reliving events led to back spasms

[Our abuse recovery guide]

The storage on my phone was almost full, because of photos and videos.

In my experience, as they age, the borderline traits escalate.  About 4 years ago I started recording some of my interactions with ubpd mom.  This has almost filled up my phone storage, which of course is a problem.  H has the same problem.  He has different recordings - but just as many since he does more "tasks" for her since I returned to work out of retirement (to escape her).

Today was the day my H and I went through our phones.  I catalogued my interactions with the date, the duration of the videorecording, and brief notes about the conversation.

After 3 hours, my back started going into spasms.  After 5 hours I had to take medication.  We didn't finish this task until 10 hours had passed.

I couldn't face putting this task aside, to have to return to it, even as my back muscles were prompting me to stop.  Listening to these interactions was - a lot.

1) I could not believe how deftly and compassionately and professionally my H and I stick handled my mom, with only 1 exception.  We always remained calm and rational, despite whatever  she threw at us, with the 1 exception.  The conversations we had with her - were exceptional in content, and compassion.  We can feel good about that.

2) Her waifiness is beyond the pale.  Listening to all her "poor me" pity parties, crying, attention seeking, childish and manipulative behaviors in one dose was - enlightening.  In the day to day functioning it's a steady drip- drip- drip that we have to navigate.  But this task was eye opening because all of a sudden I could see all the patterns - objectively. She's  !

3) If finally hit me that her treatment of me has been so bad, that it's just crazy that I should carry any guilt she projects onto me.  The last few years have been a LOT of work to differentiate from her feelings. When I landed on this site, I was FOGed nearly to death.  While I've got a long way to go still, I am a lot stronger than I was then.

4) I feel good about the spine I'm developing.  I'm learning to stand up for myself and respond to her twisting and nonsensical behavior with clarity and confidence.  I'm not a doormat.  I can talk to her more objectively like I would with any person.

But this back of mine.  The spasms, and the pain!  My H could not believe that they started 3 hours into this task.  It's been over a year, maybe two since I had an issue.  This came out of nowhere, except for listening to these videorecordings.

I was able to finish getting through all the recordings of her and successfully moved them off my phone into storage.  That gave me 20 GB of phone storage back.  H was a little less.

An important lesson H and I learned from this task is how well we treat mom.  Too well.  Sometimes it's enabling. I observed to my H : "I coddle her!!" As H says, we walk on eggshells and overdo the support and empathy to talk her off of every cliff.  And avoid the rages.

Should we just let her fall more?

Where's the limit?  What about our mental health?

Anybody else have experiences where they are able to suspect or connect physical symptoms to stress and trauma? 

I have spent the last 3 hours babying my back with long epsom soaks, geennttlllee stretches, heat, gentle massage ball work, and trying to tell those muscles it's ok - they are safe.  But they're not having it. None of it.  They are angry and pis_ _d!

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to go to work tomorrow.  When they spasm (always bilaterally), I heave a loud involuntary grunt of pain and can't breathe until it lets go.  Anybody know what I'm talking about?

[Methuen]

The storage on my phone was almost full, because of photos and videos.

In my experience, as they age, the borderline traits escalate.  About 4 years ago I started recording some of my interactions with ubpd mom.  This has almost filled up my phone storage, which of course is a problem.  H has the same problem.  He has different recordings - but just as many since he does more "tasks" for her since I returned to work out of retirement (to escape her).

Today was the day my H and I went through our phones.  I catalogued my interactions with the date, the duration of the videorecording, and brief notes about the conversation.

After 3 hours, my back started going into spasms.  After 5 hours I had to take medication.  We didn't finish this task until 10 hours had passed.

I couldn't face putting this task aside, to have to return to it, even as my back muscles were prompting me to stop.  Listening to these interactions was - a lot.

1) I could not believe how deftly and compassionately and professionally my H and I stick handled my mom, with only 1 exception.  We always remained calm and rational, despite whatever  she threw at us, with the 1 exception.  The conversations we had with her - were exceptional in content, and compassion.  We can feel good about that.

2) Her waifiness is beyond the pale.  Listening to all her "poor me" pity parties, crying, attention seeking, childish and manipulative behaviors in one dose was - enlightening.  In the day to day functioning it's a steady drip- drip- drip that we have to navigate.  But this task was eye opening because all of a sudden I could see all the patterns - objectively. She's  !

3) If finally hit me that her treatment of me has been so bad, that it's just crazy that I should carry any guilt she projects onto me.  The last few years have been a LOT of work to differentiate from her feelings. When I landed on this site, I was FOGed nearly to death.  While I've got a long way to go still, I am a lot stronger than I was then.

4) I feel good about the spine I'm developing.  I'm learning to stand up for myself and respond to her twisting and nonsensical behavior with clarity and confidence.  I'm not a doormat.  I can talk to her more objectively like I would with any person.

But this back of mine.  The spasms, and the pain!  My H could not believe that they started 3 hours into this task.  It's been over a year, maybe two since I had an issue.  This came out of nowhere, except for listening to these videorecordings.

I was able to finish getting through all the recordings of her and successfully moved them off my phone into storage.  That gave me 20 GB of phone storage back.  H was a little less.

An important lesson H and I learned from this task is how well we treat mom.  Too well.  Sometimes it's enabling. I observed to my H : "I coddle her!!" As H says, we walk on eggshells and overdo the support and empathy to talk her off of every cliff.  And avoid the rages.

Should we just let her fall more?

Where's the limit?  What about our mental health?

Anybody else have experiences where they are able to suspect or connect physical symptoms to stress and trauma? 

I have spent the last 3 hours babying my back with long epsom soaks, geennttlllee stretches, heat, gentle massage ball work, and trying to tell those muscles it's ok - they are safe.  But they're not having it. None of it.  They are angry and pis_ _d!

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to go to work tomorrow.  When they spasm (always bilaterally), I heave a loud involuntary grunt of pain and can't breathe until it lets go.  Anybody know what I'm talking about?

[Notwendy]

That had to be difficult - going through all these memories on your phone and reliving them. While you may not have been as conscious of the feelings, I think your muscles were clenched up during this time, and now your back is complaining to you.

I think as children growing up in this situation, we learn to not pay attention to our feelings, but even so, we are "on guard" emotionally and physically around the BPD parent when we don't feel emotionally safe.

Yes, I have noticed signs of stress when I am visiting BPD mother. That's what prompted me to feel the need for boundaries. I think I could compartmentalize feelings but when I came home from one visit to my parents- feeling awful- this scared me.

BPD mother's emotional needs are constant. She doesn't have limits on what she wants or expects. I had to have them and whatever I they are, she wouldn't be content- and in actuality- she's not content- no matter what. When you ask- where's the limit? It's difficult because there's no mutual concern- there's no limit on her part. So you have to be the one to decide on your limit and along with this - know she will be discontented with it. As much as we want to be a "good daughter" it may be that it's not possible to have the boundaries we need and our mother's understanding of that.

This is similar to the rope story. Metaphorically, you and your H have been holding that rope and now, your muscles are sore. Can you continue to pull on that rope?

What has helped me is to know that, by loosening up on that rope, BPD mother has a "soft landing". Physically, it has been in her best interest to be in assisted living. Her care needs are best met there. Emotionally it's not helped her BPD but it wasn't helping her BPD to be at home either. Relationship wise- she isn't pleased with me, but she wasn't pleased with me even when she was in her own home. I didn't completely walk away from the "rope". I assist in some of her tasks from a distance- behind the scenes. She may not even be aware of some of them. If she wants to think her daughter "isn't helping her at all"- I can't change that.

Methuen- there may be a time where your mother's needs exceed your ability to meet them. You may have to be the one to decide when that is- and also likely she will see you as the "bad daughter" when you do. It may also be that what she wants isn't in her best interest, and she may not be happy with any arrangement.

My BPD mother was recently in skilled nursing/rehab after a fall. This is the same place she was in a while back where they brought up the option for her to stay there and she complained that her "family was dumping her in a nursing home" and refused to stay. So this time, when they approached me about a long term stay for her- I told them they needed to work it out with her.

Although she said she wanted to go back to her assisted living, once she was back, she realized the care was better in the nursing home. While she was there- she didn't want to stay. Now that she's back at assisted living, she's doesn't think the care is adequate either but for her to be back at assisted living, she had to have a nurse assessment to determine if her care needs could be met. So whatever she thinks- she's not the deciding factor. I know her care needs are being met.

One thing to consider is this- where is the best place for your mother to get her care needs met, not what she wants or thinks. You know that without you and your H's services- she would not be able to stay in her home. But if you slack off that rope, she isn't going to fall in the water- she will soft land in a facility that can meet her care needs. She may not be happy, she may not like it, but it may be what she needs and also what you and your H need.

[kells76]

Oh wow, ten hours of reliving that kind of interaction... difficult to even think about 

I have heard of other members here getting back spasms when interacting with their pwBPD, so you aren't alone -- it sounds not uncommon.

Interestingly, those other members also discussed "growing a spine".

After 3 hours, my back started going into spasms.  After 5 hours I had to take medication.  We didn't finish this task until 10 hours had passed.

I couldn't face putting this task aside, to have to return to it, even as my back muscles were prompting me to stop.  Listening to these interactions was - a lot.

4) I feel good about the spine I'm developing.  I'm learning to stand up for myself and respond to her twisting and nonsensical behavior with clarity and confidence.  I'm not a doormat.  I can talk to her more objectively like I would with any person.

But this back of mine.  The spasms, and the pain!  My H could not believe that they started 3 hours into this task.  It's been over a year, maybe two since I had an issue.  This came out of nowhere, except for listening to these videorecordings.

Anybody else have experiences where they are able to suspect or connect physical symptoms to stress and trauma? 

I have spent the last 3 hours babying my back with long epsom soaks, geennttlllee stretches, heat, gentle massage ball work, and trying to tell those muscles it's ok - they are safe.  But they're not having it. None of it.  They are angry and pis_ _d!

Have you heard of the book "Waking The Tiger" by Peter Levine?

I wonder if the backlog (no pun intended) of "No!" responses that you didn't have in the past, are all coming forward now -- like you're catching up on all the late "No!"s, as it were. Physical trauma responses, when not felt in the moment, and delayed, can come back later (if I'm remembering Levine's idea correctly).

It seems like not just coincidence that you're growing a spine (figuratively) and feeling your back (literally) at the same time.

[zachira]

How brave you are to go back and listen to those recordings. Certainly you are reliving the traumas to a certain extent yet by noticing how you feel emotionally and physically, you are becoming more and more differentiated from your mother. For many of us, becoming differentiated and healed, means reliving our traumas by processing them both emotionally and physically, until we gradually start to feel better and better over time as the traumas rent less space in our minds and bodies.

I can't imagine how angry and jealous your mother must feel, when you continue to be the kind caring patient person that you are, nothing like the person she tried to groom you to be. What has helped me tremendously, is to realize I could never lower myself to behave as badly as my disordered relatives and their enablers. I am nice to them when stuck in their presence on rare occasions while continuing to distance myself. I don't think I will ever stop caring about the people who have harmed me so much, as I am not the kind of person who wants to deliberately hurt people. So it does seem to be very much who you are when you care about your mother while not feeling her emotions for her or enabling her disordered behaviors.

[Methuen]

Methuen- there may be a time where your mother's needs exceed your ability to meet them. You may have to be the one to decide when that is- and also likely she will see you as the "bad daughter" when you do. It may also be that what she wants isn't in her best interest, and she may not be happy with any arrangement.

One thing to consider is this- where is the best place for your mother to get her care needs met, not what she wants or thinks. You know that without you and your H's services- she would not be able to stay in her home. But if you slack off that rope, she isn't going to fall in the water- she will soft land in a facility that can meet her care needs. She may not be happy, she may not like it, but it may be what she needs and also what you and your H need.

I think we are well past the point where mother's needs exceed our ability to meet them.  After listening to those phone recordings for 10 hours, I was so done.

Usually on the weekend, I'll touch bases with her for a quick visit, or at least phone her.  After reliving those recordings last weekend, I couldn't do either.  And what I learned from that, is that like "Chicken Little", the sky did not fall.  At least not this time.  But as we all know, it eventually does, and that is what brings us all to this board.

Where I live, there are no options for assisted living, because there are years long waiting lists.  So the next time she has a fall or a stroke or some other event and ends up in hospital, the plan is to not pick her up to bring her home as that punishes us and commits us to this unsustainable "caregiving".  And her needs are intense.  So effectively, that will be letting go of the rope and the "system" will have to deal with her and solve the problem, which will hopefully push her to the top of the waiting list.  It's horrible.

[Methuen]

Interestingly, the day after my back spasms (which was a 10 hr day of listening to recordings of her and cataloguing them before storing them externally and deleting them from my phone), I went to work and had no more back spasms.

So interesting, really.

[Notwendy]

Where I live, there are no options for assisted living, because there are years long waiting lists.  So the next time she has a fall or a stroke or some other event and ends up in hospital, the plan is to not pick her up to bring her home as that punishes us and commits us to this unsustainable "caregiving".  And her needs are intense.  So effectively, that will be letting go of the rope and the "system" will have to deal with her and solve the problem, which will hopefully push her to the top of the waiting list.  It's horrible.

That is similar to skilled nursing here. Assisted living is private pay and voluntary and lower hands on care than skilled nursing. It's more like an apartment community for older people who need some level of assistance- like with meals or transportation. They have social activities. There are levels of care. Someone could be at level 1 and go up to level 4 and higher if needed. There is memory care for people who qualify.  The entry to a Medicaid covered skilled nursing has wait lists- often people get a bed after a hospitalization and needing one.

With BPD mother, her emotional needs are better met at skilled nursing but she refuses to go because she would have to room share there and she has her own room at assisted living.

Physically, she can manage at the assisted living so she's allowed to stay there. But the supervision is less- because presumably- the people in assisted living are reasonably behaved. She's difficult for the staff to manage there. There really is no place that fits her complex needs. She's had episodes that look like dementia but then she snaps back to normal. We don't know if it's a medication reaction, or she's dissociated but she doesn't have dementia. But the level of supervision in memory care would fit her better- she doesn't qualify.

She's been at skilled nursing after hospitalizations and we wonder if this is the time she will stay at one. However, she so far has managed to recover and as long as the assisted living is able to take her back, she returns there.

One of my friends has an elderly father in a nursing home by the route of being in the hospital. He's NPD. He had divorced her mother and was living with a girlfriend in her house.  He was ready for discharge and she broke up with him and refused to let him go back to her house. He had nowhere to go.. So he was placed in a Medicaid covered nursing home bed.

I don't see this as letting go of the rope. Her father needs a certain level of nursing care. She can't do it ( she works, she's not willing to do it, she's not a nurse). Her mother is elderly herself and they are divorced. He's now in a place that meets his needs. Medicaid covers the basics but no extras. She visits him, brings him snacks, and any extras he might need.

If your mother was in a nursing home, you'd do the same. I think you'd be willing to visit and bring her things like snacks or toileteries, once you are free to choose to do it willingly.

Will your mother be pleased? Probably not. My friend's father isn't. He's mean and demanding. If she brings him snacks, he complains they aren't enough. She does it anyway, because she chooses to. I don't think my BPD mother is pleased with what people do for her either. The difference is- if your mother's basic needs are being taken care of- you will be visiting and doing things for her out of choice more than FOG.

[Notwendy]

Glad your back feels better. What I think may have happened is that you were clenching your muscles from stress when going through those messages on the phone- and afterwards they were complaining.

At work, you feel safe- and so were able to relax.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I’m with Notwendy, clenching your body when reviewing toxic material, especially when in an awkward position—like hovering over a device—can easily lead to soreness or spasms. I think that’s your body telling you to take a break.

When I’m tense or focused, I tend to clench my jaw, which can make my teeth and neck sore. I often catch myself doing this, and I have to consciously relax my muscles. In addition, as I’ve gotten older, I just can’t sit still comfortably as long as I used to, such as in an office setting or on a plane. You might try taking little breaks to move, stretch or get a drink of water. That helps me to feel a little better. Daily stretching can help, too.  I bought a yoga mat and watched some videos online to learn simple stretches. They can really help. I’ve significantly reduced the neck pain and increased mobility with stretching.

Another issue for me is my eyes. Reading gets harder each year, and I sometimes adopt an awkward position to read on screens. That’s usually a sign I need to change my lens prescription! 

[Methuen]

NW, So interesting to hear your explanation.  That sheds more light.

Where I am, we have hospital care, and home care.   Home care includes services like wound care, post surgical care ( after released from hospital), and services for the elderly in their homes. For the elderly, we also have assisted living which is exactly as you described, and long term care which is perhaps more like your skilled nursing.

Thanks for saying that hypothetically, not bringing her home from hospital is “not letting go of the rope”.  I was effectively putting myself in the blame position, which is what my mother would/will do.  Hypothetically, when the event happens that puts her in hospital, you are right that she needs nursing and we are not nurses. 

It’s a paradigm shift.

When it happens and we refuse to take her home, she will explode. When we don’t do what she wants which is take her home, she will feel abandoned and be screaming all kinds of things including that we don’t love her. And she’ll be telling everyone in the vicinity that.  I suppose it is her interpretation that I would be letting go of the rope.

But I can differentiate and see it as her needing nursing, and us being unable to provide the level of care she needs.

Thank you for pointing out that distinction. Very helpful.  I didn’t even realize I was taking on her thinking there.

 

[Methuen]

CC,
You are absolutely accurate in pointing out I should have taken more breaks.

Truthfully I was shocked when the spasms started.  I didn’t even know that my muscles were tensing up. Once the muscles started spasming/letting go, instead of focusing on that, I focused on the task to push through it and get it behind me. I’m goal oriented to a fault. In fact I kind of ignored the muscle thing hoping it would go away, and pushed through the aweful task to get some storage space back on my phone. 

What I failed to do was acknowledge what was happening, and didn’t take time to take care of myself until the task was done, which ended up taking 10 hours.  A bit much for my muscles, and although I did take a few breaks, clearly I didn’t take enough. I also suspect that my breathing was affected - maybe more shallow?  When my back muscles spasm in this way, it’s as if all the air is pushed out of my lungs and I can’t breathe, until the spasm ends.  My massage therapist yesterday suggested I try something called alternate nose breathing.I have to research that.  Anybody here have any experience with that?

I have learned some things from this experience.

[CC43]

Hi Methuen,

By chance, have you ever thought that you might be having a heart attack?  Maybe your breathing was constricted, with pain in your chest area?

That has happened to me a couple of times.  I thought, there's no way I could be having a heart attack--my blood pressure and blood panels are normal.  Eventually I figured out it was tension, partly from stress, and partly from "pushing through" with work on screens, sitting still for an extended period.  Then I Googled the phenomenon and discovered that it's a fairly common problem.  People will go to the emergency room thinking they're having a heart attack, and they were merely looking at a screen (or sitting at an ill-suited desk) for far too long.

Now I'm not suggesting one can trivialize signs of a heart attack.  But the tension can definitely build up, especially if you're focusing on a task, and not on what your body is telling you.

I can already feel the tension building today, because I'm working on a task like yours--going through old records to declutter--and also because the pwBPD in my life is showing signs of destabilization.  After a long "vacation", she started a more intensive schedule two weeks ago, and I'm sure she doesn't like the added responsibilities and stress.  My husband is supposed to see her later today, and we are both preparing ourselves for bad news.  I'm just hoping that she doesn't give up (one of her usual coping strategies), and that she can find her way to handle some adult stresses for once, rather than continue to rely on us to finance everything and rescue her constantly.  She might try to dredge up old, highly distorted stories of past abuses to deflect, and I hope my husband can steer her away from that negative thinking spiral, and keep her focused on the now, staying on track with her life and daily routine, akin to the "talking her off the cliff" that you mentioned.  It just seems so baffling to me that pwBPD have so much trouble pushing through routine or unpleasant tasks because their negative emotions take over so easily.  It's like the slightest breeze or friction can topple them over, and they can't handle doing any work, and yet they expect others to work doubly hard to bail them out or rescue them, which ends up being a futile and thankless task most of the time.  Argh!

[GaGrl]

Perhaps you have a new mantra for the next time your mother is hospitalized...

"She needs skilled nursing, and we are not nurses."

My mother lived in our retirement house for over five years after my dad died -- the last 2.5 with us having retired and moved into the house full-time. Even though she had several BPD traits, she was vastly better than disordered, and we did well together for the most part.

Many people say a bad fall is the beginning of the end, and that was our case. Mom fell, and her journey was emergency, hospital, release to skilled nursing facility for rehab, return to hospital, return to skilled nursing, release to us for home health care, progression to home hospice care. All of this was during Covid.

It was horrible.

I could not have done home health and home hospice by myself. As it was, I had help from a family friend who is a CNA and had care for my parents for 10+ years. Had Mom been full-fledged BPD, neither of us could have done it. Nor should I have tried. Without our CNA friend, I would not have known nor been able to wash her, clean her, deal with nighttime hallucinations, know how to keep her meals balanced and nutricious. I could always do medications, but hospice meds are an entirely new experience (morphine sulfate?!).

So yes..."She needs skilled nursing, and I am not a nurse."

[Notwendy]

I don't think it's letting go of the rope when assisted living is the best way for the person to get the care they need.

There is no way my mother could have stayed in her own home on her own. Her care needs were increasing. Due to her behavior with people trying to assist her- she's better cared for by professionals. Several nurses and caregivers have refused to work with her. If she's that much of a challenge for professionals, family would not be effective or appropriate as caregivers.

Your mother may be angry and make accusations. BPD mother has said things like "her family is dumping her in a nursing home" and she was "forced out of her house". She may accuse you of "letting go of the rope" but you will have to hold on to your reality.

You know you won't do that entirely- you will still visit and be helping to manage her affairs even if she's in assisted living/nursing facility. You will still show up with a meal or something nice for her- on your own terms, once her basic needs are met.

[Methuen]

Have you heard of the book "Waking The Tiger" by Peter Levine?

I wonder if the backlog (no pun intended) of "No!" responses that you didn't have in the past, are all coming forward now -- like you're catching up on all the late "No!"s, as it were. Physical trauma responses, when not felt in the moment, and delayed, can come back later (if I'm remembering Levine's idea correctly).

It seems like not just coincidence that you're growing a spine (figuratively) and feeling your back (literally) at the same time.

I don’t know this book. I have to look into this more. It sounds like an interesting book, and it could fit that my lack of “No’s” to my mom have been stored in my body, and listening to those dialogues triggered some latent trauma response.  The timing sure fits. Does he talk about how to get the trauma released the body?  I think this is something I would like to pursue.   So thank you for the book suggestion.

[Methuen]

.  It just seems so baffling to me that pwBPD have so much trouble pushing through routine or unpleasant tasks because their negative emotions take over so easily.  It's like the slightest breeze or friction can topple them over, and they can't handle doing any work, and yet they expect others to work doubly hard to bail them out or rescue them, which ends up being a futile and thankless task most of the time.  Argh!

Yes and if we don’t rescue them they feel abandoned and scream at us we don’t love them.

I haven’t yet had the experience of feeling like I’m having a heart attack.  I hope I can avoid that one as I have plenty of other issues.  But the heads up may yet be helpful.

I hope things went ok with your H’s visit to the bpd in your life..

[Methuen]

Perhaps you have a new mantra for the next time your mother is hospitalized...

"She needs skilled nursing, and we are not nurses."

My mother lived in our retirement house for over five years after my dad died -- the last 2.5 with us having retired and moved into the house full-time. Even though she had several BPD traits, she was vastly better than disordered, and we did well together for the most part.

Many people say a bad fall is the beginning of the end, and that was our case. Mom fell, and her journey was emergency, hospital, release to skilled nursing facility for rehab, return to hospital, return to skilled nursing, release to us for home health care, progression to home hospice care. All of this was during Covid.

It was horrible.

I could not have done home health and home hospice by myself. As it was, I had help from a family friend who is a CNA and had care for my parents for 10+ years. Had Mom been full-fledged BPD, neither of us could have done it. Nor should I have tried. Without our CNA friend, I would not have known nor been able to wash her, clean her, deal with nighttime hallucinations, know how to keep her meals balanced and nutricious. I could always do medications, but hospice meds are an entirely new experience (morphine sulfate?!).

So yes..."She needs skilled nursing, and I am not a nurse."

This sounds like too much.  I could not survive with my mom under my roof for a few days much less indeterminately.  Couldn’t. Do. It.

I struggle so much after a 1 hour visit.

As for the mantra- yes!  I have used it on mom mamy times and for many years, but I have not yet used it with emerg docs.  Good point!  For next time!

Every time mom complains about some medical thing to me I remind her I am not a doctor.  But she doesn’t want to tell her doctor these things.  I finally had to learn boundaries because I used to just be kind and listen and make suggestions and try to help.  Waste of time of course!   So now my mantra with her is to tell her doctor these things.  But of course she keeps telling me and H.  She isn’t going to change. So I just keep telling her to tell her doc.  It’s just exhauand frustrating

[LovelyName]

Hi Methuen,

I can relate deeply to your pain and frustration with your mother.

Maybe it would be helpful to you to let go of the hope that she will change. I don‘t know about your faith but Jesus let go of hope before he died on the cross. Letting go of hope might be your chance for freedom.

Take care,
LN

[Notwendy]

Every time mom complains about some medical thing to me I remind her I am not a doctor.  But she doesn’t want to tell her doctor these things.  I finally had to learn boundaries because I used to just be kind and listen and make suggestions and try to help.  Waste of time of course!   So now my mantra with her is to tell her doctor these things.  But of course she keeps telling me and H.  She isn’t going to change. So I just keep telling her to tell her doc.  It’s just exhauand frustrating

My mother does this too. This is an emotional need- she's even said she calls me so she can feel better. Unfortunately, she's narrowed her world. The assisted living center has activities but she's not interested in them. So she's mostly hyperfocused on her feelings and needs.

When she's offered a solution to her medical problems- she doesn't comply with it and then wonders why her providers get frustrated with her. She recently was in skilled nursing/rehab after a fall for physical therapy but then would refuse to get out of her bed and cooperate. So she got discharged back to her assisted living and then was saying nobody is coming to take care of her.

I used to offer suggestions but I also now say "talk to the NP when they come to visit" or "call the doctor". And she will then say yes but then have a reason not to. Her need to be in control prevails.

We experienced this when she was still in her house. Her car was in the shop. She needed help to pick it up. We were there visiting -and said "we can take you to get it and help drive it back" and asked her to call the shop to see if it was ready. She refused to make the call. It seemed crazy- this would be the easiest way to get the car but she kept refusing- saying she'd get someone else to help her later. So we pushed the issue- the car was ready and we went to get it for her.

Other times, I have offered suggestions and she feels invalidated and gets angry.

I think she wants someone to listen to her, and also attempt to help her, but then her need for control also results in her needing to control the solution. When she calls me, I decide if I am in the right mindset to just listen to whatever she has to say. She will talk about her medical concerns and even though my reply is to talk to the nurse- she knows that. There are nurses right there. I don't think she wants a suggestion. Sometimes I don't take the calls if I am busy or not available to listen.

[Methuen]

Every time mom complains about some medical thing to me I remind her I am not a doctor.  But she doesn’t want to tell her doctor these things.  I finally had to learn boundaries because I used to just be kind and listen and make suggestions and try to help.  Waste of time of course!   So now my mantra with her is to tell her doctor these things.  But of course she keeps telling me and H.  She isn’t going to change. So I just keep telling her to tell her doc.

My mother does this too. This is an emotional need- she's even said she calls me so she can feel better.

My mother tells me this too! When I tell her again to tell her Dr about her new symptom, she can reply with "but I feel better when I tell you".  Geeze Louise!  I am just sick sick sick of it.  It is just messed up.  They don't just dump their rage on us, but they have to also dump their feelings of ill health on us to purge themselves to feel better.  It's dark and twisted. Period.  I am done with being her repository for that stuff.

When she's offered a solution to her medical problems- she doesn't comply with it and then wonders why her providers get frustrated with her. She recently was in skilled nursing/rehab after a fall for physical therapy but then would refuse to get out of her bed and cooperate. So she got discharged back to her assisted living and then was saying nobody is coming to take care of her.

Exactly.  Our mothers are like cookies all cut out with the same cutter.  I remember Zachira's mom refused to follow instructions and keep her leg up, at the risk of losing a leg!  And my mom cancelled home care coming to put drops in her eyes to prevent blindness after an endophthalmitis infection, and has since played the victim and complained about going blind!  If it's not self-sabotage, perhaps it's ODD?  My mom refutes any suggestion from anyone that could help her. She even refuted that she had Parkinson's disease and therefore refused the medication to help stop the shaking!  She's like the two year old that says "NO!" to everything.  I agree it's also about being in control.  But it seems to me that a sane person would choose to follow their docs advice if it meant keeping a leg or their vision (or whatever your mom was in hospital for).

We experienced this when she was still in her house. Her car was in the shop. She needed help to pick it up. We were there visiting -and said "we can take you to get it and help drive it back" and asked her to call the shop to see if it was ready. She refused to make the call. It seemed crazy- this would be the easiest way to get the car but she kept refusing- saying she'd get someone else to help her later. So we pushed the issue- the car was ready and we went to get it for her.

My H and I have learned to adjust our expectations.  If this had been my mom and she refused to make the call, we would have said "okay" and left it at that.  And let her get someone else to help her later which is what she said she wanted.  I'm a believer in natural consequences.  For her it would be a "win", and they needto win.    And we don't have to go get her car for her (less "doing" for us).  At first when we disengaged from these conflicts (and let her have it her way which included losing her eyesight), it felt like "tough love" and mean.  But it's not.  It's letting them have the autonomy to make their own bad decisions. It gives them the power and control they need.  It's like the poem you quoted about the hole in the road.  We have to learn the fifth chapter in that poem -> to take a new road! But it just sucks to witness our mother's making decisions that hurt themselves...so frustrating, and such a helpless feeling, but better than the alternative of falling in the same hole over and over and over again.

It's no wonder we all struggle with neck and back problems, digestive issues, heart issues, vertigo, inflammation of all kinds...much of it a result of stored stress and trauma.

Like you, I also decide when I am ok to meet/talk with mom.  If I am not up to her shenanigan games, I don't respond to messages, or go visit.  I have even blocked her.  Sometimes it's just too much.  Too much. 

Recently, mom showed us a piece of mail she had received from her church.  It was a letter of gratitude for the generous donation she made, and how her "willingness to give so generously is a true testament to her love for God and the church".

Sigh. 

[Notwendy]

 My H and I have learned to adjust our expectations.  If this had been my mom and she refused to make the call, we would have said "okay" and left it at that.  And let her get someone else to help her later which is what she said she wanted.  I'm a believer in natural consequences. 

Recently, mom showed us a piece of mail she had received from her church.  It was a letter of gratitude for the generous donation she made, and how her "willingness to give so generously is a true testament to her love for God and the church".

Sigh. 

Yes, I agree and I would do that now- let her figure out the car issue. At the time, we were still feeling FOG when we'd visit.

Yes, those moments of "is this my mother?" when we see/hear a complement about her.  I called her doctor's office the other day and one of the nurses in his office asked about her "your mother is so sweet". BPD mother's public persona is different than with people who have more contact with her.

It seems that their BPD affects the closest relationships the most, so people who are aquaintances have different experiences with our BPD mothers.

[Methuen]

Yes, I agree and I would do that now- let her figure out the car issue. At the time, we were still feeling FOG when we'd visit.

So true!  It was sssoooooo hard to learn to let them do things their way - even if its a terrible choice and they suffer for it.  To us it feels like it’s unkind or unhelpful.  And that’s not who we are, and goes against our values. But in their (distorted) view of the world, we are either demanding (by asking your mom to call to see if the car is ready) or controlling (home care coming into her house to dispense her eye drops so she doesn’t go blind), and there is something about their perception of demand/control which triggers their Bpd behavior.

Yes, those moments of "is this my mother?" when we see/hear a complement about her.  I called her doctor's office the other day and one of the nurses in his office asked about her "your mother is so sweet". BPD mother's public persona is different than with people who have more contact with her.

I have got this too from her home care workers and home care coordinators - the comment about “how sweet she is”.  Have you yet stated your truth in response to that comment?  I have not.  My T coaches H and I to say something like “My mother is a complex person. I’m happy to hear she is sweet to you, but that is not the experience of the people she is closest to.” 

It seems that their BPD affects the closest relationships the most, so people who are aquaintances have different experiences with our BPD mothers.

This is when it feels like they have a touch of multiple personality disorder- but it’s invisible to everyone in the world except us. 

[Notwendy]

I have got this too from her home care workers and home care coordinators - the comment about “how sweet she is”.  Have you yet stated your truth in response to that comment?  I have not.  My T coaches H and I to say something like “My mother is a complex person. I’m happy to hear she is sweet to you, but that is not the experience of the people she is closest to.” 
This is when it feels like they have a touch of multiple personality disorder- but it’s invisible to everyone in the world except us. 

I tried to be more open about this when my father was ill. I spoke to their family doctor out of concern for him. I don't think the doctor believed me then (he is more aware now I think). It was an unspoken but understood family rule that you don't reveal BPD mother's issues to anyone. The doctor spoke to my father about what I said and I received an email for my father telling me to not do that.

I also reached out to her FOO, who, at the time, were flying monkeys. What I saw as a please help email was completely misunderstood. They said it was a horrible email and forwarded to each other, commenting on that. Someone clicked "reply all". I was shocked that they thought these things about me.

I stoped saying anything about her to anyone. I didn't see the point in trying to speak to anyone in her circle. I was pretty much LC, NC with all of them.

Some time later, Dad was gone, FOO wasn't speaking to me, and someone in my 12 step group encouraged me to speak my truth about her. Sometime later, her FOO began to notice and ask me, and I just told them. I didn't feel I had anything to risk by telling them. The relationship seemed gone anyway- so I did.

They eventually believed me but only after they have seen it for themselves. So while I don't hide truth if directly asked, I also don't volunteer it if it isn't going to be helpful to her or to me. The health care providers who work most closely with her have experienced her behavior- and so already know. Sometimes she tells a new nurse to not speak to me and I don't hear from them. If someone is exclusively in her circle- I keep a distance. I don't even want to share more than a cordial reply.  After the experiences with my father and her FOO I don't think I could feel secure about a relationship with anyone in her circle.