Validating without sounding Patronising

[50andwastedlife]

I am trying to use validating/boundary setting tools, and am not feeling very successful. I'm struggling to find an authentic voice for the validating (to counter the unpleasant monologue in my head that I'm not proud of, which for years has voiced what I really think but would never dare say, like a voiceover to a movie. One of those coping strategies which isn't really helping...!) So my husband, who has had over 40 years of therapy himself, is very adept at recognising inauthentic validation, and feels patronised which triggers his feelings of humiliation, which are his primary driver. And makes the whole thing worse! I suppose that in writing this, I can see that the trick would be to actually BE authentic, but I don't know how to do that either!!

Any suggestions would be most welcomed.

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[once removed]

I can see that the trick would be to actually BE authentic

this is the number one problem that most of us have run into when learning the communication techniques.

paradoxically, it is hard to "use" a "technique" on a person, in a way that isnt ultimately condescending and patronizing. especially since often times, we are using it to put out a fire, make the problem go away, fix the other person; invalidate, rather than validate. think about it. if someone did it to you, and someone probably has before, it would be maddening.

so the first step really, is to empathize, and empathy is a skill that takes practice, one everyone tends to overrate in themselves, but one that we can get better at. if you are able to empathize with another person, if youre able to see their point of view, and articulate it (not necessarily agree with it, or necessarily form the same conclusions), then you have found your validation target point.

another thing i think can get lost is what exactly validation is, and isnt. validation, at its core, is making someone feel seen and heard. there are lots of ways to do this! many, even, that require few, or no words. you can validate a person by not invalidating them; by practicing active listening. you can validate a person with a loving gesture; a hug, breakfast in bed, the little things you already do that make your partner feel loved and appreciated.

what youre finding, and what a lot of literature out there wont really tell you, is that while validation "works" with anyone, and our partners tend to need an extra dose of it, inauthenticity works with no one. you need to communicate with your partner in a way that sounds like you; that utilizes the context of your unique relationship, and the language you use. doubtless, in your many relationships throughout your life, you have done this successfully, and had it done to you successfully. recall those times. channel them. think about the difference between those times, and say, trying to formulate a combination of words to talk someone down (read: talk down to them). thats the key difference. we can mistake validation for what is really trying to make the other person and their problem go away, which is, ultimately, invalidating.

that is why, when learning and practicing these skills, it can be easier to think in terms of "dont be invalidating", rather than "validate". if you are avoiding the former, then chances are, you are doing the latter. active listening and mirroring are validating.

the truth is, in my life, and dealings with others, i very rarely ever think to myself to consciously "validate" someone, at least if "validate" means "find magic words". i go on twitter, and i see a billion memes telling me i am beautiful, i matter, and my existence (my existence!) is "valid". those memes have never met me, are directed at everyone, and for all they know, im a horrible person  

so i think that generally speaking, if you are treating someone like the adult that they are, and not actively invalidating them, then you probably are validating them. words, and how you use them, absolutely have a huge role in that, its just that it can be a little bit misleading and give us the impression that there are magic words to soothe our difficult partners.

one of the last times i can remember someone validating me; i was seeing a speech therapist, and i was telling her about some of the previous horror stories (with other providers) that led to me seeing her. she looked at me and told me "im really sorry that happened to you". it kind of took me by surprise. in the moment, i was just kind of laughing off my experience, but here was this person taking it seriously, and with sympathy. she repeated herself, that she was sorry all of that happened to me. it was a small gesture, but in that moment, i felt seen, i felt heard, i felt safe, and i felt connected. i felt "this person gets it, this is where i need to be". that is validation in a nutshell. that is the kind of environment you want to build in your relationship; not just something to reach for in crisis, but the lifestyle, so to speak, of your relationship.

so, how have your recent efforts gone? if you want to share how you approached it and how it went, we can walk you through it!

[LittleRedBarn]

I think curiosity really helps with getting into a mindset for validation. Let's be honest - do we REALLY understand what is going on in our BPD loved ones' heads? They don't think like us, they don't experience the world in the same way that we do, so unless we work at it, we are automatically going to be invalidating. Their thought processes and behaviors generally don't make a lot of sense to us, even when they are not dysregulated. And when they are dysregulated, they make no sense at all. So starting from a position of genuine, loving curiosity, really trying to understand, is key. Asking open questions starting with words like who, what, why, where, when; not jumping to conclusions based on our own experiences; really listening and applying what we already know about this person's life experiences to the current conversation - all of this is where validation starts.

And of course this is really, really hard, if not impossible, when someone is yelling at you, so we need to start small, start with the times when everything is calm. Practice when it is easy, so that it becomes automatic when times get hard.

[50andwastedlife]

Thank you once removed for your wise and thoughtful response. I can see how invalidating I have been - deliberately at times, and unintentionally at others. "Not invalidating" is a good way of looking at it. I try that - with silence, and a sympathetic look,  or a hug, and it is true, it is better than speaking either honestly or with inauthentic agreement.

I suppose what I struggle with is the fact that in order not to invalidate my dBPDh, I have to allow myself to be invalidated. His image of how/who he wants me to be is more important to him than who I am, and in order for him not to feel invalidated I have to act that image. I learnt very early in the relationship that honesty was disastrous - and should have seen a red flag, but it was so familiar from my FOO! But it is very lonely and soul-destroying.

[50andwastedlife]

I think curiosity really helps with getting into a mindset for validation. Let's be honest - do we REALLY understand what is going on in our BPD loved ones' heads? They don't think like us, they don't experience the world in the same way that we do, so unless we work at it, we are automatically going to be invalidating. Their thought processes and behaviors generally don't make a lot of sense to us, even when they are not dysregulated. And when they are dysregulated, they make no sense at all. So starting from a position of genuine, loving curiosity, really trying to understand, is key. Asking open questions starting with words like who, what, why, where, when; not jumping to conclusions based on our own experiences; really listening and applying what we already know about this person's life experiences to the current conversation - all of this is where validation starts.

I think my problem is that I do  understand what is going on in his head, but he doesn't want me to. He wants it to be true that I committed an act of absolute betrayal - that anyone would feel - by getting a job; rather than that his childhood experiences make him feel abandonment as a physical illness. He hates my understanding and wants me to enter his delusion. So it goes back to being pretence.

But thank you for reading and responding.

[LittleRedBarn]

I started a thread a while ago with some examples of validation working with my BPDh. I'll try and post a link below, hope it works! I think it might be helpful.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358502.msg13215097#msg13215097

[50andwastedlife]

Thank you, Little Red Barn, I really appreciate this. I can see that my impulse to deny or reassure is essentially invalidating. I found your thread really interesting as that is exactly the kind of reaction my husband would have to a comparable situation, and I have always taken the role of calming, reassuring..."rescuing" I guess. And I can see that it is counter productive.

Here is an example of the sort of monologue I have several times a day at the moment. I'm at home, working so my husband doesn't have to be on his own, but he hates me working. We have a cup of tea and he says:

"This is what it's like - you have some idea of the silence - literally no one calls round or phones, it's just me on my own for 9 hours every day, while you're in the office with your new friends, I've been forced back to alcohol...the only thing that makes it bearable is the porn, I'm in such a dark place and you don't care at all, you're so selfish, you show no compassion, if you cared at all you would have done something about it but I've been in pain for 2 years non stop and you caused it. How can you watch your husband literally dying in front of your eyes and do nothing about it? The marriage is over and you ended it. You became part of someone else's team and I'm not part of it, I'm stuck here on my own, like a prisoner."

It goes on and on, but always the same, since I started work. I used to try and argue and defend, and now I'm just silent mostly. I can't think of any way of validating - but I can see that reflecting his world view back to him would be validating. It's quite hard though. Like a dementia patient repeating the same thing over and over. And the carer having to agree that the war has gone on a long time hasn't it.

But that's not the attitude either, I realise. Sometimes I think I am the horrible person he accuses me of being!!!

[Lifehasitsups]

That is a very difficult conversation. Thanks for posting this and I can sympathize. You are not that person but we all feel those kinds of doubts.

[kells76]

Typically, what does he do after the two of you finish tea and you go back to work?

Does he follow you?

I'm wondering, if he doesn't usually escalate/follow, if there's a way for you to kind of accept that -- this is how he is. Due to BPD, he may struggle to accurately describe his high-intensity emotions, so this may remain a "typical" way that he talks about his feelings.

It is likely that he is truly in pain inside. Due to BPD, he may be extra sensitive to that and experience it like a third degree burn, and also due to BPD, he may be impaired when it comes to accurate description and communication of that feeling. So, instead of him saying "I'm in a lot of pain inside today, and it's excruciating, and I think it's because I struggle to be alone and instead of missing you at a 3/10 when you're at work, I experience that as an 11/10 and don't have a lot of skills to handle that"... he sort of "talks around" it with blame, fingerpointing, hyperbole, ranting, misattribution of causality, etc.

Obviously, don't validate the invalid. Fortunately, validation doesn't require agreement with "the facts" or his assertions. You don't actually have to agree "yes dear, I keep you prisoner here, you are correct".

True validation isn't about "managing" him like a dementia patient -- "I have to keep him calm at all costs".

It's about you touching the real feelings behind his inaccurate words. He wants to be heard (everybody does) and is pretty impaired in trying to get that need met, and also might not have much insight into how he's impairing himself.

Behind his monologue, I wonder if these are some core feelings:

"I feel trapped, lonely, and in pain."

Those are valid validation targets.

Next time he monologues (I'm guessing he goes off on similar subject matter -- like he returns to the same grievances?), I wonder how it'd go to say something brief (though it's important that it's something you'd really say, and that you really mean it, not just a "checklist" phrase):

"You're in a lot of pain... you feel trapped"

or

"Wow... that must be overwhelming"

or

"That would be incredibly lonely to feel like I don't care"

?

He may keep going after that, and at that point (as long as he isn't getting dangerous like trying to break in the door to your home office, etc), I wonder if a BIFF phrase could work for you:

"I want to be at my best to keep hearing you... how about we keep talking about this over brunch tomorrow at 10am"

or

"I'll be back in the kitchen at 6pm tonight... I'll be ready to listen more then"

...

I think you're on the right track that sometimes the validation target in a monologue is small. But -- it's still there and it's going to be feelings (not perspectives, beliefs, assertions, facts, "facts", etc). You can validate silently through body language, or through brief comments -- you don't have to go on a whole "validation monologue" yourself 

Following up the validation moment with boundaries (rules for yourself) about when you're available again may be worth exploring.

[once removed]

"This is what it's like - you have some idea of the silence - literally no one calls round or phones, it's just me on my own for 9 hours every day, while you're in the office with your new friends, I've been forced back to alcohol...the only thing that makes it bearable is the porn, I'm in such a dark place and you don't care at all, you're so selfish, you show no compassion, if you cared at all you would have done something about it but I've been in pain for 2 years non stop and you caused it. How can you watch your husband literally dying in front of your eyes and do nothing about it? The marriage is over and you ended it. You became part of someone else's team and I'm not part of it, I'm stuck here on my own, like a prisoner."

the back and forth really helps.

it sounds like he is doing two things.

1. venting his pain - venting, most of the time, is relieving. and it helps to have someone to pay attention and actively listen (validate) when we do. but have you ever had a time where venting made you feel worse? like you couldnt stop going, that you got more riled up/angry? thats something to watch for.

he starts off simple enough. what hes communicating sounds like hes lonely. thats a basic, common element of the human experience that is perfectly valid, and that you can empathize with.

from there, its harder; he gets more extreme in what hes expressing. the loneliness is happening to him, caused by others. its driving him to drink and porn.

2. from there, he escalates. its the fault of you, the listener. he is expecting you to fix his pain (he says you caused it and refuse to fix it), and he resents you and, likely himself for it in the moment.

if im on the other end of that, im not thinking "how can i validate that". you cant. you shouldnt. and for the most part, responding to any of those targets specifically, is going down a rabbit hole.

im thinking "what part of this is valid? what, when i sift through the extreme parts, is he really saying and communicating?".

1. that hes lonely
2. that hes in pain

if you are reaching for validation in your tool belt, loneliness is making a lot of the world miserable right now; theyre calling it an epidemic. as we get older, friendships are harder to maintain. it sucks. his relationships have probably gone by the wayside, and he resents and/or is hurt by that.

any part of that validates his experience.

of course, there are things he can do about it, but i suspect he wouldnt be open to suggestions (and usually, when someone is just venting, they arent), so i probably wouldnt go down that road, but you know, if you see an opening, a way to help, or more specifically, connect.

remember: people with bpd usually do communicate their needs, but in dysfunctional ("i hate you, dont leave me") ways, or extremes ("i want love or reassurance="you never do this or that"). you just have to learn to sift and separate that part from the extreme stuff surrounding it. thats the valid.

[LittleRedBarn]

Hi 50andwastedlife

The monologue that you have shared here breaks my heart. I am so, so sorry that you are going through this. You are not selfish, and you are not the horrible person he accuses you of being. You are caring and compassionate and a wonderful, loving human being. I know this from the way you have written your posts.

Are you in therapy yourself? Do you have close friends or family that you can share this information with?


It's important to remember that the bottom line is that you cannot change your husband - only he can do that. All you can do is change your response to his behavior. I listened to precisely this monologue for ten years and at the end of that time, I believed that all the negative things my BPD husband said about me were true. I consider myself a strong person, but the constant drip, drip, drip of negativity about me ate away at my soul until I had a mental health breakdown of my own, did something illegal and am now facing a felony charge. I have been told by three different psychologists that this type of constant blame "meets the criteria for verbal and emotional abuse."

I don't believe we should listen to this kind of blame and negativity, and I no longer listen to it from my husband. I literally put my hand up in a stop sign and say that I'm not prepared to listen to it any more. I feel strongly about this as a result of my experience. It is a sign of emotion dysregulation, and it is my husband's responsibility to self-regulate before coming to me with his problems. I can say this now that he has been diagnosed with BPD and has had eighteen months of DBT therapy, where he has learned emotion regulation skills, but I could not have said it before.

 I have also spent the past eighteen months educating myself and changing my behavior towards him in a big way. Some of the resources that have helped me are:

'Stop Caretaking the Borderline' by Margalis Fjelstad
and
'The High-conflict Couple' by Alan Fruzzetti

but perhaps the most helpful of all was DBT Family Skills Training. DBT is not just for people with BPD, family members can benefit hugely from learning DBT skills themselves, even if their BPD family member refuses to take part.

There is also a wealth of material here on this site.

Finally, you say that your husband has been in therapy for 40 years. Is he diagnosed with BPD? What kind of therapy has he had? The length of time makes me think that it might have been a more traditional type of psychoanalysis, which is less focused on skills and more on uncovering trauma. BPD can respond well to specific therapies, such as DBT and mentalization, that give sufferers tools that they can use to help with interpersonal relations and emotion dysregulation.

Also, have you had couples counseling and, if not, would he consider this? A DBT couples counseling course based on Alan Fruzetti's book has helped my relationship get to a much better place.

[LittleRedBarn]

I'm at home, working so my husband doesn't have to be on his own

Also, this stood out for me. Can you fill in some background here about why you decided to stay home all day working? Did you go out to work before? Or is this the first time you have had a job for a while, and you decided to work from home because he couldn't tolerate being alone all day?

[50andwastedlife]

I just want to say THANK YOU to everyone who has replied. I feel properly heard - and I realise how incredibly rare that is. It has made me feel quite tearful and wobbly, so I won't try and reply properly now. But - thank you.

[50andwastedlife]

Typically, what does he do after the two of you finish tea and you go back to work?

Does he follow you?

I'm wondering, if he doesn't usually escalate/follow, if there's a way for you to kind of accept that -- this is how he is. Due to BPD, he may struggle to accurately describe his high-intensity emotions, so this may remain a "typical" way that he talks about his feelings.

It is definitely typical. He usually spends about an hour each morning expressing his pain in that sort of language. He has no idea it is so long; but is very triggered if I try to curtail it. This has been the case for a long time, but it is definitely much worse at the moment - many times a day.

It is likely that he is truly in pain inside. Due to BPD, he may be extra sensitive to that and experience it like a third degree burn, and also due to BPD, he may be impaired when it comes to accurate description and communication of that feeling. So, instead of him saying "I'm in a lot of pain inside today, and it's excruciating, and I think it's because I struggle to be alone and instead of missing you at a 3/10 when you're at work, I experience that as an 11/10 and don't have a lot of skills to handle that"... he sort of "talks around" it with blame, fingerpointing, hyperbole, ranting, misattribution of causality, etc.

He is in so much pain. I do understand that. Talking about therapy yesterday, he said "nothing has ever touched the darkness. Only you, when we were happy." Being on his own is viscerally painful for him, like a terrible phobia, unimaginably painful. But he finds it humiliating, which he is also massively sensitive to, so he is always trying to square the impossible - feel that anyone would feel the same as him, if they were in his position.

Behind his monologue, I wonder if these are some core feelings:

"I feel trapped, lonely, and in pain."

That is 100% acccurate.

I will try to connect with that, and respond to that. At the moment, I just get dragged in every time and hate myself for engaging, time after time, as if there will be a different outcome.

I'm not sure I've been successful with the excerpt thing. Forgive me if this is alphabetti soup...

[50andwastedlife]

im thinking "what part of this is valid? what, when i sift through the extreme parts, is he really saying and communicating?".

1. that hes lonely
2. that hes in pain

if you are reaching for validation in your tool belt, loneliness is making a lot of the world miserable right now; theyre calling it an epidemic. as we get older, friendships are harder to maintain. it sucks. his relationships have probably gone by the wayside, and he resents and/or is hurt by that.

any part of that validates his experience.

That is so true. I can so sympathise with those feelings and recognise them. It's easy to validate. But somehow it always turns into blame. And I react badly to that. And we go round and round. Expressing sympathy and somehow stopping the venting right there would be the ideal goal!

Thank you for your thoughts.

[50andwastedlife]

Hi 50andwastedlife

The monologue that you have shared here breaks my heart. I am so, so sorry that you are going through this. You are not selfish, and you are not the horrible person he accuses you of being. You are caring and compassionate and a wonderful, loving human being. I know this from the way you have written your posts.

Thank you LRB - reading that made me want to cry. I'll reply more fully later, but I appreciate you saying that.

[kells76]

I wonder if there's a way for you to "step in" with validation like you're doing here:

That is so true. I can so sympathise with those feelings and recognise them. It's easy to validate.

and then excuse yourself/"step out" of the interaction at or before it turns to blame:

But somehow it always turns into blame. And I react badly to that. And we go round and round.

It seems like you realize that the blame ---> reaction ---> circular argument cycle isn't good for either of you. He probably gets frustrated and escalates, you may feel unfairly targeted, and both of you leave without a "win".

Do you think you might be able to recognize the moments when the conversation either resolves or pivots: i.e., he expresses extreme loneliness and pain, you are able to validate how crushing that would feel, and then you get a read on if he's feeling heard vs winding up for more? if after you share "babe... that sounds devastating", he replies with something like "it IS!", then he might be feeling heard, but if he replies with something like "and you're the one devastating me" then he's winding up for more.

In those moments, you're "allowed" to follow validation with personal boundaries -- maybe it could help to start reframing moments when he starts blaming you less as invitations to defend yourself and get in the circular argument, and more as neutral information that it's time for you to choose a different tool:

"Well, I did my best to be with him in his pain, and today is a day where he was not able to accept my care, and is instead blaming me. I guess that's a sign that it's time for us to spend a little time separately before we come back together"

where the blame stops triggering your urge to argue, because instead you frame the blaming as information: when he starts to blame, it signals he's not in a regulated space, so you take it as a cue that continued in-person engagement won't help either of you, and you can use the "personal boundaries" tool to take a break:

"honey, I'm going to take a shower... when I'm done in 30 minutes, if you want to keep chatting, let me know what time works for you" (or something that you would really say)

Expressing sympathy and somehow stopping the venting right there would be the ideal goal!

What you don't have control over is if he vents...

what you do have control over is if you choose to listen to it.

He may have a life where he likes to vent a lot, and that works for him.  You may have a life where it does not work for you to hear a lot of venting. You both get to have your preferred lives when you decline to stick around to listen. He can keep venting as much as he wants, and you get a break.

He might vent less as he "learns" that you won't be the audience... or he might not. It's hard to say. People do change in response to changes in others, but it's no guarantee (it's not like we have a lever of power over others through our actions! But it is natural and human to change when those around us do).

Either way, no matter what he chooses to do, you can empathize with his deep feelings of pain and loneliness, and then decide what you're up for after that.

Hope some of that is helpful food for thought...

[50andwastedlife]

Are you in therapy yourself? Do you have close friends or family that you can share this information with?

I have had quite alot of therapy to cope with depression, but not for a long time, and I didn't manage to identify codependence until I discovered this site. It's tricky to share with friends/family because my H finds the idea humiliating - and I suppose I do too. I have seen looks of pity cross people's faces when he is very publicly disregulated and I try to cover it up for both of our sakes, which I know is unhelpful.

It's important to remember that the bottom line is that you cannot change your husband - only he can do that. All you can do is change your response to his behavior. I listened to precisely this monologue for ten years and at the end of that time, I believed that all the negative things my BPD husband said about me were true. I consider myself a strong person, but the constant drip, drip, drip of negativity about me ate away at my soul until I had a mental health breakdown of my own, did something illegal and am now facing a felony charge. I have been told by three different psychologists that this type of constant blame "meets the criteria for verbal and emotional abuse."

I'm so sorry to read this and I very much sympathise. It is so corrosive to the soul; and it is abusive, I think, though I find it hard to identify as a victim of abuse (not uncommon, I know.) (Especially as my H identifies so strongly as a victim and me as his abuser/rescuer.)

'Stop Caretaking the Borderline' by Margalis Fjelstad
and
'The High-conflict Couple' by Alan Fruzzetti

I have been realising how much I need to read both of these!!

Finally, you say that your husband has been in therapy for 40 years. Is he diagnosed with BPD? What kind of therapy has he had? The length of time makes me think that it might have been a more traditional type of psychoanalysis, which is less focused on skills and more on uncovering trauma. BPD can respond well to specific therapies, such as DBT and mentalization, that give sufferers tools that they can use to help with interpersonal relations and emotion dysregulation.

I think that back in the early 1980s he had very traditional psychoanalysis - which saved his life - and which enabled him to recognise that he had a problem. He saw various therapists after that, and was diagnosed with BPD 20 years ago. He has had alot of treatment since, on the NHS, alot of CAT group therapy and 18 months with the psychological lead in BPD for the county. DBT doesn't seem readily available in this country.

Also, have you had couples counseling and, if not, would he consider this? A DBT couples counseling course based on Alan Fruzetti's book has helped my relationship get to a much better place.

We are seeing a couples counsellor in a few weeks - not DBT based, as we live in a small village in rural England, so have to take what is available! But hopefully it will help stabilise things.










[/quote]

[LittleRedBarn]

Hi 50andwastedlife

I can totally relate to what you are going through here.

It's tricky to share with friends/family because my H finds the idea humiliating - and I suppose I do too.

This was exactly how I felt before my dBPD husband and I hit rock bottom around 18 months ago. It meant that I had become very isolated from my friends and family, because I was keeping a big part of my life hidden from them. If we are choosing to stay in a relationship with someone with BPD, it is essential that we have someone we can 'unload' onto, someone who can help us keep our feet on the ground and give us a reality check now and then. This site is great for that, but we need real-life people too, even if it's just a therapist, but ideally at least one or two close friends or family members that we can really confide in.

I've found that when I've had the courage to open up to the good people in my life, they have been completely non-judgemental and incredibly supportive. I've had some bad reactions too, but it has shown me who my real friends are, and helped me to sort out who I want to keep in my life, and who I want to let go.

I find it hard to identify as a victim of abuse (not uncommon, I know.) (Especially as my H identifies so strongly as a victim and me as his abuser/rescuer.)

I felt exactly this way too, and the dynamic you describe mirrors my marriage perfectly. It has taken me eighteen months to really admit to myself that I have been the victim of abuse. It was only when three different psychiatrists, two lawyers, a good friend and my two adult sons all used the word 'abuse' to me that I started to admit to myself that it was true. And until we acknowledge the truth, there is very little we can do to change things.

DBT doesn't seem readily available in this country.

We are seeing a couples counsellor in a few weeks - not DBT based, as we live in a small village in rural England, so have to take what is available!

I'm from England myself, so I'm familiar with the limitations of the NHS. I also count myself very fortunate to have been living in the US when my husband was hospitalized. It turns out we were living near one of the top hospitals in the world for BPD treatment, and he has responded very well to the program they put him on.

I like DBT because it's a 'no blame' form of therapy, and my husband is allergic to any suggestion that he might be at fault for anything. He is also very resistant to his diagnosis and also to the idea that he needs therapy at all. "I'm not the one with the problem - YOU are!" DBT offers 'Family Skills Training' to help family members cope with living with loved ones with BPD, so I was able to persuade him to engage by saying that it was me that needed it, and that he was helping me out by attending the training with me.

We did the training courses online, so you could probably access them from the UK, if you can navigate the time difference. I'll post a link below to the one we used, but I'm sure there are others. NEABPD also offers free Family Skills Training, but that would be just for you, not your husband. I'd definitely recommend it though.

https://www.triangleareadbt.com/fst
https://www.triangleareadbt.com/dbtcouples
https://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.org/family-connections/

Hope this helps! And, by the way, your life is not wasted. You have expressed unlimited love and compassion for your husband, and if you have done that for him I just know that you are doing it for everyone else in your life. You are sweet, generous and compassionate, and your life has been full of meaning from the start.

Go gently,
LRB

[50andwastedlife]

Thank you Kells76, that is really useful.

In those moments, you're "allowed" to follow validation with personal boundaries

I realise how bad I am with boundaries, reading that. I suppose that's what got me into this situation..!

where the blame stops triggering your urge to argue, because instead you frame the blaming as information: when he starts to blame, it signals he's not in a regulated space, so you take it as a cue that continued in-person engagement won't help either of you

That makes so much sense! Thank you!!

what you do have control over is if you choose to listen to it.

Feeling like I have control/choice is a hard one to get back.

Thank you again. Really thoughtful.

[50andwastedlife]

He may have a life where he likes to vent a lot, and that works for him. 

I have been thinking about this and the venting is like a form of OCD (forgive me for misusing, not intending to insult OCD sufferers) in that he is compelled to say the same things over and over and indulging in that doesn't work for him. I used to think it was important to him to feel heard, and would just listen, but now I wonder if it's just been reinforcing his negative feelings, and it would be better not to be that audience... Thank you for making me think about it!

[kells76]

I have been thinking about this and the venting is like a form of OCD (forgive me for misusing, not intending to insult OCD sufferers) in that he is compelled to say the same things over and over and indulging in that doesn't work for him. I used to think it was important to him to feel heard, and would just listen, but now I wonder if it's just been reinforcing his negative feelings, and it would be better not to be that audience... Thank you for making me think about it!

That's an interesting thought, like maybe you were accidentally reinforcing to him "venting gets you attention from me".

I wonder how it would go to find a way, like you said, not to be that audience to him (not to accidentally reinforce that venting gets a LOT of listening), and instead to provide attention and listening for things he says or does that you do appreciate?

Hard to know how it'd go, though it could be worth a try?

[50andwastedlife]

Hi 50andwastedlife

I can totally relate to what you are going through here.
This was exactly how I felt before my dBPD husband and I hit rock bottom around 18 months ago. It meant that I had become very isolated from my friends and family, because I was keeping a big part of my life hidden from them. If we are choosing to stay in a relationship with someone with BPD, it is essential that we have someone we can 'unload' onto, someone who can help us keep our feet on the ground and give us a reality check now and then. This site is great for that, but we need real-life people too, even if it's just a therapist, but ideally at least one or two close friends or family members that we can really confide in.

I've found that when I've had the courage to open up to the good people in my life, they have been completely non-judgemental and incredibly supportive. I've had some bad reactions too, but it has shown me who my real friends are, and helped me to sort out who I want to keep in my life, and who I want to let go.

I felt exactly this way too, and the dynamic you describe mirrors my marriage perfectly. It has taken me eighteen months to really admit to myself that I have been the victim of abuse. It was only when three different psychiatrists, two lawyers, a good friend and my two adult sons all used the word 'abuse' to me that I started to admit to myself that it was true. And until we acknowledge the truth, there is very little we can do to change things.

I'm from England myself, so I'm familiar with the limitations of the NHS. I also count myself very fortunate to have been living in the US when my husband was hospitalized. It turns out we were living near one of the top hospitals in the world for BPD treatment, and he has responded very well to the program they put him on.

I like DBT because it's a 'no blame' form of therapy, and my husband is allergic to any suggestion that he might be at fault for anything. He is also very resistant to his diagnosis and also to the idea that he needs therapy at all. "I'm not the one with the problem - YOU are!" DBT offers 'Family Skills Training' to help family members cope with living with loved ones with BPD, so I was able to persuade him to engage by saying that it was me that needed it, and that he was helping me out by attending the training with me.

We did the training courses online, so you could probably access them from the UK, if you can navigate the time difference. I'll post a link below to the one we used, but I'm sure there are others. NEABPD also offers free Family Skills Training, but that would be just for you, not your husband. I'd definitely recommend it though.

https://www.triangleareadbt.com/fst
https://www.triangleareadbt.com/dbtcouples
https://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.org/family-connections/

Hope this helps! And, by the way, your life is not wasted. You have expressed unlimited love and compassion for your husband, and if you have done that for him I just know that you are doing it for everyone else in your life. You are sweet, generous and compassionate, and your life has been full of meaning from the start.

Go gently,
LRB

Thank you LRB, for all your kind words and for being so understanding. Shortly after posting this, I saw a friend who had seen my H being very dysregulated with me, in a way he would usually try to contain in public, and she expressed concern for me and use the word "abusive" spontaneously. It is hard to admit it to oneself, especially when there is no physical aspect. But I was able to talk to her a bit, albeit briefly.

And also, when the other party genuinely feels like the victim of abuse from oneself. It's really, really hard to maintain a perspective on what is real.

My H is also very resistant to his diagnosis and any suggestion of it is very triggering to him. Like it makes it "his fault" rather than mine. Trying to let go of my desire that he own his BPD and investigates it...works on it and recognises that it's a pattern common to other people...that is my challenge! But I haven't dared buy "Caretaking the Borderline" as if he saw it in the Amazon history or whatever, he would be very triggered. Perhaps I can ask said friend to buy it for me!

Thank you for the links, too. I shall investigate those. And we have Couples counselling starting next week, so will try to make it useful.

Again, thank you for reading and responding, and I'm glad things are improving for you; it gives me hope!

[LittleRedBarn]

Trying to let go of my desire that he own his BPD and investigates it...works on it and recognises that it's a pattern common to other people...that is my challenge!

This is such a common feeling for people who have loved ones with BPD! Some of it is self-serving - 'If only they would admit they have a problem they might be able to start making changes and my life would get easier' but a lot of it is from genuine love and concern.

The best thing we can do is let go of trying to change THEM and change ourselves. We need to see that our caretaking behavior has inadvertently reinforced their maladaptive coping strategies. With the very best of intentions, we have consistently been making them worse, not better. We need to make the changes in ourselves and then see where that leads the relationship. Given that we have probably spent years, if not decades, in this dysfunctional pattern, there is no way of knowing whether the relationship will even survive this change. If it does, great. And if it doesn't, we will be in a better place to deal with the fall-out.

But I haven't dared buy "Caretaking the Borderline" as if he saw it in the Amazon history or whatever, he would be very triggered. Perhaps I can ask said friend to buy it for me!

Excellent idea! It would have the double benefit of allowing you to read the book, while alerting your friend to the fact that you need support.

One of the things I have had to let go of is the idea that conventional wisdom about relationships doesn't automatically apply in a BPD relationship. So I've always believed that it is wrong for the partners to have secrets from one another. I can now see that is essential that I keep secrets from my dBPDh. Buying books about his condition, posting on this website, talking to friends and my adult children about my struggles - all of this is done in secret. It saddens me, but I can't see any other way.