Need divorce advice ASAP

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi all, I’m in the early stages of divorce with undiagnosed BPD W. Two kids, both under 10. W has had several instances of telling children she would leave us, and threatened divorce off and on throughout the years. She attempted to self delete recently and the children were the only others in the home at this time. Due to the methods of the attempt and child neglect, I decided to file. There has also been a temporary order in place for me to have sole custody with some visitation. W denies it was an attempt, mostly dismissing it, and is threatening vague but serious allegations if this goes to court (soon) and things are not not settled according to what she claims to want. From what I can gather, this is standard visitation for her (roughly 30% of time with kids), joint legal custody, and regular electronic communication with the kids, along with me dropping claims of neglect. I need advice on what to do, if I should be happy to settle for these or risk potential false allegations of abandonment, alienation, and possibly more serious false allegations along with a drawn out court battle? I want to see her have some mandatory counseling but don’t know how much more I can expect from the courts

[Strictslice]

Hi all, I’m in the early stages of divorce with undiagnosed BPD W. Two kids, both under 10. W has had several instances of telling children she would leave us, and threatened divorce off and on throughout the years. She attempted to self delete recently and the children were the only others in the home at this time. Due to the methods of the attempt and child neglect, I decided to file. There has also been a temporary order in place for me to have sole custody with some visitation. W denies it was an attempt, mostly dismissing it, and is threatening vague but serious allegations if this goes to court (soon) and things are not not settled according to what she claims to want. From what I can gather, this is standard visitation for her (roughly 30% of time with kids), joint legal custody, and regular electronic communication with the kids, along with me dropping claims of neglect. I need advice on what to do, if I should be happy to settle for these or risk potential false allegations of abandonment, alienation, and possibly more serious false allegations along with a drawn out court battle? I want to see her have some mandatory counseling but don’t know how much more I can expect from the courts

[ForeverDad]

With a disclaimer that I too went through the divorce grinder yet managed to come out the other side...

The angry ex with Borderline traits is of course quite entitled, especially at the early stages of a divorce.  That's why mediation, typically ordered as one of the first steps in the divorce process, often fails.  So don't feel that you have to give, give and give yet again in order to reach an agreement.  It's okay to go back to court and report, "Sorry, mediation failed.  I tried but it failed."

However, court is quite reluctant to rule on every disagreement.  It would rather take longer and hopefully settle if it only doesn't have to make rulings.  And yes, many of our divorces did end in surprising settlement agreements, just not early in the case.  Typically it occurred just before a big hearing or trial.  My settlement was two years into my divorce process - yes a two year divorce - and happened "on the court house steps" as I arrived on Trial Day.

I held firm that I would not be sidelined as a dad.  And I faced innumerable allegations made against me with CPS, "my son told me..." suspicions to hospital doctors, court, sheriff's office where we made our supervised exchanges, etc.  I recall the time I got a call from CPS notifying me that they received a report and they had closed the case, yet they never told me what it was about!

There's likely no way to appease the beast, so to speak.  Do what you have to do, for yourself and your kids.  Slog through the mud your ex throws, you WILL come out the other side.

About two years after the final decree I filed for full custody because my ex kept up her games and antics.  I got it but when the decision came out I was astounded that she had claimed I had choked her long before we separated, first time I heard about it.  By then I can imagine them saying, "Yeah, yeah, anything else?"  No one even bothered to ask me about her claim!  I think they included it just to be sure it was wrapped up in a short paragraph.  But I did move up to full custody so I didn't bicker over it.  By then she had lost that much credibility.  In other words, I didn't win my case as much as she lost hers.

One final thought, we can sense you're catastrophizing.  Yes, it feels like a combined avalanche, earthquake and meteor storm.  But you and your kids will get through this and come out the other side.  Just don't gift away all the advantages you now have with your excellent temp order.  We here in peer support have "been there, experienced that" and we made it to better (less bad) times.  You will too.

[kells76]

Hi Strictslice and welcome 

Was CPS contacted or involved after your W's attempt?

Where is everyone living right now -- is everyone (you, W, kids) still in the same home?

Am I tracking that this:

W denies it was an attempt, mostly dismissing it, and is threatening vague but serious allegations if this goes to court (soon) and things are not not settled according to what she claims to want. From what I can gather, this is standard visitation for her (roughly 30% of time with kids), joint legal custody, and regular electronic communication with the kids, along with me dropping claims of neglect.

is what she is saying she wants things settled as?

That is kind of amazingly... not much. Many moms with BPD here tend more towards the entitled side (full custody, supervised visitation for the dad, claims of abuse, "the kids don't want to be with you" type stuff). That's really interesting, and to me, it's telling that she isn't immediately going full "Mom of the year" in what she says she wants. Does she have a lawyer?

What will your counteroffer be? What has your lawyer said about her offer, and what has your L recommended you do?

A court may "split the difference" between her plan and yours -- so I wouldn't necessarily accept what she's offering as-is just to placate her.

You can also recommend a "step up plan" where if she meets certain criteria (documented attendance at therapy for X sessions, documented completion of parenting classes, documented drug testing before time with kids for X months, supervision during parenting time by one of three persons selected by Dad, for X months, etc) for a certain amount of time, then the parenting plan shifts up to let her have more time with kids if she's successful. That way you aren't jumping into 30% of time with Mom right away, right after she's made an attempt.

Also consider that "joint legal custody" does not have to look like "Mom and Dad each get 50% say on every legal issue". It can be split by issue, too -- i.e., you are tiebreaker on issues A, B, and C, and Mom is tiebreaker on issues D, E, and F.

One former member here made sure he was tiebreaker on (something like) medical, dental, education, and mental health, and Mom got to be tiebreaker on (something like) religion, gynecology visits, extracurriculars, and orthodontics... so Dad was able to make the big decisions without having to fight with Mom every time, and Mom still felt like "an equal parent" because in terms of # of issues, they were equal.

I need advice on what to do, if I should be happy to settle for these or risk potential false allegations of abandonment, alienation, and possibly more serious false allegations along with a drawn out court battle? I want to see her have some mandatory counseling but don’t know how much more I can expect from the courts

Starting at the end first -- in whatever plan you submit, you can include that parents and kids must do counseling for X amount of time (doesn't have to be "all together" -- individual T's might be better). No guarantee that'll make it into the final plan, but worth a try. I wouldn't spend a ton of time trying to craft a way to "make her go" -- my H's kids' mom has not been able to stick with effective counseling at all. Focus on what you are willing to do and what your kids need. Probably higher priority to get court order saying "kids will do counseling for X amount of time minimum; Dad will compile list of 3 counselors and Mom will select one in writing by Day/Date; if Mom does not select in writing by deadline, Dad will choose"

What are you afraid she'll accuse you of? Where would her claim of "abandonment" be coming from if you currently have sole custody under the temp orders?

...

Lots going on for you, I know... but it's possible to make it thru to the other side OK.

[Strictslice]

Thank you for the reply! Yes CPS was involved initially, but later on I found out that they had not pursued anything because the kids were under my care. W moved out shortly after and is renting, kids are with me.

That is what she’s saying she wants things settled as, but I figure that can change at any time. She does have a L, she has definitely been influencing the kids that everything is my fault especially them not seeing her much.

My counteroffer would be something like this: standing orders for no alcohol when around kids, supervised visits until completion of any court ordered therapy and/or parenting classes, then her getting the @30% standard visitation plan as a step up, my having sole legal custody throughout. I really like the counseling plan  idea for the children, and I’m going through therapy as well. She already is also, but it’s not intensive. My L thinks my plan is very realistic.

I definitely like your ideas on being a tiebreaker with legal custody issues, I think that is extremely valuable.

Her accusations may be all over the place, not really sure what they will be but just trying to be prepared for anything based on what I’ve heard/read and audiobooks

[kells76]

CPS was involved initially, but later on I found out that they had not pursued anything because the kids were under my care. W moved out shortly after and is renting, kids are with me.

Two things can be true at the same time -- CPS/DHS may not "do" anything, and there can be a report. You can call your state's CPS/DHS and see about getting a copy of the report. Your L may know how to do this, too. (When I had to call CPS last year, they didn't end up "doing" anything, but there is a report with a report #. I did make a non-anonymous report, not sure what access is like when it's not you reporting, or you report anonymously).

It is possible that your W is shifting to a level of parenting/involvement that works for her and that she is capable of right now. If she made an attempt then she is probably highly overwhelmed. It is good, in a way, that she is getting space for herself, and attending therapy (however much or little it "seems" to be helping).

It is a big, big deal that she moved out and the kids are with you. When she hints at threatening "abandonment" that is probably the "disorder" part of BPD showing up. What she says doesn't make sense when compared to reality. Yes, someone "left the kids behind"... but she struggles with distorted perceptions, intense shame, and a difficulty with accurate attribution of causality, so it comes out the other end as "you abandoned us, you abandoned the kids" when even after reading just a couple of your posts, from behind a computer screen, that's clearly not the case.

That is what she’s saying she wants things settled as, but I figure that can change at any time. She does have a L, she has definitely been influencing the kids that everything is my fault especially them not seeing her much.

Yes, what she wants may change based on how her emotions are doing at the moment. Keep working towards a legally binding plan.

How is she influencing the kids? In person? Zoom call? Texts?

Do the kids tell you things like "Mom says you hate her", "Mom says she wants to see us but you won't let her"...? If so, how do you respond when you hear that?

Have you told your L about this?

My counteroffer would be something like this: standing orders for no alcohol when around kids, supervised visits until completion of any court ordered therapy and/or parenting classes, then her getting the @30% standard visitation plan as a step up, my having sole legal custody throughout. I really like the counseling plan idea for the children, and I’m going through therapy as well. She already is also, but it’s not intensive. My L thinks my plan is very realistic.

Good to hear your L thinks it's a good plan. If you have the time, not a bad idea to pencil out a couple more ideas, so that you have negotiation wiggle room without giving up core requirements.

I.e., if there comes a time where there is negotiation , have things "on the table" that you would feel OK with trading (to get something else important to you/the kids), that aren't coming from the "non-negotiable" bucket. Don't leave yourself with nothing to trade.

Ideas for "tradable" non-core things are: certain holidays, Mom's birthday, etc. If Halloween is super important to her, and there's something she's willing to negotiate that is important to you, consider saying "OK, even though we should alternate Halloween every year, how about you are with the kids every Halloween from 5pm-9pm, and then I'll be with them every school holiday" (just as an example). My H's kids are with Mom every Christmas Day... but we're with them every Christmas Eve. No alternating Christmas, but this way works better for us, because the kids aren't as burned out on Christmas.

You don't have to follow boilerplate schedules, but do be really specific in what you come up with. Don't just say "they're with Mom every Halloween" because Halloween starts at 12:00a.m. on the 31st and continues to 11:59p.m. on the 31st, and I cannot imagine you want to drop off at midnight and pick up at midnight. Don't assume that "you two can be reasonable" about what time frame "every Halloween" means. Put in times, and a clause saying "unless both parents agree in writing to something different". Again, this is all just an example, but it gives the feel for the level of detail that might be needed.

I definitely like your ideas on being a tiebreaker with legal custody issues, I think that is extremely valuable.

Run it by your L, too; s/he may have some more good ideas for how to phrase "tiebreaker" stuff in a helpful way.

Her accusations may be all over the place, not really sure what they will be but just trying to be prepared for anything based on what I’ve heard/read and audiobooks

I don't remember what the "original legal complaint" document is called (it's something specific), but in it, H got accused of cheating on his taxes, being abusive to the kids, and being a sexual harasser. Fun times.

The key is not letting that stuff rattle you, and not letting it freak you out that "now she's got the upper hand". People are allowed to say literally whatever they want in that initial document. Her L will not stop her from saying all kinds of things. Keep your eyes on the prize -- don't go down rabbit trails of being defensive about stuff that will distract you from focusing on what the kids need. Of course, if it's something heinous, check with your L for wording a brief reply refuting it. Or, maybe a blanket statement: "All Ms. Ex-Strictslice's allegations are completely untrue, and we have extensive documentation supporting this. My focus remains on what is best for the children and that is my only goal in this upcoming hearing" or whatever your L thinks best.

Divorcing a pwBPD is grueling... and, there are so many of us here who really get it.

Keep posting whenever you need to; we'll be here.

kells76

[PeteWitsend]

Hi all, I’m in the early stages of divorce with undiagnosed BPD W. Two kids, both under 10. W has had several instances of telling children she would leave us, and threatened divorce off and on throughout the years. She attempted to self delete recently and the children were the only others in the home at this time. Due to the methods of the attempt and child neglect, I decided to file. There has also been a temporary order in place for me to have sole custody with some visitation. W denies it was an attempt, mostly dismissing it, and is threatening vague but serious allegations if this goes to court (soon) and things are not not settled according to what she claims to want. From what I can gather, this is standard visitation for her (roughly 30% of time with kids), joint legal custody, and regular electronic communication with the kids, along with me dropping claims of neglect. I need advice on what to do, if I should be happy to settle for these or risk potential false allegations of abandonment, alienation, and possibly more serious false allegations along with a drawn out court battle? I want to see her have some mandatory counseling but don’t know how much more I can expect from the courts

Do not give in to her threats.  Tell her you're not negotiating under duress and if she wants something, tell her to contact your attorney, because you're not going to discuss this stuff with her directly because of her behavior.

I remember my attorney saying that you should get things over with, and let them have "enough rope to hang themselves with" and then go back to court and get more custody.  This was terrible advice.  The time to fight is now, when you're in court and the issues are all hot so to speak.  Going back to court later is more expensive, and you have presumptions against you that are hard to overcome, because judges need to see evidence of a substantive change before they'll amend a divorce decree. 

You're in a good position now; she should at the very least not get more custody without meeting conditions. 

One thing you can probably give on is the electronic communication rights.  She can call the kids each day, or whatever.  The other stuff is a firm no. 

Get the kids a court-ordered therapist, and do not allow her rights to choose her own, outside the decree.  If she's trying to screw with them now, it's only going to get worse, and having another adult in the equation goes a long way to managing that. 

Joint parenting rights with a pwBPD are just an invitation to continued fighting.

Right to designate the home and school go hand in hand, and these are huge.  Don't give those away; depending on where you live, she can move around and make it very difficult to see your kids if she has the right to designate those. 

[ForeverDad]

Yes CPS was involved initially, but later on I found out that they had not pursued anything because the kids were under my care.

My sense is that the agencies can - sometimes - get a consensus of the overall situation yet not share that with us.  I had several interactions with children's services as well as other agencies.  What was shocking to me was ho-hum paperwork.  I didn't get blacklisted of course but neither was I praised.  For them it was another day at work but it was my life teetering in the balance.

My counteroffer would be something like this: standing orders for no alcohol when around kids, supervised visits until completion of any court ordered therapy and/or parenting classes, then her getting the @30% standard visitation plan as a step up, my having sole legal custody throughout...

I definitely like your ideas on being a tiebreaker with legal custody issues, I think that is extremely valuable.

I don't know whether this is practical - since I don't know whether any orders have allowed this - but every plan for a projected step up schedule ought to include a "what if" step down schedule.  The problem is that every one expects things to get better but when dealing with serious mental health issues, the reality is that relapses are virtually predictable.  Why order a schedule without including options when the results are iffy or failing?  Going back to court officials who may take months to address an issue that has arisen doesn't seem helpful to practical parenting.

As for Decision Making or Tie Breaker status, you'd be amazed how reluctant the system is to enable the obviously better parent with those tools for successful co-parenting.  It's almost as though they're fixated on equal everything despite everyone's misgivings... even though they know it will almost surely result in returns to court to resolve ridiculous claims.

It is possible that your W is shifting to a level of parenting/involvement that works for her and that she is capable of right now. If she made an attempt then she is probably highly overwhelmed. It is good, in a way, that she is getting space for herself, and attending therapy (however much or little it "seems" to be helping).

It is a big, big deal that she moved out and the kids are with you. When she hints at threatening "abandonment" that is probably the "disorder" part of BPD showing up.

I agree.  Your ex may not want to look bad by "losing"her kids, after all feeling of public face are important.  Yet despite her threats to make more waves (which could vary well happen anyway) this may be her actual comfort zone with reduced parenting and hence reduced everyday stress, more or less.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I agree.  Your ex may not want to look bad by "losing"her kids, after all feeling of public face are important.  Yet despite her threats to make more waves (which could vary well happen anyway) this may be her actual comfort zone with reduced parenting and hence reduced everyday stress, more or less.

This, 100%.  BPD parents are generally lazy and selfish.  They'll talk a big game and make a lot of demands of the other parent, but their own follow through will diminish over time, especially if they think no one is paying attention. 

The attention they receive is the key... when they feel like they're in the spotlight, they'll make a show of being this perfect, dedicated parent and as soon as they feel like they've "won" and gotten the accolades for it, you'll see their interest in actually parenting their children drop way off.  The ones who suffer, of course, are the kids, who end up getting raised mainly by the BPDparent. 

Look for "worthless trinkets" you can offer her to allow her to save face while keeping the rights that matter, like designating the home, designating schools (mainly those two), and allow her input or "consultation" on things like medical decisions, therapy, etc., with the tie-breaker being someone like the treating physician or the child's therapist. 

Remind yourself that the BPD parent will use these rights to play games and leverage their own interests at the expense of yours and your kids even.  Don't let this happen.

A couple helpful points from my own experience:

1) my D's therapist told me that typically post divorce, there's a "new normal" that lasts for about two years.  Two years post divorce, there's often some dramatic change: someone moving away, someone getting in a serious relationship, etc.  Sure enough this happened in my case: BPDxw and her BF decided to move to a really remote & rural part of our county, putting as much distance as possible between us.  I only learned about it through my D's therapist, as my D had been told NOT to tell me any of this, or "she would be taken away from her."  This coincided with an intense alienation campaign she was waging to get my D to hate me (it didn't work, but it made visits difficult for a while).  I eventually sued her again, which got stretched into 4 years of legal limbo before being dismissed, but did get BPDxw to behave a little better, at the threat of losing primary custody. 

2) As far as them using parental rights to their advantage, BPDxw got primary custody (I didn't fight for this, at my attorney's advice), and used it to make the aforementioned move.  In doing so, she was taking our daughter out of the well-regarded (one of the best in the state) school districts we were zoned to, and moving to a lousy rural district. 

She dismissed my concerns, and said if I wanted our daughter to go to a better school, it could only be a private one and I'd have to pay for it, and help drive her every day.  This was not possible for me. 

All that talk about being the best parent, dedicated to her daughter's well-being, and she does things like this.