This is complicated

[Bowman]

I'd love to find a straight-up support group. I'm separated from my partner. Not sure what to do.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Bowman]

Can anyone help?

[Skip]

Can you give us a little more detail? We'd like to help.

[Bowman]

We are married. We had a fight. She left.

[Skip]

What was the fight about?

[Bowman]

She has been checked out of the relationship for a while.

[Skip]

How about a few more words 

There are often reoccurring disputes in a relationship, what is it that you all fight about? What is her reoccurring beef? What is yours?

[SinisterComplex]

I'd love to find a straight-up support group. I'm separated from my partner. Not sure what to do.

Bowman, I know this stuff may not be easy to talk about. We all get it here and understand. However, in order for us to support you give us some more insight into your situation so that we can support you. The more you put in the more you get back here.

Share as much as you want to and ask as many questions as you need to.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[Bowman]

There are often reoccurring disputes in a relationship, what is it that you all fight about? What is her reoccurring beef? What is yours?

Fights were frequent in depressive phases for my wdBPD. Usually kitchen sinking all the things she didn't like about me was the MO, from appearance to behavior, but rarely if ever something grievous. The only beef she had that was recurrent, was that I was open with my addictions and my recovery. After we got married her self harm pattern got swapped out for leaving/ divorcing one, and was a constant threat in fights. After our separation it was claims of abuse and imprisonment.

Don't know if I have a beef outside of what could be pathologized by the PD. What I think broke us would be a beef though, having to endure many hours, and many days in a week of denigration--without reacting. I reacted this time, which felt like the catalyst.

The fight we had was me asking to explain why I felt unheard and slighted by earlier behavior in a conversation, this launched into an hours long fight, which turned into a separation, I of course have still not been allowed to be heard.

[Skip]

Do you think she is running from her problems; as opposed to running to a solution? It's a big difference.

Do you think that she was just barely surviving her struggles outside of the home and she was taking it out on you as a relief? It is not uncommon for someone with BPD traits to find comfort in making another person feel pain (like they are feeling). This is not healthy. Not unusual. It is a defense mechanism. It is helping her.

I say this for two reasons.

If she is running away from trouble,

.	a) don't make it feel like that trouble is following her, as she will run harder and b) if she is not running to something, there is more likelihood she will return. Be patient.

Well managed "space" is the best thing you can do.

Part of that is dropping anything related to the previous fight (solve your needs another way - possibly here) and dropping discussions about the relationship and reconciling (be a nice interesting guy).

Part of that is making your world successful and eventually enticing. Fight the emotional forces that are bringing you down, and use this time to make home better.

Does that make sense?

It's a tall order. It's your best chance.

Any thoughts on what you coiuld do?

[Bowman]

Do you think she is running from her problems; as opposed to running to a solution? It's a big difference.

Do you think that she was just barely surviving her struggles outside of the home and she was taking it out on you as a relief? It is not uncommon for someone with BPD traits to find comfort in making another person feel pain (like they are feeling). This is not healthy. Not unusual. It is a defense mechanism. It is helping her.

Yes I do think she is running from her problems, and the historic act would be to run to a perceived solution (like a new or former relationship). I think she did feel stuck, and like she was running out of time, and the negative feelings do seem projected on to me, i.e. me being blamed for everything bad that has occurred.

I feel like I have relented in every regard to what she wanted; I did not resist her leaving and facilitated things, I have packed her things and am coordinating shipping, I have only contacted her when she initiated contact. However, I told her I am not ok with filing a divorce, but will not resist her doing so.

What can I do to help her manage her pain? What could I inform those who are taking care of her to help her manage her pain?

What in what space should I be managing?

It makes a lot of sense, I appreciate your insight.

[Skip]

What can I do to help her manage her pain? What could I inform those who are taking care of her to help her manage her pain?

Trying to "mother her", direct or with proxies, is only going to push her away. She has to heal herself. Give her time to do that. And don't touch the subject with a 10 ft pole. She'll just erect more barriers. Write it down - paste it to your mirror. No conversations about your relationship or her mental health unless asked.

If asked, just be supportive. Don't make her leaving about her mental health - that will sound like blaming.

What in what space should I be managing?

When she reaches out to you, have happy interesting things to talk about. Go on a "Habitat for Humanity" build or become a dog walker at the "Rise Rescue Alliance" or something else that is uplifting.

When she reaches out, share a heartwarming story and pictures about an old dog that found a loving home (or something - this is just an example0.



Clean up the house. Go to the Gym. Show her something uplifting to come back to.

Make sense?

[Bowman]

Trying to "mother her", direct or with proxies, is only going to push her away. She has to heal herself. Give her time to do that. And don't touch the subject with a 10 ft pole. She'll just erect more barriers. Write it down - paste it to your mirror. No conversations about your relationship or her mental health unless asked.

If asked, just be supportive. Don't make her leaving about her mental health - that will sound like blaming.
 

Many of these things have already been brought up over the course of the separation. It is confusing as her diagnosis and her struggle were something we talked about plainly at times, her even going so far as to have me keep her honest with herself and her therapists. It is a surreal experience to see self awareness gobbled up by a heightened emotional state, doubly so to not see its return for months..

How should that be addressed at this state? Contact doesn't seem open.

[kells76]

Hi Bowman and

Glad you felt ready to reach out and get some support and feedback. Your relationship is in a challenging position; it makes a lot of sense that you'd have some conflicted feelings about it, and at the same time have some pretty big drives to reconnect with her and repair the relationship.

This stood out to me, and I'm hoping you can fill it out a little more:

Yes I do think she is running from her problems, and the historic act would be to run to a perceived solution (like a new or former relationship). I think she did feel stuck, and like she was running out of time, and the negative feelings do seem projected on to me, i.e. me being blamed for everything bad that has occurred.

In what ways do you think she might have felt stuck? What was that about? And what do you think she perceived as a deadline or as "not enough time" for?

...

Not much to add to what Skip has shared besides to reiterate that so, so much about having an effective relationship with a pwBPD is deeply unintuitive.

Mainstream advice for relational issues is often to "talk it out", or have long conversations about The Issues, or to have deep emotional sessions with each other -- to keep going back and rehashing and digging up the past until the two of you achieve resolution. That is unlikely to be an effective path forward with a pwBPD. While each person is different, that kind of approach seems like it'd be overwhelming to a pwBPD, who already struggles with appropriate emotional management, and who can feel a profoundly uncomfortable sense of shame.

Focus less on what to say to her about the relationship, and more on doing relating differently. How you relate to her communicates just as much, if not more, than what you've said to her about the relationship.

...

Do you have some close friends you'd trust to give you honest feedback about your relating style? Sometimes getting a second set of eyes can help us understand the difference between "I thought I did an incredible job of listening to her all the time" and a friend saying "yeah, you know what, there's this thing you do that I don't think you notice, and it's ______"

Some friends are good at the rah-rah and 110% "you got this" optimism. There's a place for that. In this case, though, finding someone who's willing to move past that with you and really cut to the chase about: "this thing you do works, but this other thing you do, that you don't notice, might really bug her", seems important.

Just trying to think of some more approaches that can help shine light on stuff that's under your control right now to work on. None of this is about "you're bad if you do that", it's more about -- you want to reconnect with a very sensitive person and you're in the one-down position, so let's work all the angles to help you out.

[kells76]

Sorry, cross-posted as you posted this:

Many of these things have already been brought up over the course of the separation. It is confusing as her diagnosis and her struggle were something we talked about plainly at times, her even going so far as to have me keep her honest with herself and her therapists. It is a surreal experience to see self awareness gobbled up by a heightened emotional state, doubly so to not see its return for months..

How should that be addressed at this state? Contact doesn't seem open.

Am I tracking with you that you're asking how her diagnosis/mental health should be addressed right now, when in contact with her?

[Bowman]

In what ways do you think she might have felt stuck? What was that about? And what do you think she perceived as a deadline or as "not enough time" for?

Do you have some close friends you'd trust to give you honest feedback about your relating style? Sometimes getting a second set of eyes can help us understand the difference between "I thought I did an incredible job of listening to her all the time" and a friend saying "yeah, you know what, there's this thing you do that I don't think you notice, and it's ______"

We had an impending vacation with my family, she had not attended any events prior. She had not seen her family in years, despite offerings of airfare. She lost a job and is starting to feel her age due to lack of career/ job history. It is kind of nebulous, but she always expressed feeling behind, and specifically feeling behind due to her disorder and the damage it had done. I assured her frequently we are just on a path together, and benchmarks are for the journeyer to set. The deadline was clearly us leaving for our vacation, as she drew a line in the sand with respect to not going, despite the day prior discussing with me what to pack.

The few friends I have that are closest who I have confided in the most, don't have advice beyond reminding that what I endure is abuse, I have certainly learned a lot in explaining the pathologies via the diagnostic criteria and anecdotal evidences I have gathered. The only critique I can think of is one friend stated I don't provide discipline for crossed boundaries, another stated I don't erect boundaries much.

Sorry, cross-posted as you posted this:

Am I tracking with you that you're asking how her diagnosis/mental health should be addressed right now, when in contact with her?

Sorry, no, that was unclear. Her mental health has been a topic we have talked about throughout our time candidly. And during the separation aspects of it were mentioned by me as well.

I guess the question was more, pointed towards the cat was already out of that bag, is the topic still a no go zone?

Also, this also got me to recall, her therapists have been trying to get a hold of her, and i'm now getting the secondary calls as she isn't answering. I feel like having that would provide her with a useful resource, but I don't know how to encourage that to occur. I feel like that is ultimately my goal if ever to mention mental health; that she has resources to lean on and should use them.


"Focus less on what to say to her about the relationship, and more on doing relating differently. How you relate to her communicates just as much, if not more, than what you've said to her about the relationship."
This stands out to me beyond anything. The way in which we relate almost felt psychic, non-verbal, our friends stated we were so synchronous. We related through story-telling and artworks of all kinds, and speaking on how the world made us feel, the kinds of ineffable sensations, hard to convey without a unique language of emotion and shared experience.

[ForeverDad]

Also, this also got me to recall, her therapists have been trying to get a hold of her, and I'm now getting the secondary calls as she isn't answering. I feel like having that would provide her with a useful resource, but I don't know how to encourage that to occur. I feel like that is ultimately my goal if ever to mention mental health; that she has resources to lean on and should use them.

Years ago I read Get Me Out of Here — My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder by Rachel Reiland.  It's a paperback account by someone recovered from BPD.  It was exceedingly tough for her, but it turned out well for her and her family.

What helped so much was that her therapist drew a strong line/boundary concerning their interactions.  Her therapist remained absolutely neutral emotionally, not even touching.  (That's why you bear so much of the brunt of her behaviors, because your spouse can't get past the past emotional baggage - in a way, sensitized - of the years of close relationship with you to really listen to you.)

That book ended on a high note.  Only when her years of therapy were completed, at their last session, she got to hug her therapist for the very first and only time.

I mention this because experienced therapists are invaluable, partly because they do not have an emotional relationship like we here who are spouses, parents, children or relatives.  That distance reduces risk of guidance being rejected.  Let's hope she reconnects with her therapists, though the reality is there's only so much we can do, so much is up to her.

[Skip]

I feel like I have relented in every regard to what she wanted; I did not resist her leaving and facilitated things, I have packed her things and am coordinating shipping, I have only contacted her when she initiated contact. However, I told her I am not ok with filing a divorce, but will not resist her doing so.

You have to be strong in these relationships. Especially at times like now. We're saying it. I think your friends are saying it, too.

The first part of being strong is to not do things that make you look weak - to her or yourself. Don't be appear clingy or desperate or wounded - that's not attractive. Don't try to wash her feet while she is kicking you - let her take care of herself - she is telling you she wants to do that and she has some plan. It doesn't sound like a great plan, but let her come to that conclusion.

Give her space.

Your relationship failed. And while you don't want to lose her, you don't want to go back to the same problems. She doesn't either. Things need to change. And it will be helpful if you use this time to recalibrate yourself.

Sorry, no, that was unclear. Her mental health has been a topic we have talked about throughout our time candidly. And during the separation aspects of it were mentioned by me as well. I guess the question was more, pointed towards the cat was already out of that bag, is the topic still a no go zone?

If she wants to talk about the relationship, you should listen. If she wants to talk about her mental health, you should listen. But I wouldn't bring it up. Or try to coach others. Or fix things. Just listen. And if she doesn't bring it up, be OK.

Give her space to think things out on her own.

[ParentingThruIt]

I hear that you are worried about her.  How are you doing?  It seems like you may miss her / the relationship. It's ok to talk about all of that here.

You may not be able to take care of her any more the way you have in the past. And that might give her space to get help herself.  But either way you can take care of yourself.

I can relate to seeing reason go out the window when they are in a heightened emotional state. It's really hard. When I was more hopeful that things could work out with my uBPD ex, I was watching videos about a couple where one person has schizophrenia and how they talk openly about mental health, include the partner in some therapy sessions, and essentially during an episode they both understand that the partner w/ schizophrenia is unwell for a spell and the other one will take over. I am not sure how I could continue in the relationship unless something like this level of awareness was possible.

I can also relate to being extremely sad about the relationship ending / changing even as I am accepting that it's the only way.

[Bowman]

I hear that you are worried about her.  How are you doing?  It seems like you may miss her / the relationship. It's ok to talk about all of that here.

The constant harassment and vitriolic responses while still doing favours. The stark contrast is so much, it is bewildering.

It is really hard coping with how I am being treated currently during separation, after how I behaved and was treated while within the relationship.

[ParentingThruIt]

I'm so sorry you are experiencing that.  You're not alone.  It's not you.  It's her illness.

Those of us who stayed in these relationships for some time have all had the experience of a person we care about blaming us for their problems and projecting their own insecurities onto us.

There's also some chance that she will "flip" and treat you like the best thing ever, maybe seem like she is okay, maybe apologize.

It does really hurt. In my experience it's been a lot of grief for the loss -- of the good times, and of what I hoped for.

Are you able to set some boundaries on her communication? You're not obligated to read or listen to everything in real time. You can decide what and how to handle it.

[Bowman]

Are you able to set some boundaries on her communication? You're not obligated to read or listen to everything in real time. You can decide what and how to handle it.

Unfortunately no. The situation as it is, I cannot stop contact from occurring. Despite her having demanded that boundary, it keeps getting crossed.

It is agonizingly painful as I can see the projections, the build up, and the triggering event so clearly in retrospect. I wish there was a way to establish dialogue, or to curtail the period of rage.

[ParentingThruIt]

I agree, it's really painful and for me too it was much easier to see the patterns in retrospect.  When I was experiencing his rages, I eventually learned that it doesn't help if I get upset. I would sometimes verbally defend myself or correct a major factual issue, but I got less and less emotionally invested in what he said because I knew on some level that it wasn't coming from a sane place.

At the same time, it's exhausting.

I don't know your situation but I wonder if there are some boundaries you can set, such as times when you're willing to get on the phone or meet or read/respond to a text or email.

You didn't cause it, sadly you can't cure it, and you can't control it. :-(  But you can take care of yourself.

[Bowman]

I agree, it's really painful and for me too it was much easier to see the patterns in retrospect.  When I was experiencing his rages, I eventually learned that it doesn't help if I get upset. I would sometimes verbally defend myself or correct a major factual issue, but I got less and less emotionally invested in what he said because I knew on some level that it wasn't coming from a sane place.

At the same time, it's exhausting.

I don't know your situation but I wonder if there are some boundaries you can set, such as times when you're willing to get on the phone or meet or read/respond to a text or email.

You didn't cause it, sadly you can't cure it, and you can't control it. :-(  But you can take care of yourself.

Thank you for your consolation.

That's what is very frustrating is, within our first few months I learned how to set the foundations for conflict resolution, via studying conflict resolution for folks with BPD. In that time she even remarked that no one had the patience prior, family or otherwise. It was clear that she learned what buttons work on me the best, particularly those related to my addiction recovery, she is still pushing those buttons despite no contact. Unfortunately its not a boundary I can set, I do not respond, but I cannot control where the messages come from, and they come from anywhere.

[ParentingThruIt]

I'm so sorry. It sounds like you really tried.

[Bowman]

I'm so sorry. It sounds like you really tried.

I feel as though I did, my friends who have been close to us in our time together assure me I did everything I could and exercised more patience than most can, and they confirm that my priority was getting her the tools and environment she needed to help herself. But, still, i'm fully aware of how I triggered this catastrophic scenario and I lay blame at my own feet for what transpired, the reaction to what I said was what ended things, but I know my part in this confrontation.

The years of self doubt and emotional minimization are not helping to feel less guilty, its painful how one moment can define so much, maybe that's what I struggle with the most, the years of dedication and patience are not enough offset an occurrence of invalidation.

[Skip]

It is agonizingly painful as I can see the projections, the build up, and the triggering event so clearly in retrospect. I wish there was a way to establish dialogue, or to curtail the period of rage.

The upside of the communication, no matter how crappy it is, is that she is not through. If she was through, there would be silence. She is more likely deregulated and trying to cope with her bad feeling by dumping on you. It should help to see it for what it is.

1. Commit yourself to be strong. Don't take any of it personally.
2. Let her say what she has to say. Do justify, argue, defend, or explain. Just listen. Let her get it out.
3. When she runs out of gas, tell her you heard her and want a little time to think about what she is saying.
4. If the conversation switches to something non-relationship, be friendly and talk about it, but otherwise let her say what she wants to say and assure her that you are listening.
5. She will reach baseline eventually.

If she rages or screams, or gets totally out of control, tell her you will listen but she needs to be calm or you will need to put the phone down.

If its text messages, lets them stream in and when there is a break, tell her you heard her and want a little time to think about what she is saying. Don't get in a 1 for 1 text match.

Let's see what she is feeling. Don't worry if its wrong, let's try to understand her first.

This will be painful and it will have distortions, and misinformation - just accept that for now. They are only words. Lets fully understand where she is coming from.

Knowing this is an important first step. This is not about be a doormat or taking the blame for everything that sucks in her life - this is just listening.

And eat. Stay strong. You can handle this and eventually learn to manage these time better. For now, let her get it all out. She's hurting.

[Bowman]

The upside of the communication, no matter how crappy it is, is that she is not through. If she was through, there would be silence. She is more likely deregulated and trying to cope with her bad feeling by dumping on you. It should help to see it for what it is.

If she rages or screams, or gets totally out of control, tell her you will listen but she needs to be calm or you will need to put the phone down.

If its text messages, lets them stream in and when there is a break, tell her you heard her and want a little time to think about what she is saying. Don't get in a 1 for 1 text match.

Let's see what she is feeling. Don't worry if its wrong, let's try to understand her first.

This will be painful and it will have distortions, and misinformation - just accept that for now. They are only words. Lets fully understand where she is coming from.

Knowing this is an important first step. This is not about be a doormat or taking the blame for everything that sucks in her life - this is just litening.

And eat. Stay strong. You can handle this and eventually learn to manage these time better. For now, let her get it all out. She's hurting.

I appreciate your measured responses, thank you Skip.

I can certainly follow this advice, and I believe I understand its wisdom and accuracy. And, truly when we did have confrontation, I would endure hours of invective asking her to keep defining how and why she feels a way, until the crux of the matter presented itself to her through our reactive reflection. Similar with respect to texting or audio tirades, I would let the paragraphs roll in and tell her we need to speak in person after some time has passed. Those methods had been increasingly effective in mitigating emotional damage.

My difficulty is that all communication with her right now is either through the proxy of a mask or potentially another person, things are silent through the normal channels like phone numbers and primary social media accounts. Also, the communication is exclusively threats that i'm being watched, nothing else is being conveyed. I don't know how to describe the sensation other than its like a kid on the play ground bullying someone they like, except its defined by a kind of psychosis.

I think a second difficulty is that there is a social sphere that exists exclusively online, that has never known me beyond her venting/confiding about me--i'm certain there is a lot of validation regarding any claim she makes regarding our lives together. My fear is that this repetition and echo will create an impression of accuracy to whatever claim she makes.

I really hope that an opportunity for communication presents itself.

[Skip]

My difficulty is that all communication with her right now is either through the proxy of a mask or potentially another person, things are silent through the normal channels like phone numbers and primary social media accounts.

This is beyond juvenile. The only thing you can do is give it no feedback and no play in your head. I know you know that... but it's worth reinforcing.

I think a second difficulty is that there is a social sphere that exists exclusively online, that has never known me beyond her venting/confiding about me--i'm certain there is a lot of validation regarding any claim she makes regarding our lives together. My fear is that this repetition and echo will create an impression of accuracy to whatever claim she makes.

Yes, this goes on all the time on the Internet. Today there are even websites of psychopaths that reinforce the normality of psychopathic think. We even see if here at times where someone presents a very one sided view of their life and they get validated The moderators look for this to tamp it down. But, yes, it real. It called triangulation and it has been around a lot long than the Internet. We have a good article her: https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

The dynamic here is not so much that the others are influencing your wife as it is your wife seeking validation. And it sounds like her family is trying to center her, so you have that in your corner. That is big.

For now, all you can do is not feed it. And being hurt by it, feeds it. You don't want that. Be infinitely reasonable, but not a doormat. Be the adult in the room. Let it run it's course. You can't alter it. Truth is not an antidote.

I really hope that an opportunity for communication presents itself.

So do we. Were here for you to work through this as it plays out.