No personal history of trauma, not a bad family or childhood. What else?

[Me88]

Ive talked about this with my therapist a lot. Most often people find themselves in these relationships due to patterns that molded them from childhood. My issue is i had a great childhood. Truly wonderful.

Never saw my parents fight. No cheating or drama. Stay at home mom who was so involved and fun. Working dad who was extremely present even though he was caring for us all. They made it work regardless of salary or anything else. My sisters and I generally got along well. Random little kid fights and hitting and all, but always together as we we are only separated by 2 years each. All held accountable. All responsible. All raised with the same morals and values.

My two sisters are married, one with 5 kids the other with 3. I'm the only one without a family now.

I was bullied badly through 6th grade but I can honestly say it doesn't cross my mind. My parents were always there. I wasn't left in the cold to deal with things. I don't think about it at all.

I wasn't abused, molested, ignored. Nothing. Many therapists and books lend themselves to pointing at an unhealed inner-child. I don't imagine I'd fall into that category.

So, why have I fallen victim to these types of people 3 times now? I'd really like to unravel whatever makes me continue the same mistakes.

[PeteWitsend]

...

So, why have I fallen victim to these types of people 3 times now? I'd really like to unravle whatever makes me continue the same mistakes.

I think there are two things to consider here:

1) whether you're attracting the wrong types of people; and

2) why you're allowing these relationships to continue.

The answer to the first question is tough, if not impossible to figure out; there are a lot of fish in the sea, but you landed three lousy ones.  Are you doing something that's attracting them?  Or could be bad luck?

As far as whether it's your fault, I think you'd need to take a good hard look at why this could happen.  To continue the fishing analogy, are you fishing in the wrong place?  How are you meeting these people?  Also consider that as time goes on, the # of "good fish" in the sea is going to decline as they enter stable relationships, leaving more lousy ones there.  So yeah, dating becomes more of a minefield over time.

It's certainly harder to control your response to the first question.  I think you shouldn't focus as  much on it.  There's nothing you can do about bad luck or attracting the wrong person, but you can limit it's impact on you.

Which brings up the second question: why are you allowing these relationships to continue for as long as they do?   How much time did you spend dating lousy partners that might've kept you from meeting a good one? 

You can control that!

You note that you tolerated bullying for a long time.  That's unfortunate, and it's not to absolve the bullies - who were wrong - but we live in a society where you have to stand up for yourself, and if you don't the bullying is just going to continue. 

Honestly, from the other threads you've posted, it sounds like that may be a big part of what's going on here.  You allow your partners to set the standard for how you'll be treated, and it's making you unhappy.  Bullying doesn't always take such an obvious form, but as I've learned, emotional abuse and mental abuse is still the same thing.  Female bullies may be less likely to resort to physical abuse, so they engage in other forms of it. 

[PeteWitsend]

My kingdom for an edit button!  I meant to say:

"There's nothing you can do about bad luck and it's hard to know for sure why you're attracting the wrong person, but you can limit it's impact on you.

[Me88]

That all makes sense.

My friends and immediate family often ask why i stay in these relationships for so long. My honest answer is that I know how normal they can act. They have it in them to be good and fun and loving. And it never fully disappears, theres horrible moments then bouts of great times. But the more I learn I realize this is the push pull game to trap you. 

As far as bullying it did suck. I do feel over it. If a man, or anyone really is rude or disrespectful, I definitely do stand up for myself. I am very good when it comes to enforcing boundaries with almost every person in my life. My only issue of concern in my adult life has been women. I dont know why. I know intimate relationships are different to friends and all. But it's still proven to hurt me.

I wish I knew what questions to ask my therapist. Or identify my own patterns. I'm not exaggerating when I say I virtually have everything else in life sorted out. I'm a solid adult. I just date women with bad childhoods and actual diagnosed mental health disorders.

[CC43]

I can think of a number of reasons there are people with BPD in your life.  First, pwBPD tend to be intense emotionally speaking.  You might be attracted to that intensity, because it can be alluring.  It's like the proverbial girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead--when she's good, she's very, very good, but when she's bad, she's horrid.  The thing is, usually you see the good part before the bad.

Secondly, pwBPD can seem completely "normal" sometimes, which is one of the reasons that BPD is so confounding and frustrating.  By seeing the "normal" side, you come to expect normalcy.  But then there's a meltdown that takes you by surprise--and it takes you by surprise because of your expectation.  Does the pwBPD in your life always seem able to "pull themselves together" when they want to?  That's because they do exactly that.  But sooner or later, their emotions will take over and there will be a meltdown, assuming that they are untreated for BPD.

Thirdly, you're probably a wonderful person.  You work really hard at your relationships.  You probably tend to blame yourself when things don't go well.  Even in the face of adversity, you continue to try to patch things up.  You might be an optimist, thinking, if I just apologize, or avoid triggers, or act really nicely, the relationship will work out.  You keep trying!  The issue is, you're probably doing most of the work, while the pwBPD is likely blaming you, if not abusing you.

Finally, most people don't have expertise in BPD.  I certainly didn't until a loved one was diagnosed.  I thought that 99% of the people I met were "normal," and maybe that's true.  But when you experience BPD, you start to see some behavior patterns and get a deeper understanding of it.  Yet I think you have to actually experience it to comprehend it, because many of the issues seem incomprehensible at first.  For example, self-sabotage seems illogical, but that's typical with BPD, because BPD is about reactions to intense emotions, not logic.

[PeteWitsend]

...

Finally, most people don't have expertise in BPD.  I certainly didn't until a loved one was diagnosed.  I thought that 99% of the people I met were "normal," and maybe that's true.  But when you experience BPD, you start to see some behavior patterns and get a deeper understanding of it.  Yet I think you have to actually experience it to comprehend it, because many of the issues seem incomprehensible at first.  For example, self-sabotage seems illogical, but that's typical with BPD, because BPD is about reactions to intense emotions, not logic.

This is key; it hit me like a lightning bolt when someone said my then-wife had a lot of the characteristics of BPD.  As I read through the traits, and unlikelihood that she would change, with or without medication, and realized this was the person I was "stuck" with, it hurt.

I always knew there were "crazy" people, and there were "abusive" people, and I figured I'd be able to recognize them from a mile away and avoid them.  It was pretty devastating to realize it wasn't that easy.  BPD is very insidious... in interpersonal relationships it doesn't really reveal itself until months or years of time with a person, when you start to see a pattern and start to see the sort of inconsistent "I hate you - don't leave me" messages from the person that you realize you're not dealing with a "normal" adult. 

And OF COURSE, there are good times with the bad times.  They know they have to provide some incentive to keep you chasing them.  And sometimes they even admit they have a problem with themselves and say they want to get help!  They will do and say anything to stay in the relationship: and why not?  the relationship is extremely one-sided in their favor; the Non "chases" them emotionally and romantically to try to reassure them and get back on their good side.  The Non doesn't hold them accountable for their behavior.  The Non doesn't leave them like all their prior partners did, no matter how they behave.  They have no incentive to change. 

If you've grown up learning to compromise, to be trusting by default, and to be generous expecting the same in return, you're almost primed to slide deeper into these sorts of relationships. 

Even aside from BPD, I think an important thing to remember is to keep your wits about you as you meet a potential new romantic partner.  Are you "over-extending yourself" to impress them?  Are you worried if you say the wrong thing, or don't keep them happy they'll leave you?  Keep these feelings in mind and be aware of them. Consider why you're concerned, why you have those feelings, and how another person could take advantage of them.

[PeteWitsend]

That all makes sense.

My friends and immediate family often ask why i stay in these relationships for so long. My honest answer is that I know how normal they can act. They have it in them to be good and fun and loving. And it never fully disappears, theres horrible moments then bouts of great times. But the more I learn I realize this is the push pull game to trap you. 

...

They CAN act normal... except in the context of close relationships, where their fears of abandonment and crippling insecurities drive them to constantly seek assurances from their partners & draw them closer, which -given their poor sense of self  - triggers their contradictory fears of enmeshment and leads them to push you away... triggering their fear of abandonment, and the cycle continues ad infinitum, which is what you're in.

The push pull game isn't really what traps you; the sweetness, "love-bombing," and intense emotional connection traps you.  The push pull game is what you get trapped in. 

[HoratioX]

Ive taleked about this with my therapist a lot. Most often people find themselves in these relationships due to patterns that molded them from childhood. My issue, is i had a great childhood. Truly wonderful.

Never saw my parents fight. No cheating or drama. Stay at home mom who was so involved and fun. Working dad who was extremely present even though he was caring for us all. They made it work regardless of salary or anything else. My sisters and I generally got along well. Random little kid fights and hitting and all, but always together as we we are only separated by 2 years each. All held accountable. All responsible. All raised with the same morals and values.

My two sisters are married, one with 5 kids the other with 3. I'm the only one without a family now.

I was bullied badly through 6th grade but I can honestly say it doesn't cross my mind. My parents were always there. I wasnt left in the cold to deal with things. I dont think about it at all.

I wasnt abused, molested, ignored. Nothing. Many therapists and books lend themselves to pointing at an unhealed inner-child. I dont imagine infall into that category.

So, why have I fallen victim to these types of people 3 times now? I'd really like to unravle whatever makes me continue the same mistakes.

I grew up in a very similar situation, with a similar history as yours.

Here's the thing: There may be nothing wrong with you (or by extension, me).

If you grow up in a moving family, surrounded by good role models, and raised with values most people would find admirable, that can make you (and by extension, me), and easy mark for someone who is a consummate manipulator and/or con artist.

You want to see the best in other people. That makes you easy to manipulate. You are honest and up front. That means your buttons to push are highly visible. You want to give others the benefit of the doubt. That means you are generous and forgiving.

I suggest to people to see a therapist because that's the professional thing to do, but the reality is a therapist is usually looking to find something wrong in everyone. Sometimes that isn't the case. That's not to say we don't have faults or we don't have problems. It's to say they may not be relevant to this situation or to the degree that others may want to say they are.

So, while I don't know you and it may even sound self serving, sometimes it's not us or, at least, it's not as much us. Anyone who has ever been victim of a con artist wants to blame themselves, but it's the con artist who did them wrong. The victim is complicit only to the degree they help the con artist but know better. A good con artist hides that as much as possible, and someone with a profound mental and emotional illness like BPD can be a consummate manipulator.

So, it's fine to reflect and ask yourself questions. If you can learn from this experience, certainly you should. Be being taken advantage of by someone with the disturbed need to do so should not by itself make you think something is wrong with you. Sometimes, healthy people are simply the easiest to victimize.

[HoratioX]

Sorry, that should read "in a loving family." Thanks.

[Pook075]

For me personally, I love helping other people.  I take a lot of pride in being the first one that many of my friends or family would call when there's a problem; I just love helping them work through it and find the right answer.  That's why I love posting here as well, it brings me joy to pay it forward.

People who know me would also say that I'm fiercely loyal.  If we're friends, I have your back no matter what and I'll do everything I can to help you, to protect you.  And there's a downside to that as well; I've stuck with lousy friends much longer than I should have at times.  I don't regret it though because that's what felt right in my heart.

I married someone with BPD despite the many warning signs, and we ended up having a BPD daughter together.  It would have been so easy for someone else to walk away, to flee from the chaos, but that's just not who I am.  I stood by my wife and my kid, fighting for them as much as I could. 

And looking back, I don't regret any of it.  I was true to who I am, who I want to be in this world.

Since then I've divorced and remarried, and at times I wondered if my current wife also has BPD.  She can be unreasonable at times and when she gets mad, it's explosive.  However, she's also super loving and compassionate, always looking out for me and taking care of me.  Even if I learn someday that she does have mental illness (which I don't believe), it wouldn't change anything because I'm still being true to me and I love her.

Understand that loving someone with mental illness is not a weakness...it's a gift.  It means you're loving and compassionate.  It means you easily forgive and show empathy, even when you're not being treated fairly.  In my book, it means that you're probably a pretty good person and we might be great friends if we met in real life.

In my opinion, you need to stop searching for "what's wrong with me?"  There's nothing wrong with being loving and compassionate towards complicated people.  If we're honest, we are just as complicated since we make mistakes as well.  Showing grace is never a mistake though, it's a blessing to give freely to others.

[PeteWitsend]

...

Since then I've divorced and remarried, and at times I wondered if my current wife also has BPD.  She can be unreasonable at times and when she gets mad, it's explosive.  However, she's also super loving and compassionate, always looking out for me and taking care of me.  ...

As I understand it, behavioral disorders are not as easy to diagnose; there aren't entirely consistent behaviors from one case to another, and some people exhibit them to a larger degree than others. 

It could also be something else in her case.  I've read some accounts here of women having hormonal issues tied to their menstrual cycles, but it being mistaken for BPD, and that only being diagnosed correctly when someone else starts tracking the episodes and notices the trend. 

In my experience, I've been with two women that quite possibly had a behavioral disorder.  I suspect they had each been subjected to abuse while very young, although neither admitted it exactly.  I was pretty convinced at the time my XW was BPD, and others concurred, based on her behavior.  I do wonder now if BPDxw had some overlap with anti-social personality disorder (ASPD); there was a calculated meanness to her actions, and a desire to actively hurt others (emotionally, mentally, and  attack their reputations).  Whereas my later girlfriend just seemed more hapless and unable to control her temper when she was triggered (which happened more and more as time went on).  That seems more like BPD to me. 

It's not really possible to say without extensive therapy to diagnose a disorder though, and I think for us, for the Non, it ultimately doesn't matter.  The bottom line is you have to decide what you want in your life and how you expect to be treated and what you're going to allow.  It doesn't matter if your partner is disordered (BPD or something else) if they treat you poorly, especially if you have kids together and that behavior is now being normalized and taught to a new generation.

[once removed]

I just date women with bad childhoods and actual diagnosed mental health disorders.

if this has happened 3 times, make no mistake: it isnt an accident. its the answer itself.

and, respectfully, it likely isnt about who you attract. if youre george clooney/brad pitt, or taylor swift/beyonce, you will disproportionately attract more people, of all kinds. disproportionately attractive people dont necessarily have disproportionately dysfunctional relationships, and attracting a dysfunctional person, in and of itself, is not only harmless, it stands to reason, if youre a functional person.

sure, theres a lot of bad luck involved in dating, and a lot of dysfunctional people out there. youre bound to pair with some, at least initially (not the same thing as getting into, remaining in, and contributing to a dysfunctional relationship). it is also true that if someone is disproportionately attracting dysfunctional people, absent (or otherwise repelling) healthy suitors, that person may be dysfunctional themselves, and exhibiting it.

at the end of the day, this dynamic is something you are attracted to, and gravitating toward. when you understand that, its a game changer. youre in charge. you can begin to make a shift toward consciously healthier choices.

i understand youre looking to get at the heart of why, but youre doing so through the lens of external factors: "what, other than me, is causing my bad luck in relationships"?. but in your own words, these are ongoing, conscious choices. and in other words, while we can speculate, and it may help, youre the only one that can ultimately answer the question.

our childhood, our family, our parents and their parenting, are our earliest and most impactful blueprint for our model of love and relationships (other early relationships are important too). while you say you had a normal, happy, healthy childhood and family, (no reason to doubt it), its also important to note we are also not necessarily the most objective judges of these things, because they represent what is our "normal". we pick up all sorts of subtle lessons about love, and what we equate it with. and besides, the inverse is true: a dysfunctional family or traumatic childhood is not a guarantee of particular relationship outcomes. that explains why a loving family might produce 3 otherwise "normal" children, and 1 with bpd. the "nurture" element is important, but so is the "nature".

it is good to examine our blueprint; it can explain many things that help shape us. for some, its an obvious connection. for others, it wont necessarily explain everything, or anything in particular. it may be a piece, and not the whole puzzle.

when we gravitate repeatedly to something we profess not to want, it means there is something deep down that we are getting out of the dynamic; it fills an emotional need. what that "something" is is not always obvious. it may require some deep digging, along with objective third party perspective. but a good start might be here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

People with a predisposition to be a codependent enabler often find themselves in relationships where their primary role is that of rescuer, supporter, and confidante. These helper types are often dependent on the other person's poor functioning to satisfy their own emotional needs.
...
Codependents are often inherently afraid of being rejected or abandoned, even if they can function on their own, and in these cases the enabling behavior is a way to mitigate fears of abandonment (NOTE: this, in part, explains why a person would choose dysfunctional partners, as opposed to healthy ones: they feel safe, wont reject us).  Codependent enablers often lack in self-worth and define their worth through another's eyes, thoughts, or views of them. They need other people to validate them to feel okay about themselves and without this, they are unable to find their own worth or identity.  For some, the codependent relationship will satisfy the need to feel competent and low self-esteem is boosted by comparing oneself to the dysfunctional partner.
...
When the relationship starts breaking down,  the codependent enabler will sacrifice their own emotional needs in order to keep the relationship going. At this point, he or she starts to lose themselves.  The mantra of a typical enabler is, "I do everything for her in the relationship.  It's not because of me that we have problems."

These imbalanced relationships can go on for some time, however, they are ultimately unsustainable due to their consumption of the enabler's emotional, financial or physical resources, and because they lead to resentment and relationship strain for both participants.
...
According to Bowen's Family Theory, families and other social groups tremendously affect how people think, feel, and act, and individuals vary in their susceptibility to, and dependence on how others think. These differences are based on the differences in people's levels of "differentiation of self". The less developed a person's "self," the more impact others have on his functioning and the more he tries to control, actively or passively, the functioning of others. Every human society has its well-differentiated people, poorly-differentiated people, and people at many gradations between these extremes.
...
The greatest problem people face in getting help for codependency is a lack of self-awareness; simply not seeing their role in the relationship dysfunction. Codependents instinctually know that the relationship is unhealthy but they are convinced that the problem lies with the other person or that the problem is situational. They keep complaining about and trying to fix the other person.

The concept of codependency provides a useful framework for examining how healthy our interactions are in relationships with others.  Becoming aware of your codependent traits is the first, and most important step in dealing with them.  With awareness comes the opportunity for change.  The fact is that codependency is learned - and as such, it can be unlearned.
...
Here is a codependency enabler checklist: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357673.0

If the section above describes your relationship, it's time to rethink your approach.

codependency is not a person who is simply guilty of loving too much. codependency is a hidden agenda - often hidden/unknown to the codependent themselves.

as we age, and learn to navigate the world, adapt to lifes stressors, we develop coping mechanisms (our earliest relationships can speak to this), and sometimes, later in adulthood, those coping mechanisms stop serving us, or even hurt us, or keep us stuck. when that happens, each time we bump up against them, it presents an opportunity, if we take it, to develop new, healthy coping mechanisms, and gravitate toward a healthier model. the insidious thing about codependency, and those old coping mechanisms, is the tendency/reflex to blame others for ones own dysfunction, rather than see it in oneself.

its also important to understand that codependency is a spectrum, ranging in severity. most of us fit more in the tendencies/traits category than the severe/pathological (this is likewise true for most of our exes as well). typically, it wont be as obvious, or show up in all aspects of our life; its going to be most pronounced in our closest intimate relationships. the tendency you describe in your romantic relationships is a hallmark.

if youre still with me, i want you to think back on these relationships, and what drew you to them initially. how did these partners and your chemistry with them make you feel? special? important? needed? competent? confident? alive? look past the obvious - good looks, niceties - what was the primal draw, in spite of the warning signs (or on some level, was it the warning signs themselves?). what was missing - what need was unfulfilled - that these partners filled for you?

dig deep. when you find it, you cant unsee it.

[Me88]

I've been thinking a lot.

I think I have 'codependent' qualities when dating. Not like I get anxious away from them, or can't be away from them for even a second. But I do get that warm feeling with my partner. And often try to keep it and grow it. And I try to bring them into my life as much as I can. So I initiate the enmeshment and it just never ends. What I might feel is healthy and fun, may not be?

Being naturally curious and always building things with my hands, fixing cars, FIXING everything. I think that's a personality trait I have too. Not that I want someone who needs fixing, but knowing that I can fix 'things' I assume that transfers into relationships. The women I inevitably end up with see the good in me and that I can handle a lot, so we fit well initially. And they inevitably need 'fixing' as they all had bad childhoods and were recently out of relationships or worse. So it attracts me subconsciously I guess. Which is weird, because I really don't crave that. Maybe it just feels right and familiar.

I lack boundaries and probably some level of self respect in relationships. I'm afraid to rock the boat, and usually try to calm things. I let bad things happen imagining they'll realize it and we'll be ok.

It's this internal want or need to be useful and be available to help others heal/fix themselves. I don't insert myself into their every problem, but I listen and offer advice when asked. And it makes me feel needed.

This might be a good start to sorting out what I'm doing wrong myself.

[SinisterComplex]

I've been thinking a lot.

I think I have 'codependent' qualities when dating. Not like I get anxious away from them, or can't be away from them for even a second. But I do get that warm feeling with my partner. And often try to keep it and grow it. And I try to bring them into my life as much as I can. So I initiate the enmeshment and it just never ends. What I might feel is healthy and fun, may not be?

Being naturally curious and always building things with my hands, fixing cars, FIXING everything. I think that's a personality trait I have too. Not that I want someone who needs fixing, but knowing that I can fix 'things' I assume that transfers into relationships. The women I inevitably end up with see the good in me and that I can handle a lot, so we fit well initially. And they inevitably need 'fixing' as they all had bad childhoods and were recently out of relationships or worse. So it attracts me subconsciously I guess. Which is weird, because I really don't crave that. Maybe it just feels right and familiar.

I lack boundaries and probably some level of self respect in relationships. I'm afraid to rock the boat, and usually try to calm things. I let bad things happen imagining they'll realize it and we'll be ok.

It's this internal want or need to be useful and be available to help others heal/fix themselves. I don't insert myself into their every problem, but I listen and offer advice when asked. And it makes me feel needed.

This might be a good start to sorting out what I'm doing wrong myself.

A problem with healthy boundaries and being comfortable and confident with conflict are some big things that stick out to me when assessing why you may be repeating patterns.

So of course easier said than done, but try to practice being firm and indifferent. That means work on speaking up for yourself, but do it within the context and confines of your personality. For example, I gather you are not a dominant strong personality so don't use that kind of tone and terminology. For example...I am a very strong and dominant personality and when I have to lay the law down there is no wondering if I am serious or not...you know I mean business. But see that is my personality.

So perhaps a way for you to get more comfortable with having a confrontation and dealing with conflict will be to use your curiosity to your advantage. For example...if you feel offended try to keep your composure and ask a question such as why would you say something like that? What is it that makes you feel like what you said to me is okay?

Also, be clear and concise, but also try to use more open-ended questions...this way of handling yourself will be in tune with your personality based on what I am gathering here.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[Me88]

Hello and thank you for your response. I'm not necessarily uncomfortable with conflict, but I don't enjoy it. Especially in intimate relationships where things tend to explode at every corner. I'd rather avoid the mine field than explore it.

I'm easy going in general, so it is very obvious when my personality shifts and people definitely know when I'm serious.

I don't use 'you' statements or words like 'always', 'every time', etc. And I for sure have said 'why would you say that?'...or 'this isn't how couples talk to each other'.

one issue, is I often got sucked into the circular arguments. I'd entertain nonsensical issues and sit there for hours on end and get 'wordy'. Then just confused in general. I would walk away at times, but then I worried that may become a habit and I didn't trust my judgement as to which situations required legitimate conversation (if we could even have that) or which ones just required me to exit the situation.

The 'fog' is very real in these types of relationships. It's like you're in one of those NASA spinning machines.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I lack boundaries and probably some level of self respect in relationships. I'm afraid to rock the boat, and usually try to calm things. I let bad things happen imagining they'll realize it and we'll be ok.

I think to build on SinisterComplex's suggestion, you need to stand up for yourself, and show some fortitude in doing so, because they're not just going to back down the second you try it, especially now that certain behavioral patterns are established between you two. 

So in your earlier example, you cook, clean the kitchen, and do all the dishes while she stands there watching you, and then she decides she's still going to pick on you, despite earlier saying you were doing a great job. 

Don't JADE.  And don't even let her start to lead you into that discussion.  Stop it right away, e.g. "Why do you think it's okay to talk to me like that?" or "Why are you picking on me now after all I just did for you?  I'm not going to have this discussion."

If she wasn't a pwBPD, she'd probably apologize, knowing that she was way in the wrong here.  But since that doesn't seem to be the case, you have to be prepared for what comes next, and that could be a fight.  For sure she's going to try to deflect from your question and point the focus back on your behavior - even if her complaints about it are totally unfounded or even entirely in her head.  Or if that doesn't work, expect some sort of escalation on her part... sobbing hysterically so you'll apologize and comfort her;  talking over you; yelling at you; name calling; etc.

What will you do then?  Continue to stand firm, knowing how you would like to be treated and refusing to accept anything less?  Or will you back down because you know on some level that if you don't, you're heading to a major fight and eventually a break up, and you are afraid of that?   

It's this internal want or need to be useful and be available to help others heal/fix themselves. I don't insert myself into their every problem, but I listen and offer advice when asked. And it makes me feel needed.

This might be a good start to sorting out what I'm doing wrong myself.

I think a lot of guys like to be the rescuer; I used to on some level.  I wonder why?  Is it that we have low self esteem and figure we need to be in that position in order to deserve the love and affection of a partner?  Do we otherwise derive some satisfaction from being a rescuer?

Could you see yourself in a relationship with a healthy, successful partner who doesn't need healing or fixing and just wants to enjoy life with you and grow together?   

That's kind of where I'm at now.  I view trying to help someone fix themselves as an exercise in futility.  Maybe I'm just too jaded or cynical, but helping fix someone seems like a fairy tale to me; the idea that you're going to meet a messed up person, help them, and live happily ever after is absurd.  It's far more likely that anyone you meet who is messed up personally has now learned unhealthy/manipulative ways of dealing with others.  It's engrained in them.  After a few decades of life, they're not going to change.  And you coming to them with kindness and patience is just an invitation to allow them to walk all over you.

Then you find yourself back here wondering how it happened again.  I'm not saying you have to be callous.  But if you want to help people, go volunteer at a foodbank, or find some professional outlet for donating your time or give money to charity.  Don't bring basket cases into your personal life, and then wonder why you're miserable and keep suffering from lousy relationships

[once removed]

glad youre digging into this  

Not like I get anxious away from them, or can't be away from them for even a second

i think youre touching on a common misconception about codependency/codependent tendencies: its not the same thing as being clingy, or two people that cant tear themselves away from each other, the latter of which is perfectly ordinary in the honeymoon stage of a relationship.

Being naturally curious and always building things
...
I'm afraid to rock the boat, and usually try to calm things.
...
It's this internal want or need to be useful
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I listen and offer advice when asked. And it makes me feel needed.
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I'm not necessarily uncomfortable with conflict, but I don't enjoy it.
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I'm easy going in general

most of what youre describing here are characteristics and personality traits about you. these things arent "good" or "bad", necessarily, just data.

they are also "normal" or ordinary things. the mental health profession is full of them. we all need to feel needed on some level. most people dont particularly "enjoy" conflict.

its important to remember, whether we are talking about codependent tendencies, or bpd tendencies for that matter, we are for the most part talking about ordinary behavior, just taken to extremes. "not liking conflict", taken to the extreme, can become "conflict avoidant", can become "being a doormat", can become being a poorly defined person that relies on others to define you. on the flip side of that extreme, you might have a high conflict person.

but these things arent in or of themselves "bad", or "defects", or "bpd bait", and tagging them as such might risk overcompensating in the other direction. people with codependent traits and tendencies have a tendency to do that. i did it myself, in my bpd relationship. after a history of, more or less, feeling like the one with stronger feelings in my relationships, and a tendency to have my heartbroken when i got dumped, it was powerful to find someone who was not only relentlessly into me, but seemed fully incapable of leaving me. i kept a foot out the door, often wanted to escape the pressures of the relationship, frequently used breakup threats to control the relationship, and then got my ass handed to me when she left.

lacking boundaries, self respect, and being drawn to circular arguments are another matter. you may lack self esteem, bolstered by your relationships. you may lack self efficacy - a low belief in ones ability (in relationships, it looks like "settling", or picking someone that feels "safe"). you may gravitate toward drama (youre not "sucked in" to circular arguments, in your own words, youre a willing participant; the acknowledgment of that is where true boundaries begin), in that it makes you feel alive, or competent. i kept engaging, even when i knew i shouldnt, because something felt good about getting my digs in.

i think you buried the lede, though.

The women I inevitably end up with see the good in me and that I can handle a lot

this was the sentence that jumped out at me, and i think you may want to pull some more on that thread.

"mirroring" is a behavior we often talk about in the context of bpd, except that it isnt "something that people with bpd do", its something we all do, without which, we wouldnt much have relationships to speak of. mirroring facilitates bonding. it builds rapport, understanding, empathy. in psychoanalytic theory, we require consistent mirroring from our caregivers to set the stage for our attachment styles, and our own self development. its not the same thing as "liking the same stuff", which often happens at the beginning of relationships anyway. if i smile and nod as you speak, if i laugh at your joke, im mirroring you. good stuff, right?

the key difference is that people with bpd traits tend to take it to a more extreme/pathological degree, to compensate for their deficits.

i would bet dollars to donuts that the women you find yourself drawn to and connecting with, on an intuitive and subconscious level, are the ones that are particularly adept at sensing this need in you: to see the good in you (as you see it) reflected back at you. your own need to see, and believe, that you can "handle a lot". and ill bet that feels pretty powerful.

heres where it gets tricky: this too, is a normal, ordinary need. you just, like a lot of us, may take it to extremes, and for the same reason that someone with bpd might: to compensate for deficits.

odds are, you have a powerful need to feel and be seen this way, and you connect with people that mirror it back to you validate it. in romantic relationships, it may feel familiar, make you feel connected, and alive. you may identify it as love. being the giver of that makes your partners feel the same way.

at the same time, depending on how powerful, that need to be seen can risk eclipsing the other person - seeing them as a mirror, and expecting consistent mirroring, rather than seeing them for who they are. it also risks blinders; not seeing your own self more objectively, in relation to others.

thats where the problems tend to start in bpd relationships. you have two people bonding over an unsustainable fantasy, and eventually, the person with bpd, engulfment fears triggered, begins to resent it, and a power struggle ensues.

any of this land with you so far?

[Me88]

Hey once removed. Thanks for you and everyone's help here. As we all know, identifying our own 'bs' is the hardest thing to do.

I could be confusing things regarding codependency and all. And yeah, in the beginning, and to be honest when rages and splitting wasn't occurring we were pretty inseparable. We did just about everything together, but I never minded. Whenever either of us wanted to do our own thing it happened with no issues really, minus the weird fights surrounding random things.

I might say I'm conflict avoidant with relationships. I'm willing to sit and listen and have open and honest discussions, calmly. Until I finally hit my breaking point. I would say I was a doormat. And as my therapist and close people I trust would say, her punching bag. She was HIGH conflict. Everything was a boxing match; customer service calls, restaurant workers, I've seen her get into it with her family over the phone, etc. I'm unsure it's an insecurity or low self esteem thing, as I'm very capable of defending myself with everyone else. I just fall flat in romantic relationships.

I never had a foot out of the door. She expressed she thought I'd leave her or was checked out, but I never saw it that way. And I'd reassure I would never breakup with her in relation to what we were dealing with, those weren't deal breakers and things we could work through. But then I did leave her, abruptly, seemingly to her, out of nowhere. But it wasn't out of nowhere if we were both being honest. I just finally realized my place in her life and my importance level, which was quite low apparently.

I would say I do lack boundaries. I absolutely entertained circular arguments imagining my reasoning and talking things out could clear things up, never ever did. The self respect thing is tough, because if I had to really look at myself, I'd say I do have self respect. But...going through things and not standing up for myself or setting boundaries says otherwise. I just operate with people close to me differently. I have more patience and really think these types of relationships should be my best ones. And in my weird brain, I justify insults, accusations, rage, because 'everyone handles things differently'...and people do and say rude things when angry at times. So, I just try to navigate it and move on from it. I didn't feel alive in those hours long arguments, I actually felt myself withering away mentally and physically. It was crazy making.

Maybe I felt competent, in that when she'd truly make something up that DIDN'T happen, I had the 'high ground' in that there was zero anyone could say to prove otherwise, which isn't good I suppose. I just hate being attacked based on fabricated situations. However, I will say, the last 6 months or so of our relationship, I had maybe a 50-60% success rate in noticing her getting elevated, voice raising, more curse words tossed in, her bringing up the past, and the insane pupil dilation...and I'd say 'I think things are getting a bit heated, so let's just take a break and come back to this when we're both feeling better'. Sometimes she'd thank me for doing that. But most times we'd return to the same exact dynamic and she'd tell me breaks are stupid if I'm just going to keep deflecting and lack accountability.

Yes, mirroring in ways is normal and probably good. I just like being able to come into a relationship as my true self and have my partner be ok with it. It feels more safe than powerful. Just be my silly self. Competent. Reliable. etc.  Not picked apart for everything I say or do.

I didn't see her as a mirror as we definitely had different ideas, hobbies, interests and generally that was ok. We made that work for the most part. I just wanted consistency in general. Everyday, truly, was a mystery as to how she would show up. And it was dependent on so much; sleep, being late to work, work load, traffic, lunch options, how her hair or makeup came out. Any and everything was a trigger. And then I just became the bad guy in everything. I actually enjoyed her differences and would often say that. She would ask why I'm even with her if I have my job, home, cars, money, etc. And that was one of my answers, that she challenges me in certain ways to see and do things differently. That I'm not dating a clone of myself and we get to teach each other new things and experience things together.

It all lands well, but I would say I'm not 'seeing' it all clearly. I think my responses are ok, but I feel like I'm unintentionally just staying on the surface of things.

[ForeverDad]

A common pattern with people with BPD traits (pwBPD) is that they describe all their prior relationships as bad ones.  (In contrast, normal people would likely recall the good with the bad.)

So one way to read that is that in all the prior relationships, the pwBPD's ex's decided to end it before it went too far off the rails.

One change for you, since you can't avoid people who later display various  , is to become more familiar with how to identify what the may be and be quicker to exit and Move On.

Remember that once you've left, your ex will also describe you as one more of those despised ex's.

[Me88]

A common pattern with people with BPD traits (pwBPD) is that they describe all their prior relationships as bad ones.  (In contrast, normal people would likely recall the good with the bad.)

So one way to read that is that in all the prior relationships, the pwBPD's ex's decided to end it before it went too far off the rails.

One change for you, since you can't avoid people who later display various  , is to become more familiar with how to identify what the may be and be quicker to exit and Move On.

Remember that once you've left, your ex will also describe you as one more of those despised ex's.

She was rather vague when describing her previous relationships. She said the reason she left her ex-fiance before me was because, 'she didn't feel heard', which was her initial concern with our relationship. So, I'm unsure I got the whole story. She says she ghosted her best friend for years because she didn't think she was taking well enough care of her cat, which again just didn't seem right. Her and her sister had a bad relationship with a history of screaming, cursing at each other, physical fights, etc. So everything around her seemed to be very chaotic.

I absolutely need to learn how to identify red flags and not just fall for the initial way someone presents themselves, and use that to overshadow wrongdoing.

And yes, I'm already despised. It was one of the reasons I left, she had talked so bad about me her best friend refused to have me in her presence, although I've only ever had cordial conversations and good times around them all. But I was now toxic, abusive and wasn't allowed to attend her friends engagement party and future wedding. I had just realized this was one sided and I or our relationship was not a priority or defended. I know what she has probably done, as she'd record arguments, film me, screenshot text arguments, etc. She had a whole folder on her phone dedicated to that stuff. And of course, all one sided and of me. None of her responses. I tried to record her one time, and she stopped talking and smiled. But again, regardless of what I had shared with close people, everyone was inviting, kind and never said a word.