If someones actions are driven by mental illness are they "toxic" or "ill"?

[Amber London]

If someones actions are driven by their mental illness (assuming BPD is a mental illness) does that really make them "toxic", or are they just "ill"; or doesn't it matter?

To me it matters. I think my ex is ill and needs care and therapy, some of her behaviour is toxic, sure.

My uncle who was in constant physical pain before his death behaved in a toxic way too, but we figured it was down to his illness, so we forgave him for that.

[HoratioX]

If someones actions are driven by their mental illness (assuming BPD is a mental illness) does that really make them "toxic", or are they just "ill"; or doesn't it matter?

To me it matters. I think my ex is ill and needs care and therapy, some of her behaviour is toxic, sure.

My uncle who was in constant physical pain before his death behaved in a toxic way too, but we figured it was down to his illness, so we forgave him for that.

Toxic is toxic. The cause or motivation is not the issue. Whether someone throws acid in your face or accidentally spills it on your face, the result is the same -- you are getting burned.

That doesn't mean you can be sympathetic or compassionate. You can forgive someone. You can encourage them to get help.

But if you then keep getting acid thrown in your face, that's on you. You invited it back into your life, and you made it possible to happen.

When someone is healthy, they see reality for what it is. When someone is codependent, they keep making excuses to put themselves in harm's way.

[HoratioX]

Toxic is toxic. The cause or motivation is not the issue. Whether someone throws acid in your face or accidentally spills it on your face, the result is the same -- you are getting burned.

That doesn't mean you can be sympathetic or compassionate. You can forgive someone. You can encourage them to get help.

But if you then keep getting acid thrown in your face, that's on you. You invited it back into your life, and you made it possible to happen.

When someone is healthy, they see reality for what it is. When someone is codependent, they keep making excuses to put themselves in harm's way.

Sorry -- "can't be sympathetic . . ." Wish there was an edit function on this board.

[Amber London]

Sorry -- "can't be sympathetic . . ." Wish there was an edit function on this board.

It's not always about co-dependency. It can be about emotional maturity. If you're hurt, that's because you're allowing yourself to be hurt. Her actions are her business. Any woman pwBDP or otherwise is entitled to leave you any time she likes. If she goes, let her go, or are you her jailer?

My ex is my ex because she decided to be my ex. I have accepted that. I did not even try to persuade her otherwise. Why should I? If she wants me, I'm still here for now, but not on my knees. I have a lot of love and compassion for her, in particular because of her illnesses, and would like to see her happy, safe and well, with or without me. She is safe, but not happy or well.

[HoratioX]

It's not always about co-dependency. It can be about emotional maturity. If you're hurt, that's because you're allowing yourself to be hurt. Her actions are her business. Any woman pwBDP or otherwise is entitled to leave you any time she likes. If she goes, let her go, or are you her jailer?

My ex is my ex because she decided to be my ex. I have accepted that. I did not even try to persuade her otherwise. Why should I? If she wants me, I'm still here for now, but not on my knees. I have a lot of love and compassion for her, in particular because of her illnesses, and would like to see her happy, safe and well, with or without me. She is safe, but not happy or well.

I'm not sure I'm following/understanding your line of reasoning. It doesn't matter who leaves -- what matters is if the healthy person, knowing the turmoil the person with BPD, etc., causes, chooses to nonetheless be in a relationship with them. Maturity has nothing to do with that choice. Codependency does.

If you know someone's behavior is toxic to you and you choose to be with them, that's not normal. That's not healthy. Normal and healthy behavior is to avoid someone like that. Codependency is to want to be in a relationship with them, regardless of whether they make the move toward reconciliation or you do.

You might want to talk to a therapist about this further. There's absolutely nothing wrong with feeling sympathy or compassion for someone afflicted with a profound mental or emotional illness like BPD. But to choose to be in a relationship with them knowing the nature of that illness? That sounds like codependency.

[Notwendy]

Maybe it would help to look at the terms.

Toxic is relative to you, not the motive or reason of the other person. If you drank poison, it would be toxic, no matter what the "motive" of the poison. If it were accidental, or deliberate- the effect on you is the same.

People may use the term "that person is toxic" but that isn't about the person- it's how their behavior affect you. The behavior is toxic to you, the relationship is toxic to you.

We have the right to decide if a situation is not good for our own emotional well being. It's not about the other person.

BPD is a mental illness however, not all mental illnesses mean a person isn't legally competent. Most people with BPD remain legally competent- which means they are accountable for their decisions and behavior. If a person with BPD who is legally competent robbed a bank, they may go to jail like anyone else. A pwBPD has free will and can choose to break up with someone if they want to.

Yes, they need treatment but they also have the ability to consent to treatment or refuse it. The best anyone can do is offer it to them.

BPD is on a spectrum. Some people with BPD are relatively high functioning, some have other issues- such as addictions. Some are physically abusive. Each person decides how the relationship affects them. Is this toxic to you?

Forgiveness is separate. It's a decision we make, regardless of the other person or what they did. It may be easier to forgive the elderly uncle than the ex, due to the different relationships, but you can still decide- the relationship is toxic, not good for you, not something you want - even if you choose to forgive the ex,

[seekingtheway]

To answer your question as generally as possible, I think it's very important that there is compassion and understanding for those who suffer from any kind of trauma or disorder or disability. These are very tough things to live with that cause an untold amount of pain and distress for the person. The more we are able to de-personalise someone's behaviours and not make them about us, the better off we are.

But I think it's a grey area in terms of how close we are personally able to get to a person who does exhibit toxic behaviours. We are all human. None of us are impervious to abusive or hurtful behaviours in the long-term, and our own health and survival should be the top of the priority list. It's important to protect ourselves from behaviours that end up damaging us or requiring us to abandon our own needs just so the relationship can exist.

And sometimes, we - as the ex intimate partners - are the least likely to be effective in terms of helping and supporting a loved one with BPD. Romantic attachments are triggering to those with BPD. And relationships with ex's can be even more complicated. So our involvement in their healing journey may not be in their best interests either. Not to say it can never happen, but I think it would be very rare.

But in terms of whether someone with BPD is just labelled toxic and wiped hands of without compassion - no, I don't think this is the way forwards. Someone with BPD deserves a huge amount of compassion, care, support, therapy and love, but we just have to be realistic about where that care is best to come from.

[ForeverDad]

"BPD is on a spectrum... " The Personality Disorders are also identifiable with different patterns.  They can range from levels of "acting in" (more harmful to themselves) to levels of "acting out" (more harmful to others).  Similarly, some people with BPD traits (pwBPD) may respond to therapy, counsel and our efforts - and others not so much.

"Forgiveness is separate..." The hurt may be so intense or so repeated that you find it hard to forgive the other's behavior.  That's okay.  In that case, perhaps a phrase mentioned here sometimes might be sufficient, "Let Go and Let God".  How so?  Let go of the hurt and pain - at least to some extent - and let God take off the stress and pain weighing down your shoulders.  Letting go may make it easier for you to Move On to a better and more positive future.

"We - as the ex intimate partners - are typically the least likely to be effective in terms of helping and supporting a loved one with BPD..." Otherwise, after years being in the relationship with us, they would have responded positively and progressed toward recovery.  Then why expect a therapist - if therapy is sought - to help when we couldn't?  It's because ours was an intimate relationship and BPD impacts most the close relationships.  Others on the periphery may notice something "off" but the behavior is either brief or not as impactful.  On the other hand, therapists will keep an emotional distance, they know not to draw close emotionally.  That's why we couldn't truly reach the other since what we said was essentially blocked by their perception of the emotional baggage of the relationship.