BPD Apology -- and Long-Term Change?

[HoratioX]

Among the many commonalities in stories on this board and online from people who have a BPD (or anxiety, CPTSD, etc.) ex. is repeat apologies.

That is, their ex. transgresses in a major way and apologizes, frequently promising to not do it again. But seemingly invariably, that ex. then does something else or even the same thing -- like lying or cheating -- rendering the previous apology and promise meaningless.

My question is has anyone ever had an ex. with BPD (or anxiety, CPTSD, etc.) who apologized for a major transgression and made promises -- and then actually followed through long term?

Now, we can all define long term differently, but for the sake of the question, let's just say more than three years. Similarly, we might define a major transgression differently, but I'd define it as something that seriously threatens the relationship and not the minor things that couples can argue about -- breaking a date or a white lie about some minor issue to not hurt feelings.

[EyesUp]

Not in my case.

I had some temporary success with boundaries, but relatively little in the way of reliability on anything from her side.

e.g., when I said "If you continue to mention divorce, there will be a divorce" she stopped threatening divorce for a few years.

However, when she agreed to work on budgets together, or when she said that her affair was a mistake, in relatively short order she was still spending, accusing me of being financially abusive because I was concerned about spending (while she was voluntarily unemployed), and she hopped on Ashley Madison to start a new affair...

Sure, she'd apologize now and then, but with resentment. I wish I had spotted that last part much sooner...

[seekingtheway]

When I look back at my other relationships, I notice growth was possible in many areas. Not all areas, but many. A collaborative approach to problems was always there, and big transgressions were not usually repeated, though patterns of relating are quite deeply ingrained in most people and aren't simple to fix, so there were repeated problems in those relationships too. The unsolveable problems, I think the Gottmans call those? Which are normal and to be expected in any relationship.

But with my ex with BPD, no, there wasn't much movement on any of the things that were causing us issues. The same things happened and I can't actually think of a single thing that I raised that was then solved and not repeated. I think the thing was the very confident assurances that certain things would 'definitely never happen again', or promises of certain things happening. But none of those things came to pass. I think that's where the difference was, the confident assurance of something that he probably knew he couldn't follow through with, so as not to lose the relationship. In the future, that's something I will need to be more aware of, big bold promises being made and not coming to pass...

[HoratioX]

Not in my case.

I had some temporary success with boundaries, but relatively little in the way of reliability on anything from her side.

e.g., when I said "If you continue to mention divorce, there will be a divorce" she stopped threatening divorce for a few years.

However, when she agreed to work on budgets together, or when she said that her affair was a mistake, in relatively short order she was still spending, accusing me of being financially abusive because I was concerned about spending (while she was voluntarily unemployed), and she hopped on Ashley Madison to start a new affair...

Sure, she'd apologize now and then, but with resentment. I wish I had spotted that last part much sooner...

This tracks. I found my ex. would often express what seemed heartfelt apologies and then return -- sometimes within a day -- to the same behaviors.

I'd agree about wishing to spot things sooner. I will say, my instincts said pretty early on something was off, but it wasn't until much later I got actual confirmation (or at least more evidence -- I'm not sure much was ever 100% confirmed because even if she admitted to wrongdoing, she could contradict that later).

[HoratioX]

When I look back at my other relationships, I notice growth was possible in many areas. Not all areas, but many. A collaborative approach to problems was always there, and big transgressions were not usually repeated, though patterns of relating are quite deeply ingrained in most people and aren't simple to fix, so there were repeated problems in those relationships too. The unsolveable problems, I think the Gottmans call those? Which are normal and to be expected in any relationship.

But with my ex with BPD, no, there wasn't much movement on any of the things that were causing us issues. The same things happened and I can't actually think of a single thing that I raised that was then solved and not repeated. I think the thing was the very confident assurances that certain things would 'definitely never happen again', or promises of certain things happening. But none of those things came to pass. I think that's where the difference was, the confident assurance of something that he probably knew he couldn't follow through with, so as not to lose the relationship. In the future, that's something I will need to be more aware of, big bold promises being made and not coming to pass...

It ultimately all just felt like empty bargaining to me, for whatever reason, to keep me in her life.

I'm asking the question, in part, so I can feel more confident giving advice to those who are or were in a relationship with someone with BPD (or similar) and believes after breaking it off they gave up on something with hope.  I don't believe there is much hope, and breaking it off is always the right thing to do.

I hold out for the possibility there is someone out there who came to enjoy great change and happiness with their relationship with someone with BPD (or similar). But I've not come across any accounts of this.

What I have seen is some people claiming people with BPD can go into remission, whatever that means.  If that's a total cessation of issues and transgressions -- like lying and cheating -- for an extended period of time -- years -- then I might say there is some hope. But it still feels like anyone choosing to stay in that relationship will spend a lot of time either consciously choosing to ignore the warning signs or living each day in the relationship waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[seekingtheway]

I'm not sure - I think there are stories out there of people with BPD who have stabilised through committed therapy, but I think they are the minority rather than the majority.

I can only speak from my own experience, and what we read on the boards here, and it's clear that long-lasted, meaningful change is hard to enact - for all of us - but there are so many people in the world whose stories we don't know... and I don't think I can handle the idea of a world where there is no hope for someone who truly desires change for themselves. I think there has to be hope for everyone. What we do with that hope is up to us. For us, on the healing side of a relationship with someone with BPD, I think the hope is that we learn our lessons, get healthy, get strong, and put ourselves at least equal first instead of last...

[EyesUp]

it's clear that long-lasted, meaningful change is hard to enact - for all of us

THIS.

My uBPDxw has made conspicuous changes since our D and objectively appears to be doing much better now than in the 2 years that preceded the D.  

However.

She's still prone to outbursts of anger and rages, and not just with me - we still interact because: kids - so I have some visibility.

She cycled through another job, "didn't like the people"...

She's still prone to conflict - there's always something wrong with a kid's coach / teacher / therapist / doctor / etc. - the focus is rarely on productive engagement, it's generally "this sucks, we need to do something else" i.e., bail and start over.

"The schools in this town are terrible" - the schools are in the top 10% in the state, in arguably the best public education state in the country...

Still has the same dynamics with her mother, father, sisters...  hot and cold.

So - in fairness, she's made some observable changes: remarried, new job (actually second new job), etc.  

However deeply seated patterns and behaviors continue, from what I can see.

In a sense, she's like any other midlife person - experiencing change. However the BPD aspects appear to be persistent, if somewhat tempered, when she's engaged or distracted with, you know, actual life...   it may be that BPDs, like everyone else, do change as they age and go through life's stages.  Is it the BPD that's changing, or some other aspects of how the self interacts with the rest of the world?

Like everything else - It probably varies from individual to individual.

[HoratioX]

I'm not sure - I think there are stories out there of people with BPD who have stabilised through committed therapy, but I think they are the minority rather than the majority.

I can only speak from my own experience, and what we read on the boards here, and it's clear that long-lasted, meaningful change is hard to enact - for all of us - but there are so many people in the world whose stories we don't know... and I don't think I can handle the idea of a world where there is no hope for someone who truly desires change for themselves. I think there has to be hope for everyone. What we do with that hope is up to us. For us, on the healing side of a relationship with someone with BPD, I think the hope is that we learn our lessons, get healthy, get strong, and put ourselves at least equal first instead of last...

I do think long-term change is a challenge for everyone, though that sentiment also, perhaps, creates a sense of parity that is unrealistic between someone who is flawed but healthy versus someone who is profoundly mentally ill or emotionally unstable and unhealthy.  I'd say the same about a sense of hope, not because I don't think on a moral level everyone deserves hope, but on a medical level, someone who is already quite ill has a much tougher road to travel.

A big reason I'm saying this is because I think these sentiments are what, unfortunately, can keep someone in a relationship with someone with BPD (or anxiety, CPTSD, etc.) much too long, to the degree that now they suffer greatly from the trauma inflicted.  Many, if not most of us, began to see problems in our exes that told us to run, but out of sympathy or empathy, as well as hope, chose to stay in that unhealthy relationship even though it had become toxic.

There is guilt involved, too, which is to say believing that ending a relationship with the ex., it could feel like we were abandoning them in their greatest time of need. We might well have been.  But the problem is if they're unlikely to change and their behavior is toxic and/or traumatic, now we are, to some degree, inflicting harm on ourselves.

So, this is why I look to see if people with BPD (and so forth) actually do in large numbers both apologize and then follow through with the appropriate changes in behavior. I think many of us are or were looking for that until it finally sunk in it wasn't going to happen. But if it's rare for such apologies to come, along with profound, meaningful change, I think it can be easier for us to not accept that ending the relationship was appropriate but also to advise others to consider doing the same.

[HoratioX]

THIS.

My uBPDxw has made conspicuous changes since our D and objectively appears to be doing much better now than in the 2 years that preceded the D.  

However.

She's still prone to outbursts of anger and rages, and not just with me - we still interact because: kids - so I have some visibility.

She cycled through another job, "didn't like the people"...

She's still prone to conflict - there's always something wrong with a kid's coach / teacher / therapist / doctor / etc. - the focus is rarely on productive engagement, it's generally "this sucks, we need to do something else" i.e., bail and start over.

"The schools in this town are terrible" - the schools are in the top 10% in the state, in arguably the best public education state in the country...

Still has the same dynamics with her mother, father, sisters...  hot and cold.

So - in fairness, she's made some observable changes: remarried, new job (actually second new job), etc.  

However deeply seated patterns and behaviors continue, from what I can see.

In a sense, she's like any other midlife person - experiencing change. However the BPD aspects appear to be persistent, if somewhat tempered, when she's engaged or distracted with, you know, actual life...   it may be that BPDs, like everyone else, do change as they age and go through life's stages.  Is it the BPD that's changing, or some other aspects of how the self interacts with the rest of the world?

Like everything else - It probably varies from individual to individual.

I do think people are individuals, too, but diseases tend to run similar courses. That's why the medical profession tends to operate not on absolutes but on percentages, with treatment not necessarily universal but following a methodology that subscribes to similar grounding. So, if a particular illness has a 90% likelihood of progressing the same way, the 10% where it does not is the exception, not the rule. Similarly, if 90% of people with BDP (and similar) apologize but then repeat the same behavior, perhaps multiple times, that's a pretty good predictor to be able to warn others in a relationship with someone with BPD their best course of action might include not taking an apology serious nor expecting a promise to be kept. 

[seekingtheway]

A big reason I'm saying this is because I think these sentiments are what, unfortunately, can keep someone in a relationship with someone with BPD (or anxiety, CPTSD, etc.) much too long, to the degree that now they suffer greatly from the trauma inflicted.  Many, if not most of us, began to see problems in our exes that told us to run, but out of sympathy or empathy, as well as hope, chose to stay in that unhealthy relationship even though it had become toxic.

This is very true - the empathy and hope does keep many of us stuck in relationships that are clearly unhealthy. We hope for many things, including for them to get treatment, we hope for the relationship to return to the honeymoon state that swept us off our feet, we hope for promises to be kept, we hope we are good enough for them to want to get better etc etc. It was the first thing my therapist said to me when I went to see her, that we need to obliterate hope, which was keeping me stuck.

But I think this kind of false hope is a separate thing to the hope that we can hold for our own growth and healing... because false hope is based on someone else changing, whereas hope for ourselves is something we have a lot more influence over.

Just re anxiety - I would class myself as someone with anxiety, and when I look back, I do still struggle with it just as I did when I was younger. But it's changed over the years. The way I manage it is different, and the awareness I have about how it affects people close to me is different. So in terms of how I am able to show up in a relationship, yes, I have changed... quite a lot, and I hope I will continue to change for the better in this regard. It's a longer, harder road for those who have more serious conditions than just straight-up anxiety.

I've seen enough stories of people with BPD making improvements, and enough experts who seem to collaborate with these claims that I do believe it's possible to make gains, though I think BPD is a life-long condition that is maintained rather than cured. And although I'm no expert, I suspect the likelihood of change depends on the skills, values and co-morbidities that already exist within that person. But again, I do think it's a minority, so it's a big risk to ever depend on someone changing.

To be honest, no matter what we tell people to do, I think most people are on their own learning trajectory... and the best we can sometimes do when others come for advice is to listen and encourage them to get in touch with their own intuition and knowing, to take care of their own needs and have as much empathy for themselves as they do for our partners - I think people tend to come to the right decision for themselves when they are able to do those things for themselves.

So. all in all, I think keeping hold of hope for ourselves and the human race is important... but learning when we are holding onto false hope in an unhealthy relationship and letting go of that is what allows us to break free and stay safe.

[HoratioX]

This is very true - the empathy and hope does keep many of us stuck in relationships that are clearly unhealthy. We hope for many things, including for them to get treatment, we hope for the relationship to return to the honeymoon state that swept us off our feet, we hope for promises to be kept, we hope we are good enough for them to want to get better etc etc. It was the first thing my therapist said to me when I went to see her, that we need to obliterate hope, which was keeping me stuck.

But I think this kind of false hope is a separate thing to the hope that we can hold for our own growth and healing... because false hope is based on someone else changing, whereas hope for ourselves is something we have a lot more influence over.

Just re anxiety - I would class myself as someone with anxiety, and when I look back, I do still struggle with it just as I did when I was younger. But it's changed over the years. The way I manage it is different, and the awareness I have about how it affects people close to me is different. So in terms of how I am able to show up in a relationship, yes, I have changed... quite a lot, and I hope I will continue to change for the better in this regard. It's a longer, harder road for those who have more serious conditions than just straight-up anxiety.

I've seen enough stories of people with BPD making improvements, and enough experts who seem to collaborate with these claims that I do believe it's possible to make gains, though I think BPD is a life-long condition that is maintained rather than cured. And although I'm no expert, I suspect the likelihood of change depends on the skills, values and co-morbidities that already exist within that person. But again, I do think it's a minority, so it's a big risk to ever depend on someone changing.

To be honest, no matter what we tell people to do, I think most people are on their own learning trajectory... and the best we can sometimes do when others come for advice is to listen and encourage them to get in touch with their own intuition and knowing, to take care of their own needs and have as much empathy for themselves as they do for our partners - I think people tend to come to the right decision for themselves when they are able to do those things for themselves.

So. all in all, I think keeping hold of hope for ourselves and the human race is important... but learning when we are holding onto false hope in an unhealthy relationship and letting go of that is what allows us to break free and stay safe.

I'm thinking less in terms of personal growth, though, and more in terms of what to tell others who may find themselves in or about to be in a relationship with someone with BPD (and related). While I understand not all people with BPD (and related) are the same, it seems as though there are so many stories of those who were in toxic relationships with such people that some kind of general warning is advised. But instead, I think a lot of people -- perhaps too many -- are buoyed by the hope that their partner with BPD (and related) can (and will) change in time, and so they stay in a toxic situation either too long or indefinitely.

It's akin to cigarettes. Not everyone who smokes will get sick, and of those that do, not everyone with get fatally sick. But a large number of people do, making it one of the worst diseases. If people decided to pick up a cigarette because they paid too much attention to those who either never get sick or get sick with something treatable, they might put themselves in harm's way with something where the odds aren't as good as they think they are.

I think something similar happens when getting involved with someone with BPD (and similar). They read or hear that it is treatable and that some people are in successful relationships, and so the urgency to stay out of such relationships isn't as strong. I've read more than a few accounts now of people who seem to have done just that, staying in a relationship far too long after being kind and patient, going to couples counseling, convincing (and supporting) their BPD (and related) partner to attend therapy, and so on.

Part of the reason I asked the original question is I think people with BPD (and related) often do apologize for their actions -- and this is taken by their partner as sincere and meaningful. Why wouldn't it be? When most people apologize, they mean it. But even when people with BPD (and related) do mean it, that doesn't mean they follow through. And that, I think, gives a lot of false hope to the partner, who it seems invariably stays in the relationship for too long and suffers.

[seekingtheway]

It sounds like you're in a position where you've been through something and you want to help others, and potentially save them from going through the level of hurt that you went through yourself. It's a noble intention, and one I'm sure many people here also share. We definitely need the wisdom of people who've been through it and can offer different perspectives to consider.

I think the level of damage done in a relationship that is unhealthy can be massive and can be very disruptive to a person's life, so it makes sense you want to warn people of a likely outcome.

I perceived your original question to be asking whether there is any hope for change, of which I've given my thoughts, and I do feel somewhat confident that change and healing is possible for some people with BPD/CPTSD/Anxiety with the right conditions and support. But I know this topic is contentious, and there are different viewpoints out there, even from the experts.

But in terms of people holding onto false hope for someone who is stuck in unhealthy patterns, I understand and agree with what you're saying. I myself stayed too long, gave way too many chances, and believed the apologies and promises.

But I think we could look even deeper with this, and look at the reasons why some of us hold onto that false hope. Some of this is a simple case of believing what we are told, but much of it is tied to our own dysfunction, our own fear of abandonment, lack of self-worth or co-dependency. We want to believe... we need to believe... and so we do, no matter what anybody tells us. In fact, people telling us what to do can sometimes even work in the opposite way and entrench people in their position. I know it did with me - I think you'll see a past post of mine where I went back for another round with my ex because of a conversation I had with a friend where she was telling me to get out and that he was a lost cause... I felt defensive and protective over him... and I went back. I think I felt judged by her, like she didn't get it, she didn't understand he had good parts too.

I think at some point in the process, we realise we have to go on our own journey, and heal the holes we have inside of us that mean we hold onto scraps of hope, we cling to the dream rather than accepting the reality of what is in front of us.

In therapy, I've had to dig into my fear of abandonment and why I would do anything but lose the relationship - sure, some of this was my ex's responsibility, because he was very convincing with his words and promises of change and he knew about his unstable history, but hid it from me. But a lot of it is about me and my history. The proof was there in his actions, time and time again.. and still I stayed. It's quite common with the caretaking/empathetic/anxious attachment types. So the reasons people stay and hold onto false hope are complex, and not easy to change... which sort of brings this idea we're discussing in a full circle as well... that long-term change can be really difficult for all of us.

[HoratioX]

I think it's a natural human inclination to want to warn others if one has something to share. I'd like to think most people would do this, given the chance.

The challenge with someone with BPD (and related), though, isn't so much there is or isn't hope but that the odds are rather poor for a positive outcome. That may seem a harsh assessment, but most of the more hopeful things I've read have come from people with BPD (and related) themselves and not from the victims of their behavior. I'd take that with a grain of salt. From the victims, I have seen little to suggest any meaningful change -- unless the victim is willing to rationalize putting up with it.

But I wanted to ask my question to see if others may have had different experiences or had further insight.

I do think people should work on themselves. That's an ongoing human endeavor for all of us, at least until we reach a point in life when we realize we've been striving for something that may or may not be possible.

The challenge is we live in a time when, in what might be considered a noble effort to destigmatize mental illness, we sometimes put more emphasis on the victim to make changes than those who victimize them.  It's almost like gaslighting away the culpability.

No, I'm not saying that's an absolute. But I am saying a pattern I see in some responses to people who come forward, often hopeful, while being in a relationship with someone with BPD (or related) is  that with enough therapy, the person with BPD (or related) has a good chance to go into remission. Meanwhile, the victim needs to ask themselves questions about why they're in the relationship with someone like that. That, by nature, seems to suggest sharing culpability.

I think a wiser question would be to ask would the victim be behaving in the same way if they were in a relationship with a healthy person. In other words, their actions or behaviors may not be their natural inclination at all, but merely a response to something particular.  And that may only be from this particular kind of situation, where someone knows what buttons to push. When we're talking about people with Cluster B personality disorders, we're often talking about master manipulators.

In the meantime, though, if the hope for meaningful change is slim, I think we should acknowledge that up front. There's a distinction to be made between possible and plausible, and low and high odds. That seems to get lost in some of the discussions I read (and I'm not necessarily talking about on these boards).

To put it another way, it's entirely possible that rattlesnake with its back up and rattling loudly and threatening isn't actually going to strike, but I'd rather tell the person the odds are really against it rather than give them false hope that ends up getting them bit. And then when they get bit, I'd rather keep the focus on the snake as culpable rather than take the person aside and ask them to think about what they think it says about them to get bit in the first place. I suppose if they have a habit of being bitten, that might indicate a pattern to explore. But if they're just walking along and a snake pops out of the bushes, I think the snake has more explaining to do.

[SnailShell]

One problem along these lines is that health websites can describe BPD and similar as ‘Problems with emotional regulation; difficulty in conceptualising a sense of self’ etc etc.

And this medical language really doesn’t convey the reality of living with someone who struggles with the condition.

As I researched my ex’s diagnosis (prior to getting in deep with her), the official medical websites looked kind of benign, and the forums looked a bit hysterical and extreme.

My sense of things - I realise this might sound harsh - would be to think about BPD and similar in the same bracket as an alcohol addiction.

It seems essential for people to realise that the condition is very real, that it’s very big, that sufferers *must* take responsibility, and that supporters *mustn’t* enable or fall into traps.

I don’t endorse treating people with BPD as scary and subhuman, but - as my therapist said - ‘this girl needs stable, mid-level attachments which can be peaceful and healing for her; not intense level romantic connections which are tumultuous by nature.

While in recovery, it seems that people with BPD would really benefit from family, friends, community groups, hobbies etc etc -and would be better off avoiding romantic interactions altogether.

I realise that’s not realistic, but it seems as though ‘healthy’ folk, should really be keeping BPD (and similar) sufferers at total arms length until they’ve proven over a long period of time that they’re genuinely ready for relationship.

[HoratioX]

I'd agree. I get why the medical/psychology side wants to present things in a, for lack of a better term, more hopeful way because they see the condition as treatable. But the language can imply more possibility for recovery than is realistic.

I think the comparison to alcoholism works in terms of the lifelong compulsion.  But -- and I don't mean this to minimalize the depths of struggle recovering alcoholics go through, including the few I know -- I do think there is a key distinction. That is, alcoholism doesn't manifest itself in the sort of distorted mental and emotional ways that something like BPD (and related) does.

While it's true alcoholics may conceal or lie about their behavior, they don't often engage in the same levels of toxic behaviors with others that people with BPD (and related) do.  Their view of the world and others isn't as distorted, and while their personalities may be affected while drinking, they're usually more clear eyed and lucid when sober.

Again, that's not to minimalize the devastating effect that alcoholism can have on people. But the recovery rates, short and long term, for alcoholics seem to be higher.  So, if people were to use recovering alcoholics as a kind of benchmark for potential success for people with BPD (and related), I think it might be misleading.

I do think I'd advise anyone considering getting involved with someone with BPD (and related) to absolutely not. I remember when my ex's behavior started to become more erratic, I ran it past someone I know who herself has dealt with mental illness. Without batting an eye, her advice was to run. She told me in no uncertain terms my ex would not change no matter how much she said she would and the longer I stayed in the relationship, the more I was setting myself up for a bigger fall. At the time, I didn't quite want to accept that assessment, which seemed rather too cold and hopeless, but she obviously turned out to be right.

[SnailShell]

Yes, I recognise the truth in what you’re saying!

I think I’d have seen it as LESS severe than an alcohol addiction before I knew the truth.

And I think this kind of ‘societal ignorance’ around it is unhelpful all round.

I’m mindful that this is a public forum, and if a BPD sufferer is reading this, I wouldn’t want to throw blockers in front of their recovery.

A distant friend of mine has a BPD diagnosis and she’s sounds amazing - she gave her in-laws full permission to call her out on bad behaviour, she takes her meds, she does DBT every single day, she wants to work as a BPD ambassador to show other sufferers that change is possible, she’s very very clear headed about acceptable vs unacceptable behaviour.

Who knows if she’ll stay the course, but I hope she does.

Perhaps on the BPD spectrum, there are factors which make it easier/harder to take responsibility; and perhaps certain people will take it incredibly seriously and give it their best shot.

But I also note that many, many won’t (maybe even the vast majority)…

when I was with my bpd ex (and for a while after), I had such cognitive dissonance, and such confusion.

I understand exactly what that’s like, but sitting here with a clearer head, I mean… I read stories on forums about people who are ‘really confused by their girlfriend’s/wife’s/ex’s behaviour’, and I get it.

But I ALSO think… ‘yeah but… they’re quite possibly severely unwell, and this is exactly what you’d expect in an unwell, not very nice person’.

The clear answer seems to be: step away! Leave well alone!

I don’t mean to sound in any way judgey there - and I’m sure there are really good, genuine reasons why marriage/long term relationship was the right call for those couples; and ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ because I could’ve easily done the same if she hadn’t kept breaking up with me.

But all of this is to say - I think this is a really serious condition, and that conditions like CPTSD etc are similarly serious - don’t go there. Just don’t.

Set boundaries, be decisive in rejecting bad behaviour, and if the person isn’t able to abide by that standard, find someone to have a reciprocal healthy relationship with.

I don’t see that many relationships are particularly great for the sufferer, and I certainly don’t see it being great for the supporter (often it’s actively harmful), and to pretend otherwise feels like denial or enabling.

I hope anyone who feels hurt by my strong view is okay - I don’t mean to talk badly about anyone or judge anyone’s choices.

I’m just one guy on the internet and I might be completely wrong about everything I’ve just said - and I don’t know anything about the individual nuances of people’s lives etc.

But by and large, I think drawing the lines in big, bold, clear, helpful places is most helpful for me - probably most helpful for most people… and it seems more helpful for to have a culturally accepted view that

“If you’re unwell with something like BPD, you need to take full responsibility for it. Other people will help you, but people generally accept that it’s a bad idea to date you right now, please focus entirely on recovery, and when things are stabilised those deeper relationships open up and become a possibility.”

We’d do this with addiction, by and large, so… it’d only be a similar mindset, I think…!

[HoratioX]

That's another good point -- not to discourage those with BPD (and the like) from seeking professional help and recovery. It absolutely is possible.

I think we're both coming at the same issue, though, of it not being oversold in so many discussions on the Web, especially to the victims of BPD (and the like) exes. Because they're the other side of the equation that often gets left out. Victims may, themselves, now have to deal with a lifetime of trauma.

Not being a therapist, I obviously can't comment medically, but I would say that perhaps the best approach for someone with BPD going through therapy and getting into recovery is to avoid a romantic relationship with anyone until they feel they've reached recovery. That would seem to be the best way to offer the most protection not only for a potential paramour but also for the person with BPD (and the like).

But certainly I wish the best to anyone with BPD (and the like) and wish that they do seek professional help and work on recovery.

[SnailShell]

Yes - I fully agree.

I also agree with something you said earlier (I think) about not blaming the supporter too much.

There seems to be a narrative at times that you shouldn’t focus on the BPD sufferer and their behaviour, instead you should look at yourself and why you got into that relationship in the first place.

I do agree with that, but I also think it can do a lot of heavy lifting -

If you meet a girl or guy who’s good looking, charismatic and sweet, of course you’ll like them.

If they’re then REALLY into you… you might feel uncomfortable, but it’s not exactly a criminal offence on the surface, is it?

Then if they tell you about their severe childhood trauma, you might still feel uncomfortable; but you might also think

“Okay… that’s rough for them… but they *seem* like they’re trying to heal, and… maybe I’ll give this just a bit more time to see how it runs.”

If you’ve had literally no experience of knowledge of BPD or CPTSD, how would you know?

And how would you know how much it bonds you just to hear those trauma stories, or to have that early ‘love bombing’ type behaviour?

It feels manageable until you’re in too deep to leave easily.

But the point is - the supporter in that situation hasn’t done much very wrong at all.

Unless you’re a trauma therapist or you know from experience, it’s all brand new and no one can predict the future.

And these relationships become extremely confusing very quickly - it’d make most people feel and act a little crazy or out of character; which is also normal.

Healthy relationships play a part in our own health, unhealthy ones play a part in our decline - we’re humans, it’s how it works.

My learning points involved a few things -

1 - it’s okay to be a bit ‘meaner’ with hard boundaries and healthy assertiveness

2 - I need good community and a good work situation when I date, so that I’m in a place to make healthy judgements

3 - I sometimes fall into the trap of believing gat I’m responsible for other people’s emotions.

There might be one or two other things too.

The thing is - none of that stuff is *that* weird - most people probably have similar types of thing, it’s just that most people don’t randomly meet a BPD sufferer who wants to date them.

Yes, some people would be more naturally assertive, or less receptive to their unhealthy patterns - and we can learn from that; but the BPD sufferer is the one who’s mostly at fault in that kind of situation.

I say that with respect and compassion, because if I had BPD… urgh… it must be absolutely horrible.

But the helpfulness of being told:

“Hey man, you need to dig deep into your psyche and ask why you got into that relationship!”

Okay, some people have to I guess, and we all have to do some soul searching now and then.

But it’s also not THAT weird, and not necessarily a sign of deep codependency issues of whatever (though I guess it may be in some people).

I think some of this common sense -

- don’t put up with crap behaviour (even if someone does have trauma or whatever - especially if they do actually, because they need to heal, not be enabled).

- be healthy ourselves

- have a realistic view of one’s own shortcomings (not blaming the other person entirely, but also not imagining that it’s necessarily a sign of some deep, deep personal issue - because it may be relatively normal)

[SnailShell]

^^^^ I guess I’m saying that because adding a sense of shame of personal flaw onto the burden of moving on from a horrible relationship… I think it could be unhelpful.

And imagining that a person has to go on a five year journey of self examination into their early childhood or whatever… I think it could keep people stuck.

Again - I’ve done my own self examination, had therapy, and taken a good few months to heal (around eight so far), but there’s definitely a place for down-to-earth, rational thinking; and practical,  clear-headed action, in all of this.

I think so, anyway!

[seekingtheway]

For the healing process to be effective and complete, I think it's helpful to come to the realisation that someone else's behaviour is nothing to do with you and it's certainly not your fault. Nor is their ability to change or not change anything to do with you.

I also agree that there's no way of knowing how things will pan out when you first get into a relationship with someone who suffers from BPD. So there should be no blame there either and agree it can be unhelpful to spend a lot of time wondering why you 'attracted' that into your life. I think a lot of us limp away from these relationships feeling like we have been blamed for everything that went wrong and things that didn't even happen, so rejecting all of the false and abusive things that were projected onto you and getting grounded in what you know to be your truth is so important...

But even if we do take the blame away from ourselves, there's still room for self reflection and to learn lessons, which can be so useful in terms of standing in an empowered position for the future. For me, taking the time to look at my own patterns and how they interact and enable someone who is not healthy has made me feel more confident about my ability to handle a similar situation in the future. I would handle it differently. In fact, I have already had chance to test these new skills and discernment (not in a romantic relationship, but with other disordered people who are in my vicinity), and I definitely feel safer emotionally knowing I have done some work on this. This is the part we have some control over, so I think that's why it helps to focus on this part at some point in the healing journey?

[SnailShell]

^^ Yes, I completely agree.

For a lot of people, I feel like that looks a bit like learning new skills and challenging/healing past shallow-to-mid level internal patterns.

But I'd also (in my opinion) say that that feels faaaiiirly normal and healthy; and like something that most people should be doing most of the time - albeit a BPD relationship shines a real spotlight on those things and probably makes them feel/seem far more pronounced.

I also think the kind of 'stoic' idea that:

"Only I am ever responsible for the things that happen in my life/happen to me/happen in my thoughts and feelings" is true - but that it might negate the impact that relationships can have - and maybe gaslight a person into believing that they're wrong for feeling impacted by what happened.

Human beings never seem to be complete in a vacuum - we need our community, our family and our friends - so a relationship can impact us and that's okay. A disordered person will - in some way - disorder us too, probably (even if that's just temporary), because we sorta 'plug into' each other and share energy/temperament/habits/values etc.

I don't mean to suggest that we're not responsible though - as you say, it's empowering to be responsible and we're all 100% accountable for what we allow.

I just think... there's a common-sense middle ground in all of this, and that the internet can present various ideas which sound therapeutic and healthy, but may not be necessary for everyone all of the time.

Having a sense of:

"I'm actually okay; there's nothing desperately deeply wrong, I have some skills to learn, some patterns to unlearn, and some growing to do; but also it's not *that* crazy, or weird - and they're the ill person, ultimately."

I feel like it has an accuracy about it that confronts roughly the right things, affirms roughly the right things, and stays on the surface of grounded common sense rather than diving *tooo* deeply into a therapeutic rabbit hole (not suggesting that therapy is unhelpful either - because of course it isn't).

Anyway... hope that makes sense of my thoughts - if they're helpful then great; and if they're not... I might be wrong, and feel free to disregard :D