Divorce filing today

[ForeverDad]

In my area courts ordered parenting classes at the start of the divorce.  My ex was posing as the victim and so refused to attend the same class with me.  Then next it ordered us to attempt mediation there too.  The mediator had to assure her that he had the same status as an officer of the court or else she would have refused to be there.  (Mediation failed, as is typical so early in the case, the ex was too entitled to sincerely negotiate.)  She did insist that I remain behind while she departed, again posing as being afraid of me.  The insightful mediator quietly remarked to the air, "This woman has issues."

[kells76]

I haven't taken any parenting class.  I have two older kids from a previous marriage and they are doing well.  I'm civil with their Mom and we abide by the custody agreement without much drama.

Right -- the purpose isn't necessarily "there must be something faulty about your parenting, you're the bad parent if you take a parenting class". It's more about demonstrating to the legal system that you are going above and beyond in your commitment to being the best possible parent for your child(ren). It's also about minimizing targets -- it's a harder hill to climb for her to say "he just doesn't know enough to parent an infant solo, so the baby should be with me 99.999999% of the time" when you have a third party professional documenting that Mr. Captain5024 attended 12/12 infant parenting classes and passed the final quiz. Of course, there's always new stuff to learn -- the class we went to had very helpful book recommendations -- so keep an open mind and see about doing that to add to how you present yourself to your lawyer, her lawyer, and the judge.

If you truly don't have time right now, then it is what it is -- though like FD said, parenting classes will happen for both of you at some point and likely thru the court system, it's very boilerplate. In our county they made sure that separating parents did not attend the same class.

She is ending her episode today and being a bit more cooperative.

We do have a nursery but the baby still sleeps with her.  I don't want to create disagreement or arguments when it isn't absolutely needed at this point in time.

What is she being cooperative about?

Are you able to leverage this cooperation in any way that benefits your time with/care of the baby?

[ForeverDad]

Right -- the purpose isn't necessarily "there must be something faulty about your parenting, you're the bad parent if you take a parenting class".

Parenting classes are a generic and standard early step in the divorce process for both parents.

On the other hand, beware of pressure to get you to submit to "Anger Management".  That may have legal consequences for your future parenting and you would definitely need specific legal advice before crossing that bridge.

[captain5024]

Doing some research I can not find any parenting class in my area.  There is an online course for the State of NJ online, but there is no test at the end. 

I do know a divorced friend that got involved in the "Anger Management" sideshow.  Yes, that seems best to be avoided.  Luckily I am very calm and very careful with my spouse.

The last couple days I've been spending more than enough time with our baby daughter.  My wife's moods and mouth change quickly, nothing is permanent. 

[ForeverDad]

You can call your local Domestic court and they surely would tell you about parenting classes and whether they are expected before divorce filing or later once the court starts the process.  I did parenting classes after separation but while we did have an initial temp order regarding temp custody and temp parenting schedule I hadn't filed for actual divorce yet, so you may be putting this step out of the usual order?

If you haven't yet interviewed and selected a divorce attorney, then do so very privately and confidentially to minimize triggering your spouse prematurely.  You do NOT have to disclose to your spouse of a lawyer search.  You have a right to privacy and confidentiality in adult matters.

[captain5024]

I have a lawyer.  She has already been served.  We can cohabitate and coparent in the same house for now, with different bedrooms.

My wife is 85% of the time the best wife/Mom in the world.  15% of the time she is a delusional, destructive terror.  Her episodes happen like clockwork about every 8 weeks.

The therapists and lawyers are somewhat stumped.  Why she doesn't get the help (since she isn't like this all the time, she isn't an addict, chronic depressive, etc.).  My limit is she needs to fix the destructiveness that comes with the dysregulation episodes (I can handle the dysregulation), I can't handle the destructiveness.  She refuses to do it, with at least some enabling from me in the past.  The professionals think her issue is controllable enough where the marriage can be saved, and they all understand why I want out for those that have witnessed it.

It's the main reason I kept going back...

[ForeverDad]

Many professionals, if not most, are trained to look on the bright side.  And that does make sense, we want positivity in our experts.  However they also need to be pragmatic when faced with difficult facts.  At some point you conclude, "I've tried enough, now it's time to deal with the reality."

One approach that doesn't work in our cases is the Step Up plans where adequate behavior rewards with more time, yet doesn't factor in the need for Step Down when behavior reverts to the mean or prior patterns.  To undo the Up Only approach, both are needed so when it fails, you don't have to wait months for a court date to address the problem.

[captain5024]

Many professionals, if not most, are trained to look on the bright side.  And that does make sense, we want positivity in our experts.  However they also need to be pragmatic when faced with difficult facts.  At some point you conclude, "I've tried enough, now it's time to deal with the reality."

One approach that doesn't work in our cases is the Step Up plans where adequate behavior rewards with more time, yet doesn't factor in the need for Step Down when behavior reverts to the mean or prior patterns.  To undo the Up Only approach, both are needed so when it fails, you don't have to wait months for a court date to address the problem.

Can you please rephrase your second paragraph regarding Step Up and Step Down?   I don't understand. 

[ForeverDad]

What I meant is that in some instances the court wants parenting time increased for one spouse but since there are concerns (addictions, drinking, drugs, poor behavior, etc) then it sets milestones to be met first before the next increase.

That's fine, but what if at some point the parent relapses?  What then?  In my experience, the court doesn't anticipate relapses.  So unless there is a parenting coordinator or other professional assigned to monitor progress vs relapses then the more normal parent typically would have to file to go back to court and wait, perhaps even months, to get the matter addressed.

This may be one of my minor personal pet peeves, but it could be a gotcha for those assuming everything will go according to the court's order.  Unfortunately, the failure rate with many pwBPD is not zero.

[captain5024]

My wife said she wanted to reconcile and go to therapy.   I decided to entertain this request.   The joint therapy we went to was not productive, but she agreed to go individually.   Ok, fine.

I told my lawyer I wasn’t comfortable to cancel the divorce as we’ve been down this road before.   He agreed, and said eventually after months of no-productivity the divorce would be thrown out.  But, we both assumed we would never get there.

It took about 7 hours after I told my wife the divorce would sit, stagnant while she went to therapy and we will hope for the best.  She got so angry, it amazes me to this day how fast she can change.  She refuses to go to therapy.   Glad I didn’t have my hopes up.  I’ve been down that road before.

I strongly recommend she go to therapy tomorrow.   She won’t.  I’m happy to report the divorce continues and I behaved very well with her.   No anger, judgment, criticism.   I don’t invalidate and use SET and validate when possible.

It’s so empty and sad.   I worked on my cluster-B issues, but I knew I was different and wanted to get better.   She seems to have zero awareness.

[captain5024]

One of my struggling thoughts I often think about why some people have awareness and seek meaningful mental help and change, while many others do not.  Any ideas?  Perhaps there are a wide range of reasons.

I've been seeing a male psychologist for my own benefit.  I've found I tend to get more help from male mental health professionals.  They have more empathy with the male plight, in addition their approach seems to be less B.S., in an industry which often seems overly feminine and ineffective.I

With that said, I have also recently seen our previous marital therapist, a woman.  She more clearly allows me to see and have empathy towards my soon to be ex-wife, identifying how the presenting behavior is completely different than what's going on inside of her, underneath the defense mechanisms and distorted thoughts.  That's helpful for me to develop patience and continue on the path of using SET, mirroring, labeling, not using "I" statements.  I need help with those things.

Sometimes these strategies do seem to help my wife.  She still talks and responds with a bunch of disordered, accusatory, unpleasant malarky, however it doesn't pass the line of out-of-control nuclear destruction. 

My line is crossed regarding her behavior.  Her emotions and disordered thinking are certainly not ideal, but that's her and she doesn't seem to think she needs help with that. 

I am working on trying to be as a positive influence as I can be around her, while holding my values and proceeding with the divorce.  It's a bit of a tight rope walk, but I do see with progress it becomes slightly easier with time.  Slightly.

[captain5024]

My BPD spouse is preventing me from spending adequate time with our infant baby, allowing the baby to spend time with her half sisters, etc.

I have advised my lawyer of this.

What are some of my legal options, etc.?

[ForeverDad]

I told my lawyer I wasn’t comfortable to cancel the divorce as we’ve been down this road before.

Many here would tell you that when they canceled their divorce - the first time - it wasn't long before they were refiling.  Or, worse, the spouse was better prepared and this time the stbEx was in a better legal position.

Sadly, our small glimmer of hope to work things out can be manipulated into delays that resulted in us and our goals being sabotaged.  I'm not saying this is the case here, but delays or withdrawing a filing and later restarting it can end up with you worse off.

My BPD spouse is preventing me from spending adequate time with our infant baby, allowing the baby to spend time with her half sisters, etc.

Once you have the first hearing for divorce you can expect a temp order that specifies the details of temp custody as well as a temp parenting schedule.  Only then will you have firm parenting time.  So the longer you put the case on hold, the longer you both share technically equal but unspecified parenting authority.  You can ask but she can refuse, just as she can ask but you can refuse.  It's essentially a stalemate until The Real Authority (court) issues a temp court order.

While a baby is small, a mother's influence on court orders can be stronger than a father's influence.

Is the baby being breastfed?  While that shouldn't be a huge issue in court, she may try to make it seem as though she can't be separated.  Yet courts handle this claim all the time and generally try to make it a non-issue.  Just as working mothers have learned to do when they go off to work, their breast milk can be expressed and frozen while they are apart.  It's a simple matter to pass milk along at the same time the infant is exchanged.

Last I looked, my local court has stated (but not obligatory) schedules for three age groups.  Nothing is a given but these are the examples in print.

• 0 to 3 years ... frequent exchanges, 2 or 3 per week
• 4 to 10-12 years ... often equal time such as a 2-2-3 schedule*
• teen years ... equal time may remain or one parent becomes the home base

* 2-2-3 schedule is Mon-Tue overnights for one parent, Wed-Thu overnights for the other parent and the parents alternate weekends with Fri-Sat-Sun overnights.

Be aware that the parent with more time scheduled is considered the Residential parent or Primary parent and typically the one granted more authority in parenting decisions unless exceptions are clearly spelled out in the orders.

[captain5024]

I'm glad I didn't delay the divorce.  She couldn't even handle two days going to a legitimate therapist.  She demanded I cancel the divorce or she wouldn't continue to go to therapy.  That demand was a non-starter.

I'll talk with my lawyer tomorrow about custody issues.  My wife does not breastfeed.  I have an irregular schedule, I can work for 4-6 days in a row and then be off for a week, sometimes I am only off 2 days in a row, then work for 2 days, etc.  I have a lot of time off but the days of the month vary considerably.  I hope this does not work against me.

[ForeverDad]

Police, firemen, paramedics, medical professionals and many other categories have non-standard working schedules that include weekends.  Most schedules are designed for alternate weekends, but exceptions are  not uncommon.  Your lawyer should confirm your schedule can be accommodated.  The point is that you want frequent visits, not occasional ones.

A dream order is on where you get more than 50% time and at least joint custody.  Not likely to happen with an oppositional wife but aim for that.  The goal is to get a "less bad" temp order.

If she claims you're not an involved father then you or your lawyer state she has been obstructing you.  (Hopefully you have a list of when she has sidelined or refused you parenting, just in case you need to support that.)

We here, including you and me, are proud of our excellent sense of fairness, going out of our way to exhibit generosity, etc.  In high conflict cases, that otherwise excellent quality can sabotage us.  It might incline us to show how generous we are, offering the stbEx more than is wise.

Be aware that court will not award you points or credit if you defer to your stbEx such as agreeing to minimal parenting.  It will not care unless you're nasty or acting underhanded.  You don't have to agree with her self-oriented perceptions.  Yes, court might not order a fair split of time and authority, but don't offer yourself up on the chopping block either, so to speak.

If you're parenting has been largely blocked, ask your judge to address that in your temp order, but even that may not happen.  Stating that you want to be an involved father (but she is making it difficult) is a good thing.  Your baby needs a father.

When the police took away my then-spouse, we had about 6 days before she popped back in our lives.  Her absence was palpable.  The silence was deafening!   My preschooler awoke during the first couple nights and asked where she was and then went right back to sleep.  Never asked again.  After a few days we were making cookies and I mentioned her, thinking to be "fair"  but he refused to talk about her, pulled me back into mixing the batter.  Of course, when she popped back into our lives, she kept saying how much he missed her.

That wasn't the end of the story.  After our mutual protection orders were dismissed a few months later, she blocked all father-child contact for over three months.  Meanwhile, I filed for divorce and got some help from court at the temp order hearing.  Once the magistrate, same one we had months before, verified from her that she had blocked my parental contact for 3 months he then remarked, "I'll fix that."  He used the same alternate weekend schedule for me.  No consequences for her.  No make-up time for me.  Insult on top of injury, she managed to convince the magistrate to delay our reunion by at least a day since she was going to be out of town Saturday for a religious event and wanted to take son with her.  (How critical was the event for a 4 year old to go with her?  Why couldn't she have gone and let me have my full weekend?  He hadn't seen me for over three months!)

If there is any doubt in your mind about being the father, now is a good time to settle that with a paternity test.  Don't do it to question her fidelity, just state that's to make clear you're the father.

[captain5024]

Police, firemen, paramedics, medical professionals and many other categories have non-standard working schedules that include weekends.  Most schedules are designed for alternate weekends, but exceptions are  not uncommon.  Your lawyer should confirm your schedule can be accommodated.  The point is that you want frequent visits, not occasional ones.

A dream order is on where you get more than 50% time and at least joint custody.  Not likely to happen with an oppositional wife but aim for that.  The goal is to get a "less bad" temp order.

If she claims you're not an involved father then you or your lawyer state she has been obstructing you.  (Hopefully you have a list of when she has sidelined or refused you parenting, just in case you need to support that.)

We here, including you and me, are proud of our excellent sense of fairness, going out of our way to exhibit generosity, etc.  In high conflict cases, that otherwise excellent quality can sabotage us.  It might incline us to show how generous we are, offering the stbEx more than is wise.

Be aware that court will not award you points or credit if you defer to your stbEx such as agreeing to minimal parenting.  It will not care unless you're nasty or acting underhanded.  You don't have to agree with her self-oriented perceptions.  Yes, court might not order a fair split of time and authority, but don't offer yourself up on the chopping block either, so to speak.

If you're parenting has been largely blocked, ask your judge to address that in your temp order, but even that may not happen.  Stating that you want to be an involved father (but she is making it difficult) is a good thing.  Your baby needs a father.

If there is any doubt in your mind about being the father, now is a good time to settle that with a paternity test.  Don't do it to question her fidelity, just state that's to make clear you're the father.

This sense of fairness, what do you attribute it to?   Because in this relationship it is my Achilles heel.

[ForeverDad]

This sense of fairness, what do you attribute it to?   Because in this relationship it is my Achilles heel.

I believe most if not all members here also have that inclination to be overly-fair (to our detriment).  It might even be a factor in why we got into these relationships, feeling like damsel-in-distress Nell's savior Dudley Do-Right of the RCMP.  We have had to learn to keep that fairness urge under control lest we be sabotaged.  We can still have integrity and limited fairness yet not expose ourselves blindly to risks of sabotage.

This reminds me when, a few years after my divorce, shared parenting had failed and I was about to get full custody, that I lamented to my son's Guardian ad Litem (GAL or child's lawyer) that I just wished my ex would just get married and stop being so problematic with me.  Her reply?  "No one will marry her."  That was 15 years ago and I've remembered that ever since.

I had married her many years before, before her problematic perspective and behaviors developed, back when I thought I'd saved her from her bad childhood.  Not only would I agree with the GAL, I also think she would never be satisfied to have a relationship with other men.  Either she wouldn't approve of them or they wouldn't  approve of her, long term.

[captain5024]

I believe most if not all members here also have that inclination to be overly-fair (to our detriment).  It might even be a factor in why we got into these relationships, feeling like damsel-in-distress Nell's savior Dudley Do-Right of the RCMP.  We have had to learn to keep that fairness urge under control lest we be sabotaged.  We can still have integrity and limited fairness yet not expose ourselves blindly to risks of sabotage.

This reminds me when, a few years after my divorce, shared parenting had failed and I was about to get full custody, that I lamented to my son's Guardian ad Litem (GAL or child's lawyer) that I just wished my ex would just get married and stop being so problematic with me.  Her reply?  "No one will marry her."  That was 15 years ago and I've remembered that ever since.

I had married her many years before, before her problematic perspective and behaviors developed, back when I thought I'd saved her from her bad childhood.  Not only would I agree with the GAL, I also think she would never be satisfied to have a relationship with other men.  Either she wouldn't approve of them or they wouldn't  approve of her, long term.

I perceive this dynamic, at least initially -- as having shades of martyrdom and covert narcissism.   What do you think? 

I have often found women that I thought needed "saving".   Sacrificing myself to save someone else.  It's a nice fantasy, but it isn't true or healthy. 

My current marriage (and divorce) is no exception, unfortunately.