Determined she won’t sabotage my new job…

[thankful person]

I started a new job a few weeks ago and I love it. Nearly 30 years in the workforce, always struggling to get along with people, to fit in, to be accepted. I feel like I have finally found my people. This is a secret I am refusing to tell my wife about, I just tell her, my job is ok, as in I’d take it or leave it.

Today I broke through some barriers and I told the two other people in the management team that my wife has bpd. They are so friendly and supportive and I know it’s not a professional topic of conversation but they are interested and keep asking me about myself and everything about me and they seem to care. One of them also has a volatile relationship with her bf. Anyway this felt like somewhat of an achievement. I have been with my wife for ten years. And until today the only person who knew of my wife’s bpd diagnosis was my mother. And that was only in my attempts to coach my mother in bpd damage limitation (which didn’t work at all but anyway…)

My wife is somehow in control of whether I keep this job. This sounds ridiculous. Except that I am out of the house from 6.45am to 6.30pm four days of the week and I also work the other 3 days. And we have four small children age 5 down to newborn. And while I’m working my wife has to often take all four children walking up a massive hill to get to school. She is coping very well. But the agreement was that if she wasn’t I would quit the job. And if she feels I’m making friends at work then I’m worried she will demand that she’s not coping. And I think she’ll know I’m making friends because I’m not going on about any problems I’m having with the other staff.

A couple of days ago she threatened that she wanted me to quit because that’s what she would do the moment I treated her like sh1t apparently. Yes I did snap at her because she was bullying me into cancelling a different job to go and get school books with her. I did cancel in the end but I said I felt bullied into it and screamed at her that she is scared of studying which is true but was a cruel accusation at she has had a very poor education and is low in confidence. I just have to be more perfect, working 55 hours a week. But. Never. Snappy.

Don’t worry about my working hours. It is temporary and far less stressful than being at home (so far).

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

Glad you are holding on to the job!

The "I will quit if it's too much for you" is not really a boundary for you.  It puts the control of whether you keep your job or not into your wife's hands. She gets to decide if it's "too much" or not.

It may help you to revise this idea. The job isn't optional. Someone has to support the family. That person is you. Your wife's feelings about it may vary but "feeling it's too much" may be less of a problem than not paying the mortgage, or not having food.

I think it would also help to keep your happiness over the job to yourself. If your wife asks about it you can say "it's keeping food on the table and a roof over our heads".

One idea too is to reinforce your wife's coping. Now that there's some income- you can think of ways to positively reinforce this- compliment her, maybe a small gift at intervals, or a family outing.

[thankful person]

Thanks for your support and advice Not Wendy. I have been thinking lots about what you originally said, that the potential problems I listed are problems that will be, whether I try to appease my wife or not. I need to stop trying to chase each glorious possibility that doing what she wants might make her happy (I know she will never be happy). Well we don’t exactly have money because we are in the process of buying a static caravan where we can take the kids for holidays and weekends Although it is a stretch financially, I think it will be a positive thing hopefully for our marriage, for the kids growing up (they are so excited!), and for my wife’s mental health (please can someone there talk to her and be her friend???) So, we have signed all the paperwork but there is a two week period where we can pull out with no obligation. We have one week until we pick up the keys. One minute my wife will be excited about it, the next saying she will cancel the whole thing because my job is making me into a horrible person etc etc and it’s not worth it.Yesterday morning my wife got up five minutes before I had to leave for work and was angry I didn’t talk to her. Of course, I asked how she was feeling and she said, “FINE!!!” But I should have found the time to make her coffee (a question she doesn’t like to be asked about when she’s just got up and is very busy), And I should have TALKED to her, as in some kind of random conversation other than which kids have had breakfast and who needs to do their teeth etc. Anyway my wife then said, “I don’t think I want you doing this job, I’m not getting any support from you” etc etc. And I told her that I don’t want to leave my job. It hasn’t been mentioned again. But if we can get through the next week and pick up our caravan keys then I definitely need a full time job to pay for it, and I really want to keep this job. I realised why I love it. Us three in the office up there… we are all caretakers.

[Notwendy]

Well, as you know- money is numbers. There's money in and there's money out. When money out exceeds money in- there's a problem.

You control the "money in" part, and you also have a certain control over the "money out" part but it's complicated due to your wife's emotional approach to her wants. You can't control her feelings.

But there's another part that is yours. For some reason, given the chance to be the one to make your wife happy ( maybe a false hope or maybe a temporary happiness), your logic is suspended, and this seems irresistable.

I saw this with my father. He just couldn't say no to her- on two parts. One was not wanting to deal with her angry rages, but the other is that, when she was in a good mood, he was just smitten. It's like she had some kind of spell on him.

Work though was a sanctuary for him. I think this contributed a lot to his feelings of well being. The fact that you have a job you like is a big help to you, both financially and emotionally. Keep that to yourself.

[GaGrl]

Meaningful and rewarding work is so beneficial to one's self-esteem and self-confidence. You need to hold on to this -- it keeps you healthy!!

[thankful person]

Thank you not Wendy and gagrl,

I think we have somehow negotiated a compromise. My contract work teaching piano at a school is sadly ending in July. The money was good but paid termly in advance and only 32 weeks of the year. Numbers of students dropped by more than 50% since last year and that’s why I’ve been struggling. My private teaching I have dropped down by choice because I can now only manage 1-2 hours a day after school due to needing to help with kids bedtimes. The money was good when I worked all evening doing this, and weekends. It’s no longer working for us as a young family, especially with my wife always being angry about the erratic nature of my work with people cancelling and my trying to fit them in where I can.

So my wife has wanted me to quit piano teaching for years. And much as I love it, I now feel I am ready to. So the plan is I work five days a week at the nursery. And have the WEEKENDS OFF    My wife can stop being angry about me working evenings and weekends. She will know my predictable working schedule. We will have consistent income. We can go to the caravan at weekends. I get to see my kids more. So hopefully everyone will be happier. My wife is also happy with me doing a job that is partly office based because I have more time to text her during the day.

I am in control here. It wasn’t actually my idea to quit the piano lessons. But it’s a good idea.

[Notwendy]

All this sounds great- but one warning "My wife will stop being angry about working nights and weekends"  is still (wishful) thinking that she will now be happy because it assumes that by an action on your part- this somehow will have the "power" to influence her feelings.

We do not have any power over anyone else's feelings. She may not feel angry over weekend/evening work but her feelings are hers.

I do agree that a regular schedule is more manageable with a family and being home during evenings and weekends is a plus.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, of course you are absolutely right. And my wife will always be potentially angry when I leave the house for work, no matter any situation surrounding it like the fact that we need the money. I learnt this eternal optimism from my mother who was always trying to get things just right for my father. I expect you recognise the same attitude your father had, that he could always try something a bit differently and could only hope your mother might be a bit happier.

I get up at 6am and spend 40 minutes getting ready and getting all the dogs sorted and our four kids ready. It is the most busy 40 mins of the day. Then my wife gets up just before I have to leave. It’s wrong if I ask how she’s doing, it’s wrong if I converse about my morning, it’s wrong if I offer her coffee, it’s wrong if I don’t, and it’s certainly wrong if I say nothing to her. So that’s the most stressful 5 minutes of my day. Any thoughts? She is up caring for our baby at all hours so I don’t begrudge her the extra sleep and she is having to get up an hour earlier due to my new job. I’d rather have my busy morning doing everything than try to get her to share the morning jobs. But just wondering if you have any advice for handling those stressful 5 minutes before I have to leave, or the awkward phone conversation in the car two minutes later, where I seriously have nothing to say? She has also taken to phoning me during my lunch break, my colleagues don’t mind but again it’s just so she can rant about whatever’s going on that day, it’s mildly irritating but seems a part of caretaking I can’t let go of while she’s at home with baby and kids and dogs with not much else going on in her life. Similarly she rings me as soon as I finish work and is on the phone all the way home, my phone rings through the car radio so I can’t say I didn’t hear it.

[Notwendy]

I wish I had some advice to change things- but I've also come to accept that there's going to be difficult moments and to not feel as reactive to them.

One is- BPD mother gets angriest on the day we have to leave during visits. We now anticipate this. Maybe it's because we are leaving and that is difficult- and this is how she expresses it. This may correspond to you leaving for work. It's just how it is- your wife knows you are leaving for the day, and this is how her feelings are expressed.

It's OK if you don't have words during the ride. Just let your wife know you are listening.

My BPD mother calls me to vent. These are "feeling" phone calls. She needs to vent the feelings. She doesn't want advice- she wants to be heard. It's OK if I don't say much- she wants to talk.

So when your wife calls you during lunch and right after work- these are venting phone calls. She wants to be heard so just listen. If it takes too long, gently remind her that you have a work meeting or class to go to, or something- but that you hear her and care about her feelings and will see her after work.

Don't emotionally react to the content of what she says. These are feelings being vented. The words are just that.

[thankful person]

Thank you not Wendy. I don’t react emotionally like I used to. She was very moody the other day during the lunch time call and eventually she explained that she’d wanted to go on her treadmill with baby in sling and he just kept crying. I had been  convinced her bad mood was somehow my fault, but these days I tend to pause and process and never ask if it’s about me because then she will start screaming about how I think everything is about me and it’s not!

Next challenge is I have agreed to attend a work first aid course on Saturday and I’ve cancelled work for it. I told my wife about it weeks ago but she’s just realised it means she won’t get to go to her slimming world group on Saturday morning. So I at first said, “Go! I don’t mind if I have to be ten minutes late, but I will have to leave as soon as you get in.” Of course, she didn’t like that as she doesn’t want me to leave as soon as she gets in. Eventually I agreed not to go on the course. I know that was a dumb thing to do. But it’s never a good time to discuss it so I feel I have to wait until the last minute to see if I can go to it. I hate feeling bullied like this. But sometimes it’s just my agreement she wants I just need to try and validate without giving in to her.

[Notwendy]

It takes practice. Keep in mind that in the moment, her feelings- her wants are priority to her. But for the overall well being of everyone in the family- needs take priority. Your job is essential and a work meeting takes priority over her slimming class.

In the moment, reasoning doesn't work. Offering a solution- go, I'll be late" doesn't address the feelings. I think you are correct- she wants validation of her feelings, she wants agreement that her feelings are the most important.  (but so is eating and paying the mortgage and buying diapers and there's no money for that class without your job)

"yes, honey, I understand you are feeling upset about missing the class. I'd much rather be here so you can go, but I am required to attend this" may be all that is needed.

[ForeverDad]

My wife is somehow in control of whether I keep this job... But the agreement was that if she wasn’t coping I would quit the job.

Boundaries are so important.  One feature about Boundaries when in a BPD trait relationship is that you can't risk weakening a boundary or else it will be challenged again and again.  One term often mentioned is that inconsistent and weak boundaries invite "extinction bursts" where the other will continue fighting against a new or weakened boundary in expectation it will collapse.

You shouldn't risk weakening your work or other boundaries based on whether she decides to 'cope' or not.  Besides this work being a positive for you, you need the income, as the others have stated.

[thankful person]

Thanks not Wendy and forever dad,

Idk how or why but it appears my wife is somehow respecting my boundaries despite the fact that I said something stupid in a weakened state (that I wouldn’t attend the training). This morning she was talking to our kids about the weekend, and she said, “Mama has to go to work on Saturday”, and then this morning she made the effort to attend a different slimming group with three of our kids instead of the usual Saturday group. So I’m not sure what she’s playing at. But just maybe her confidence is growing with the new routines and she’s starting to be more ok with me being out for long hours. I won’t quit this job anyway. I would need a replacement job because self employment isn’t working for me at this time. And I don’t see any reason I’d change jobs because I can’t earn any more money or work less hours so I just want to stay in this job which I’m enjoying. My wife was even looking at my work WhatsApp chat and she saw I’d contributed and I expected all hell to break loose but she barely reacted, very odd.

[Anonymous22]

The one thing that I would just be aware of, is a rage, complete meltdown, etc. Friday night or Saturday right before you leave.  My uBPDh has done this numerous times.  He will say over and over, that I need to work more.  I work at a hospital, I have picked up extra shifts which he would say he was happy about at first, but would create complete chaos the night before letting all hell break lose, making it so that I wouldn't feel like it was safe to leave the kids home alone with him (and my kids would be begging me to stay home) so I would have to call out.  When picking up extra shifts wasn't working out because of his outbursts every time I was scheduled to work, I decided to pick up a PRN job at a different hospital where I would know my schedule at least a month in advance.  He did the freak out the night before my first shift, but I decided that I had to go to work and literally FaceTimed my daughter the entire time I was able to and made sure that all was safe at home before I hung up the phone.  Since that time, the rages turned to snide comments about all of the coworkers that I was apparently having an affair with each time I was about to walk out the door, but I continue to go to work when I am scheduled and the snide comments have lessened.  I agree, that you need to go to work no matter what, even if your wife rages. 

[thankful person]

Thank you anonymous 22,

Yes there goes the eternal optimism again with me assuming I’ll be able to walk out the door like a normal person on Saturday morning. On numerous occasions I have had to deal with bpd meltdown whilst leaving for work, and in the past I have cancelled work because of it, with her accusing me of work being more important than our marriage etc. which puts me in a position where I feel bullied into proving my dedication lies to her not work, as well as sometimes being concerned that I can’t leave the kids with her like that. The most recent time this happened was a couple of weeks ago, she had got in touch with an old college tutor wanting to start online lessons with her, so she insisted we needed to rush out and get school books that day as we never have any time together (true atm). So we did. But since doing so she has not even been in touch with the tutor. This makes me look bad and unreliable to my students, as well as us missing out on valuable funds which could help pay for things. I also used to get the constant affair accusations. When she was looking at my phone last night she noticed I had been calling the other management people while I was in charge (for work purposes) and again she said very little but I’m sure she is storing this up for ammunition along with my participation in the work chat. I have never tried to enforce a boundary about her looking at my phone. I would rather she comes to terms with the fact I have other people in my life, rather than keeping things from her.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi TP,

I am really concerned that your wife has access to your phone and feels free to go through it. One of the first and most important boundaries that I put into place when I made my "declaration of independence" 19 months ago and said that I would tolerate no more abuse was that my electronics were 100% off-limits to my wife. Why was this so important? In short, it is because of confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is a disordered way of thinking in which we only see evidence that confirms what we already believe to be true.

For example, if my wife thinks that I am having an affair and goes through my phone she WILL find evidence that I am having an affair. It does not matter that 99.9% of the evidence points to me not having an affair, the 0.01% of the evidence that I am (say making an innocent joke in a text to a work colleague) will obscure the 99.9% of the evidence that I am not. "Who is this woman and why are you joking with her?!?!?" would be my wife's response. It does not matter that if you looked at the entire text exchange it was 99.9% about work, that one tiny human interaction of making a joke confirms what my wife already "knew" which is that I am having an affair.

Think of this another way. Here in the US, it is not legal for the police to follow you indefinitely. They have to either pull you over or be on their way. Why is this? It is because if they follow you long enough, you are very likely to commit some minor infraction that will cause them to pull you over. It is also likely that the pressure of constantly checking your review mirror and feeling the panic of having the police on your tail will contribute to you making an error in your driving. It is entrapment. If the police believe that you are doing something wrong, they will eventually find a reason to pull you over. It is confirmation bias.

Your wife going through your phone is like having a policeman constantly tailing you. Are you doing anything criminal? No, but just like all of us you are human. There will be times when you go a few miles an hour above or below the speed limit or forget to use your turn signal when changing lanes. You shouldn't have to live in constant fear that you will be pulled over for these innocent things that are a part of all normal driving.

Going through someone's electronics is also indicative of a complete lack of trust and respect for another human being's privacy. I know that my wife does not trust me, she never has. However, I will not allow her to go through my things because she does not trust me. When I allowed her to do that, it did not build trust, it just gave her more excuses to accuse me of infidelity (confirmation bias). Heck, at one point I even willingly installed a GPS tracker on my phone because I thought it would stop her paranoia about me cheating. Nope, it just made it worse. When I would be in a building without a clear phone signal (mall, grocery store, etc.) the GPS signal would go offline for a few minutes. That 10 minutes I was shopping at the local grocery store...having an affair! My point is that no amount of appeasement was ever enough, and actually made things worse. There were also legal ramifications that I had to consider about her getting into my electronics.

In my case, as a teacher, I have information on minor students (grades, behavior reports, etc.) that is stored on my electronics. Having my wife snooping through these things is technically a violation of the Federal Education Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) and could get me fired and both of us possibly criminally prosecuted. I am not aware of laws governing information about minors in the UK, but I imagine that there is something on the books that limits access to that information to people who "need to know" (teachers, counselors, etc.). As a piano teacher, your wife accessing electronics with information about your minor students stored on them could constitute a legal threat to you both.

I would strongly encourage you to password-protect your phone and computer and cut your wife's access off. Explain to her that it is due to legal concerns about work-related materials stored on your devices. Buckle down and prepare for the extinction burst. It will subside eventually and then you will never have to fight that battle again. My wife's extinction burst over my phone/computers was not pleasant, but the fact that she no longer goes through my things is priceless. She will occasionally test the boundary and demand to see my phone, but I just tell her no and she drops it fast because she knows that I will not budge on it. Boundaries are no fun to place and enforce, but once they are established it makes all of the hell you go through putting them in place worth it. It is, in effect, carving yourself a small but ever-growing area of freedom and independence in your life. It is getting your life back, a boundary at a time.

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

I was going to mention phone privacy too. For many jobs, there is information that is confidential- possibly student grades, medical information, company information that is sensitive.

Truly, going through someone's phone is no guarantee. If someone wanted to cheat, they could find other ways to communicate.

I found it a bit creepy that my parents used the same email address and my BPD mother would listen in to my father's phone calls with me on the house phone extension. I think her concern with these calls is that we might be "talking about her" but we weren't.

I can understand not keeping big personal secrets from a spouse but if a spouse wants to have a private conversation with a work colleague, or family member, or friend and the topic has nothing to do with the other spouse- then it can be a boundary.

Maybe your wife can't handle this now but something to work towards.

[thankful person]

Well, she won. I don’t know why I feel such a failure when I know I’m fighting a losing battle. So my wife did her weight loss injection Friday afternoon. Tbf there is no good time for her to do this with the ensuing side effects. This morning the day of my training… she was predictably feeling very unwell. Of course I offered to stay home, she told me to go to my course. Then when I got there she kept texting about how I’m so unsupportive and I said, “look i have to go but ring me if you need me to come home.” And she rings immediately. And I felt totally bullied but said I’d come back and help with the kids. Of course she still wasn’t pleased because I’d failed the test which was to stay home without her asking me to.

Later on that day I got a text from my wonderful new work friend, who had some idea that I was upset and stuff was going down and she said, “I hope you’re ok, I’m here if you need me.” And I almost laughed out loud to think how triggering this would be to my wife, to know that someone cares about me, someone with pink hair, and despite the fact that it’s my wife who’s ill and says she has no support from me or anyone ever. Sadly I’ve told my friend that her friendship means so much to me but please don’t send me such nice messages as they will upset my wife.

So the problem is that my relationship with my wife started as an online emotional affair which was long distance and started off on our phones saying things like, “I’m here if you need me.” Ah yes the other problem was that I was still in my previous relationship then. So that’s why she doesn’t trust me.

Also, I’ve said before that despite the mantra, “stop caretaking…” if we stop caretaking entirely then our bpd relationship cannot survive. That’s why we’re all here learning about validating and not jadeing, because we can’t just behave as a normal person would, without filtering our every thought… I think hurt and tired that you last said you’re getting divorced? I respect your feelings fully and I’m sorry if this is how it’s worked out for you but I truly hope you will be happier. You are right that I should have better boundaries around my phone, so that I can have friendships, and also for work confidentiality. I’m genuinely not sure if my marriage can survive that though.

[Notwendy]

Also, I’ve said before that despite the mantra, “stop caretaking…” if we stop caretaking entirely then our bpd relationship cannot survive. T

Maybe, but to what extent isn't known. I also think the fear that it won't survive plays a part in the leaning to caretaking. Look at how well your wife has adapted to child care duties compared to a while back. Maybe not perfectly, but better.

It's good that you have supportive friends at work. I think it will help to keep in mind that if you have friends at work and keep your boundaries of marriage- you are not doing anything wrong, that your wife could read more into any communications. Try to hold on to your reality if she does.

[thankful person]

Absolutely, it is a balance. I have been on this journey for over four years now, at the beginning you may remember me getting very excited, “wait what??!?! I can just behave like a “normal” person and bpdw will just have to deal with it?!?” It was a wonderful yet terrifying time and I soon learnt that it wasn’t to be exactly like that… because if it was then it would add to the grand statistics of pwbpd not staying in relationships very long… because that’s what happens if they don’t succeed in finding or creating a caretaker.

I no longer usually delete messages off my phone because usually I feel that despite the lack of phone boundary it’s good that she sees the messages. But this was no, “hope your weekend is going well” type message. There would have been hell to pay off w saw it. Because I had broken the number one rule of the narcissistic family system, which is that you never let an outsider in on knowing about your disordered spouse or anything unhealthy about the way the family runs - much like when my daughter made a joke to some mums and kids about my wife kicking the snowman because it was falling over… she didn’t mention my wife being angry or upset, but made it into a joke which is socially acceptable (even though it’s a bit odd imho). If I was getting a message from my friend yesterday, it should have been, “Hope your wife is ok”. Because ostensibly the reason I left was because w was sick, not because of any reason that would warrant the offer, “I’m here if you need me”. W also would have been particularly angry because as we agreed it’s best I don’t say how much I love these work people, so it would be odd that this girl cares so much to say such a thing. In the past I would have either responded to the text, “I’m fine”, not responded, or even got aggressive with, “it’s none of your business please don’t text me.” I have blocked good friends in the past because of my wife. I’m not doing that again. So now I’m in this strange situation where my wife thinks I’m keeping her bpd a secret but actually I’m keeping it secret from her that these people know more about her behaviour and treatment of me than anyone else I’ve ever known.

[Notwendy]

Because I had broken the number one rule of the narcissistic family system, which is that you never let an outsider in on knowing about your disordered spouse or anything unhealthy about the way the family runs -

There is hell to pay in my family for saying anything like that too.

I am glad you at least are feeling you can act a bit more normal.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi TP,

I'm sorry that you are going through all of this again. You are right. I have made the decision to wind things down with my relationship, but I still need to get through the next 12 to 15 months before I am financially in a position to do that. During that time I have to continue to make things work at home. It is not easy, but I have made things livable through boundaries. If I am being honest, things are more peaceful in my home now than they were a few years ago and all of that is due to the boundaries that I have put in place.

Let me be clear, my marriage is not failing because of my boundaries, my marriage is, and has been for years, failing because my wife has severe and untreated BPD. I have just finally gotten to the point where I can see that no matter what I do things will never get any better than they are now. The only person who could make things better than they are now is my wife. She would have to admit that she has a problem, get into treatment, and do the hard work to get better for things to improve past the point that they have. I have done all that I can do from my 50% of the relationship and have reached the limit of what I have the power to change. Any further change would have to come from my wife's 50% of the relationship and that is very unlikely to happen. If, by some miracle, she has a moment of clarity and starts turning things around from her side, I would still be open to continuing to work on our marriage.

As I see it, you have several advantages over my marriage. Your wife accepts her diagnosis and has been in treatment before. That is light years ahead of where we are at. Also, if I remember correctly, your wife doesn't subject you to DV. While emotional and verbal abuse are terrible things and just as real a threat to your health and well-being as DV, they at least do not make you fear for your life as I sometimes do. I really think that boundaries could improve your marriage by leaps and bounds, even though they are very hard to do. Caretaking is not the answer. The only peace I have been able to find is through boundaries. Caretaking just made things worse while boundaries have made my life livable again.

My personal situation has dramatically improved. I have friends again. I have a life outside the home. My wife no longer snoops through my things and fears raising a hand against me physically. Our son witnesses fewer rage outbursts from my wife and when they do happen, I physically remove myself and him from the home until she calms down again. Again, this is not perfect. Things can and do still get very unpleasant, but my wife is no longer in control of me, our home, or our son. I have regained my independence. It is from this perspective of having agency and independence that I was able to see clearly that the relationship had improved as much as it was ever going to without my wife's cooperation in making it better.

Boundaries did not drive a stake through the heart of my marriage. They saved me. It makes me sad to say that I am indeed preparing to end the marriage, but that is a long-overdue realization of the reality of the relationship, not the result of my boundaries pushing the marriage over the edge.

I hope and pray that boundaries can give you the space that you need to be happy as an individual, and not have your happiness dependent on your wife's mood. In this state of increased happiness, perhaps you can be the leader in your marriage and provide an example for the children of what a mentally and emotionally stable adult looks like, and more importantly, how to stand up to being bullied in a relationship. One of my major concerns in my marriage is that I was giving my son a very bad example of how a man should allow a woman to treat him. I do not ever want to have him get into an abusive relationship as an adult, so I have to provide an example of how to say "No, I will not be treated like this. I deserve to be talked to and treated with respect." I was never able to manage the courage to place and enforce boundaries when it was just me who was suffering, but once my son came along I found the strength to do it for his sake. You have four precious children that need you to do the same. I will be praying for you and your family and am always here to talk to you if you need me. You can also DM me if you ever want to ask for advice or just want to vent. You have been a great help to me over the past few years and I want to be able to return the favor any way I can.

Rooting for you,

HurtAndTired

[thankful person]

Hurt and tired,

Thank you for clarifying and sharing where you’re at. And wishing you all the best on this continuing journey. My wife is fully in denial that she has bpd symptoms. If she ever mentions it she says she considers herself cured. However, she does mention things sometimes that say otherwise for self-awareness. My wife is a clear cut case of child sexual abuse. She does not seem to remember specifically what happened. But there are also huge chunks of her memories missing from childhood. And she does say she is disturbed by it. She has learning difficulties which I believe are fully down to trauma. Like she dissociated all the time at school and learnt nothing. It’s very sad. Sometimes she says things along the lines that maybe therapy could help, but she doesnt want to do it.

She did used to be violent towards me. She seems to have stopped soon after having our first child, during her first year. But was threatening to physically throw me out of the house and did try, about 1.5 years ago. She was threatened by my insistence that I wanted my mother to visit or at least see the kids. I do try so hard to be a good role model for them and I am much much better than I would have been if it weren’t for bpd family.

I understand now about the fear of abandonment. My wife is threatened by anything I turn my attention to. Work has always been an issue because it is a commitment and whilst she wants me earning more, she doesn’t want me to have any commitments other than her. So she is jealous of our kids, anyone in my family, students, families I work with, colleagues, and any way I choose to spend my time. The other day I got in and she was telling me about something. She had just handed me our 3 mth old baby. As she was talking to me I had him sat on my knee facing me, and whilst acknowledging her, I was giving him big smiles quietly saying, “hellllloooo!!” And she snapped at me jealous that all my attention wasn’t on her.

I think if my wife had seen that message from my friend yesterday she would be first saying, “I want you to quit that job” which she says most days anyway. But she would probably also be saying, “I want you to quit your job and if you don’t I want you gone. You don’t support me, this isn’t a marriage, you’re never here anyway…” etc.

In fact I still have the tirade of messages I got in the five minutes before my course started yesterday: any thoughts appreciated.

Her: you can’t even support me with anything it’s all about work all the time. You even have to get off the phone instead of support me.

Me: Do u want me to come home now
It just means I will have to do it another day

Her: You don’t ever support me
I get absolutely nothing all the time, and I’m fed up with it and I always come last

Me: I’m sorry I have to go now but you can call me if u really need me home

Her: Exactly, you’ve made the choice to stay there even even though you know that I’m really poorly right now and you know that I don’t feel well but you’re not supporting me and you’re not even talking to me instead I just have to scream the house down which I’m doing right now cause I’m so much pain

I shouldn’t have to ask for you to come home. You should see that I’m not very well and you can see that I need some support so you should be there for me instead of me having to tell you…

What support am I even getting from last night from your little point about my eyesight and trauma related. You haven’t even spoken to me today.

I have been supporting you to do this job for the last month nearly and what support do I get return when I need support?

If you were going to treat me like this, then I want you to leave that job because I don’t want it. You can’t even support me ever when you have the opportunity. You don’t even do it.

The month is up and I’ve had nothing in return and I’ve had to deal with everything

Me: I’m on my way home

[Notwendy]

I've heard this kind of thing too- not as a spouse but statements on how I didn't do or did something that upset my BPD mother.

It's difficult to hear these messages.

It may help to keep in mind that a lot of what is said is projected emotions, put into words, and is more about her than you. They are also in the moment. She may have been OK with you going to the meeting the night before. By the morning- her feelings are different. This is her emotional difficulty.

First, recognize this is victim perspective. The "payoff" for being in victim perspective is that a victim isn't accountable. One doesn't blame the victim. Also, victim perspective is reinforced if you constantly try to prove that what she says isn't true.

Listen to the use of absolute words. You don't ever support her, she gets nothing- oh come on, you know that isn't really true.  "In the moment she may feel that way but you have to hold on to your own reality.

Validate the feeling, not the invalid.

If they say they are ill and in pain, that's a difficult one to navigate.

This is going to require boundaries. Your job is essential to the well being of your family. They have nothing if you don't go to work. No money for food, clothes, housing. I think pwBPD sense absolute boundaries. Your wife may have feelings about you going to work but I think at some level she understands it's an absolute need.

The problem with the meeting is that it wasn't an absolute boundary. It was a flexible one and she knew that too.

I think it's a "pick your battle" situation. Make the job a non negotiable boundary- the one you will absolutely hold the line with.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi TP,

I agree with Notwendy. There must be boundaries around work because it is a non-negotiable necessity for the well-being and survival of your family, your wife included. The exchange between you and your wife that you provided is very helpful in seeing exactly what you are dealing with. However, instead of doing an "instant replay review" of the exchange, I think it would be more helpful to talk about how this conversation could be avoided in the first place.

I think that you need to have a frank discussion with your wife using SET around work when she is feeling, relatively, stable. You can say something along the lines of:

"I have been thinking a lot about our family and how we can give the kids the best life possible. I want to tell you how much I appreciate all of the time and effort you put into taking such great care of the kids. I know that it isn't easy to do so, and while you aren't being paid for your work, it is invaluable to us as a family and I love and appreciate you for it.

I also know that you sometimes wish I could be here more often to help you and the kids. I wish I could be too. However, as much as I would like to be here with you all the time I have to work full-time so that we can afford to pay for the house, food, and other necessities. This isn't something that I want to do, it is something that I have to do. Because we all rely on my job to get by financially, I have to make sure that I don't get in trouble at work or do anything to endanger my job. Going forward, I need you to only call or text me at work if it is an absolute emergency. By emergency I mean that you or one of the children have to go to the hospital or the house is on fire, or something of that level of gravity. I have been told that I have to limit my personal calls and really need your help with this.

I have also been told that I need to keep all my electronic devices that are used for work password-protected and that no one besides me is allowed to access them due to the sensitive information that is on those devices. I know that these are difficult changes for us to go through, but it is something that we have to do to make sure that my job is not put at risk."

I am asking you to blame the change on work. That takes some of the pressure off of you. Let your boss be the bad guy/gal. You can act as frustrated about it as she is, but the end result is the same. No more harassment at work and no more snooping through your electronics. You can even say that your boss was not pleased with you having to leave training the other day and that you are worried about your job security over it. While this may be an exaggeration, is it really that much of an exaggeration? How many times can you leave a work-related event for a non-emergency without a manager getting fed up with it? How many personal texts and calls can you receive while at work before it becomes an issue?

Once you place those boundaries, you can ignore calls or texts while you are at work. It won't make her happy, but it is keeping true to what you told her. You are not allowed to do so. If it is something truly important, you can return a text or call while on a break or over lunch. Make sure you let her know that you are on a break or lunch and that your time is very limited. If the issue is not important, let it go.

Your wife will not like this. She WILL go through an extinction burst. It WILL be uncomfortable. However, on the other side of it is peace for you. On the other side of it is freedom and independence at work, and a modicum of personal privacy that all humans are due..even from spouses. You will have to be vigilant, and consistent. You must not waver or the situation will get even worse. Once you place the boundary, you must enforce it 100% of the time.

One last observation is that YOU have a right to have feelings of dissatisfaction and anger as well. So often when we caretake pwBPD their feelings become so important that there is no room for our own. Your wife is going to get upset when you place the boundary but aren't you upset right now? Why is her being upset more important than you being upset? She has you so afraid of making her upset that you are willingly letting her run roughshod over you.

PwBPD control through fear by emotional bullying. The only way to stop a bully is to stand up to them. While you love your wife, she has been bullying you. Only you have the power to stop that. You have the right to not be bullied. You have the right to be upset about being bullied. You have the right to stop the bullying.

Placing boundaries is how we stop the bullying. It is how I have gotten so much more control of my own life back. I see now that the power was mine all along, I was just too afraid to use it. Furthermore, by not standing up to my wife earlier I was tacitly approving the way she was treating me. Each time she hit me, screamed at me, isolated me, called me horrible names, or some other form of abuse and I did nothing, I was sending the message that this type of behavior is ok. Over time, it gave her permission to escalate the misbehavior and my life got worse and worse. Placing boundaries has walked back that permission and she now has the clear message that treating me in those ways is not only not ok, but that it has consequences.

Your boundaries can start small, and be around work. Once you are successful at that, you can start applying it to other areas of your life. What do you think about the idea of making work "the bad guy" and using that to place boundaries around contact at work, leaving work, and access to electronics?

HurtAndTired

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, and Hurt and Tired, thank you for your further thoughts and feedback. Yes I agree that my wife decided to bully me into leaving my course because she felt it was more achievable for her than getting me to actually miss a day’s work.

I do think that with my wife’s demand avoidant nature, framing this as work and the boss being the bad guys could backfire as she uses this as further ammunition for why I should quit.

My wife has now pulled out her strongest card yet. The breast feeding card. So bit of history. My wife has struggled with breast feeding with all four babies. Against all the odds, she is a breast feeding champion and has not given them food until six months and they have only had formula on occasion because she struggles to produce enough milk. Every time she has blamed me for the stress I put her through causing her breast feeding journey to end. But until now, she has managed to pull through. I do take this very seriously because she is a very dedicated mother and the time she spends with them all has led to them presenting as very emotionally secure, kind, helpful, friendly, confident etc. Whilst I don’t find the breast feeding essential to her motherhood success, she absolutely does. The problem is that if she is stressed, or busy then her milk production suffers. She is like a cat or dog where baby suckles for most of the day when she is relaxing. If she goes out for a few hours then milk production slows and threatens to stop. I fully believe that this could happen, even though I’ve believed it every time and it has not happened.our current baby is on lots of formula to try and get his weight up, so the breast feeding is under even more threat because of this.

So. The latest threat is that she will and does resent me for the job causing problems for her breast feeding and possibly ending it. The latest texts from the end of today included… “was the job worth it?” Because she’s had such a hard day with them all. I know that we need money especially now our caravan purchase has gone through. I need to support the family. I know that she will resent and blame me no matter what. But I do feel her pain and I know I am hurting her. Although this job is not the best money I could be earning, it is the only consistent 40hr/wk year round job I can get. And I want to keep my friends.

[ForeverDad]

I need to support the family. I know that she will resent and blame me no matter what. But I do feel her pain and I know I am hurting her.

You are NOT hurting her.  While the family's financial situation is not optimal, it isn't your fault.  With her perceptions so skewed toward her own self, family problems are perceived as your fault.

[dtkm]

My response to your W’s comment would have been “Yes, we were able to afford our mortgage, our electricity and food this month!”  I am a very devoted mom of 4, well 5 but one is my SD whom I am not around often. I nursed all 4 of my kids for 12 months, and while I am embarrassed to say it, my 4 year old still nurses to fall asleep. I agree with your wife, I would never have been ok not nursing my children. I was very lucky, in that nursing came relatively easily for me, except with my last child. I remember times when my supply got low, and it upset me greatly, as I did not want to give our daughter formula. Never did I blame my low supply on the stress from my H, I would have had good reason to, but first, it never occurred to me to do so and second, instead of blaming I used my energy to fix the problem…pump more, etc. Her low supply, is not your fault!  If it has anything to do with stress, it is the stress that she has created…I remember you mentioning in the past that she used to yell at you as she was nursing a child…that stress is coming from within her, it has nothing to do with you!  Nursing should be a calm bonding time with your baby, it’s where babies learn to bond.  I once had a therapist tell me every time my H starts in on me to in my head say…that is his issue, not mine…and walk away while I say out loud “the most loving thing I can do right now is walk away”. Her issues have to reside with her, she may never choose to “fix” them, but you can not pick them up for her. Being a mom of 4, I get how she feels exhausted 24/7 and sick of running around all day and never once getting to think of yourself…but the reality is she is lucky!  Most moms would love to be home with their kids, but most moms are not able to do so.  Your W is lucky, you work so she doesn’t have to. If she decided to pull the plug on the relationship, not only would she have to take care of 4 young kids all day 50ish% of the time, but she would also have to work some sort of job.  Has she thought about that!  She’s lucky !  It took me a long time for me to start to understand what I am going to suggest to you, but it has been the most freeing part of this journey for me with my H…and all of the work came from within me, cause that’s all I could change. My suggestion to you is to truly separate yourself from each of your W’s issues with you…you know who you are, you know your intentions, you know you love your wife with all of your heart and would never intentionally hurt her…let her issues stay with her…do NOT pick them up, do not take the blame, do not change your schedule, do not put your job at risk, live the life you want to live for your family, be the mom that you want to be for your kids and the wife you want to be for your wife…and know you only have good intentions, anything blamed on you is not yours to pick up and solve leave it for your wife to solve

[dtkm]

Take the text example you provided above…
Her:  you can’t even support me with anything it’s all about work all the time. You even have to get off the phone instead of support me.
Me:  (to myself…ugh this is totally hers to keep, I would much rather be at home with my kids right now but instead I have to provide for then…maybe we could go get ice cream after work) to her,,,.I hear you, I so wish I could be at home today, I miss you I miss the kids, but I need to keep my side of our promise, which is to support our family, want to go for ice cream when I get off?
Her: you don’t care about me, you only care about work blah blah blah
Me: (this is hers…don’t pick it up) to her…where do you want to get ice cream tonight? 
No anawer: I would turn to the kids “wanna get ice cream
when mom gets home from work?  Awesome…I love you guys so much, I can’t wait to pick you up to get ice cream.
Her:  see you don’t care about me, you just want to see the pink hair lady
Me: I love you guys, have a good day (I walk out to my car and don’t think twice about staying home, I think I wish I could stay home but I need to provide for my family)
Phone rings while I am driving to work: Me: Hi, I’m almost at work but would love to chat until I get there
Her: why can’t you talk to me all day, you don’t care, blah blah blah
Me: sorry baby, I am at work, I love you, can’t wait to get ice cream with you and the kids after work.
Her: text, text text
Me: ignore text until I truly have a break, not letting my mood get distracted, focusing100% on my job. When a break rolls around, “hi baby, sorry I just saw your (500

[thankful person]

Thank you forever dad and dtkm for these further insights. My wife is now talking about the future to include the fact that I will be working this job, so it seems that she is starting to accept what the future is looking like. It is particularly helpful to reflect on, “I am not hurting her” and “this is hers, I don’t have to pick it up” although she does get very angry if I ignore anything she says. And if she asks again if the job was worth it then thank you for the very obvious answer I was missing!