfunctional as I tried to assert boundaries and be more authentic about what I wanted and needed. No matter how many tools I tried to use to communicate with him and make things better, I continued to fall short. I feel like I was making extraordinary efforts to identify my dysfunction so I could make things better. Whether one or both of us is BPD is kind of irrelevant. There are things about ex that I am not okay with no matter how I try to package it. I cannot respect him or trust him. Those two things are essential in a relationship. I know that my lack of trust and respect came through no matter how hard I tried to mask it or change it. He was unable to do anything that might help me trust or respect him.

I feel like I was deluding myself into thinking that things would be okay if I could just figure out my part in things so I could change and be better. I was twisting myself into knots trying to NOT be dysfunctional. No matter how I slice it, there are things about me that are dysfunctional. I sometimes have this thought that is something along the lines of my dysfunction did not play well with his dysfunction. In order for ex and I to have a successful or healthy relationship, both of us would have to become completely different people. I can work at identifying my dysfunctions and working on them but they aren't likely to go away completely.

[vortex of confusion]

Last night, I found a box of stuff from when ex and I went to our marriage prep classes almost 20 years ago.

It was heart wrenching to read some of that stuff. It really helped me to understand why I feel so deceived and so raw about all of this.

In the exercises, I acknowledged my short comings. I acknowledged my fear of failure. I acknowledged that I like to be seen as strong. I acknowledged that I sometimes struggle with low self esteem and feelings of low self worth. I even acknowledged that I can sometimes be a pain in the butt. I didn't lie to him or myself about who I am. I knew what I needed to work on and was very honest about it.

In the exercises, he went on and on about how important it is to be faithful and honest and keep lines of communication open. It was all so positive and wonderful and was exactly what any woman would want to hear before getting married.

I have had a bit of a stunned feeling since reading that stuff last night. I find myself wondering: How am I supposed to feel about a man that presented himself as super religious, focused on his family, and went on and on about his vocation as a husband?

I know I wasn't perfect. I think that is what has kept me in the fog. I could see where I went wrong. I could see where I made things worse. I felt like admitting that I screwed up would some how make it all my fault. The truth is that it isn't my fault. I was honest and I tried to live out my values in marriage even when I did it imperfectly. I didn't pretend to be anything.

In reading that stuff, I realized just how far I had ventured away from who I am. I am still not sure who ex is. He says he loves his family so much yet he doesn't seem to be too interested in doing much to keep us. I feel like I am fighting for my family while he is sitting there doing whatever it is he is doing. I don't know how to fight for my family in a way that isn't messy. Is it possible to do any of this without it being messy?

[purekalm]

Hello again,

Some of the similarities in our situations still amazes me.

I can see that I got really tired because it felt like I was the one that was continually taking one for the team.

I understand you here. I have one child that has autism and when he was younger especially even my sister who has three kids would say it's like I had three or more!  It's the hyper-vigilance of taking care of a child that doesn't understand most dangers I assume. I can't imagine adding three more, one was hard enough for me. Hmm... we need an applaud button for you. 

He wasn't controlling or demeaning in a direct way. It was a thousand tiny comments. It was a thousand tiny questions sewing the seed of doubt. It was all of the pouting and huffing and puffing.

Yep, same here. The initial try was a little intimidation until he realized it wouldn't work and then it became the same as you so that over time I was worn down.

It was the continual talking to him and telling him what I want/need only to be ignored. There was time when he grumbled about me not telling him what I want or need. Um, I would tell him what I wanted or needed and he wouldn't do it. I wasn't asking for much. Heck, the stuff I was wanting is stuff that most people do without much thought.

I would have the same problem! He would be like 'but you're so complicated' just because I'm not really feminine and want jewelry and makeup and the easy things to buy a person off and do your own thing. I wanted commitment, love, trust, help. I wasn't asking him to make millions or go above and beyond, just the normal everyday things like actually giving a crap that my throat is so swollen I can barely open it instead of expecting me to carry on with taking care of my son and the house! Crazy stuff...

I know my posts can be rather lengthy. One of the things that I have figured out about myself is that I am much better at communicating in writing. I don't feel like I am nearly as good at communicating in spoken word as I am written word. The physical act of writing/typing is as cathartic as what I am saying. I am glad that you are finding this helpful.

That's ok, mine usually are too.   I feel the exact same way. I trip all over my words sometimes trying to talk to people, but on here I'm not already being judged by my looks and everything that goes with that so it's much easier to 'talk' and feels very freeing to get some of the stuff out of my head. 

Oh, as an aside, I am tickled pink because I was contacted for yet another interview.

That's awesome! I hope that you do get one of them for the sole fact that you will be happy, boost your confidence and help you to better financially take care of your family. I agree though that even if you don't, it's amazing that you're off to such a great start. 

He says he loves his family so much yet he doesn't seem to be too interested in doing much to keep us.

That's the same way my husband has been. In the few months he's been gone he ended up in a situation where the tables were turned on him and he's experienced much of what he's done to me and our son and it helped him to realize what nothing I said or did has, that he was a lazy and mean person that didn't help and left me with everything to myself. I don't know for sure if he's actually going to keep his word this time, time will tell. All I know is that marriage in general is not for the faint of heart because you're extremely close to someone who knows and can open your wounds. With someone who is disordered, it's a hundred times more difficult and painful.

Is it possible to do any of this without it being messy?

I don't know for sure since that depends on you and him.

For me, the best way was to stop helping him. I didn't nag, I took on all the responsibility without asking or expecting help, didn't remind him of anything because it's not my job. If he forgets or doesn't do something for our son for his birthday or Christmas, the entirety of that decision falls on HIS shoulders, NOT mine. He's an adult, and after a while of his crap I stopped treating him like one. It's pretty easy to lose respect and love for a man that acts like a child, and I unknowingly helped it along by trying to take the fall for him.

Will/did it hurt my son's feelings when he didn't do those things? Yes. Did I have to explain? Yes. But, you know what? I didn't feel responsible anymore. It was no longer MY fault that my son was hurting for something his dad did. Of course, I don't want him to experience any pain, but I won't help his dad look any better or worse than he already does. Kids know more than they tell or can explain and even with my son's limited ability at conversation, he can let me know what's going on when it's important. It's hard at times, because I hate to see my son suffer, but it gives his dad time to think and decide because I'm not reacting the way I used to so he's not in self defense mode. He has to actually consider his actions and what they've done if I'm not in regular contact with him or give him bare minimum details. If I ask him something to try to include him and he responds with something about himself or something like 'do what you want' I don't get upset. I assumed he would be that way so I let it go and am like, well, I don't have time to discuss that right now or ok, I'll do what I want and give you the details. He's an adult, he can choose just like me to be one or not.

Things have eased up some at the moment for me with him, but he knows that I don't trust or respect him right now and he's got to work at getting that together on his own. I'm not harsh, but I'm not lenient, and so far that has worked out pretty well. I can take whatever anger rises up from time to time and deal with it another way. It was a lot harder in the beginning, because I was so angry and felt so betrayed. I don't know if any of this is helpful, but I wanted to share what's worked for me thus far.

Take care and as my sisters would say 'keep on truckin!', because every mile is one step further from the darkness and one step closer to a brighter future. 

[vortex of confusion]

I understand you here. I have one child that has autism and when he was younger especially even my sister who has three kids would say it's like I had three or more!  It's the hyper-vigilance of taking care of a child that doesn't understand most dangers I assume. I can't imagine adding three more, one was hard enough for me.

There are days when the girls are easy and then there are days when it feels like I am surrounded by a house full of BPD. I had a friend make that joke one time when we were on the phone because it seemed like my entire day was spent soothing dysregulated people, ex included. That was the worst. It was like a chain reaction where he and the kids would set each other off and it went downhill from there. I can't believe how much easier it is to care for 4 kids on my own without him around. He used to make comments as though I couldn't do it without him.

The initial try was a little intimidation until he realized it wouldn't work and then it became the same as you so that over time I was worn down.

I have to remind myself that it took me 15 years to wear down.   For a whole lot of years, his stuff didn't phase me. I'd shrug it off or tell him to buzz off. After trying to take care of the kids all day, I didn't have it in me to stand up to him. It was easier to give in. It was easier to do it myself. If I had to deal with ONE more person giving me that look and getting huffy, I was going to scream. I was trying to teach the kids manners and politeness yet we would sit down to dinner and he would start eating before I could even sit down. It is pretty bad when the kids have to ask him to wait for mom.
 

I would have the same problem! He would be like 'but you're so complicated' just because I'm not really feminine and want jewelry and makeup and the easy things to buy a person off and do your own thing. I wanted commitment, love, trust, help. I wasn't asking him to make millions or go above and beyond, just the normal everyday things like actually giving a crap that my throat is so swollen I can barely open it instead of expecting me to carry on with taking care of my son and the house!

Are we twins?  You really get my struggles. For birthdays and other gift giving holidays, he would ask me what I wanted and my response was the same: a clean house. He and the kids might do a half azz job if they did it at all. One year he got me WHITE pajamas and didn't understand why I might not be too happy about it. Giving a stay at home mom any kind of lounge clothing that is white is baffling. I am a walking dirt magnet. Kids love to come up and rub their faces on you before you can say no. He has no idea why I might not be happy with white pajamas. I know I sound ungrateful and nitpicky. When I asked why he got white, he said it was because that is all they had. A lot of times, somebody will get something weird and when you ask what they were thinking it is usually for a very thoughtful and deliberate reason. I would have loved to hear, "I got you white pajamas because I plan on giving you a night off." Oh no, it was because they didn't have anything else and he didn't feel like going to another store. That is what he told me. How is one supposed to feel about that? It baffles me that he acted like I was so unreasonable and difficult.

I feel the exact same way. I trip all over my words sometimes trying to talk to people, but on here I'm not already being judged by my looks and everything that goes with that so it's much easier to 'talk' and feels very freeing to get some of the stuff out of my head.

The problem that I have in person is that it feels like I either overstate or understate things. I don't know how to describe some of the stuff that has happened without people thinking, "Oh no, you are such a victim. He is big and horrible and scary." No, the only thing I am a victim of is being too damned tired to think a coherent thought and make a decent decision. Yes, he took advantage of me but not through the usual means. It is kind of like the scene in the Wizard of Oz where the witch tells Dorothy, "You had the power all along." I had the power all along. I was too tired to use it or see it. I took the path of least resistance and woke up and had a "Holy crap" moment and wondered what the heck just happened.

That's the same way my husband has been. In the few months he's been gone he ended up in a situation where the tables were turned on him

That is eerily similar to what happened to ex (I refuse to refer to him as my husband). After he moved in with this guy, he would come over here and talk about how annoying that guy is. "He never stops talking and acts like he knows everything about everything. I can't get a word in edgewise."

I don't know for sure if he's actually going to keep his word this time, time will tell. All I know is that marriage in general is not for the faint of heart because you're extremely close to someone who knows and can open your wounds. With someone who is disordered, it's a hundred times more difficult and painful.

Ex told me that he found a counselor and is going to try to get an appointment. We will see if it happens.

I knew it wasn't for the faint of heart going in. I didn't have any kind of rosy expectations. In the classes we took before marriage, there was an old couple there that talked about how they lasted so long. They said that there might be times when the good feelings faded and you hated each other. And how it was a choice. Loving your partner is sometimes a choice to do the right thing even if you don't feel like it. I feel like I have lived that out and I continue to do so. All I wanted from ex was to make a choice to be a part of this family and take ownership of things. The way he pawned me off on other guys. It was like I was an old car or a video game. Here, play with it, have fun with it, you won't regret it. I don't know that I will ever get over that.

If he forgets or doesn't do something for our son for his birthday or Christmas, the entirety of that decision falls on HIS shoulders, NOT mine. He's an adult, and after a while of his crap I stopped treating him like one.

I am not quite there yet. For me, the help and the reminders are more about me and the fact that I do sometimes need help. There are still some things that he can do easier than me. I could do those things for myself. My attitude is "Why should I?" These are his kids too. I am not going to let him off the hook completely. If I am juggling 4 kids and I am tired from working, you can bet your butt I am going to ask him to do stuff. The funny thing is that now that he doesn't live here and doesn't have to deal with the kids, he helps rather eagerly. I asked him for help today because I heard something weird in the attic. He was here in 10 minutes.

Will/did it hurt my son's feelings when he didn't do those things? Yes. Did I have to explain? Yes. But, you know what? I didn't feel responsible anymore. It was no longer MY fault that my son was hurting for something his dad did.

When the kids ask questions and share their hurt, I tell them, "I know it hurts. Part of the reason I asked dad to leave is because I couldn't sit back and watch him do those things to you kids." My kids have it figured out better than I do some days. When they visit with dad, they want me here. And, they say that they can have good visits with dad if they think of him as a peer rather than a parent. All I could do was sigh and nod and agree that her approach sounded reasonable.

I'll do what I want and give you the details. He's an adult, he can choose just like me to be one or not.

That is pretty much how I approach everything these days. I make all of the decisions about everything and tell him what I am doing. Every now and then, I get mad and let him see my anger. Most days, I keep our interactions to a bare minimum.

I'm not harsh, but I'm not lenient

It feels like I am harsh. In reality, I am being more honest with him than I have ever been. I am no longer coddling him. I tell him that I am frustrated and angry. And, when he tries to tell me stuff like, "It's not fair" when it comes to some of the stuff, I tell him flat out, ":)on't tell me that this isn't fair." And then I proceed to tell him the things that he has done to me and the kids that aren't fair. It isn't accusatory or mean. It is flat out honest. It is more of "This is what you did. How am I supposed to feel?"

[purekalm]

Hey, 

I have to remind myself that it took me 15 years to wear down.   For a whole lot of years, his stuff didn't phase me. I'd shrug it off or tell him to buzz off.

Me too. I fell into a huge hole less then five months after my son was born with my son's injuries and cps and everything just blew up in my face and I was in shock and it's taken me years to get out of it. Like you, I just go tired. Striving with my son, with my family, with him, with cps, with myself, and I was just too worn. Looking back, without God I wouldn't be alive right now. It was so bad... .

Are we twins?  You really get my struggles.

 Besides going through it as a child with my dad as a udBPD I ended up marrying one or who is at least a lot like it. My dad is far worse. It's crazy that completely different people can have experienced so many of the same things. 

One year he got me WHITE pajamas and didn't understand why I might not be too happy about it. Giving a stay at home mom any kind of lounge clothing that is white is baffling. I am a walking dirt magnet. Kids love to come up and rub their faces on you before you can say no. He has no idea why I might not be happy with white pajamas.

 Exactly! What mom, unless she has a prefect house with kids who don't get messy, would want white?  Man. The last thing my h did before he left was Valentine's Day and he got me a bunch of cheap chocolate, a little stuffed animal and a card that would mean something if he acted like the card and not the way he was. FYI, my favorite candy was cheaper than that, I have diabetes and he got a bunch of chocolate. (I personally don't even like chocolate that much, except here and there) He was like, well, you know, I'm sorry. I got him a heart shaped pepperoni pizza since he absolutely loves it and was extremely excited and couldn't stop thanking me, and then, after seven years (at the time) he goes and gets a bunch of junk that I'm not supposed to have?  smh

The problem that I have in person is that it feels like I either overstate or understate things.

Yes, I understand. It's hard because everyone already has their own set of preconceived notions and take it the way they interpret it even if that's not what you meant in the slightest. That's why I have trouble, because I feel like I'm constantly explaining what I mean so it isn't taken the wrong way and it's exhausting.

I had the power all along. I was too tired to use it or see it.

It's not your fault though. It gets to anyone and you have a lot of strength to make it as long and as far as you did without completely breaking down!   As I said before, it was hard enough for me with one child, but you took care of four, yourself and your ex and as a mom I know how difficult that job can be to juggle it all while doing everything else expected of you. I've failed miserably in a lot of ways because of my stupid depression, but I'm working on it.

That is eerily similar to what happened to ex (I refuse to refer to him as my husband).

I don't blame you, I didn't know what to call him for a long time and said all kinds of things, including, that guy.  Yeah, it's amazing the insight he has now that he's had to endure a fraction of what he dished out over the years. He even thanked me the other day that I was faithful to him because of a couple he met that were married and were open to others. He told me that he doesn't and didn't deserve it, but he's thankful and he's a freakin fool for leaving me and not realizing what he had. I'm like, well... .I tried to tell you. I may not be the best, but I'm not gonna go running to anyone else, I'd rather do it on my own.

Ex told me that he found a counselor and is going to try to get an appointment. We will see if it happens.

I hope that he does and actually gets legitimate help from it for himself and your kids. Even if your relationship is beyond repair I know you would appreciate a good dad for your kids and not them having to think of him as a peer but someone that will be there for them like he's supposed to.

I knew it wasn't for the faint of heart going in. I didn't have any kind of rosy expectations.

Me neither, after all, I only had one good example in my life of a marriage that was good and lasting without a divorce or anything in between. My grandparents lasted for ever and that was through my grandpa going out and drinking and cheating on her for a time but she was a tough cookie and she confronted him and they worked it out. They stayed together until he passed a few months ago.

I don't know that I will ever get over that.

My h was the exact opposite and insanely jealous. He tried to control who I could and could not talk to from the start when it came to guys because he thought I would cheat on him. I told him I wouldn't because when I'm with someone, that is the only guy I see and am attracted to. He didn't believe me. He was my first relationship as well, so maybe that's why, but I'm just not that way, what's the point? I don't know how I would get over that either. For me, if he had had time to heal his own wounds and work on himself it would be an important and probably emotional conversation I'd have to initiate with him to see why he thought that was ok. That's a big wound in itself. I'm sorry you had to go through that vortex.   

I am not quite there yet. For me, the help and the reminders are more about me and the fact that I do sometimes need help. There are still some things that he can do easier than me.

Well, since he's currently about eight hours away, he couldn't help if he wanted to. That was the only thing he was good at for a while anyways, everything but what was really important. Spending all the day cleaning the car and making a mess on the driveway when I needed some help with stuff in the house, ugh. He does like to help and like your ex, now that he doesn't feel expected to do it, he does it more willingly. Sometimes I think he just wasn't ready for all the responsibility that comes with being married and it overwhelmed him when he realized it. This also goes back to the competition thing where we both have different skill sets and I've told him numerous times that I appreciated his and doing what I could not but it was never enough for him because he set the bar so high for himself no matter what he did it wasn't enough and he hated himself more and took it out on us. (Me and my son.)

It feels like I am harsh. In reality, I am being more honest with him than I have ever been. I am no longer coddling him. I tell him that I am frustrated and angry. And, when he tries to tell me stuff like, "It's not fair" when it comes to some of the stuff, I tell him flat out, ":)on't tell me that this isn't fair." And then I proceed to tell him the things that he has done to me and the kids that aren't fair. It isn't accusatory or mean. It is flat out honest. It is more of "This is what you did. How am I supposed to feel?"

I've had my time of this. I let him have it with both barrels and when he would try to tell me that "two wrongs don't make a right" and "I wouldn't do that" I told him flat out that not only would he do that but he has done that and I'm not being mean or extra harsh I'm just telling the truth. It's not my fault that you chose to do the things you did. It wasn't fair that my son and I had to suffer because you refused to grow up or recognize what was in front of you until you walked away from it. Even last night I got a chance to talk to him and told him that I don't trust or respect him anymore. He said he understands why and he wants to earn it back and I said we'll see. I've heard a lot over the years and I've seen nothing, so, we'll see. I told him I only see a .000000000001% chance of him doing what he says and he said that's kinda low, but he sees why, because of what he did for the past eight years. So, I don't know. He sounds different, but actions speak louder than words.

[steelwork]

Hey,

I'm getting a lot out of the dialogue here and hesitate to interrupt it, but I wanted to say:

I know I wasn't perfect. I think that is what has kept me in the fog. I could see where I went wrong. I could see where I made things worse. I felt like admitting that I screwed up would some how make it all my fault. The truth is that it isn't my fault. I was honest and I tried to live out my values in marriage even when I did it imperfectly. I didn't pretend to be anything.

This seems really important. You didn't pretend to be anything. You are a human being, with flaws, and your willingness to own them can lead to overcompensation.

You didn't pretend to be anything.

He did. Why? To stay out of the fog, maybe? That's the thing: if the fog is too scary (say, if it's filled with shame monsters), a person might do a lot to stay out of it.

I've done so much searching for my responsibility in the mess of things with my ex. It's taken me literally years to see that his anger at me, in almost every case, was about displacing his own bad feelings--externalizing them and hanging them on me. Be glad, at least, that this isn't your particular bad habit. Be glad that you're dealing in reality, not make-believe and projection.

Okay, carry on!

[vortex of confusion]

after seven years (at the time) he goes and gets a bunch of junk that I'm not supposed to have?  smh

I don't feel like I could ever communicate to him that the problem was with the fact that it felt like he didn't know me at all. I have had people that have known me for short periods of time give me a gift that said, "I know you. I hear you and I was paying attention."

This last Christmas, a family member got gifts for the girls and I. The girls were floored that all of the gifts were so perfect. They asked me how this family member nailed it so well when we don't see them that often. I said that they paid attention and listened to us. One of the kids asked me, "If they can do it, why can't dad?" That was a hard question and it kind of highlighted a big part of the problem. He would do stuff without much thought and consideration and then get upset because I was ungrateful. It wasn't about the gift. It was about the fact that we had been together so long and he still didn't seem to know me and would then make excuses about how difficult I am to please and how difficult I am to figure out.

That's why I have trouble, because I feel like I'm constantly explaining what I mean so it isn't taken the wrong way and it's exhausting.

It is very exhausting and there are times when it almost feels like it isn't worth talking about. I reached out to a life coach one time to try to get things back on track. She took everything out of context and reported me to CPS for neglectful supervision because I left the kids with their dad. There are some days when it feels like I don't know what is real any more. Yes, ex can be pervasively invalidating at times and he can be annoying. However, I don't see how he is a danger to these kids.

Something else I have noticed/felt is that I have picked up on some of his communication patterns. It almost feels like I have been trained to communicate with him and I am carrying that to other situations. One of the biggest things that I have picked up on and really need to watch is the tendency towards hyperbole and even then he may or may not hear it. I am sure that it must be frustrating to try to talk to me at times. I have kept my mouth shut for so long with ex that I feel like I get diarrhea of the mouth as soon as somebody takes an interest in listening to me. I am trying to figure out how to interact with normal people again. It is bizarre how much the kids don't know about me and my childhood. Their dad usually had a story to whip out about pretty much anything whether it was relevant or not. It was painful how it seemed like he would talk just to hear himself talk. It was like he couldn't stand the thoughts in his head so he had to drown them out by talking.

He told me that he doesn't and didn't deserve it, but he's thankful and he's a freakin fool for leaving me and not realizing what he had. I'm like, well... .I tried to tell you. I may not be the best, but I'm not gonna go running to anyone else, I'd rather do it on my own.

I have heard this before. One of the more insightful things that he said was, "How could I love you when I didn't even love myself?" He has said that he hated himself so much that all he could do was project that onto other people. He is aware of some of this stuff but seems powerless to change it. I can't sit by and watch and I can't let him suck me and the kids into that world any more.

I hope that he does and actually gets legitimate help from it for himself and your kids. Even if your relationship is beyond repair I know you would appreciate a good dad for your kids and not them having to think of him as a peer but someone that will be there for them like he's supposed to.

I don't think he is capable of long term change. He isn't able to be honest enough with himself. Right now, I wonder if he is even at the level of peer. I think the kids are more mature and self aware than he is. He was a great dad when the girls were younger because his humor and antics are the kind that completely delight toddlers. He was here visiting the kids the other day and was pretty good. What struck me is just how immature and childish he can be.

My h was the exact opposite and insanely jealous. He tried to control who I could and could not talk to from the start when it came to guys because he thought I would cheat on him.

That is what I found so very confusing. Ex would get jealous of me spending time with people under normal circumstance. If I was on the phone with my friends or family, he would lurk around and want to know what we were talking about. I went on a mom's night out one time and he got weird and gave me a lecture about when to be home. He and the kids would compete for my attention. Me talking to other guys in a sexual context turned him on and he encouraged it. I went along with it because I wanted a break and that seemed to be the only way to get it.

This also goes back to the competition thing where we both have different skill sets and I've told him numerous times that I appreciated his and doing what I could not but it was never enough for him because he set the bar so high for himself no matter what he did it wasn't enough and he hated himself more and took it out on us. (Me and my son.)

I felt like ex deliberately did a half azz job of things so he could prove to himself that he was incompetent. It was like he wanted to be a failure. I don't know how anybody could sit back and NOT say something about some of the things he did. I felt like I was being critical and nitpicky so I tried to keep my mouth shut. I was sharing a story with somebody about how he did dishes and the comment was, "If they are still dirty after you wash them, then you wash them again until they are clean." I was in a no win situation. If I didn't say anything at all, then I was enabling him. If I said something, then I was being critical and it confirmed his notion that he can't do anything right. I would deliberately find things for him to do that I knew he could do and do well.

I let him have it with both barrels and when he would try to tell me that "two wrongs don't make a right" and "I wouldn't do that" I told him flat out that not only would he do that but he has done that and I'm not being mean or extra harsh I'm just telling the truth. It's not my fault that you chose to do the things you did.

That is kind of where I am at right now. I can't sit back and NOT say something. Well, I could but I feel like it would be denying reality. And, I do feel a bit of relief when I tell him my truths. I don't expect him to change as a result. So much of this stuff is stuff that I have tried to tell him at different times and he would find a way to interrupt me and make it about him. The other night, I was trying to tell him something that I thought was important and he went off on some tangent about something that was completely unrelated. And, I bring it back to the topic and let him have it.

[vortex of confusion]

This seems really important. You didn't pretend to be anything. You are a human being, with flaws, and your willingness to own them can lead to overcompensation.

I definitely overcompensated. When I was looking through some stuff from our marriage prep from almost 20 years ago, I completely acknowledged that I can sometimes be mean and have to be really careful not to hit below the belt. Even back then, I said that there were times when I needed space to step away and gather myself so I could come back at things more rationally.

I laid out all of my dysfunction 20 years ago and have worked really hard to change it. I know that I do pretty well most of the time. When I am in situations that are super stressful, I sometimes revert back to crappy coping mechanisms that I picked up in childhood. I have discussed this with a sibling at length. He went through cognitive intervention and has given me tips and tricks to avoid getting into those kinds of stressful situations. I am not talking about normal daily stress either. I am talking about situations like the one with me and ex.

He did. Why? To stay out of the fog, maybe? That's the thing: if the fog is too scary (say, if it's filled with shame monsters), a person might do a lot to stay out of it.

I honestly think he pretended to be who he wanted to be rather than who he actually was. I recall telling him several times, ":)ude, if that is your thing, that is fine. Own it. Don't feel guilty about it. I will love you no matter who you are." I wanted him to share that with me. I felt like I could work with just about anything as long as there was openness, honesty, and communication. And, I wanted to be treated with dignity and respect. He did none of those things and I tried to excuse it because I didn't want to be mean (overcompensating).

And, ex had an appearance to keep up. He was hungry for his parent's approval. His family didn't approve of anything that varied from the norm. My family was openly and knowingly dysfunctional and it was the source of a lot of jokes among us. My family is very accepting of anyone. My family tends to encourage everyone to let their freak flag fly. Yes, there was a lot of dysfunction and yes I have leftover wounds from childhood but some of that same crap is what has kept me resilient and has allowed me to keep my sense of humor through all of this.

I have to be careful not to get sucked into his shame. Yea, I made some bad decisions along the way. Yea, I did some stuff that I am not proud of but so what. Ex is so stuck on how horrible he is that he can't seem to get out of his dark hole. I think the place where I was stuck was this place of feeling guilty because I did stuff that would be seen as weird by most people. I got sucked into his world of worrying about appearances. I can talk about what happened because I know why I did it. He doesn't know why he does anything. Or, if he does know, he is too ashamed to admit it.

I was the kid that would openly admit to doing stuff. Something would get screwed up and our parents would ask, "Who did this?" and I would volunteer and claim my misdeeds with pride.  That sounds bad. The point is that I do not have a history of shirking responsibility. There were times that I would take the blame/responsibility for something to protect others.

I have made a lot of alternative choices. Other people's opinions don't really phase me much. At least they didn't at one time.

I've done so much searching for my responsibility in the mess of things with my ex. It's taken me literally years to see that his anger at me, in almost every case, was about displacing his own bad feelings--externalizing them and hanging them on me. Be glad, at least, that this isn't your particular bad habit. Be glad that you're dealing in reality, not make-believe and projection.

Ex has a lot of anger bubbling under the surface. He had to do some kind of evaluation thing when he was younger before he went into the monastery and one of the things that came up was that he had a lot of unresolved anger. In the early days, I didn't really see it much. There would be bursts of him overreacting here and there and he would have a pervasive sense of grumpiness. I could work with it most of the time because it wasn't a big deal. I think I underestimated the impact that it would have on me in the long run. I overestimated my ability to deal with it and didn't realize that, over time, his anger and grumpiness increased such that it became a situation where he was pervasively invalidating in a thousand small ways. Some times I wonder if I could have handled the in your face stuff better. That would have been easier to talk about and understand.

[purekalm]

I don't feel like I could ever communicate to him that the problem was with the fact that it felt like he didn't know me at all.

Is this because you don't think he'll understand what you mean no matter which way you put it?

I reached out to a life coach one time to try to get things back on track. She took everything out of context and reported me to CPS for neglectful supervision because I left the kids with their dad.However, I don't see how he is a danger to these kids.

That's horrible. People think that CPS actually helps and most of the time they don't. You know him best, and if he isn't a threat he isn't one. It's awful that your attempt to reach out was met with more stress and issues. 

get diarrhea of the mouth as soon as somebody takes an interest in listening to me. I am trying to figure out how to interact with normal people again.

 I was the same! I'm like, I'm so sorry I'm just going on and on. He never let me get a word in edgewise. He could literally talk for an hour or more and all I would have to do is occasionally nod my head or 'hmm-mmm'.  

It was painful how it seemed like he would talk just to hear himself talk. It was like he couldn't stand the thoughts in his head so he had to drown them out by talking.

All joking aside, this. I noticed the same thing. He couldn't process or deal with the reality of what he was doing and how he was acting so he talked or immersed himself in a game or work so he didn't have to think. I told him that before because the issues we had were always the same ones. I said "You never give yourself time to think to actually make some type of plan to help yourself. You're always on the system, working, sleeping, helping out other people or with friends and 'cleaning' outside. When, in all of that, do you have time to try to right any wrongs?" He got mad at me of course, but he knew it was true. He purposely kept himself busy because he couldn't handle his own thoughts. I felt bad for him, but at the same time I wanted him to get help.

I can't sit by and watch and I can't let him suck me and the kids into that world any more.

It's a hard thing to do and decide.   I had to do the same. A long time ago I told him that he has to join me where I'm at and we go at this together or he can leave because he hadn't led us anywhere but into a pit and I was tired of being in it. I know that he needs help, but either he wouldn't admit it or he would and wouldn't do anything to make the necessary changes. 

I don't think he is capable of long term change. He isn't able to be honest enough with himself.

He is capable, but only if he is able to be honest with himself. It's the same with an addict. If they don't admit themselves that they have a problem and go themselves to try and get it, it won't last long. That's when I started bit by bit to take myself back was when I finally realized that nothing I did was going to change him or help him. He had to decide. It didn't mean I was going to wait forever or hang around for that to happen though.

That is what I found so very confusing. Ex would get jealous of me spending time with people under normal circumstance. If I was on the phone with my friends or family, he would lurk around and want to know what we were talking about. I went on a mom's night out one time and he got weird and gave me a lecture about when to be home. He and the kids would compete for my attention. Me talking to other guys in a sexual context turned him on and he encouraged it. I went along with it because I wanted a break and that seemed to be the only way to get it.

It was all about control one way or the other. He wanted it his way. What you wanted or how you felt wasn't considered. He controlled you sexually as well as every other part. It might have seemed different, but it was what he wanted so he made sure it happened. With your family and friends he was most likely wanting to know if they had talked about him or what was said about him. Someone with BPD is always concerned about themselves over everything. Him wanting to maintain a good image was also contingent on how controlled he had you and what you said or didn't say to others because you knew the truth. He needed to know what to say or do to 'fix' whatever damage you had done to him. The sexual part could also have been a punishment for you since he knew that you didn't want to do it. They make up their own rules while trying to adhere to the ones that make them look good.

I felt like ex deliberately did a half azz job of things so he could prove to himself that he was incompetent. It was like he wanted to be a failure.

I think that part of that is true and part of it was laziness. My h straight up admitted when I asked him recently that he was being lazy and didn't want to do it or had the mentality that it wasn't his job. He was especially like this when he became the only one to work. (Which was his decision by the way, I wanted to keep working.) He worked, so that's all he had to do and everything else from cleaning, care of our son, appointments, shopping, budgeting, was all my job since I didn't 'work'. But, of course, he would waste the money so I was constantly re-figuring everything. Basically, the less he 'could' do was less he 'had' to do. 

That is kind of where I am at right now. I can't sit back and NOT say something. Well, I could but I feel like it would be denying reality. And, I do feel a bit of relief when I tell him my truths. I don't expect him to change as a result. So much of this stuff is stuff that I have tried to tell him at different times and he would find a way to interrupt me and make it about him. The other night, I was trying to tell him something that I thought was important and he went off on some tangent about something that was completely unrelated. And, I bring it back to the topic and let him have it.

Because of always trying to do the right thing and be the adult and use the steps and ways of speaking, you did everything you could to help him and you and like my h, it didn't work. I think it's healthy that you are able to be honest, and the most important part is that you're not expecting anything out of it other than a release of truth and reality you couldn't share before. What he does with that is his business, but for you it's something you couldn't do before because of trying to make it work. I think that sometimes, the ways of communication expressed here invalidate our needs and repress our feelings. It's not always the case of course, but sometimes they simply aren't helpful.

I honestly think he pretended to be who he wanted to be rather than who he actually was.

So, he had put on a persona that was acceptable and earned him praise from his parents, peers and others and it fell apart with you because he couldn't keep it up continually? Coincidentally, when I met my h he wasn't with God or claim to be anything until one point he did claim to accept Jesus. He later told me he did it because he thought I would leave him if he didn't believe. I don't know what made him think that, but I get where he was coming from, and, like you it caused a lot of issues. The world is on another wavelength than God and we were constantly butting heads. My h was more direct with that he had goals he wanted to accomplish. He wanted to be married and have a child before he turned 30. He got that, but then practically threw it away.

And, ex had an appearance to keep up. He was hungry for his parent's approval. His family didn't approve of anything that varied from the norm. My family was openly and knowingly dysfunctional and it was the source of a lot of jokes among us.

My h had a abusive past with his biological parent and his babysitter at the time got legal guardianship of him and so he grew up from a young age with them. I don't know or interact with them because they never make an effort so he didn't have that problem. His accomplishments at work was the most important to him, the praise he'd receive for that. My family is more the same, knowingly dysfunctional. Even now they don't hate him, just wanted him to be there for us like he was supposed to.


Also, steelwork. Please butt in any time you want! Posting here helps us all and the more people post their observations the more helpful it is to the original poster with their question or dilemma. 

[vortex of confusion]

Is this because you don't think he'll understand what you mean no matter which way you put it?

Part of it was that I didn't think he would understand. Another part of it is that he would act like he understood. He would act like he heard me but wouldn't follow through. It was like he wasn't even listening. The way he would interrupt a conversation with stuff like, "Oh, I just had this thought pop into my head and had to share it with you." The thought was in no way related to anything we were talking about. It might not have been so bad if he could have picked back up on the conversation in a meaningful way. He couldn't. It felt like I would have to start all over again with what I was trying to say. So, it became a situation where I felt like, "What's the point? He doesn't know me and doesn't care to find out."

You know him best, and if he isn't a threat he isn't one. It's awful that your attempt to reach out was met with more stress and issues. 

That is part of the reason that I am hesitant to try counseling again. I need to find a way to talk about this stuff in a way that addresses MY feelings without having people assume that he is some kind of scary or dangerous man. At the end of the day, the person that he is the biggest danger to is himself. Even the kids know how to get him to stand down. He can be scary at times but it doesn't take anything to get him to huff off like a little kid. It isn't healthy or good that a parent is like that but I don't think it is something that I would consider dangerous. The kids parent him more than he parents them.

All joking aside, this. I noticed the same thing. He couldn't process or deal with the reality of what he was doing and how he was acting so he talked or immersed himself in a game or work so he didn't have to think.

This was so very frustrating for me. Most of the time, he immersed himself in games. He tried to avoid any kind of physical activity whenever possible and if he did do something physical he would act like he had just run a marathon or something. There was one time after he left when he came over to mow part of the yard. I was at work or something. When I got home, the kids commented on it. "Mom, dad mowed just a tiny part of the yard. We were worried about him because he was huffing and puffing and acting like he was going to die. You mowed the whole front yard by yourself and you didn't act like that. What is wrong with dad?"

It is very difficult to be around somebody that talks so much. There were times that I wanted to just be in his presence.  Come sit on the couch and watch TV with me without talking about every little thing and adding commentary and comment. He was here watching a parade with the kids and I one time and he kept talking. It was difficult to pay attention to what was going on. I finally had to ask, "Hey, can you guys knock off the talking. If you want to point out something cool in the parade, that is fine. I can't concentrate with all of this talking." He would go between extremes of talking incessantly or ignoring us completely because he was immersed in his own thing.

Wow, this makes me think of another big change that has happened since he left. Before he left, it felt like the TV was on all the time. Since he has left, we rarely have the TV on. I think it is because the TV was a good way to drown out all of his talking. The kids and I can sit and watch stuff together without all of the talking. 

It's a hard thing to do and decide.   I had to do the same. A long time ago I told him that he has to join me where I'm at and we go at this together or he can leave because he hadn't led us anywhere but into a pit and I was tired of being in it. I know that he needs help, but either he wouldn't admit it or he would and wouldn't do anything to make the necessary changes. 

Same here. He kept acting helpless and wanted me to tell him what to do. He would say that he didn't know what I wanted. I was at a loss about how to tell him because I felt like I had told him repeatedly. He would act like I was asking for something different. I was wanting little stuff like, "Put the kids to bed once in a while so I can get some time to myself." Nope, he couldn't do it. You can play your games from now until the cows come home as long as you can check in occasionally to help out. I was willing to negotiate and give him the space he wanted and needed.

When I look back over our relationship, I can see where I got us out of a lot of pits. He was along for the ride in a lot of cases. We went to see a banker one time and the guy was impressed how we were able to do so much with so little. He asked ex about it and ex shrugged his shoulders and said, "I don't know. She did it." It took me a while to get him to actually pay attention to the finances. He would call me and ask how much money we had. I finally told him, ":)ude, you have access to all of the financial information. YOU go check it and see. YOU need to keep better track of what is going on with the finances." When we got married, he pretty much handed it over to me and never looked back. I can see where he unloaded most of the responsibilities onto me and would then get upset when I would try to hand some of them back to him.

He is capable, but only if he is able to be honest with himself. It's the same with an addict. If they don't admit themselves that they have a problem and go themselves to try and get it, it won't last long. That's when I started bit by bit to take myself back was when I finally realized that nothing I did was going to change him or help him. He had to decide. It didn't mean I was going to wait forever or hang around for that to happen though.

I disagree with this. I don't think ex is capable of being honest with himself. Also, ex knows he has problems. He admits to being a sex addict. The problem for him is that there is a big disconnect. He can't seem to put the pieces together. It is like there is some kind of connection in his brain that is missing. That isn't a dig at him either. When I started paying closer attention to some things, I became astounded at how he was unable to comprehend things that seemed pretty basic and self evident. There was one time that I asked him about the guys in his group. I don't recall specifically but it was something along the lines of, "What are the other guys in your group doing about their marriages?" He recounted some of it. One guy has been jumping through hoops for his wife for 4 years because he knows he messed up. Ex did very little of the stuff that I asked of him and would then wonder why I didn't believe his attempts were sincere. Instead, he acted like I was being demanding. I know that I went searching and found this site because sex addiction alone did NOT account for some of the stuff I was experiencing with him. There was something else going on.

It was all about control one way or the other.

I find it interesting when people bring up control. I tended to see myself as the more controlling one in the relationship because I would ask him to do things and would get frustrated when he didn't. I didn't want to control as much as I wanted a partnership with give and take. In essence, I was trying to control because I was wanting a specific outcome. I wanted him to take responsibility and do his "fair" share.

He was trying to control because he didn't want to be responsible. He had his agenda, which was focused on himself. I had an agenda too. My agenda was to have an in tact family unit where everyone worked together and took responsibility. It is easy to say that I wasn't trying to control because my agenda was more "normal" and more acceptable.

He wanted it his way. What you wanted or how you felt wasn't considered. He controlled you sexually as well as every other part. It might have seemed different, but it was what he wanted so he made sure it happened.

Was he controlling me or was I controlling him? I did a lot of stuff in the hopes that it would make him happy and I could have my happy, peaceful, in tact family unit. I know that is a bizarre question to pose. If he had been a "normal" person, he never would have allowed things to go where they did. He would not have pushed me to do the things that he did. I think the difference is that he didn't have a goal in mind. His focus was on having a bit of fun and feeding his fantasies. My goal was to find a way to keep my family happy and maybe have a little bit of fun while doing it.

  With your family and friends he was most likely wanting to know if they had talked about him or what was said about him. Someone with BPD is always concerned about themselves over everything. Him wanting to maintain a good image was also contingent on how controlled he had you and what you said or didn't say to others because you knew the truth. He needed to know what to say or do to 'fix' whatever damage you had done to him.

I don't think so. Ex is not that calculating. I think it was more about him wanting my attention. Yes, he was concerned with his image but I don't think that is what was driving him. What drove him was paranoia and child-like curiosity. The parallels between how he acted and how the kids acted were eerily similar.

The sexual part could also have been a punishment for you since he knew that you didn't want to do it. They make up their own rules while trying to adhere to the ones that make them look good.

It was NOT punishment. I am certain of that. It was about him and his fantasy world. There was no thought of punishing me or hurting me. Ex is not calculating or manipulative. In the grand scheme of things, I am way more calculating that he will ever be.

My h straight up admitted when I asked him recently that he was being lazy and didn't want to do it or had the mentality that it wasn't his job.

I don't mind occasional bouts of laziness. I have my days when I don't feel like doing things and I want to be lazy. It got to me because I wanted to be lazy too some days. I think a lot of my feelings came from wondering when it would be my turn. It felt like I spent a lot of time helping him in  the hopes that he would get to a place where I could finally relax.

I can sit and say all kinds of stuff about ex and how he dropped the ball. I think I could have lived with it if I had gotten a chance to be lazy more often. The amount of work I had to do to get a "day off" felt ridiculous. If I wanted to go somewhere, I had to make sure that he and the kids had everything they needed. I had to prep the kids and do an inordinate amount of stuff to make sure that everything would be okay while I was gone. It wasn't like I could just jump up and decide to do something or go somewhere. I wanted a turn. Now that he is out of the house, I am seeing just how much added work I had to do because he was here.

He was especially like this when he became the only one to work. (Which was his decision by the way, I wanted to keep working.) He worked, so that's all he had to do and everything else from cleaning, care of our son, appointments, shopping, budgeting, was all my job since I didn't 'work'.

Same here. The only difference is that I DID work. I had a part time online job that I was juggling in all of that. In the later years, I found a part time job outside of the house too. So, I was doing all of that and working two part time jobs and he would say stuff about being the bread winner. He would talk about being tired from working. It baffled me that what he did was put on display and bragged about while what I did was barely acknowledge. I didn't want a pat on the back for being an adult but it sure as heck would have been nice if I could have gotten a break.

So, he had put on a persona that was acceptable and earned him praise from his parents, peers and others and it fell apart with you because he couldn't keep it up continually?

I had this really odd thought pop into my head when reading this. Wasn't I doing the same thing? I was putting on this persona that I was super woman. That I could handle anything. I wasn't doing it for praise or adulation. I was doing it because I wanted to keep things together. I wanted my happy and peaceful family. But, I couldn't keep it up. It fell apart. I was NOT super woman. I needed help from him and I was asking him to start doing things that I hadn't previously asked him to do. I hadn't previously asked him to do those things because we didn't have kids. I can see where I grew up and he didn't. He doesn't do change. If I had been able to keep up the super woman stuff, things would probably still be great.

My h had a abusive past

Ex didn't have anything in his past that stood out as blatantly abusive. I am the one that grew up in a family of in your face dysfunction.

Really, I sometimes wonder about the focus on abusive pasts. Yes, past abuse can predispose us to all kinds of weird stuff. As an adult, it is my job to recognize the dysfunction and abuse that occurred and find ways to overcome it and not let it define me. I still scratch my head at times when I share stuff from my childhood and have people react so weirdly to it. Yes, it happened. Yes, it hurt and it skewed my perspectives but it didn't break me and I don't run from it or act like it somehow gives me an excuse to be a lazy jerk. Ex has since brought up all sorts of stuff about his dysfunctional childhood. It makes no sense and it feels like it is an excuse.

[purekalm]

Part of it was that I didn't think he would understand. Another part of it is that he would act like he understood. He would act like he heard me but wouldn't follow through. It was like he wasn't even listening.

I understand. I think that it's like 'in one ear and out the other' type thing. They don't actually internalize it unless it's something they are interested in learning. Just like children. My son is so easily distracted and so he only hears 'no' 'stop' 'yes' and doesn't hear the why or why not and proceeds to have a fit or try to do something immediately that I did not say he could at that time. They are very much like children, in a grown adult's body.

That is part of the reason that I am hesitant to try counseling again. I need to find a way to talk about this stuff in a way that addresses MY feelings without having people assume that he is some kind of scary or dangerous man.

I don't blame you here. There are too many people too quick to judge nowadays. My old counselor knew I was in a bad situation and they are all legally obligated to report what they believe is abuse or neglect, BUT it takes one more experienced to know that things happen and it doesn't always mean the kids are in danger. Unfortunately, it's the ones that aren't reported that end up severely abused or worse. Maybe talk a bit about other things until you can see how they will react. From what I can remember you can also request a change in counselor if it's like one I went to where it was multiple offices in one building. The easiest reason to cite is that you don't mesh well with their personality because, well, people are people and we don't always get along with everyone.

This was so very frustrating for me. Most of the time, he immersed himself in games.

Games too? I love games myself and have always played them since I was young. I know when to stop though and he never did. My son could say his name over and over and he literally wouldn't hear him at all.

We were worried about him because he was huffing and puffing and acting like he was going to die.

My h was the opposite until he started gaining weight by sitting too often after he lost his job and was in between work for too long. He's a tall and strong guy, but he was very lazy. Like you, I also wanted my lazy days and didn't get them at all.

It is very difficult to be around somebody that talks so much. There were times that I wanted to just be in his presence.  Come sit on the couch and watch TV with me without talking about every little thing and adding commentary and comment.

Wow, so similar! My h would always fall asleep on me if he wasn't incessantly talking. Even when I was the one exhausted and losing sleep so I could try and spend time with him, HE would fall asleep and I would be so angry. He would use the excuse "I can't help it, you're comfortable" and laugh like it was something cute. I didn't laugh. He was comfortable to me, but I wanted some time with him. It's very frustrating because I felt like I had my child and a moody teenager.

Before he left, it felt like the TV was on all the time. Since he has left, we rarely have the TV on.

Same here! Only, it was because he was always playing a game on it or watching a movie or something by himself. Which, of course he could stay awake for. My son wants a movie on in the background all the time now because he was so used to the noise. It was quiet for a while though. 

I was at a loss about how to tell him because I felt like I had told him repeatedly.

Exactly the same. I got tired of repeating myself and I would stop midsentence and be like, why am I even telling you this again? How many times have I told you the same thing through the years? I also got us out of situations because whenever something happened he acted like he had no idea what to do even though he was the one who got us there.

I disagree with this. I don't think ex is capable of being honest with himself. Also, ex knows he has problems.The problem for him is that there is a big disconnect. He can't seem to put the pieces together. It is like there is some kind of connection in his brain that is missing.

I can see how you arrive here and we'll have to agree to disagree here. My h is the same with the disconnect. He would come home and tell me all the time about the relationships that were rocky and they made it work because they realized what they'd done and it was usually the men who had screwed up. He would tell me the advice they gave him and all this and at first I was like, well, maybe he'll get it right now. Nope. Sometimes directly after telling me things he would do the exact opposite.

My belief is that all people, regardless of what is disordered or wrong about them are capable of change. Yes, this has a lot to do with my faith as well. It doesn't mean that they will ever choose it or put the work in to do it, but the option is there. I've seen people make the decision to stop something that was killing them only to go right back and some that have changed their lives for the better and continued to fight until they didn't make it or have done so for years. Saying he can't change long term to me gives him an out. "He's just that way. It's not his fault because his mind is disordered." That's not being fair to you either with all the struggles you've had and overcome. He doesn't have to work that hard because no one is going to expect it of him in the first place.

In essence, I was trying to control because I was wanting a specific outcome. I wanted him to take responsibility and do his "fair" share.Was he controlling me or was I controlling him? I did a lot of stuff in the hopes that it would make him happy and I could have my happy, peaceful, in tact family unit. I know that is a bizarre question to pose.

I don't think it's a bizarre question but a valid one. Control-the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.
Manipulate-control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.

So, by the above definitions, it's usually people who are manipulative that are the problem. If you want to put it bluntly, you are controlling. So is every other mother or father that cares because you have 'the power to influence or direct your children's/ex's behavior'. You were doing what is normal, trying to find a balance and good place for your family to grow, make good choices and feel safe with each other. Doing the co dependent dance makes you feel manipulative at times, and sometimes it's necessary for survival, but I don't see what you've done as anything wrong in the least.

Manipulative people are the ones I have the most experience with. You were in no way being 'unfair or unscrupulous' in your dealings with him to get him to do the things he agreed to do when he married you or as a biological parent of his children. In fact, you were doing that to yourself, not him.

I don't think so. Ex is not that calculating. I think it was more about him wanting my attention.

To be honest, that's a good thing. Hogging your attention at the expense of anyone else, including his children having it is exactly what a child would do. My h expressed frustration in a round about way that I gave more attention to my son than him and I was like, well, he's a child, he's going to need my attention. It wasn't like he did anything to help me give him more attention anyways. That one is simpler (in a way, because they will still throw tantrums and act crazy) to  deal with than the person who is manipulative and even narcissistic in their attempts to get what they want. My dad is the calculating, manipulative one who is always concerned with how he's being portrayed.

It was NOT punishment.

I know it's no comfort, but I'm glad it wasn't. My dad is one for punishment and my h was more like yours with just trying to indulge in what he wanted without consideration for anyone or anything else. Not in a malicious way, but in a way where it honestly was not even thought of. Umm, impulsive, like a child.

I didn't want a pat on the back for being an adult but it sure as heck would have been nice if I could have gotten a break.

And you definitely deserve one! All that you had to endure and be to try and keep it together without a real break, without the help you were supposed to have. It's not easy to juggle all of it. Again, I'm amazed at how well you were able to keep it together for yourself and your kids. I didn't want to be the only adult either, especially since first I parented my parents and then went on to do the same with h, it was too much for me and I broke down.

If I had been able to keep up the super woman stuff, things would probably still be great.

I'd like to challenge this statement. Do you really believe, with how unhappy and messed up things were, that you could be happy carrying the load all alone while he was still there? Were things really great? You don't have to be superwoman, and I'm happy for you that you're getting some of the  help now that you didn't receive before. I would just make sure to not even attempt at blaming yourself for the end result when you weren't the only one in the boat.

I thought of this a few months back when I was contemplating everything and envisioned me and my h in a little row boat. At first, he was paddling along, then he started to slack, he stopped. I was still paddling, harder every time he slowed down. We were going in circles, no matter what I did. Eventually, he 'jumped ship' and left me still rowing like a maniac trying to get somewhere. At some point I realized he was gone and stopped rowing myself. With one paddle, and the entire boat left to me, how was I going to make this work?

Really, I sometimes wonder about the focus on abusive pasts. Yes, past abuse can predispose us to all kinds of weird stuff. As an adult, it is my job to recognize the dysfunction and abuse that occurred and find ways to overcome it and not let it define me. I still scratch my head at times when I share stuff from my childhood and have people react so weirdly to it. Yes, it happened. Yes, it hurt and it skewed my perspectives but it didn't break me and I don't run from it or act like it somehow gives me an excuse to be a lazy jerk. Ex has since brought up all sorts of stuff about his dysfunctional childhood. It makes no sense and it feels like it is an excuse.

I think, personally, it's because in childhood is where we can be harmed the most. We may not even remember what happened to make us keep acting a certain way or doing a certain thing that we know fundamentally is detrimental to us. It's something that as a child, we locked inside and it festered and grew. I agree with you that as an adult we are supposed to recognize and deal with it. The problem comes when what happened in childhood hinders our ability to do this. Even most of the members on this site that grew up with a BPD or other didn't realize the extent of the damage until their twenties or thirties. The damage can be mild to severe. I'm the same as you. I stopped saying much about it because some people that are sensitive have actually cried for me or my siblings. We got used to it, desensitized to a degree to dysfunction and abuse. It doesn't mean it didn't matter, but our normal was not normal and we only see that when others react the way they do.

Unfortunately for some, it does absolutely break them. They grow up without the survival skills needed to function and end up way worse off then us, as BPD's for example. That's why I have such a heart and compassion for those who suffer with it as well as other mental/personality disorders, because a huge part of it was not their fault to begin with. I think that they can choose to get help and help themselves. They can gradually move from a victim to a survivor to whatever they feel is applicable to them. I used to tell my h this as well. I went through way more than he did, yet he is the one who acted the way he did. Not to say I'm better by any means with my own dysfunction. I always told him this way, 'look, we both went through crazy things and it's still affecting us now. It doesn't excuse your behavior, it just gives the reason why you do it.' A reason and an excuse are two different things and I understood the difference where he did not.

[vortex of confusion]

Wow, so similar! My h would always fall asleep on me if he wasn't incessantly talking. Even when I was the one exhausted and losing sleep so I could try and spend time with him, HE would fall asleep and I would be so angry.

Yep, that is another similarity. He would use the kids as an excuse for us not spending time together so I would put the kids to bed early or let them get off schedule so they would sleep late and he and I could have some quality time together. He would fall asleep after I had put so much effort into setting aside some time for the two of us. Whenever he would make excuses, I would find a creative solution and he would still do the same thing.

Exactly the same. I got tired of repeating myself and I would stop midsentence and be like, why am I even telling you this again? How many times have I told you the same thing through the years?

To keep this focused on me instead of him: Why did I continue to talk? He ignored me the same way through the years. Wasn't his non-response a response? How many times and how many ways did he tell me that he wasn't interested in hearing what I had to say? Why didn't I change and stop asking? Why did I continue to put up with it?

My belief is that all people, regardless of what is disordered or wrong about them are capable of change. Yes, this has a lot to do with my faith as well. It doesn't mean that they will ever choose it or put the work in to do it, but the option is there. I've seen people make the decision to stop something that was killing them only to go right back and some that have changed their lives for the better and continued to fight until they didn't make it or have done so for years. Saying he can't change long term to me gives him an out.

This isn't about him. What do I get out of worrying about whether or not he can change? I am trying to move from a place of worrying about what he is or isn't doing and look at how I felt about what he did and how I can process those feelings and move forward.

Why does the inability to change automatically mean disordered? This is a bit of a devil's advocate kind of question. It isn't meant to be argumentative. It is one of those hypothetical questions that kind of popped into my head. I am not quite sure how to frame this. Let's for a second think about ex wanting me to be with other men and come back and tell him about it. I tried it but couldn't do it. I couldn't change no matter how hard I tried even though doing that would have made him happy. I cringe when I type that but the basics are the same. He wanted me to do something that is considered socially unacceptable and I wanted him to do something that is considered socially acceptable. I guess the point that I am making is that, even though the circumstances are night and day difference, aren't the basic principles the same? He wanted me to change so he could be happy and I wanted him to change so I could be happy. That is a recipe for disaster.

"He's just that way. It's not his fault because his mind is disordered." That's not being fair to you either with all the struggles you've had and overcome. He doesn't have to work that hard because no one is going to expect it of him in the first place.

For me, this isn't about assigning fault. This is about me trying to be realistic and remove any kind of expectations. How can I assess the situation as it is right now and make decisions about how to propel my family in a positive direction without getting stuck on what ex is or isn't doing. Nothing about any of this is fair.

The analogy that comes to mind is musical ability. Some people have it and some people don't. Ex has a lot of musical talent as does one of our daughters. If you handed me a guitar and told me that I had to learn to do it, I would be lost and frustrated. It doesn't mean that my mind is disordered. Decision making skills and interpersonal and intrapersonal skills are not something that everyone has. I think I read about this when reading about multiple intelligences. If he lacks the skills and ability to make decisions that would lead to positive change, then insisting that he does would likely frustrate him and make things worse, which is exactly what I have done for the last several years.

For me, it isn't really about who is at fault or what is fair. It is about trying to find a way that works for everyone involved. How can I process my feelings over what happened while still interacting with him in a positive manner? How can I find a way to include him in the kids' lives in a positive manner? So far, I am finding ways to take his childishness and use it to my advantage. He likes games so I encourage the kids to play games with him. One of them does online games with him. The younger two play board games with him. For now, it requires that I be there to manage things. Right now, that is what works. Finding what works is a creative process. I couldn't find a way to make things work when ex and I were together. Now that he is no longer in the house, I think it will be easier to find things that work because there won't be the push/pull crazy dynamic. He and the kids set each other off.

I'd like to challenge this statement. Do you really believe, with how unhappy and messed up things were, that you could be happy carrying the load all alone while he was still there? Were things really great? You don't have to be superwoman, and I'm happy for you that you're getting some of the  help now that you didn't receive before. I would just make sure to not even attempt at blaming yourself for the end result when you weren't the only one in the boat.

I don't feel like it is a blame thing as much as it is an honest assessment of what it would have taken to make things work with ex. I would have had to be super woman and be super happy. I ended things because I realized that I couldn't do it. I wanted more out of life than that. I wanted to set a better example for my girls. I didn't want the girls to grow up and think that it is normal for a guy to be so checked out, aloof, and lazy. If I had a nickle for every time the girls asked me, "Why can't dad <fill in the blank>," I'd have a nice little nest egg.

I do feel like there were a lot of great times. The kids and I have sat down together and gone through family pictures and remembered when dad was different. When the girls were younger, his juvenile antics had them giggling like crazy. He would do puppets and dress up as Santa and all kind of silly and fun things. Now, those things are annoying because he is still treating the kids like toddlers even though the oldest is in her teens. The kids get frustrated because he treats them like toddlers.

When the girls were little and I was nursing, I could give him specific things to do to help that I knew he could do. It didn't require much with wee ones. Make sure they have food, change their diapers, and play with them until they go to sleep. That was pretty easy. And, the kids were too young to challenge him. As the girls got older, they began to challenge him and he did NOT like that at all. Once they surpassed his maturity levels, it was all downhill.

I sometimes feel bad for him because I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like to try to live with 5 very head strong females.

We got used to it, desensitized to a degree to dysfunction and abuse. It doesn't mean it didn't matter, but our normal was not normal and we only see that when others react the way they do.

Normal? Isn't that a setting on the wash machine. 

[purekalm]

Ah, vortex of confusion, please forgive me for veering off topic, it was not my intention.

Wasn't his non-response a response? How many times and how many ways did he tell me that he wasn't interested in hearing what I had to say? Why didn't I change and stop asking? Why did I continue to put up with it?

You've answered part of this yourself. One way is that you assumed the 'superwoman' personality. The, I can do it no matter what it takes because I'm strong, capable and willing to do what will work. Which you are and were these things. It was not able to work because he was dealing with something that you (or anyone) couldn't get through with sheer will. Your herculean efforts were not rewarded. Another piece could be your upbringing in a dysfunctional family. I don't know the specifics obviously, but as an example for me, that was kind of my job. I had to take care of my parents emotional/mental needs and before that I was kind of caretaker and protector of my younger sister until she shoved me away many years later so doing everything I possibly could to make it work was something hardwired, failure was not an option.

This isn't about him. What do I get out of worrying about whether or not he can change? I am trying to move from a place of worrying about what he is or isn't doing and look at how I felt about what he did and how I can process those feelings and move forward.

Again, I'm very sorry for that. What you get is pain and frustration and too much time focused on the person you already spent years trying to help and figure out than on working things out better for yourself and your daughters. I tend to forgive people pretty quickly, even the ones who have hurt me pretty badly, because if I don't I'm holding onto all the negative and I'm the one hurting more than them. One person helped me out that is a sort of life coach (I initially wrote her for a different reason) that believes in God. I don't know for sure what you believe in, but this helped me. I'm not sure I will be able to post the link, I'm not good at that, but I'm going to try.

https://supernaturaldiscernment.com/2015/11/15/human-soul-ties/        I don't think that works so I posted the article.

What Is A Soul Tie?

Human relationships can be a little taste of heaven or a little taste of hell, depending on the health of the relationship. Often we experience unhealthy relationships because our soul is trying to get another person to meet our needs. People do meet some of our needs for companionship, comfort, love, etc. But when we look to them as our Source of Love – that’s when it becomes unhealthy.

When we become intimate with someone – whether emotionally or physically – we build a bond with that person. We draw strength from the connection. This is what forms the foundation for family and a sense of belonging in a home or community. Some refer to this bond as a soul tie.

There are healthy soul ties and unhealthy soul ties. A healthy soul tie enhances your life – it makes you a better person, it provides strength and support for you to become all that you can be. You might see this kind of healthy soul tie between a husband and wife or between a parent and child.

Unhealthy soul ties have a negative effect on your life. You feel tied to someone in a way that sometimes pulls you down or holds you back. At one point in your life, the soul tie might have been a source of strength, but now it is not. Often this happens when a child grows up and the parents (or the child) have a hard time letting go. The child wants to move on with their life, but they feel a tug or pull to stay close to mom or dad. This can happen even if the person is no longer living – their memory or their desires for your life can still pull on your heart in an unhealthy way.

Another common unhealthy soul tie is with a person with whom you had a past intimate relationship. This could be an old boyfriend or girlfriend, a past roommate or even a best friend. Someone that you spent a lot of time with and shared your life with – especially if you were physically intimate with this person – there’s a good chance you have a soul tie with them. If the relationship is over, but you still have a reaction whenever you hear their name or you still dwell on memories of them, it is likely there is an unhealthy soul tie there. Some part of you is still connected with them and it may be holding you back from fully enjoying your life now.

Soul Ties
Here are some common symptoms of an unhealthy soul tie:

    You feel emotionally tied to the other person even when you do not want to be.
    You can’t stop thinking about the person even though the relationship is over.
    You have an emotional reaction that is unpleasant when someone mentions their name or if you run into the other person unexpectedly.
    You feel like you can’t move on with your life; you feel tied to the past with the other person.

Can you have both an unhealthy soul tie and a healthy soul tie with the same person? Yes, you can. Breaking the unhealthy soul tie can bring freedom to the relationship so that it becomes stronger and healthier for both of you.
Some of the benefits of breaking an unhealthy soul tie are:

    You experience inner peace (instead of turmoil over what they may think about you).
    You feel free to express who you really are.
    You can make decisions that are best for you, without the pressure to conform to someone else’s expectations.
    You are able to move on with your life (if the relationship is over).



Forgiveness is an important part of breaking an unhealthy soul tie. If you are holding a grudge against someone, it ties you to them emotionally. Forgive them from your heart and let it go. Then you can break the unhealthy soul tie. If you try to break the soul tie, but you don’t forgive them, you won’t be able to break the power they have over your life. You’ll still feel connected to them, even if that person is someone you’d rather forget. If you need help choosing to forgive (you know you need to, but you are having trouble), here’s a helpful article.

How to Break a Human Soul Tie

When you are ready to break an unhealthy soul tie, here’s how you do it. Say these things OUT LOUD.

1. Forgive them: “I forgive _(name)_. I release him/her from the harm he/she caused me. I let it go.”

2. Break the tie: “I break the unhealthy soul tie between me and __(name)___. I send back any part of their soul that I have kept and I take back to myself any part of me that they kept. God, please wash me of this connection and restore my connection with You in this area of my soul.”

Excerpt from Freedom through Forgiveness: The Power of Forgiveness Can Change Your Life, Second Edition © 2012. Reprinted with the author’s permission.

For me, this isn't about assigning fault. This is about me trying to be realistic and remove any kind of expectations. How can I assess the situation as it is right now and make decisions about how to propel my family in a positive direction without getting stuck on what ex is or isn't doing. Nothing about any of this is fair.I don't feel like it is a blame thing as much as it is an honest assessment of what it would have taken to make things work with ex.

I really didn't mean it to sound that way, I apologize. If you continually try to figure out how it would have worked then you will stay stuck in the past. I did the same thing and realized that trying to figure it out kept me focused on him and it was actually hard at first to stop trying to think about what coulda/shoulda/woulda happened. I wanted to know, I had to know the reasons why it all messed up and what part I played to work on myself. That was what I started working on. Regardless of what he did or didn't do, what did I do that I know was not ok and that I need to work on? Instead of focusing on him and our problems I started focusing on my individual issues again. I don't know how much time it will take you to get there, but I know I sure haven't helped by having you think about him more. Very sorry. No, it's not fair. Not to you, your kids or even him. I think that one of the things that makes it harder for you is the questions that your daughters ask you. With the limited ability of speech and cognition my son has he doesn't really ask many questions. Just like you said, you don't want your daughters to think that his actions were ok and so you have to explain that every time they ask so they don't think it's normal and accept it for themselves in their own future relationships.

Your ex and my dad have similarities in that way, only able to function with us up to a certain way. We started to stand up to him once we realized a lot of things going on and it got nasty. In all of this, my mom never said it wasn't ok and added her share because she was so angry with him. As a result, with no advice or help I walked right into my own dysfunctional relationship. I have to say thank you for showing your girls that the relationship you had is not what they should expect to have. 

Normal? Isn't that a setting on the wash machine. 

 Yep! 

[vortex of confusion]

The soul tie stuff is interesting.

As I read it, I found myself wondering: why it is a bad thing to think about an ex? I am often times reminded of people that have come and gone in my life. Some were friends, some were exes, and some were people that I only had a brief encounter with but something about the encounter stuck with me.

Whenever I read stuff about how important it is to forgive, I have to watch myself. I know that I have a tendency to get triggered around the forgiveness issue. It feels like I am being told to forgive him and that will magically make all of the hurting and the pain and the confusion go away. I know that isn't what is being said.

I am not quite sure how to explain it. I know me. If I completely forgive somebody, then I am prone to let them do the same thing to me again. I know that it is possible to forgive and protect yourself. For some reason, the way my mind works is that forgiveness is kind of like a free pass. If I forgive somebody for something, then it is a clean slate and I don't bring it up again. I am so not there yet. Here is an interesting article about reasons not to forgive:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/is-psychology-making-us-sick/201409/6-reasons-not-forgive-not-yet

One of the reasons is: "1. Urging forgiveness ignores the fact that anger naturally rises after being hurt and often needs to be integrated, not rooted out like some bacteria-borne illness."

I think that is where I am at. I am trying to process the anger and the hurt and do it in a way that honors who I am. Saying that I forgive him is crap because I feel like it is going to take a while to process the anger and hurt of some of the stuff that he did. And, I can choose not to forgive him yet still be nice to him and still find positive ways to interact with him.

Also, to me forgiveness almost feels like giving them a pass. It is like giving them an out. Ex doesn't get off that easy.

Here is an article that really resonates with me about forgiveness: www.elitedaily.com/life/unable-forgive-makes-smart-not-weak/943638/

Here is a quote that speaks to me:

Not being able to forgive doesn’t mean you walk around, day in and day out, with a chip on your shoulder or a clouded mindset, hell-bent on seeking revenge. It means taking a stand against the kind of behavior and actions you won’t tolerate and boldly saying it is not okay to be treated this way.

I am not going to tip toe around this. I am pizzed off and I feel like I have every reason to be. I want to stand up and shout it from the roof tops: Things are NOT okay. Ex is NOT somebody I will ever be able to live with. Ex is NOT the man I thought he was  nor the man he presented himself to be. I feel angry. I feel betrayed. I feel disgusted. I feel so many things.

While all of that negative stuff is there trying to come out, I am still very grateful. I have 4 amazing children because of him. The girls and I have a roof over our heads because he isn't going to fight me and try to get the house. Some of the very things that I hated from him during the relationship are the very things that I am grateful for now because that means that my transition will be much easier. None of those good things erase the pain and hurt that I felt when he pawned me off on another man. None of those good things will erase the pain of having to answer the kids questions about dad.

I love ex and I don't see there being a day when I don't love him. I don't see anything wrong with that. I gave the man half of my life and have 4 kids with him. I have to be done with him and I can't live with him because I need to send a loud and clear message to my kids that NONE of this is okay. People that are in a relationship should be loving and should take care of each other in reasonable ways. Now that he is gone, I have these moments where the kids will do stuff or something will happen and I will think, "Man, that never would have happened if ex were here."

[purekalm]

It feels like I am being told to forgive him and that will magically make all of the hurting and the pain and the confusion go away. I know that isn't what is being said. I am not quite sure how to explain it. I know me. If I completely forgive somebody, then I am prone to let them do the same thing to me again.

You know yourself best and shouldn't put yourself in a position that you know will end up hurting you. You're still processing it all, of course you're not ready to forgive. Forgiving someone in no way makes it permissible for someone to continually put themselves in the same position, it just means you've been able to process all of your feelings and are ready to let the whole thing go. Grieving is a part of that process and most know that you're all over the place when this happens. Back and forth through the various stages even.

An example from my own life. I literally hated my parents. I wanted them to die. I wasn't going to do it, but that's what I wanted.
I prayed and cried and screamed and just, whatever I felt like one day in particular and God began to show me my parents the way he sees them. Through that, I was able to forgive them. Did it mean they stopped hurting me on a daily basis or changed at all? Nope. I let go of it, all of it and I literally felt physically lighter. If my dad stays on his current path he won't live much longer and he has made up his own version of our lives where he was a great father. I will never have the dad I wanted, he will never accept his abuse or stop dishing it out. He's a very broken individual, but I choose to let go of it for my sake, not his, and it does help. It's not a word to me, it's life. It doesn't happen instantly, that's not realistic.

Forgive means:
a :  to give up resentment of or claim to requital (see requital 1) for <forgive an insult>b :  to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>

2:  to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :  pardon <forgive one's enemies>Forgive, according to merriam webster is this:
forgive implies that one gives up all claim to requital and to resentment or vengeful feelings <could not forgive their rudeness>.

 I did live in constant turmoil because of what I held onto. Regardless of what the articles say, you do hold on to the way you feel about people and it does hurt you, even if it's not in the forefront of your mind at all times. It's an unresolved issue and it's not going away without dealing with it. The 6 reasons article doesn't even state not to forgive, but that forgiveness is a process and not to do it right away just at the urging of another when you're not ready yet.

Not being able to forgive doesn’t mean you walk around, day in and day out, with a chip on your shoulder or a clouded mindset, hell-bent on seeking revenge. It means taking a stand against the kind of behavior and actions you won’t tolerate and boldly saying it is not okay to be treated this way.

I agree with this to a point. I stop it at saying not forgive at all, but that it's simply a part of the process. Why would you want to forgive someone who did all those things right now? The pain is still raw. It would be like putting a bandaid on a deep puncture wound and saying it'll be fine. Not possible.

I am not going to tip toe around this. I am pizzed off and I feel like I have every reason to be. I want to stand up and shout it from the roof tops: Things are NOT okay. Ex is NOT somebody I will ever be able to live with. Ex is NOT the man I thought he was  nor the man he presented himself to be. I feel angry. I feel betrayed. I feel disgusted. I feel so many things.

You shouldn't have to tip toe. You do have every reason to be ticked off. All of those feelings need to come to the surface unchecked for a time so you can validate yourself like you tried to throughout your ordeal. You couldn't/wouldn't because of many different things and now you can. Just, don't get stuck there. I was looking for help with my h's anger a few years ago and found this website and it's actually helped me instead.  

www.angermanagementresource.com/healing-anger.html   It's all about anger, healthy and unhealthy, how to deal with it. There are things you can buy though I've only used the free materials at present.

While all of that negative stuff is there trying to come out, I am still very grateful. I have 4 amazing children because of him. The girls and I have a roof over our heads because he isn't going to fight me and try to get the house. Some of the very things that I hated from him during the relationship are the very things that I am grateful for now because that means that my transition will be much easier. None of those good things erase the pain and hurt that I felt when he pawned me off on another man. None of those good things will erase the pain of having to answer the kids questions about dad.

For me, I think you want validation that you are allowed to be angry. In ourselves, we all have that 'knowing' and I think you know that you're allowed but it's new. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving him either for the very reasons you give.

Look, I see it everywhere anymore where women are expected to get back on their feet quickly, get that 'revenge body' and shove it in the face of the man that hurt them how much better they are without them. It's not just an idea, there's pressure in society to do it whether we want to or not and you're considered weak if you still love them or don't do all those things. How healthy is that really? Sole motivation to get revenge or 'show up' the one that hurt you? You're doing better for reasons that make sense, for yourself, for your daughters. So what if people think bad of you or don't understand, that's their problem. How long have you already lived with someone trying to tell you what to do only to go and have other people do the same but in ways that seem 'empowering'? It's disgusting to me that these people are using someone's pain to foster their own ideals.

In the end, the only opinion and decision that matters is yours. I've gotten all the advice in the world through everything I've looked up, listened, read, prayed. No matter what, I had to take what made sense to me and make the decision I thought was best for me and my son regardless of if my family or the world approves. It isn't easy, but I feel like you're finally starting on the path to healing by acknowledging your anger and letting it flow when you can. Grieving, healing, forgiving, it's all a process that's uniquely yours and no one can or should try to take that away from you.   

[vortex of confusion]

a :  to give up resentment of or claim to requital (see requital 1) for <forgive an insult>b :  to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>

I am just beginning to uncover all of the resentment that I have over the stuff with ex.

For me, I think you want validation that you are allowed to be angry.

I don't want validation as much as I don't want to be invalidated. I know that I have every reason to be angry and upset. I know that it is okay for me to do what I am doing. It is the fact that I feel invalidated when people try to tell me what I am thinking, feeling, and wanting. I am not certain about any of it right now and it may change from moment to moment as I think about things and process things.

As things change at home, I am feeling more bitter feelings towards him. For example, now that he is gone, I come home from work to a peaceful house. On nights when I work late, my mom comes over and I come home to the kids in bed. The trash will have been taken out. Things around the house will be picked up. The other day, I was surprised that the dishwasher had been emptied. I found out that the oldest did it the night before when she up making herself a snack.

In the end, the only opinion and decision that matters is yours.

I don't agree with this. The decisions that I make impact the lives of these kids. When it comes to the legal system, my opinions and my decisions WILL be scrutinized. I do not operate in a vacuum. If my opinions and decisions put my kids in danger, that is NOT cool. If my opinions and decisions are based on some kind of willy nilly feeling or some kind of pipe dream, that kind of matters. If I know that I am not in a place to see things clearly, then I definitely need to consult with others. I need help making sure that I am doing the right thing for the right reasons. It is the process of discernment.