I'm ready to learn the tools - IV

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This has gone on for months, she cannot/will not let this man go.  

She always says that if it comes down to it and she is forced to choose then its me.  There have been times where he seeminly has given her the same ultimatum (so she says)... .and he supposedly has told her that they can't be friends anymore, but something always brings him back around.  there are days where I wonder if this man really exists and if he does, does he really do/say the things he has... .there has been something off about him since he returned to her life.  one day she doesn't need him, the next she realizes how much she missed him... .

IDK, the whole thing confuses me.

[Oncebitten]

This has gone on for months, she cannot/will not let this man go.  

She always says that if it comes down to it and she is forced to choose then its me.  There have been times where he seeminly has given her the same ultimatum (so she says)... .and he supposedly has told her that they can't be friends anymore, but something always brings him back around.  there are days where I wonder if this man really exists and if he does, does he really do/say the things he has... .there has been something off about him since he returned to her life.  one day she doesn't need him, the next she realizes how much she missed him... .

IDK, the whole thing confuses me.

[Grey Kitty]

IDK, the whole thing confuses me.

She tells you she would choose you over him. Repeatedly. (No idea what she tells him, and honestly, that doesn't even matter!)

And her actions are to keep both you and him around. Repeatedly.

You have two choices here:

• Be in a r/s with her, when she has something like an emotional affair with another guy. (Assuming that is all it is, and for now, that seems credible.)
• End your r/s with her, because you want somebody who can be more faithful to you / more monogamous than she is capable of being

You are confused because you truly, deeply WANT a different choice where she actually is in a r/s with you, and doesn't keep this other guy around.

But that choice doesn't really exist. And wanting it has you confused as !#$!

[livednlearned]

I wonder if this man really exists and if he does, does he really do/say the things he has

 

That's a pretty big gap in trust, OB.

[Oncebitten]

LNL

I know it is, its just hard.  I believe that he exists, and I believe her for the most part on what she says he says/does.  Its just really hard bc she confuses me.  Maybe its a level of FOG, I just can't understand a lot of what has happened in regards to him over the course of the r/s. Perhaps her emotions are just more complex than I can wrap my head around.  She told me once how she had gone to lunch with him, and he asked her if I knew she had gone.  She told him yes, OB is okay with it he trusts me (and I do). His reply to her was if it were me I wouldn't have let you go.   And in her mind that response is ok bc he said it but if I say it its not ok. 

I am not a big fan of ultimatums, but I am really at the point where I feel like I should see what happens if I tell her... .its him or its me. 

[Grey Kitty]

I am not a big fan of ultimatums, but I am really at the point where I feel like I should see what happens if I tell her... .its him or its me.

Based on what you've told us, here's what I'd expect out of that kind of ultimatum:

She would agree, tell you that you are more important, and that she chooses you.

And later (days, weeks, months?) she would be back in touch with him.

What do you think she would do?

[Meili]

Let's slow down for just one moment, OK, OB?

What is exactly is confusing to you about this? I think that it's hard for those of us not in your situation to see what you're seeing. As a result, it all looks really clear to us. But, our seeing it clearly doesn't really help you. So, tell us what it is that is confusing.

[Meili]

She would agree, tell you that you are more important, and that she chooses you.

And later (days, weeks, months?) she would be back in touch with him.

For what it's worth, what GK just wrote is exactly what I repeatedly did to my x with one slight twist, I would contact the ow when my x and I would split.

If I recall correctly, that's kinda what happens to you though isn't it? Your gf gets angry and does the whole "let's be friends" bit, reaches out to him, re-ignites that friendship, and then reconciles with you. He's now back in the picture and she feels justified in not keeping her promise because the two of you were not a couple at the time.

Of course, I may be projecting my own bad behavior onto her, so feel free to tell me that I'm wrong.

[Notwendy]

I think in general - ultimatums imposed on another person are not effective. Ultimatums- boundaries- on ourselves are. Saying to oneself " this is my limit" is more of an internal boundary- and acting on it.

An ultimatum needs to be enforceable- and that is hard to do with an adult- in a LDR especially. I think if you were to make one about this guy, she may just be more discreet about it- see him anyway.

You say ( and she says?) she loves you and wants to be with you. Those are words, but her actions don't coincide with them. Although this is confusing, I think it is important to consider actions as revealing what she wants. She wants to be with you, and him too.

Your choice is whether or not to accept this.

I also see a potential Karpman triangle with the three of you. I also wonder if the longing for something you can't have isn't part of the appeal/( addiction) of this woman. Emotional drama can have an addictive quality- the longing, the getting together ( high ) then the let down ( withdrawal) and craving again- which can mimic drugs. I also think we are naturally inclined to want what we can't have- and day to day life with a partner can get routine and not-dramatic. Some people like the drama and are bored with the ordinary.

Like a drug, the high/low intense patterns have their appeal- but also have consequences. This woman may like the drama of two uncertain guys wanting her.

[Oncebitten]

Meili

what confuses me is how someone who tells you they love you everyday, and goes on and on about how they want to be with you can keep causing the same hurt over and over.  She knows that he upsets me, has asked me if I would rather she didn't see him.  I tell her yes and she always says ok.  Then something comes up, often after weeks of not speaking to him and she tells me that she is going to do whatever with him.  Truthfully its always something innocent, lunch, or whatever.  But she knows I dont like him and dont want her with him. I am sure this comes off as a bit controlling, but I assure you this is limited to one man.

I really think this is an issue like you have Meili, she keeps him around bc he allows her to not be completely vulnerable with me.

Yes in the past she would run to him when we were bad.  She has quit doing that thankfully.  This last reconnect was bc of him, she tells me.  He had a family crisis and needed to talk to someone, she was already familiar with the situation.

Here's the odd thing, sometimes she asks me about doing stuff with him.  Other times she just tells me, about it.  I always object or growl about it a bit.  She gets mad tells me she should be able to do what she wants.  Then asks how I feel, when I explain it upsets me she then cancels with him or tells him no.  I guess thats whats confusing.  Why must we go through the whole process?

[Oncebitten]

I agree that ultimatums are bad.  I dont like giving them. I just get upset with the situation.  She seems completely unable to see how I feel about this.  I realize this is a trust issue on my part, but he is essentially an ex boyfriend, with whom she has a somewhat intimate relationship.  And he has never neen ok with just a platonic relationship.  He says he is now, but I really dont buy it. She feels I am being unreasonable, when I say I don't like you spending time with him bc he is in love with you, she always counters with but what about me I dont love him.   She seems to forget all the times she has used him as a threat... .She has quit doing this, but every time we used to have a fight, it was f u... .I will just call him, he knows how to treat a woman, h*ll he just lives right up the rd I can go see him and do whatever I want with him... .I got a long memory so all that replays in my mind when she talks about seeing him.

[Meili]

what confuses me is how someone who tells you they love you everyday, and goes on and on about how they want to be with you can keep causing the same hurt over and over.

... ./... .

I really think this is an issue like you have Meili, she keeps him around bc he allows her to not be completely vulnerable with me.

... ./... .

Why must we go through the whole process?

I think that you can find the answer to your own question in what you wrote.

I also believe that by reconciling the first two parts that I quoted, you can end your confusion.

It appears that you are looking at it from your own perspective and trying to understand how she thinks. Applying how you would do, think about, and view things won't work. It creates an unreasonable expectation on her which is neither fair to her, nor the basis for a stable relationship.

If you view things, based on what you wrote, from her perspective, it has nothing to do with you. It isn't about whether or not she loves you. It's about how she feels, her needs, and her comfort level. Does that make sense?

If that does make sense, and if it is in fact true (her actions seem to suggest that it's true), we go back to the question that everyone keeps asking you: Is this something that you can radically accept and tolerate in a relationship?

[Oncebitten]

Meili


I have come to realize what you are telling me is true.  And I do believe her, that its me she loves and wants to be with.  We actually had this talk, she recognizes that this all upsets me, and understands why.  She admits that if we weren't in a long distance relationship this wouldn't be an issue.  And I can understand that.  Like I said this issue is limited to one man, not sure if I can pull off radical acceptance or not.

[Meili]

She admits that if we weren't in a long distance relationship this wouldn't be an issue.

So, you don't think that it's a vulnerability issue then, but rather a proximity issue? That she's telling you that she needs another male in her life because you are so far away?

Now I'm the one who is confused.

[Skip]

... .not sure if I can pull off radical acceptance or not.

This is what you can know with some certainty. This is a love triangle. She has two men courting her and this is collectively meeting her needs. She has an emotional attachment (at some level) to both and wants to keep them in her life (we can love two people at the same time). She has mastered a complex balancing act to make this work and to make herself feel reputable (as opposed to lying and cheating). Both men have accepted this - if anything - they are more attentive because of it.

This is what you can't know - whether her characterization of the two relationships to you is completely accurate. There is truth for sure, but at the same time, she would be truthful in telling the other guy that this is a cyber-relationship and she asked you not to move to her town and she is not allowing you to visit her. There are three things that suggest that you don't have an accurate picture of what is going on and this is most likely what is confusing you. There is a significant disconnect in her words and her actions.

• She says the problem is distance, you have begged her to let you resolve it, but does not want to let you resolve it
• She continues to court her ex. She is relating to him in ways to keep him engaged (best to assume that he is not a hapless, idiot). He is begging her to resolve it - she won't.
• She knows this hurts you (it would anyone), you have begged her to stop, and she won't.

What is confusing you is that you are trying desperately to rationalize your feelings, and her words and her actions to create a narrative where you are her one true love - but the narrative doesn't really hold together. You keep trying and hoping... .but you just can't create a narrative where you are her one true love... .it only makes sense if parts of the verifiable reality are significantly changed.

Radical acceptance has been mentioned in this thread. Here are the exact words of the originator of the concept, Marsha Linehan:

So what's Radical Acceptance?  What do I mean by the word 'radical'? Radical means complete and total.  It's when you accept something from the depths of your soul.  When you accept it in your mind, in your heart, and even with your body. It's total and complete.

When you've radically accepted something, you're not fighting it.  It's when you stop fighting reality.  That's what radical acceptance is.

The first step to making this less heartbreaking for you is to accept the reality. Stop fighting it.

Once you let go of this very complex narrative that is based on accepting things you can't know for sure and don't line up with the things you do know, once you accept the reality, then you can better decide what is right for you.

[Oncebitten]

Meili


this is what she tells me... .she says its a proximity problem... .I feel that the real issue may be what you have experienced.

Anyways at least I am not the only one confused. 

[Oncebitten]

Skip

Heres what I know, her not wanting me to move there is not as simple as it sounds.  I have a kid still in school and she doesn't want me to move so far away and then regret it... .she fears and rightfully so that this would lead to me resenting her and thus tearing apart the r/s.  we are stuck in this odd dynamic until one of us can relocate... .that is the plan but a ways off.  As to why she keeps the ex around she says he is a friend and honestly there have been multiple times he has invited her to things, she asks and if I object she doesnt go.

I do believe that if we were closer this would not be an issue.

Like I said I realize that this is a issue for me.  I have to figure out how to be ok with this... .or I have to walk. 

[Skip]

... .she doesn't want me to move so far away and then regret it... .she fears and rightfully so that this would lead to me resenting her and thus tearing apart the r/s.

So she is concerned about creating resentments and yet she doesn't let you visit and she keeps an old lover around and you fight about these issues for months. Doesn't that create resentments that are tearing the relationship apart - now?

Can both of these things be true? A resentment narrative falls apart pretty quickly.

How about a commitment narrative.

• Having you relocate is a big commitment. She is not ready for that. That's sensible.
• Having you visit her routinely 1 weekend a quarter is a much lower commitment. She is not ready for that, either.
• Getting rid of the ex boyfriend is also a commitment. She is not ready for that either.

[Oncebitten]

both are true.  the visiting issue has been resolved.

the only point of contention for me in the relationship outside of distance  (which cant be changed yet) is the friend.

for her its almost a trust thing.  ie she doesn't love him and doesn't want a romantic r/s with him so why should I object to her seeing him on a platonic basis once in awhile.

[Meili]

she doesn't love him and doesn't want a romantic r/s with him so why should I object to her seeing him on a platonic basis once in awhile.

That's a very good question. Having been on both sides of a triangle such as this, I have two questions that may help you answer yours:

1. What do you think is happening now that makes you so uncomfortable?
and
2. What are you afraid will happen in the future that makes you so uncomfortable?

Those questions will probably be hard for you to answer because I'm betting that they require you to admit some truths that you've not been ready to look at yet.

[Skip]

she doesn't love him and doesn't want a romantic r/s with him so why should I object to her seeing him on a platonic basis once in awhile.

How much time was there from the time they ended until the time the two of you started seeing each other? Do you have any indication/suspicions that they have been more than platonic since you met her?

[Grey Kitty]

for her its almost a trust thing.  ie she doesn't love him and doesn't want a romantic r/s with him so why should I object to her seeing him on a platonic basis once in awhile.

YES. It is a trust thing. 100%

She SAYS these things. (Her past actions don't seem to match what she says--at best, she wants a platonic r/s with him but he pushes those limits against her wishes.)

Do you trust her to keep this a platonic relationship?

Not being able to trust her in this r/s is a real problem. If you don't trust her, that's a problem. If she isn't trustworthy, that's a problem too. Either one is very hard to overcome.

[Oncebitten]

Everyone,

I want to trust her, and I do.  But she has this bad habbit of running to him when we are bad.  My fear is that she hangs out with him, we have a brief split for whatever ridiculous reason... .and she sleeps with him.  It happened once before.  

Her thing is if you are in a r/s you stand by your partner.  If they dont like someone then you don't like them and you dont associate with them.  That rule applies to everyone on earth but that man... .she doesn't see it that way... .since she loves me and not him I should have nothing to fear.

If it didnt hurt so much I'd laugh at her warped since of reality.

[Notwendy]

OB, how often do the two of you see each other in person?

From what I can read- this man lives near her and you do not?

[Oncebitten]

Everyone,

we see each other every couple weeks.  Yes he lives fairly close to her, I am a decent ways away. I live far enough away I can't see her every day but could see her more often if she would agree to it.

[Grey Kitty]

This is another case where her words and her actions give you a mixed message.

She has told you that if it wasn't for this distance, your problems with her would go away.

I can't see her every day but could see her more often if she would agree to it.

Please resolve these mixed messages in favor of her actions.

She will deny it if you say it, but clearly she is unwilling to see you more, or is incapable of seeing you more, or (if she allowed it!) would really blow up the relationship if you lived closer to her. Note: I've read several stories here of people who had a pretty good long distance relationship for years, then moved in together, and then the BPD abuse and other bad behavior really exploded.

Yes, she WANTS the closeness and the intimacy with you. But she cannot handle it. I'm 99% sure that if she gets that forced onto her she will blow up the relationship. Given her history, most likely is to impulsively break up with you in a fight, then go sleep with her other "platonic" friend immediately.

[Oncebitten]

Everyone,

She has agreed that we can and should see each other more often.  But I agree she does send mixed messages in a sense.  She still contends that its really just a matter of fairness.  That I shouldn't have to come see her every time which sounds really sincere.  My thing is that right now I have the flexibility to come see her, she doesn't have the same flexibility with her schedule as I do.  Eventually that will change for her and she will be able to come see me.  I am content to make the trip to see her until her situation changes.  She seems to have this reservation that if I do all the traveling then she will some how owe me something, which isn't the case.  Also she doesn't like me coming to town for just the day, she would prefer that when we see each other its for a more extended time period.  Which I get, I am not the biggest fan of spending the entire day on the rd to spend a few hrs with her, but on the flip-side right now all our situation allows is that so I will take what I can get.    

[livednlearned]

Hey OB,

My T pointed out that I was very easily "bamboozled" (her words) by my ex. Same as with my dad.

Do you see that happening with your GF? She says great things! They are so reasonable and believable, and even seem kind and thoughtful.

I guarantee you that when someone is genuinely reasonable and believable and kind and thoughtful, their actions and words are pretty consistent. It feels drama free and easy. There are no mixed messages. Things aren't confusing. They aren't duplicitous.

What do you think about GK's comment:

Please resolve these mixed messages in favor of her actions.

Is there a history for you of someone saying one thing and doing another?

[Oncebitten]

LNL


I suppose I get bamboozled so to speak.  She asks for one thing then something happens that has nothing to do with me and then everything goes out the window.

No I dont really have a history of someone telling me something and doing something different, just her.

[Oncebitten]

It's amazing how everything can seem like its right, how all signs point towards the promise of a future.  How two people couldn't be more in love... .and then the rug gets pulled out from under you.

So apparently the other woman from the summer posted something online somewhere... .In reference to all the struggles she has had.  She made mention of me and what we had, another person brought this to the attention of my gf.  Now I am once again a liar, a cheater, a keeper of secrets... .and we are over.  She regrets she ever met me, I am spineless, classless,... .well you get the point.
I have been blocked and cut off... .I really have no defense bc I dont even know what she read or where she read it.   She refused to tell me where it was posted or who pointed it out to her.  All I know is there are a lot of people who make it a point to involve themselves in my love life.  I am truly at a loss as what to do.  From what she described there was nothing new in the post... .but it brought up all those old feelings.  I offered to address it if she would tell me where I could find it and was accused if playing dumb bc I should know where it was... .I am beyond sick about this, its been months since this happened, its been a long time since she brought it up... .and yet it's like it happened yesterday.  I love her... .but I really dont have an idea as what to do anymore.   She threatened to go sleep with her "friend" last night... .I guess out of spite... .I guess even if we work this out... .I will pay for this mistake for the rest of my life... .no matter how honest, how faithful, how loyal I am to her.  Its to bad, bc I know we are good together but I guess love isn't enough.

[Skip]

Once'

I'm one that believes that as your supporter we have three roles, 1) to stand by you, 2) to help you with perspective (its easier/clearer to outsiders), and 3) to educate of basic human nature.

Everything I say to you is to support you. I can see and relate to your emotional pain. You love her and are willing to do almost anything to stabilize this relationship.

Your perspective that this is a relationship between you and her with some outside interference is not a realistic perspective. Your perspective that all of her actions are "BPD" related and can/should be compensated for is not a realistic perspective.

Your girlfriend is still deeply involved in her prior relationship. This is like a marital affair. The base partner (her prior/current boyfriend) provides A, and B to her. You provide C. C is very important, but a relationship with just C doesn't stand alone. This is why husbands in affairs don't leave their wife (when that is the case) and why she doesn't walk away from boyfriend 1.

This is the infamous 3 legged stool analogy - neither relationship stands on its own.



You know that he (boyfriend 1) has made demands on her and she has responded by picking fights with you to open the door to be intimate with him and/or block you from spending time in her real world. You have been down this path many times. He has a place in her real world - so she isolates you to cyber world - that's how she balances this. She doesn't want your paths to cross. She gets A and B from him. She gets C from you.

This stuff happens all the time on the internet.

If you accept this reality, everything that seem inexplicable will suddenly make sense.  Try it. Go back in your own mind and look at what has happened with this filter on.

It would break my heart to hear this if I were you and it is painful to be the one saying it, but when a girlfriend hasn't shed the prior relationship, courts both of you at the same time, has been intimate with boyfriend 1 well into your relationship, and consistently rejects or sabotages face-to-face time... .

She has an emotional and physical relationship with boyfriend 1 and says forgive her and trust her... .and you are saying "I'll try".  You had a brief cyber-relationship with another women, and this can never be forgiven and you can never be trusted... .and you are saying, "she is right".