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Author Topic: Desperate to save myself and my marriage  (Read 1195 times)
misterblister
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« on: January 17, 2017, 05:39:44 PM »

Hi, just over two years ago I posted my intro here. My uBPDw was threatening to leave at the time. I stepped in and she stayed, but I quickly returned to walking on eggshells. In hindsight I see she was splitting as a sort of preemptive abandonment strike.

Now I see I have enabled my marriage of ~14 years to survive by turning both cheeks and defusing the bombs, and by being unnaturally flexible through my lack of self-respect in my unconscious role as rescuer/fixer. I don't know how I kept it up. I cannot do it that way anymore but I want to make a last stand.

Whatever she did wrong, I failed to deal with the dysfunction head-on in a mature and healthy manner. That means I need to start responding firmly but lovingly with boundaries and self-respect. The problem is that when I started trying that recently, it seemed to trigger worse episodes in her. So I pushed pause, so to speak, and backed off and returned to walking on eggshells.

This is where I am at right now and some points I need help with:

1. I must re-gain my self-respect and establish boundaries with her. I realize this may unleash hell, but at the end of the day I want to have a clean conscience knowing I was acting and responding in a healthy, mature manner. Can someone point me to methods and techniques for relating and resolving conflict with a BPD spouse?

One extremely frustrating thing she does when I don't take her bait and try to keep my cool, is that she says I am using the wrong tone of voice. By that point I am twisted in a knot and end up asking if we can't just write letters (Nope).

Another question weighing on me heavily recently is how am I supposed to love and be loved by a spouse who doesn't forgive me? Isn't that a requirement (a boundary) ?

2. I want to save this marriage for the children's' sake. We could debate this for hours, but rather than list all the reasons why, I am convinced that my children will pay a higher price if I leave due to how my wife will respond. She is high-functioning and would no doubt get custody.

My suspicion is that I will revisit this question if my approach in #1 backfires but I am curious to hear from others who succeeded or failed in saving the marriage for the children's' sake.

3. I think my wife wants me to grovel and always be the initiator, the one who initiates all touches and hugs, who forgives but doesn't demand she forgive. I basically feel like I am the parent and she is the crushed unreasonable toddler. That is extremely difficult for me at this stage. Is it because I am a bad husband or have finally found my self respect? Last time I reached out like that it triggered some sort of fear of vulnerability and she viciously accused me of putting on a show of affection for the children. Her conviction was absolute and I was helpless to convince her of my sincere motives. Exasperated, I begged her to provide me a criteria of behavior she would accept as being sincere. She couldn't or wouldn't answer that.

My eldest child even points out I am not affectionate enough. Do I just wince and keep doing it and hope on the 1000th try my wife will magically believe my sincerity and won't knock down the castle I've built? The thing is, all I have read about BPD (and my own experience) tells me that the very thing she wants--intimacy--is the very thing she'll claw me into shreds for threatening her with! It scrambles my brain and heart.

Right now I cannot afford individual counseling, so I dearly appreciate your insights and suggestions and links to resources. I am desperate to move forward and do the right thing for myself and for my family.
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CrossroadsGuyMn

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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2017, 09:11:33 AM »

Aside from not having children with my dBPDw, I empathize with you.

When I read your first point about establishing boundaries it struck a chord with me, and made me think about a post I read yesterday about "Extinction Bursts", and how when we establish or re-establish boundaries, behaviors sometimes get worse before they get better.

Your third point about you feeling like her 'parent' though, hit home with me as well.  If I had a dollar for every time I've felt that way, I have a whole lot of money.

So my message to you is you are not alone, do the best that you can to take care of yourself... .easier said than done... .I know.
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2017, 09:42:24 AM »

In many ways, I am noting that I was where you are, with all the fears, caution, uncertainty and inner turmoil.  What you are going through is real.  You are not in an unusual place. It took me a few more years than you have to start peeling back the the curtains.  I felt like you probably feel like according to what you have written.
My ideas about your posts are:
1) - yes.  Previously sheltered BPD abusers do not like you to have boundaries (which are limits on what you will do / accept). It feels like torture to be held accountable for their behavior and choices.  It will not get easier as you get better.  I think of it as setting a bone.  It hurts more than leaving it alone.  There are sources all over the knowledge section of this website.  I think you can get to the answers of your own questions for the specifics.  My wife says that she forgives me, for sins that are very important to her in her mind, such as what I did with a girlfriend two years before I even met my wife!  So, if you've done wrong, fix it and move on.  You can't make her forgive you - and since shame and guilt are her hooks into controlling you, she will never forget them, and I suggest, never really forgive them.  You have to decide how you are going to deal with that idea.  You didn't cause her BPD, you can't cure her BPD, you can't control her BPD.

2) - Stop right now.  Don't assume she'll get custody.  It is perfectly reasonable to expect something like 50/50 custody.  Most dads get defeated in custody because they feed into the traditional divorce where mom gets the house, the kids; and dad gets the bills, and evicted.  Get a good lawyer when needed.  Also, don't stay married "for the kids."  That's making them responsible (scapegoats) for your life decisions.  You may decide to stay married so that you can do such and such for the kids, but, do not assume that the kids are better off if you stay beaten down in marriage.  True, kids thrive better when they are sure of an intact home, but, i suggest that an intact home can be with one parent, sharing custody. 

3) - I hear you!  An early casualty in these abusive relationships is true intimacy and affection.  I learned eventually that fear is not love.  I was expected to do all the initiating and all the "work" which I did out of desperation.  And that's only when she deemed it was okay with her.  Which due to her sullen, passive aggressive, inhibited nature was rare.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2017, 10:31:47 AM »

Hey mister blister, Beware of F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt), which is the three-pronged pitchfork that a pwBPD uses to manipulate a Non.  If she senses that you are rocking the boat, I predict that you will experience an influx of F-O-G, so get ready for it.  Don't fall for it, or you may find yourself back at square one.

LuckyJim
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misterblister
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 12:57:43 PM »

@CrossroadsGuyMn - thank you for listening and your encouragement. It matters a great deal.

@SamwizeGamgee - Thanks for your responses. I don't know how you managed to endure longer. My wife's BPD made me first feel like a baffled bad person, then a stupid bad person, then simply a bad person, until finally I just felt I was crazy and incapable of doing right. To your specific replies:

1) So you are still married? How do you handle that day to day? My wife will bring up things I did before I married her, of which I was totally unaware, and interpret them as some sinister act I did to intentionally hurt her. How do you cope with those skeletons dancing in front of you? How do you endure being the falsely accused bad guy? Do you just forgive and forget and accept it's never going to change?

2) Divorce is tough for me conceptually. I was a child devastated by divorce. It was taboo in my world view. I never imagined it a possibility when I got married. I was determined to give my children what I didn't have, a secure and healthy marriage where Dad is always there as a pillar. I have struggled to shake that idealism. I am slowly grasping the concept that me staying and suffering for the kids' sake can be a form of burden/blame on them. I think part of my question in posting here is to find out if it is possible for me to behave in a manner that makes me happier/healthier in this marriage, without worsening the marriage itself.

3) I still can't get my head around BPD. I thought love conquered all? My wife isn't a monster. She can be very kind and considerate and understanding, with deep insights. I don't understand why I cannot just sit down and tell her I love her and that I understand her fears and that she can trust me to be honest and fair and hold her hand while she works through this junk?

@Lucky Jim - thanks for the warning and reminder. My struggle is holding it together when things hit the fan. I am a very sensitive and empathetic type so I quickly feel overwhelmed when things hit the fan, but in particular when I am broadsided by false accusations. I am going to try emailing her to open up communication doors more safely.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 02:01:45 PM »

Hello again, Mr. B,

I'm a sensitive and empathic person, too, so I can relate to your fears about holding it together when you are under assault.  It took me a while to get a thicker skin!

Also as you describe, I was committed to my marriage and my kids, and never considered divorce as an option.

What I neglected to consider was the toll that marriage to my BPDxW would take on me physically, emotionally and financially.  I depleted my reserves and ran myself into the ground, at which point I was no help to anybody, particularly my kids.  I'm telling you this by way of caution and to suggest that you take steps to make sure you care for yourself, which is easy to overlook in the throes of a BPD r/s.

LuckyJim

I'm relating this as a caution to you, that it's important to
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2017, 02:09:26 PM »

I'll have to reply more fully later, I have only a little time now.  Advance warning: I might be at a different life stage than you are, and I can't advise much on restoring and improving a relationship.

Quickly though.
I am still married, 19 yrs.  I find my own joy and happiness (and purpose) in things other than my wife and my marriage.  I have kids, and I immerse myself in being super dad.  I figure out what is good for me, and good for them, and do it.  I don't intentionally ignore my wife, but I cut the anchor chain since she really holds back most things I should do. 

As for forgiveness, I didn't really do anything against my wife. Once I grasped that, I forgave myself as needed, and it became irrelevant what my wife thought / said / did about it.  I did do some bad husband things (losing my temper, controlled money too much, wasn't empathetic and validating as I should have been) but, in the grand spectrum of human behavior, I finally accepted that my "Sins" are actually human frailties, or natural human behaviors.  I have matured a lot over the many years, and I realize that I'm actually ok - with more work to do of course.  And again, I turned off the guilt buttons.
I guess you could sum it up as over the recent past, I have fireproofed, bombproofed, guiltproofed, fearproofed, and feelingproofed, myself from my wife.  That's probably not the happiest marriage formula. But, I needed it.  I disconnected just about every attachment I had to my wife. She seemed to operate on a basis of "She's not happy unless I'm not happy."  That had to go.  Meanwhile, she still projects and blames me for whatever suits her mood.

As for me, I am not trying to restore my marriage, rather I am trying to either survive it or end it.  Likewise, I am not trying to save my wife, rather, I survive her.  This may not apply to you or your situation, so my mindset might not be useful for you to hear.
 
I also do long distance running to meditate, cope, and stay healthy.  I also have done more meditation and mindfulness training.  It works for me.  I am choosing to be happy and have meaning regardless of who is around.  I have some old favorite hobbies that I got back into which helps round out my life.  Self care is so very important.

Listen to your gut, as you do it gets stronger.

I will add this bit of wisdom - I told you things I do to make me better, happier, stronger, and more complete.  If I had a good marriage, all the above things would make the marriage stronger, more vital, more fun, and richer.  Stronger healthy people make stronger healthy marriages. The fact that strengthening me and the kids makes the marriage weaker and hurts my wife is a good sign that it is an unhealthy, toxic marriage. 

And of course, my wife is not a monster.  She's smart, talented, capable, and shines from time to time.  To the world she's another Dr. Jekyll.  She has many desirable traits, and we have had good times.  There is however, a Mrs. Hyde that makes the good not worth it.  It's the spoonful of sugar that helps the poison go down.
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misterblister
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2017, 04:40:03 PM »

@Lucky Jim - Thank you for the reminder. My emotional and physical health has been a concern. I tend to trudge along no matter what, not thinking about my own health; it was only when people were asking me what was wrong, or I had actual health scares, that I started realizing I had limits and could be broken.

@SamwizeGamgee - Thank you for sharing how you have coped. You are further along than me but in fact what you describe seems like where I am headed if I can manage it. A few years ago I actually saved my sanity by discovering (without knowing what it was called then) mindfulness and forcing myself to meditate on the here and now, and taking up a hobby with maximum intentionality. I did not go full tilt with that, however, and found myself unable to surmount the negativity at home.

Given your heroic efforts, I would ask you what motivates you to stay? For me, I picture that somehow if I manage to be strong and healthy enough, it is better for my kids that I am there as a balancing pillar despite the tension and lack of affection with my wife. Is that what helps motivate you?

My worry is from what I have read a lot of people say, in that even if I manage to cope well and survive her and be Super Dad, what am I teaching my children about how a marriage relationship should be, or how a man should love a woman? That seems to be the chief argument against staying for the kids' sake, but of course it presumes that if I leave I will somehow end up in a healthy romantic relationship that I can expose my children to and reverse the damage, right?

I'm curious to know (if you are willing to tell) how do you handle the day to day? For example, do you cordially greet her, hug her, even when she's entirely cold? Do you just power through it like an arranged marriage as part of your duty? Does she complain you aren't paying enough attention to her or being romantic enough and if so, what do you say? What do you tell your kids about the relationship?
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 09:13:49 AM »

You have landed on some very important questions.  I wonder what I'm teaching by tolerating or contributing to a home for my kids in its current state.  
You ask what I am doing and how it works.  I  must emphasize that all I have found now is methods to survive, and even thrive, but knowing full well I haven's arrived.  Some of my tricks are just part of Stopping the Bleeding step - which you'll find more about on the links to the right.
I stay for these reason:
1) Fear of making things worse by leaving and motivating my wife for revenge.
2) A place holder.  When I'm married to her that prevents her from shaking up with a drug addicted pedophile - a wild exaggeration for sure, but, the point is, I want to be present and the man raising my kids.
3) financially I'm supporting everyone, which will continue after divorce for a long while, but splitting the household and increasing expenses. The dreaded "cheaper to keep her."
4) Deeply embedded belief in marriage.  I should have considered divorce in the first year of marriage when problems were clear, but, out of duty, I stayed. Problems grew.  Now with kids, my sense of duty to marriage and children are even stronger.
5) protect the kids.  As you say, if I can model positive parenting and support the kids, I hope they can learn to recognize and benefit from it.  I am still conflicted about what I am modeling though, should they all troop through a cold angry marriage because dad did?  My older HS and college kids seem to not form any romantic interests, much less relationships.  I know it's not for everyone and they don't need to be in love or curious, but, is my example turning them off to companionship?  Maybe.

I do not believe that if I divorce (or not) that I could one day model a healthy relationship by having another marriage that was happy and healthy. I don't think kids understand adult relationships enough to take notes on what dad's doing, and what marriage is supposed to be.  Seeing you happy later I do not think will reverse damage done, maybe add to the confusion and doubt if anything.  There are a few recommended books on parenting in divorce.  "What About the Kids" - Walerstein; "Putting Children First" - Pedro-Carroll, to name two.

To use your phrase, I feel like I'm powering through an arranged marriage, maybe, but I haven't seen one up close, so I don't know for sure. I do know my wife changed when we married, so, in some sense it's a surprise / arranged marriage.

Generally, I still show affection to my wife, with hugs, not kisses (that takes two), kind words, normal greetings, asking about stuff and following up, being empathetic (though my wife would argue here that I do not).  I am who I am, and keep going.  She does complain that I'm not giving her romance, and time, and listening, etc.  I try, but, it is sort of a cycle.  Which comes first, me feeling loved or her feeling loved, then who shows it first to the other and starts it?  Who fakes it best?

In general, I let my DGAF meter creep up, and up, until I started just living my own life.  

I have had occasions in which I had to tell my kids that mom's behavior is not normal (disappearing for the day, crying, lashing out, etc.) and not okay, but, dad will be there and love you and take care of you the best he can.  Sometimes talking about marriage has a "do as I say, not as I do" feeling.

*DGAF - Don't Give a F&&K
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mmcnulty
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2017, 09:18:38 AM »

Just my opinion, in a figurative sense, you're holding onto an electric fence, wondering how to make it stop shocking you.
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2017, 09:28:12 AM »

Just my opinion, in a figurative sense, you're holding onto an electric fence, wondering how to make it stop shocking you.

I like.
Can you pull the fuse out for me?
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2017, 02:23:21 PM »

I wanted to share an update since I last posted in January.

SamwizeGamgee's devotion to his children and ideals inspired me to re-enter the fray with renewed purpose and the strongest DGAF armor I have ever worn. Over weeks and months this carried me further--and matured me more--than anything in years. It gave me hope that I can still be a positive role model and father for my children in our household, and stay reasonably sane married to a woman who likely will never be able to love me or allow herself to be loved by me in any lasting mature and healthy way.

Unfortunately my heart isn't protected by this armor. Recently I tried to get closer to her and for a few days it seemed to be happening. My hope was rising and she was even reciprocating a bit. It almost felt natural. You can probably guess what happened. She split me black in What the heck sucker-punch style that dropped me to my knees.

As others here know, when they do that you sort of put them at arm's length and shake your head at how abnormal and unhealthy it is, then you realize you vowed to love them and never forsake them. Then you realize your love and your not leaving is apparently hurting them deeply, but you'd better not stop loving/hurting them or dare leave them because you (and likely your children) will get hurt in unimaginable ways.

The wisest strategy I can think of at this point is to keep wearing the DGAF armor in combination with strictly enforced boundaries but maintaining a careful balance and don't become too tough.

Problem is, last time I stayed firm and stuck to my boundaries, I thought I had discovered that her bark is worse than her bite. In truth what happened is she began painting herself as a victim of emotional abuse, feeding that to her sympathetic family who are nice people but who believe she is the best person in the world. When I got wind of that, I never felt so alone and helpless in my life.

There are no easy answers but I can say I truly respect SamwizeGamgee and understand quite a bit of what he's gone through, although I suspect he is made of stronger stuff than I am.
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2017, 02:44:52 PM »

Hey Mr. B, I admire your courage to reenter the BPD ring, so-to-speak, armed with your DGAF attitude, yet it seems like you wound up flat on your back again, or at least dropped to your knees, which sounds discouraging.  What are your gut feelings?  How do you see this playing out for you?  You don't say anything about your own happiness.  Is that not part of the equation?  It seems like you are living a life of quiet desperation again, which is what I did for many years.  As I mentioned above, it's important to take steps to take care of yourself and recharge your batteries, because it's easy to get run down and depleted, as I did, in a marriage to a pwBPD.  Keep us posted.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2017, 12:55:35 PM »

Hey Mr. B, I admire your courage to reenter the BPD ring, so-to-speak, armed with your DGAF attitude, yet it seems like you wound up flat on your back again, or at least dropped to your knees, which sounds discouraging.  What are your gut feelings?  How do you see this playing out for you?  You don't say anything about your own happiness.  Is that not part of the equation?
Thanks for asking, Lucky Jim. Forgive me if this is long but I'm sure you understand the desperation.

My gut feeling is if I continue this way, I will deteriorate emotionally and physically to the point where I cannot manage my roles as bread-winner and father. I have no hope in marital counseling (or resources for prolonged counseling), having already tried it and watched my wife outfox the counselors while nailing me to the cross.

My gut knows I am happier without her. In fact despite all my missteps these ~14 years, I have managed to grow as a person. When I taste life out from under the toxic shadow of this relationship, I am shocked how happy I feel. It's like sunshine on the face of a freed prisoner. I am reminded once again that I'm not a bad person. These convictions are deepened by the fact I am also no longer the pathetic boy-knight in shining armor who sacrifices his health and happiness to save the damsel he cannot save.

My gut also knows my wife is unhappy in this marriage too. Her high-functioning BPD makes the unhappiness more paradoxical, but as best I can tell she fully believes that for ~14 years the man she married undervalues her and mostly doesn't love her. She has more or less tested me to divorce her several times over the years, but my convictions and fear for my children made that taboo. Yet we are both weary and unhappy.

The part I struggle with is that I don't believe divorce would be better for my children, certainly not my youngest. While it's rough for me, I deflect, bite my tongue, swallow my pride, and turn the cheek enough to keep the house fairly calm (albeit tense). My oldest already knows Mom has "issues" but having watched other fathers destroyed by unjust divorce courts (and false accusations by ex's), I can easily see getting less than 50% custody while my wife spins out of control and exposes the kids to much uglier scenes than they witnessed in our marriage. My life experience has taught me that hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, except a BPD woman scorned. I could easily see her hooking up with some questionable guys based on past irrational behaviors when she was feeling rejected. I don't think I could live with myself if that happened, and I have no resources for a legal battle. On the other hand, she is high-functioning with many positive traits that may provide enough counter balance. And if she really is that unhappy with me, I expect she's going to feel that delicious sense of freedom too.

So to answer your question, my gut feeling is that I should stick to my boundaries and use the inevitable clashes and splitting to gently test the divorce dialog and watch her behavior as she digests the idea as a real possibility.

I would appreciate hearing your opinion.
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2017, 03:38:12 PM »

Hello again, Mr. B., Well, I was once in your shoes so I know the quandary in which you find yourself, which can get discouraging.  Yes, I understand your desperation.

Excerpt
My gut feeling is if I continue this way, I will deteriorate emotionally and physically to the point where I cannot manage my roles as bread-winner and father.

This actually happened to me, which is why I concur that you can't go on indefinitely in this fashion.  Like you, I was married with two small children.  I depleted my emotional, physical and financial resources to the point where I had nothing left in the tank, so-to-speak.  It's no fun to have a crash landing, believe me.  Fortunately two kind friends and a family member conducted an intervention on me, which brought me back from the brink.

I'm sharing my story as a cautionary tale about what can happen if the deterioration goes unchecked.  Yet you have a lot more self-awareness than I did, which is a positive sign.

I have more to say, but have to sign off for now.  I would like to relate a crazy fantasy I used to entertain about escaping from the toxic BPD soup.  No, you are neither a bad person nor a failure.

Hang in there,

LuckyJim







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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2017, 01:55:15 AM »

Just my opinion, in a figurative sense, you're holding onto an electric fence, wondering how to make it stop shocking you.

Best.quote.ever.
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2017, 09:00:24 AM »

MB - it's good to hear from you again.  I read your post and was struck with how well you describe your situation as you have made an assessment, and then more impressed with how I can identify with your comments and feelings.  My wife outfoxing the authorities, while nailing me to the cross is about how I would expect my divorce ordeal to go.  Very well spoken.

I would point out that I think there's no way to gently test the idea of divorce. At least not the reality.  I think we all know that pwBPD hear what they are feeling they are hearing, so, you might think that you are saying something testing, and exploring the idea of divorce, while she might be hearing you apologize for some past deeds. We know that talking to a toddler is different, and they just don't grasp some topics. It's the same with pw BPD, they hear what they want.   

And thank you for your praise, though I shouldn't want to enable someone to stay in an abusive relationship longer than necessary.  So, don't follow me, I'm lost too
Thank you for your kind words though.  We'll keep going and figure this out.
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2017, 11:12:14 AM »

If you want to save yourself and your marriage, including doing the best you can for your children, there is something they say on every airplane trip:

Excerpt
Put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others.

My point is this--if YOU aren't healthy, if you aren't strong, you cannot make your marriage any better. You cannot do the right thing for your children.

My gut feeling is if I continue this way, I will deteriorate emotionally and physically to the point where I cannot manage my roles as bread-winner and father.

And that is key. You need to find a way to make your marriage work that lets you not just survive, but heal (emotionally) and grow stronger.

That means taking care of yourself first.

Taking the ":)GAF" approach often encourages you to stay present with her and try not to be hurt by the rejection, verbal abuse, etc.

While the detachment is good for you, even needed, you still cannot experience this crap without a cost to you. You need to remove yourself more promptly from this kind of abuse. As you practice this, you will get stronger.

In addition, you say you are committed to staying in the marriage for your children. If you do this, please re-define what your marriage will be under these circumstances:

Unfortunately my heart isn't protected by this armor. Recently I tried to get closer to her and for a few days it seemed to be happening. My hope was rising and she was even reciprocating a bit. It almost felt natural. You can probably guess what happened. She split me black in What the heck sucker-punch style that dropped me to my knees.

Your marriage can 'work' but it you will have to hold back part of your heart, knowing you cannot trust her to be gentle with it. She isn't safe to be an open soul mate you share everything with. She isn't capable of doing that.

You need to plan on a marriage where you do not get this from her. Instead, you will be taking on a bit of an emotional caretaker role for her, because emotionally she's not an adult, not somebody you can treat as an equal.

You can't even acknowledge this directly with her or talk about it with her.
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2017, 03:37:08 PM »

My point is this--if YOU aren't healthy, if you aren't strong, you cannot make your marriage any better. You cannot do the right thing for your children.

And that is key. You need to find a way to make your marriage work that lets you not just survive, but heal (emotionally) and grow stronger.

That means taking care of yourself first.

Taking the ":)GAF" approach often encourages you to stay present with her and try not to be hurt by the rejection, verbal abuse, etc.

While the detachment is good for you, even needed, you still cannot experience this crap without a cost to you. You need to remove yourself more promptly from this kind of abuse. As you practice this, you will get stronger.
Great insight and advice. Can you recommend any resources for learning how to do this?

For example, if I distance myself too far, she becomes incredibly insecure and lights pre-emptive fires that make life hell or lead us to divorce discussion.
Quote from: Grey Kitty
In addition, you say you are committed to staying in the marriage for your children. If you do this, please re-define what your marriage will be under these circumstances:

Your marriage can 'work' but it you will have to hold back part of your heart, knowing you cannot trust her to be gentle with it. She isn't safe to be an open soul mate you share everything with. She isn't capable of doing that.

You need to plan on a marriage where you do not get this from her. Instead, you will be taking on a bit of an emotional caretaker role for her, because emotionally she's not an adult, not somebody you can treat as an equal.

You can't even acknowledge this directly with her or talk about it with her.
This to me is the crazy-making part of this. I cannot have a soul mate who is emotionally part three-year-old. And to be unable to mention this to the person whom others see as a wise soul who offers sage advice, is maddening and exhausting.

I think I have resisted this reality and found myself unable to stomach being the caretaker because it seems wrong in so many ways to think of your spouse as another child in your house. I know it deep down but I don't seem to accept it. Plus there's the risk of being patronizing, using the wrong tone, etc. I'm constantly facing these damned if I do, damned if I don't scenarios.

My parental instinct for her last episode would be to say, "Your behavior was completely unacceptable by any adult relationship standards. You were selfish and spitefully cruel. What's more, you never apologized or even acknowledged your part in the episode. You obliterated every kind thing I did, dredged up ancient faults, and behaved like a three-year-old child. Try to imagine how you would feel about me if I did this to you, or held that in front of your nose, or behaved that way in front of our children... ." etc.

Another part of the DGAF I find challenging is when I am stronger, I respect her less. I find myself chuckling inside at the absurdity of her behavior (though never to her face) when I'm not pitying her. This could be my own flaw but it's the natural course for me and offers a bit of solace, yet is contrary to my notions of love and devotion I want to have for my spouse.

I have read a few stories by people in situations similar to mine. If I manage to pull this off, I think I have a 50/50% chance of her demanding a divorce. She is mostly push these days. I get very little pull, although I appreciate the scraps of kindness when they come.

It took me a long time to learn that love does not conquer all and that shining armor is best suited to the battlefields of war, not love. And yet my children exist because I wore that armor and made those assumptions about love.

My instinct still says if I don't stick to this and embrace the cactus, so to speak, my children are going to become burdened down and robbed. I remember when my parents divorced. It was fun to hang out with dad and invigorating to witness his increased vitality, but when I returned to Mom she was barely holding things together. Life's foundations became spongy and uncertain. It no longer felt as safe to be a kid anymore. I instinctively became Mom's emotional caretaker while Dad became my friend, and I never learned how to take care of myself.

But saying that, I realize I have a chance of demonstrating to my children how an adult takes care of himself.

Now if only somebody could show me how to do that within my own psychic and physical boundaries.
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2017, 04:09:47 PM »

Excerpt
Another part of the DGAF I find challenging is when I am stronger, I respect her less. I find myself chuckling inside at the absurdity of her behavior (though never to her face) when I'm not pitying her. This could be my own flaw but it's the natural course for me and offers a bit of solace, yet is contrary to my notions of love and devotion I want to have for my spouse.

Agree w/that, Mr. B.  Towards the end, I came to see my W as a selfish a**h**e with whom I would never want to hang out if we weren't married, which is a sad state of affairs for a marriage.  Yet as one gets healthier, it's hard to avoid that conclusion.  I lost all respect for her (maybe she did for me, too).  Now I can see that it's all part of her disorder, yet it became impossible for me to live with the constant abuse.

I'm not suggesting that you should follow in my footsteps; rather, I'm saying that I understand where you're coming from and will try to help point you in the right direction.

LJ


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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2017, 06:15:11 PM »

For example, if I distance myself too far, she becomes incredibly insecure and lights pre-emptive fires that make life hell or lead us to divorce discussion.

You can't avoid that. Or at least you can't avoid all of it. If she can beat you down by lighting fires and threatening to divorce you, you lose. When you try to enforce boundaries, she WILL resist, she will escalate her bad/abusive behavior.

You have to pick your issues, take your stand, and power through it. (NOTE: There is a lot more detail to what and how, more tools, and we can help you plan for it... .but the start is deciding that you are willing to do what you can to make things better in the marriage that you have.)

Excerpt
This to me is the crazy-making part of this. I cannot have a soul mate who is emotionally part three-year-old. And to be unable to mention this to the person whom others see as a wise soul who offers sage advice, is maddening and exhausting.

Another part of the DGAF I find challenging is when I am stronger, I respect her less. I find myself chuckling inside at the absurdity of her behavior (though never to her face) when I'm not pitying her.

You are attached to the idea of an idealized soul mate partner who is devoted to you and is an emotional equal. Perhaps she exists. But the woman you are married to isn't capable of that ideal. Not even close.

Your choice to stay in a marriage for your children is your choice to have a different kind of marriage than that. Yes, it is a bitter pill to swallow, and maybe you cannot do it.

But pretending that she is somebody she's not and is capable of things she's not will only make for more suffering for you, and her as well. As you said, she's not happy with the status quo either.
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2017, 04:36:26 PM »

Mrblister:

It sounds like your doing an amazing job working on yourself and getting your life straight.

I can empathize with what your going through being in my 2nd year divorced from a exBPDw high functioning. we we're married for 14 years and i have 50/50 custody for the 5 kids ages 13 and younger.

Don't believe the naysayers that the courts will believe her, as she has convinced you that she is as close to perfect as they come, it has nothing to do with why you get custody and everything to do with what is best for the kids.

Work on taking care of yourself and building up your self esteem. A healthy you would not even consider staying with an abusive spouse.  Yes it will be challenging for you and the kids, but at-least you have a shot while now, you know you don't.  

My Ex continues to act as the victim with the kids so they kids DO feel bad for her, but on the flip side, I'm not their friend, rather I remain the Father. I'm trying to teach them healthy boundaries, self respect, empathy and confidence so they don't repeat the cycle when they grow up.  They don't have to love me now as their friend (a mistake many make) they just have to respect me as a father and someone who only wants the best for them.

Once you get out of the FOG (Fear, Guilt & Obligation)  you will see the world in a whole different way. Your biggest struggle will likely be forgiving yourself for why you waited so long. But you will also know that you are human and you can only do the best you can and that the best gift you can give to your kids.

as for SamwizeGamgee Your deep in the FOG. Know that the kids see right though it all and what will you tell them when they grow up, meet a disordered spouse and think its normal b/c its the same as mom and dad. then you come running and tell them not to repeat your mistakes. Would you believe it?

The best thing you can do for kids is to let go of fantasies. the dream of the perfect marriage with a disordered spouse is not going to happen and show the kids the although life can throw you many curve balls, its totally up to you to hit them out of the park. Striking out or being the Co-dependent and walking is simply NOT an option.

Stop feeling bad for yourself. Make bold decisions and don't second guess yourself. Money, your friends, house and all the toys are all replaceable but your TIME never is.


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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2017, 12:54:15 PM »

Thank you all for supporting me and offering wisdom from your experience. It's a lifeline right now.

@insideout77 - Your story gives me hope. We align closely in years married and children count and age. I hope you can follow this thread and offer your insights and opinions.

A recent episode with her reminded me that her core dysfunction--that fragile, bitter, unforgiving, score-keeping, vengeful inner child--remains ever present. It sabotages any and all attempts at true emotional vulnerability, intimacy, and maturity. It attacks, blames, distorts, evades, justifies, and projects its faults.

As I see it I have two options:

1) Stay in the marriage. If I stay, I think I can handle:

- Accepting I will never have a soul mate whom I can love or be loved by deeply, freely, and happily even though I feel entirely capable of such love.
- Accepting that my children will never witness deep and meaningful love between their parents, but will at least get to see practical expressions (dates, gifts, favors) and occasionally spurts of closeness and fun (and the inevitable splits they won't understand).
- Accepting that I will have to be armed with DGAF and work hard on my self-esteem and self-care, and learn to avoid many "normal" relational interactions with my wife.
- Accepting that much personal happiness (or potential for happiness) will be deferred in order to be there in the house for my children. I will be busy keeping my powder dry and being intentional, hoping they at least look back as adults and see I tried.

If I stay, I may not be able to handle:

- The sense of faking it. My children will know if I'm not happy.
- Pretending to love someone I don't respect. Maybe I can change my love lenses to just focus on her good qualities and forgive all else, but that's going to take work. I do love her, or try anyway. But she will never stop reminding how she isn't feeling perfectly loved, and that might be too much for me while I'm increasingly sacrificing.
- Trudging on with self-sacrifice and using up my last good years while she continues to resent me and refuses to even work or take care of herself physically.
- The gnawing sense of how much happier I'd have been if I'd left and curated my own happiness.

2) End the marriage as strategically and as gently as possible. This one is all about things I would not be able to handle:

- My wife alienates my children from me and robs them of their childhood by requiring even more emotional support from them. I become the bad guy. I don't think I'm strong enough to handle that reality knowing if I had stayed it would not have happened.
- My kids end up living with some guy who at best will rinse and repeat our marriage, and at worst introduce negative influence I cannot control. This is likely because she hasn't worked a FT job in years and she claims even PT is taking too much of her parenting time.
- Knowing I'm missing out on the daily dainties of fatherhood. 50/50 custody would take at least half of these away. To not be there when they stub a toe or need a boost of courage or just some dad silliness is tough, especially imagining my wife is painting me the bad guy the entire time. I picture myself spending my 50% of custody undoing damage from her 50%.

Please let me know your opinions. I am at a crossroads here and in life circumstances which could change significantly depending on which options I choose.
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2017, 01:22:48 PM »

Hey Mr. B, There is no map.  We can't tell you what is the best option for you.  I suggest you listen to your gut feelings.  Get centered and work outwards.  What assumptions are you making that might be limiting your options?  Despite what you may have been told, there's no particular requirement that one's marriage has to follow a certain pattern.  It's up to you to find a format that works best for you.  Others don't really know what it's like on the inside of a BPD marriage.  I do, and many others here do as well, so keep us posted.

LJ
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2017, 02:45:18 PM »


misterblister:

Your very detailed post sounds to me like your doing alot of thinking and trying to plan things out. looking at the many options and not sure which road to take.

I am going to share a thought about the last point you make b/c the ones that deal with you staying in the marriage can be debated for hours and ultimately  only you know your marriage.

I believe that when you live with a BPD many of their bad traits actually start to rub off on you after many years. The experts call it Flee's. I am sure you would agree that your BPD wife is always trying control you. Yet if you look closely at yourself you will realize that in our defense of that control we counter with control of our own.

One of the biggest challenges I had in leaving the marriage was trying to control the outcome and it took a while for me to hold tight and finally realize that I con't control anything. I can barely control my own life never mind anyone else's. To me that is a huge relief. Because while at the beginning of the divorce I would stress about every scenario that may or may not happen.

I have 90% let go of that and I am free b/c of it.  I don't stress anymore about what will or won't be b/c I don't control it and I have little say over what will or won't happen. What the ExW will or won't do. What the Courts will or won't rule. I can make a strong case and I did and I ultimately got everything I wanted. But it wasn't my brilliant control that made it happen. It was actually letting go of the control and focusing on the thing that I can control  "ME" and focusing on making me a better person.

Bottom line: you have absolutely zero clue how the divorce will play out and you don't control her reaction and nor are you responsible for it. A person is only responsible for their action. Her re-action no matter how great the excuse is and how much she will try to lay the guilt on, is not on you!

Once you free yourself of this guilt, obligation and  fear, the sky will be the limit for you in your life, b/c im willing to bet there are few challenges you can ever come across in life that are greater than the one you face today!

hugs - IO
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2017, 03:44:17 PM »

misterblister:I believe that when you live with a BPD many of their bad traits actually start to rub off on you after many years. The experts call it Flee's. I am sure you would agree that your BPD wife is always trying control you. Yet if you look closely at yourself you will realize that in our defense of that control we counter with control of our own.

Bottom line: you have absolutely zero clue how the divorce will play out and you don't control her reaction and nor are you responsible for it. A person is only responsible for their action. Her re-action no matter how great the excuse is and how much she will try to lay the guilt on, is not on you!
Thank you. A great reminder of some lessons I began learning in the last few years. For some reason I emerged into adulthood thinking I could fix people and situations. Gradually I discovered I was very bad at it, then gradually I realized I couldn't do it at all. At first I felt like a failure and then I realized I was just on a fool's errand. Even with people I loved dearly, it did not work. It dawned on me that I was the only person I had any control over. Even my kids, on the surface at least, don't appear to be under my sway in the sense I imagined.

The hard part for me is no matter how hard I try to control my words or actions, with my wife it strikes her as negative, either striking a new blow or opening an old wound. It always contradicts my inner intent. This is the crazy-making recipe that sabotages self-esteem and self-trust.

Of course I can keep learning to improve my tone or word choice, but in a healthy relationship these misunderstandings and speed bumps are resolved through forgiveness and trust and other loving qualities. In the BPD relationship that doesn't seem to happen. Instead it feels like all I can do is rebuild sand castles too close to the tide while shouting "I'm sorry" until I'm hoarse.

Control and letting go are definitely challenges for me. I suspect those are profound personality deficits that, once excavated, may elevate my happiness and freedom to new heights.
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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2017, 10:01:26 AM »

Well that was quick. A couple of conversations later, my wife is now asking for a separation.

I am embarrassed that only a couple of days ago I was assuming I had control over this relationship. No doubt more than one of you told me the truth, but old habits die hard.

Regardless, things are different this time and here are some observations:

1. I realized that for most of this marriage, I have been tip-toeing and ducking and forgiving and basically defusing this inevitable situation. In other words, had I behaved and responded appropriately and with boundaries, she would have found the relationship intolerable and I would have found her behavior intolerable. Her behavior right now is completely familiar to me, but I previously rode out the storms and made awkward peace which allowed her to pull back.

2. I realized I am stronger now than before. I don't know why but I think it's a combination of growth through some tough challenges over the last few years, combined with a rising sense that time is short and life is too precious to waste.

3. I have managed to keep my cool. Aside from hanging up on her when she called an unkind name, I've not knowingly done or said anything out of spite or revenge. Sometimes I'll test the waters and try to engage in a normal dialog but so far she's all claws and teeth, so I mostly steer clear.

4. insideaout77's advice about letting go and control are empowering me to be able to accept this reality. It's part of what's making me strong. The sense I have is that so long as I stay strong and stable, not much else is within my control but things will work out OK.

5. My wife is doing that surreal thing where she suddenly is like Mary Poppins to everyone else, as if nothing is wrong, but is privately vicious and calculating hurt on me. I realize this is her coping method but I also realize it's not healthy. She doesn't see that others, including the children, can often see through it.

6. Interacting with her during emotional times has convinced me there is nothing I could say or do to make her like me, much less love me. Nor can I ever defend myself or even get apologies accepted. While I should know this after ~14 years, keep in mind I've mostly avoided these confrontations.

7. She is teaming up with her family and filling their ears. They're generally good people and more mature than her, but she remains perfect in their eyes, and thus the victim. This part is especially hard for me. Experience has shown me blood is always thicker than water, but I do have a little hope that if I keep my cool and play fair, they may provide some counterweight that makes this smoother.

8. Practically speaking, her bite may be as bad as her bark this time. I feel I need to plan for her to up and leave, empty bank accounts, etc. I suspect this because this time I think her family is encouraging her to stand up to me.

Once again please share any advice you may find useful to my present situation.
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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2017, 10:20:03 AM »

MB- I'm not sure I can offer much sage advice.  But, can I share a few minutes sitting next to you as we huddle in the trenches?
1. I am discovering that I'm mad at myself for letting me get to where I am now.  I look back and say that no self-respecting man would have put up with what I gave into, and worked around - even from the start.  It was bad, I knew it on some level, but I just stayed in it. And look where I am now.  Deeper.  So, I get your first point.
2. Right there too.  I hit a point at which I couldn't determine which was worse between death, marriage, or divorce. I got much better, but at what point am I going to live my life?  Which goes back to point 1, above.  Get busy living or get busy dying.  Am I going to spend the next 20 years like the last - making sure my wife is having a decent life?  At the cost of my own?
... .
5. Mary Poppins.  You married her too? On the outside, she's everything. Mrs Hyde lives inside.

I am sorry you're in this situation.  I think I have been tricking myself into believing that I have the upper hand and the initiative - and the deciding vote - on my marriage or divorce, but, once angered, she might surprise me with a new wave of wrath and things could get bad much faster that I can ever imagine. 
I wish you well.  It's times like these when it can come down to you and your gut, and that's the home team roster. 
good luck!
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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2017, 11:47:32 AM »



I am embarrassed that only a couple of days ago I was assuming I had control over this relationship. No doubt more than one of you told me the truth, but old habits die hard.

Once again please share any advice you may find useful to my present situation.

There is no need to be, you are doing amazing and be proud of how far you have come. Divorce is harder than anything you have ever faced, but it actually ends, the pain ends and the light at the end of the tunnel is shining bright (as opposed to the dark hole your in now).

If your spouse is High Functioning as you said above, I'm going to throw in some personal experience pointers.

1. No one is going to believe you no matter what you say, so protect your integrity and clamp your lips. Her family is going to be there for her and that's just life. No one can ever understand what your life was and no amount of explaining to people will make a difference. You will likely lose all mutual friends. but just know, that all friends that run with her drama are taking the express train out of your life. That is good for you and you will make new and healthy friends that will accept you however you are and won't care that you are divorced from a seemingly perfect woman.

2. In my personal opinion and that which I have discovered through research, your Wife is not calculating in the sense that she is trying to figure out how to screw you. She is simply focused on herself as she always has been. Its not about you and never has been. It may help you not take everything so personally especially when the lies about you start circulating even more. She is simply a toddler who is having a temper tantrum. Tune it out. Even if there are half truths. you do not need to defend yourself to anyone and nor does anyone care to hear. People just want gossip.

3. Kids:  I have found my relationship with the kids improved dramatically after the divorce and with 50/50 I am spending alot of time with them. I can be their father with no influence from her and its refreshing and invigorating. Keep the kids out of it. Hold firm and don't let her bait you into discussing anything with the kids. remember every fight and conversation needs two people and if your not willing to engage, it sucks the air out every issue very quickly. Like teaching your kids, hold firm to your boundaries, b/c you know when you give into your kids even once, your essentially starting all over again from scratch.

4. Last but really first. RUN to your lawyer or interview one if you don't have one and get your right in order. There is plenty of advice out there on finding one if you need it.  But do not give in on anything , including moving, separating etc, until your lawyer agrees that its right for you and protects your rights. Do not believe anything she says as she will lie, cheat and deceive to get her way. To her this is an act of desperation, b/c she is preserving her perfect persona for all to to see. She doesn't even want the kids, she Just needs them so she can look like the perfect mother. You will not recognize her in a short time.  Do not tell her you are speaking to one and do this on your own. start looking out for you and the kids only.

All the above may or may not help. But either way, just think of the worse case scenario than recognize that even it does happen its totally out of your control even in the unlikely even that it does happen. So let go right now and start the rebuild.  The great thing about hitting what feels to be rock bottom is that it only goes up from there!

IO
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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2017, 11:59:27 AM »

MB- I'm not sure I can offer much sage advice.  But, can I share a few minutes sitting next to you as we huddle in the trenches?

2. Right there too.  I hit a point at which I couldn't determine which was worse between death, marriage, or divorce. I got much better, but at what point am I going to live my life?  Which goes back to point 1, above.  Get busy living or get busy dying.  Am I going to spend the next 20 years like the last - making sure my wife is having a decent life?  At the cost of my own?


I would like to humbly add a thought:

Just trust because you can't possibly know -

The life that you discover once you come out of the FOG is infinitely greater than you can even possibly fathom when you are in the FOG.  In my opinion that is what is also holding most of us tied in these crazy challenges. If we truly knew how amazing it could be, the decision would be so much easier. We you are trapped in chaos for 20 years, you can't possibly fathom what true freedom minus all the stress even feels like. Because trust me, if you did - you would run oh so fast.
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