Advice from a Friend

[LastBestPlace]

I've been reaching out to a friend regarding the options of pursuing a legal separation or divorce. He has been very helpful in promoting open dialogue with him rather than internalizing all of the problems that I'm facing in my relationship. He's also been speaking regularly with my wife in the hopes of gaining a broader perspective. This week he came back with practical advise for the both of us. Although I do appreciate the engagement, I'm struggling with what he's recommended.

His take is that he and his spouse have always envied our relationship. He believes that what he's witnessed over the past 10+ years was enough to warrant avoiding divorce altogether. Although I'm okay with putting the effort in, he thinks that I need to abandon my focus on her BPD and place 100% of my attention on rekindling the spark that he observed each time we were together as couples. Having recently been spooled up on the strain that her issues have placed on the marriage, I don't see the advantage of ignoring it, even in the short term.

It might be a case of him buying into what he's heard from her more than what I have shared over the past few weeks. Maybe it's simply a situation where he genuinely feels that what I've learned about her disorder is enough to drive my actions in a negative way. Regardless, I'm watching her mental health degrade during our separation. Is a temporary "head in the sand" approach even worth considering?

[Notwendy]

IMHO, the best person to work with to make such decisions about your marriage is a therapist (individual therapy for you). A therapist can be objective about your own part in the dynamics, and also help you to make your own decision about what to do.

It's good that you have a good friend as a support system. Friends, family, care about you but aren't objective professionals. Taking these decisions to an individual therapist so your friend isn't pulled to one side or the other between you and your wife would help preserve your friendship with him too.

[ForeverDad]

Having recently been spooled up on the strain that her issues have placed on the marriage, I don't see the advantage of ignoring it, even in the short term.

Borderline traits (BPD) impact perceptions, feelings, behaviors and more, especially in close relationships.  Many people with BPD traits (pwBPD) cannot or will not be independently objective in their lives, their orientation is slanted toward self interest.

A reasonably normal person should want to be aware of all aspects of the relationship and its impacts.  This peer support site encourages newcomers to educate themselves and with that informed perspective to make better (less bad) conclusions and decisions.

That said, relationships do change or develop over time.  While we would hope they deepen and become stronger over time, not all do.  That 'spark' in the past your friend mentioned described a past moment in time, whereas both you and your spouse are somewhat different people now.  Can you go back to that earlier time?  Perhaps, but the real question is whether your spouse can go back to that earlier time.

It likely would not be wise if only one of you are willing to go back to the good old days.  After all, it takes two to make a relationship successful.

As already mentioned, one benefit of seeking an experienced counselor or therapist is that you'll have observations from a trained person who does not try to be a friend but offers objective comments and time-tested strategies.

[PeteWitsend]

...

His take is that he and his spouse have always envied our relationship. He believes that what he's witnessed over the past 10+ years was enough to warrant avoiding divorce altogether. Although I'm okay with putting the effort in, he thinks that I need to abandon my focus on her BPD and place 100% of my attention on rekindling the spark that he observed each time we were together as couples. Having recently been spooled up on the strain that her issues have placed on the marriage, I don't see the advantage of ignoring it, even in the short term.

...

I agree with ForeverDad and Notwendy... you really should seek advice from a professional here.  In my experience, well-meaning but unquestionably naive friends do more harm than good when they try to intervene to preserve relationships, particularly when there's a personality disorder or mental illness going on.

People unfamiliar with BPD are just completely clueless when it comes to dealing with BPDers.  They simply cannot fathom that a partner may deliberately provoke conflict or lie about something in order to justify their outrageous behavior and assume you must also be doing something wrong here.  Their only solution is to "both sides" the dispute to try to get you to agree to compromise on something.  But compromising with a pwBPD is a fool's errand.  It's just going to drag things out. 

FWIW, even professionals can get thrown by the pwBPD.  The first MC we saw was an older guy who had been doing it a long time, and had a masters in psychology.  I recall him doing the "both sides" thing with us, which would calm BPDxw down.  During one of our last sessions, he added though that she was overreacting to perceived slights from my family, and she started screaming at him that he didn't know what it was like to be in her shoes; he recoiled like he had just been stung by a scorpion, and apologized. 

Which makes me think of another thing to consider: gender of the person involved.
I noticed when BPDxw tried the same thing with a female MC - i.e. she tried screaming and going for emotional appeals, like "you don't know how horrible he really is" - it didn't work, and the counselor was kinda like "yeah, sweetie, I'm not going to sit here and let you scream at me.  I've heard both sides and just don't see it the way you do." 

So there's a gender thing to consider as well.  BPDxw had mentioned on occasion she preferred to work with men because she could get them to do things for her, and generally manipulate them.  Women were more skeptical of that, and didn't fall for her antics.

OP - I'm curious if your friend's wife has had the same types of interactions with your wife that he has.  You say they envy your relationship, but if you're posting here, that just makes me think they've only seen the parts of it your wife wants them to see. 

[LastBestPlace]

OP - I'm curious if your friend's wife has had the same types of interactions with your wife that he has.  You say they envy your relationship, but if you're posting here, that just makes me think they've only seen the parts of it your wife wants them to see.


You are exactly right. The Jekyll and Hyde scenario has been going on for almost 30-years. There is a facade that dictates behavior until she feels de-prioritized, challenged, etc. That's when Mr. Hyde shows up. My friend, his wife, and their two girls have only witnessed the positive aspects of the relationship. I try to feed that whenever I can. When it's good, I could see why they envied us. However, when it's not....

[LastBestPlace]

I agree with ForeverDad and Notwendy... you really should seek advice from a professional here.  In my experience, well-meaning but unquestionably naive friends do more harm than good when they try to intervene to preserve relationships, particularly when there's a personality disorder or mental illness going on.
 

I have been seeing a therapist for a little over 6-months. He's the one that identified BPD in my wife before citing a conflict and stating that he could only work with me moving forward. He's advised me to separate and start thinking about divorce as an option. She is pushing back stating that he only had 3 sessions with her, and that he is out of line issuing a preliminary diagnosis without getting to know her. She also said no to negotiating terms for a legal separation (my idea), but said she would do it IF I agreed to couples counseling. We live in Montana, so there aren't many options for the latter unless we are willing to wait 3+ months for an opening. Our kids are older, so that's not a concern. I'm mainly worried about it getting messy if she hits another low point before we reach an agreement.

As I'm writing I can feel how spineless I come across. The bottom line is that I am feeling a lot of shame and guilt in all of it. I've been told for years that I have abandoned her and that I've killed all trust in our relationship. In a weird way, I still believe that in spite of the counseling I've received.

[Pook075]

I have been seeing a therapist for a little over 6-months. He's the one that identified BPD in my wife before citing a conflict and stating that he could only work with me moving forward. He's advised me to separate and start thinking about divorce as an option. She is pushing back stating that he only had 3 sessions with her, and that he is out of line issuing a preliminary diagnosis without getting to know her. She also said no to negotiating terms for a legal separation (my idea), but said she would do it IF I agreed to couples counseling. We live in Montana, so there aren't many options for the latter unless we are willing to wait 3+ months for an opening. Our kids are older, so that's not a concern. I'm mainly worried about it getting messy if she hits another low point before we reach an agreement.

As I'm writing I can feel how spineless I come across. The bottom line is that I am feeling a lot of shame and guilt in all of it. I've been told for years that I have abandoned her and that I've killed all trust in our relationship. In a weird way, I still believe that in spite of the counseling I've received.

It's not about being macho or spineless.  It's about what's best long-term for both of you...and that answer is complicated.  When the relationship works, it's great.  Can you get back to that though?  And when the relationship is hard, it's terrible.  Can you learn to communicate in a different way to avoid the worst moments?

The answer to both questions is yes....if that's what you want.  It will take considerable work from both of you to get there though, and it might get worse before it gets better.  That's the hard reality here that your outside friend can't see.  A fun date night can't fix this...we're talking serious therapy and a willingness from both of you to work through it together.

Nobody here can tell you to stay or go.  It can get better if you guys are willing to learn to communicate a different way. I tried to show you both sides of the coin though, so to speak.  Both paths are incredibly hard.

[ForeverDad]

I have been seeing a therapist for a little over 6-months. He's the one that identified BPD in my wife before citing a conflict and stating that he could only work with me moving forward.

Your therapist has identified BPD traits based not just on on your details but also having had her in sessions.  If you were in those sessions too, then his mentioning separation may indicate he saw too much discord.  He did well to focus on one person going forward.

She also said no to negotiating terms for a legal separation (my idea), but said she would do it IF I agreed to couples counseling.

Many here will share their experiences with couples counseling.  It often fails if both persons aren't seeking peace, resolution and solutions.  When people with BPD traits (pwBPD) are involved, couples counseling has a high risk of devolving into Blamefests.

I will add here that you can still decide to separate, she can't prevent that though she can make it quite painful.  Both of you are adults and either of you can decide to separate or even divorce.  If that is your decision then family or probate court is there to "referee" the process.

I've been told for years that I have abandoned her and that I've killed all trust in our relationship. In a weird way, I still believe that in spite of the counseling I've received.

There have been a lot of misleading claims about disinformation in recent years.  But what we've learned is that if repeated often enough and emphatically enough, it can eventually be very impactful and even convincing.

Her claims fall in the categories of repeated disinformation.  You recognize it logically now but it will take time for you to process that reality.  Give yourself time to let that settle in.  After all, recovery is a process, not an event.

[PeteWitsend]

... She also said no to negotiating terms for a legal separation (my idea), but said she would do it IF I agreed to couples counseling. ...

There are plenty of threads on the futility of couples counseling when one party is BPD here.  I found a recent one: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3060031.0.  Read up and prepare yourself for this if you do decide to go that route.  I would bet you $5 it's just a matter of delaying the inevitable and you'll end up back here after a few months, or weeks, depending on how many sessions you attend together. 

What does a legal separation entail?  Why would you go that route instead of simply a divorce? 

Bear in mind that the more "entangled" you are with the pwBPD, the more sources of conflict exist, and the behavior you see from them you find troubling isn't going to stop, it just takes different paths.  Perhaps if the legal separation clearly defines certain boundaries then you can live with it, but if not, or if you can't enforce certain provisions in court and they're left to the parties to work out, you're just trading one type of conflict for another.

I eventually got divorced and while it didn't end conflict between BPDxw and I, removing her from my living situation and day-to-day existence was wonderful.  There are a lot fewer things to fight about, and if it wasn't for the fact that we have a kid together, there would be none.