I'm ready to learn the tools - IV

[Meili]

There is a lot of focus in this thread (and most of the others in this series) about what your GF is or is not doing. I'm curious about what you are and are not doing in this situation.

She threatened to go sleep with her "friend" last night

What did YOU do/say in response to the threat?

[Oncebitten]

Skip,

thank you for your support, and thank you to everyone here.  I know that I have tested everyones patience.  This relationship has been the hardest thing in my life.  And I haven't led a sheltered life without its share of difficulty.  For whatever reason  (mostly likely my own issues) I have bonded to this woman beyond reason and logic.  

I know what you are telling me is true.  I agree that what I did (while immature) was not done maliciously.  I also agree that her standards are completely out of line.  Her thing has always been how long she has known him, and that she was upfront about her indiscretions. Honesty does not abslove her of maintaining at the least a emotional connection to this man.  She can blame me for this need all she likes.  She insisted on keeping him around long before I did anything wrong.  While I times I am elevated to the position of center of her universe, it is never permanent.  There is always him in the background.  She asked that long ago I cut ties with all the other women in my life, even ones who were platonic friends.  I obliged, I cut ties with the other woman as soon as we started talking to one another again.  The only thing I have ever asked of her was to remove him from her life... .She has always agreed then back tracked on it... .yes I am tired of being the 3rd leg or legs 2 & 3.  I want her and I to be in this together.  And yet she cant do this, there always has to be a backup.  I am sure that once I dont chase her r/s with him will falter.  I suppose she needs more love, support, and reassurance than 1 person can give her.   I tried, I truly did.  But I am tired if the constant threat of "there is man right up the road who loves me"... .
I love her, and I gave her every ounce of myself a man could give... .just wasnt enough.  So now begins the process of peicing me back together... .sigh, thats not going to be fun.0a

[Oncebitten]

Meili

I told her not too, I tried to get her to stay on the phone with me.  Tried to reason with her about what she was doing.  Reminded her of our plans for the future. Reminded her that this new post was not new, not new info anyways.  From what I got from her the OW didnt write anything new, really cant say as she wouldn't tell me where it was at, and I could not find it.  So I can only go off of her raging at me. 

I suppose I could have said you sleep with him we are over for good... .not sure that would have accomplished anything given her saying we are over for good.  I tried to call this morning and I am blocked... .really no way to talk to her at this point.  And maybe thats best... .not sure anything good would come from it.
Her core issue is that there are essentially other people who know her business.  And its embarrassing, its embarrassing to me as well... .but I cant control what this woman writes... .h*ll cant even address it bc I don't know where it is.

[Meili]

Let's stay focused on you for the moment and your response to her threat.

The threat was abusive, pure and simple. It was specifically designed to elicit a specific response and cause you emotional pain.

The question that you must ask yourself is why YOU ALLOWED yourself to stay in that painful situation?

I have written on these boards before about how I allowed myself to say in an abusive relationship because the immediate pain of the abuse was easier to handle than the fear of losing my pwBPD. That somehow, in my mind, that my stopping the abuse translated into my not being good enough. It was very twisted and unhealthy thinking. That was my reason for doing it, what's yours?

[Oncebitten]

thats exactly why I have stayed.  The abuse is far less painful than being cut off or out.  I know that she is bad for me.  But her yelling and name calling hurts less than not being with her.
Yes I know she said what she said to hurt me. She was hurt by what she read, she blames me for that pain, and therefore wants me to feel her pain.  She knows that his name causes me pain, and she uses it when all else fails.  It is abuse, the worst part is she abuses us (me and the OM) both  with her actions.  Her running to him every time she and I hit a rough spot hurts both men.  It hurts me and gives him hope which she takes away swiftly.  She claims to care about both of us... .but clearly its herself she cares about.  She keeps us both around in order to not have to be alone.

[Skip]

She insisted on keeping him around long before I did anything wrong.  While I times I am elevated to the position of center of her universe, it is never permanent.  There is always him in the background... .// ... .yes I am tired of being the 3rd leg or legs 2 & 3.

Once, it's a big step to see this as what is happening. There are hundreds of references like this on the Internet.

You’re dating an amazing new man. Trouble is this amazing new man already has a woman at home. That’s right; you’re dating a married man. Every couple of days I get an email from another woman telling me they’re dating a married man, or a man who has a long-term girlfriend, but it’s OK because, “He’s going to leave her.”

The cold hard reality to all this, is this man will NEVER be yours completely. If you’re having sex with a married man, or sleeping with a guy that has a girlfriend, sure he has feelings for you during the sex. Yes, he has feelings for you in the heat of the moment, but if he hasn’t left his wife, children, and home, he isn’t going to.

It doesn’t matter what he promises. I don’t care how many trips he takes you on, or rings that he buys you. It’s all talk. So many women fall for the fairytale idea that somehow he’s going to leave his family behind, and ride off into the sunset with you. He has a wife, he has children, and he has commitments. All that’s happening is he’s not getting what he needs at home, so you’re giving it to him instead. He spends time with you, and then goes home to play Daddy. He loves his kids. His wife isn’t giving him what he needs. He has the best of both worlds... .

It’s always the same promises, and these women are deep into this thing. Some emails have come from women who have been “involved” with these men for months, sometimes even years. He’s not going to leave his girlfriend. He’s not going to leave his wife.

I suppose she needs more love, support, and reassurance than 1 person can give her. But I am tired if the constant threat of "there is man right up the road who loves me"... .
I love her, and I gave her every ounce of myself a man could give... .just wasn't enough.

Once', its a lot more complicated than this. It will take a while to sort that out. When people start a relationship long distance (vs relationships that become long distance because of circumstances), there is a reason. Both you and her had a reason.

When a love triangle forms, there are also dynamics on all sides that accept it. We've talked a bit about her reason. There is your reason, too. You have known for some time and you have been far more connected to the fantasy than the reality. There is a reason. In time, you need to uncover this.

What can you do now to make this better? Realistically, very little. You can profess your love and take your punishment for being a "bad boy" and the relationship will swing to him until they hit another bump. You can walk away and she will possibly swing in your direction for a while until he pulls on her, and she shifts back. My point is that this is a tug-o-war with no win. Both men are unhappy with the triangle - but accept it. She sees both men as insufficient (a partial stool) and can may try to pick one, but the imbalance that started this will inevitably resurface.

The hard truth, and this is one learned by many women, is that when the wife (or girlfriend) on the other end of the triangle exits - often the affair partner (you) is dropped after the wife (or girlfriend) has been grieved. The center of the love triangle is more likely to seek a complete stool, because its more exciting and because it is hard to recruit men to be in a triangle.

In the stool analogy, there is no solution because each relationship is too weak to stand on its own.

[Oncebitten]

What do I do?   Walk away from the woman I love?  A woman I am certain loves me.  I agree with your earlier post, not all of this is related to BPD... I simply viewed the recent event her reading this post as a BPD issue.  Its as if all of this just happened.   None of what she told me or said to me was new.  All the things the ow wrote she is aware of, all the things she said to me are the same accusations, the same names... etc.   I am at a loss... .does she, did she really love me... .is forgiveness impossible?  I dont bring up what she did, and that man still exists in her life... .I am reminded of him frequently.  And yet I have forgiven and moved on.  

[Skip]

If you agree with me - do you see that these relationship (both men) can only fail. It's just a matter of time. This is a very common dynamic - it's more often married man and single women, but the dynamic is the same.

Do you accept that partial stool theory. Neither relationship can stand on its own. No matter how much she loves that leg (or two legs), she could be crazy about them, but no relationship can stand on two of three legs.

Go to the Detaching board and find our members who are in affairs and see how they reason about their wife and their affair partner. You can go there and see the other side of this. There are many cases where the wife or the affair partner left the triangle and the remaining relationship was abandoned for failed shortly there after.

That's exactly why I have stayed.  The abuse is far less painful than being cut off or out.

You could accept what she has been offering you... .to be a friend. Agree with her. Tell her she is right. Edit the pain. I would insist on an agreement that there will be no more talk about your relationship with her, or her relationship with him, or your relationship with others (re-establish your values and boundaries).

You have been trying to convince her to do something else, and you can get her to bit the bait, but you never catch the fish.

Frankly, this is also the best move to make to recover the relationship - but honestly -  you have to think really hard about the stool and whether you think you can beat the odds.

"Friend" is less painful than the drama of being cut off or out. It stops the fighting. It gives you space to sort through this and normalize your emotions. It also let's water rise to its level. It accepts the reality - it abandons the fantasy.

I know it will hurt - a lot - but it is a stepping stone to a more sane life rather than jumping off a cliff.

We all will walk with you on this. It certainly won't be the last chapter in this book.

[Oncebitten]

I really cant do anything, she still has my # blocked and I have no other way of reaching her, short of driving there.  And I am tired of driving just to get her in front of me so we can talk.  

Just got a text from her, essentially I am dead to her, and I should go back to the trash I associate with.  I really dont understand why its like it just happened.  This "r/s" with the ow was over 8 months ago... .I haven't had any contact with her in 5, and the last time I contacted her was to tell her to leave my gf alone bc she was posting stuff about her. I have proven time and time again that I have no desire to be in any contact with the OW... .is this just something she can never get past?

Perhaps my question should be "what is wrong with me?"   after everything she has said and done I still want her... .WHY?

[Oncebitten]

I realize that this probably qualifies as a rant at this point but writing the absurdity of it does make  me feel better and give some clairty.  In a 2.5 hr time span without speaking to one another, we went from being in love and planning a future to being over... .and nothing new was revealed.

Just sad really... .she left over something that happened over 8 months ago... .something that she knows about... .not a new revelation... .left over old news bc she was reminded of it

[Skip]

If a brick wall with faulty cement mortar topples when the wind picks up to 5 mph, was the cause of the collapse the wind?  Would stopping the wind that day, make it a better wall?  

[Oncebitten]

excellent point... .Can't fix what I didn't break

[Oncebitten]

Skip

I guess what really upsets me is the whole scenario... .I spent months trying to work through this with her... .I know you and others are aware of that.  And now its all come back to ruin US once again and I am not even privy to what was written.  
Its like being convicted of a crime and not being allowed to see the evidence.

I have often thought about writing her a letter... .an apology for what happened last summer and an expression of my feelings

[Meili]

I really cant do anything, she still has my # blocked and I have no other way of reaching her, short of driving there.  

hhmmm... .I don't know that I agree with this comment.

First, there is a lot you can do. First and foremost, you can stop playing her game and stop allowing yourself to be abused. Define and maintain your boundaries.

You can mail her a letter saying that you agree with her that a lot of damage has been done and that the friendship part seems to work so the two of you should focus on that and let things play out as they will. Don't make it anything romantic. Don't send a card that is to elicit emotions.

No, I think that there are things that you can do if you choose to do them.

[Meili]

I have often thought about writing her a letter... .an apology for what happened last summer and an expression of my feelings

You've already apologized to her, haven't you? You've already told her exactly how you feel too, right?

Those things have not worked. There is no reason to keep doing them. If you want different results, you have to do things differently.

[Skip]

I have often thought about writing her a letter... .an apology for what happened last summer and an expression of my feelings

You made the point earlier that she started a fight over something silly and she slept with the other guy as revenge. Don't buy this. The most likely the reality is that she wanted to sleep with the other guy, and created the conflict to justify it in her own mind. Not accusing her of anything other than wanting the other guy and using dysfunctional coping skills. The point here is that the "something silly" was subterfuge.

My point - the love triangle (the defective mortar) is the issue - not what the girl said (the wind). Most likely that is what is going on here. The tug-o-war has shifted, once again, to the two legged stool.

You buying into these "something silly" arguments and apologizing and telling her how much you love her makes you look weak and of little value. Why? Because it looks like you have little value for yourself.

When you bought into the idea that your cyber affair during a breakup was worse than her sexual indiscretion during the relationship, you undermined yourself. Why? Because it looks like you have little value for yourself.

So sending her a self deprecating love note is only going to make matters worse for you - invite more  disrespectful behavior. Rule 1. Don't blame anyone for not respecting you, if you don't respect yourself.

You can mail her a letter saying that you agree with her that a lot of damage has been done and that the friendship part seems to work so the two of you should focus on that and let things play out as they will. Don't make it anything romantic. Don't send a card that is to elicit emotions.

Meili is right. Man up. Don't cower. Don't pout. Don't beg. Don't blow things up. Don't use bravado. Just be strong and confident.

Strength is something you need to see in yourself. It would be good for her to see it too.

Right now strength is not to be blown away by her subterfuge. Strength is to do what a strong man does when a women rejects him repeatedly. Back away with confidence.

OK. You said we should be friends. I respect that.But know that I will always love and cherish you, even though you are telling me the other guy is a better man, and I will be happy with whatever mood you are in that day. Love   Oncebitten

[Meili]

Many times in the past, OB, you've written about how much she likes it when you show strength. That falls in line with what Skip said.

What you wrote here is the opposite of that:

I told her not too, I tried to get her to stay on the phone with me.  Tried to reason with her about what she was doing.  Reminded her of our plans for the future. Reminded her that this new post was not new, not new info anyways. 

[Oncebitten]

Meili

I agree, being weak accomplishes nothing.  I know you have been here with me almost since the day I showed up here.  I think you would agree that I have done everything BUT show that strength by stepping back from her.  She has grown entirely to comfortable with raging at me, blocking me, saying hateful things, making threats of all sorts... and still have me chase after her.


She actually text me a little bit ago some nonsense about changing her #... .I told her if she had something to say she could call.  She did, and we talked briefly... .she was angry at first but much softer not more than 3 mins later.  So she has taken the block off already... .

I assume you advise I just leave her be until she reaches out ?

[Meili]

I assume you advise I just leave her be until she reaches out ?

Well, yeah. 

Seriously though, OB, she has told you and you have seen from her actions that being strong works. As you know, you have to be the emotionally strong one in all of this. Go back and re-read What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship. Give serious consideration to the part that says:

• Maintaining routine and structure
• Setting and maintain boundaries
• Being empathetic, building trust, even in difficult times
• Don’t tolerate abusive treatment, threats and ultimatums
• In crisis, stay calm, don’t get defensive, don't take it personally
• Don’t protect them from natural consequences of their actions - let them fail

You've done the opposite of those things over and over and achieved the same results each time. I'm not trying to criticize how you've been trying to do things. I'm trying to help you see a different way and support you.

It appears that you gather some strength, you take a step or two back, she comes to you and idealizes you, and you cave... .going right back to prior behaviors.

I know what that's like. I've lived it. I would cower down before my x and grovel at her feet in hopes of showing her how much I loved her. "The more you suffer, the more it shows you really care" was the way that I looked at things. I couldn't have been more wrong.

All that I showed her was that she didn't have to respect me because I didn't respect myself.

[Oncebitten]

Don’t protect them from natural consequences of their actions - let them fail

yeah haven't done that at all... .its tough bc she always makes me feel like if I don't try then she is out the door... .I guess she gets something out of me chasing after her.  

Don't let her know I am hurting?

Last question... .what do I do about this OW nonsense? 

Counter intuitive I guess... .walk away and hope she follows

[Oncebitten]

Ended up talking last night and she made me aware of the post that was upsetting her.   I validated her feelings after I read it which helped greatly.  She still wants me to address it... .I told her I would.

[heartandwhole]

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