Difficultly conversing with ubpd mother

[123sunshine123]

Long time lurker first time poster. Huge thanks to all who post here. It is very helpful to hear about and learn from all your experiences. I am a 56 year old female, in low contact with my 84 year old ubpd mother who lives independently, with my financial support. She  has no chronic conditions so she will likely live another 10 years. I learned about bpd about 20 years ago and have been periodically in therapy and have taken the family connections course. I work on boundaries and recovery from FOG daily. It's a HUGE struggle. I have never posted because the back story always seemed to long to post about. My history with my mom sounds a lot like all the posts here on this board.

Today I am here with a discrete question, looking for advice and what to say when the following situation comes up. Situation -  As she slows down and feels her age she fears death. She has deep regrets and sadness that she has no relationships. I am the last person standing. She has broken a record that we are not close and she has no intimacy (her word not mine) with me and she feels that I have prevented her from having a relationship with my three kids (young adults now in college, living at home with me). We live about 2 miles apart. I see her regularly and help her with many things.  Every single conversation with her she criticizes my lack of sharing with her. I have always felt like I am getting the third degree when she asks questions.  In the past before low contact I felt hurt when she would say something negative about something I thought was positive. She is extremely critical and thinks it's ok to judge and have her opinion and tell me her opinion all the time. Several years ago I was able to establish a boundary that I do not discuss parenting with her, but that does not stop her from bringing up the topic. When she does I end the conversation. Usually she will not change the topic and I have to leave or hang up. She is a fighter and likes to argue (she does not think it is arguing), and she does not notice that I am uncomfortable even when I tell her.

For the last year she has been repeating why am I so closed off and why won’t I share any information with her. I have told her that in the past when I share she has something negative to say about it and it hurts me and I do not like to then have that negative memory and association. She thinks that is thin skinned, and that I always have to be right and that I can't take hearing a different opinion. I have also told her that her negative opinions about everything and me and her criticism do not make me want to share things with her. She calls me boring and rude because I do not share. What I dread the most, I guess what hurts my feeling the most, is when I tell her something like “my daughter and I went kayaking” then at a later date she will say something snide like, “must be nice your daughter does things with you,” “you never would do anything with me.” And “tell me what it's like to have adult kids at home, you moved out and never came back so I never got to have adult kids at home.” All true statements, but all are meant to hurt my feelings, and they do. I live in fear and anxiety thinking about talking with her, seeing her number on my phone, and receiving a text from her.  She completely blames me for not loving her more, for interfering with her parenting of my younger sister (10 years diff). She blames me for interfering with her relationship with my kids. Partially true, in that I was careful but I have never restricted her access to them. I am sure that my low contact is a contributing factor, but so are her ubpd characteristics. I have told her to reach out to them directly and establish her own relationship, it's not my role to facilitate that for her. But she blows up when she hears that. In her heart she believes that I can in fact change her feelings if only I would  . . . fill in the blank, love her more, spend more time with her, give her a better material life etc. She has always been the victim. (She did in fact have a very terrible childhood).

I already limit my encounters with her and focus on the tasks at hand, but I feel between a rock and a hard place when she complains about her lack of intimacy with me and my kids. I tell her I am not her partner or spouse, and I am not a therapist. I have told her that I would only discuss parenting with her if it was in the presence of a therapist as discussion outside that we get nowhere. She says "f*&% therapy." I remind myself that I am an adult and allowed to decide what I will talk about and what I won’t. When she starts with the complaints about my past behavior (low contact, grey rock), I get stuck. I do not know what to say. I see she is hurt and she says she is hurt, but I do not want to change and open myself up to her negativity and criticism.

So I guess this is my question, what are some words to say that are brief, informative, friendly, and firm and will bring an end to hearing her complain about my lack of care for her and lack of intimacy with her and the hurt I have caused her in “keeping her from my kids”?  She is consistently mad at me for putting her in this position  (lonely, isolated, friendless, sad and angry).

So many times when I read this board I think to myself that really this all comes down to what is in my own head, that I have to accept that she will be hurt and mad, and that is the price I pay to protect myself and I have to be ok living with that knowledge. What do you all think?

[zachira]

There are really no words that you can say to your mother that will change her behaviors or what hurtful things she says to you. Keep in mind that the mean things she says to you are how she feels and have little to do with you. My mother who is deceased had BPD. The biggest challenge seems to be to differentiate our feelings from the hurtful comments our mother makes and not take what she says personally which is tremendously difficult and a long learning process, as we daughters of mothers with BPD are often enlisted since birth to be caretakers and take on the overwhelming feelings of our mother with BPD as if they were our own feelings. No matter what you decide to do, what boundaries you decide to set with your mother, having a mother with BPD is a life long sorrow that we grieve at different times and in different ways in the life cycle. Keep us posted on how you are doing and let us know how we can be the most helpful. There are many members on PSI who are daughters of a mother with BPD and have very similar heartbreaking ongoing experiences like you are having with your mother.

[123sunshine123]

It is so hard to accept that there are no words that will change her behavior. Why is it so hard? Because I posit, in other healthy relationships other people are responsive to feedback, and because they value the relationship, they modify their behavior based on feedback. This common response can never be expected from a person with ubpd. Their needs are so big and so immediate that there is no space for attending to anyone else's needs or differences.  This makes me angry. Anger I have learned is often second to other emotions such as hurt. It is very difficult to admit that what she says and how she behaves hurts me. Thank you for your comment Zachira “having a mother with BPD is a lifelong sorrow that we grieve at different times and in different ways in the life cycle.” I agree.

I find that during conversation I am at a loss in what to say in response to her negativity or criticism, in my effort to “not taking what she says personally” my reactive mind wants to rebut her with facts. But facts we have learned are not effective when dealing with feelings. I really REALLY struggle with validating her perspective when it is so opposite my outlook. Funny/not funny it feels like any sharing I do puts her in the same position as she rebuts my more positive outlook. Any debate drives her immediately to her broken record blame/victim story where her negativity is because she had no one to help her over the course of her life and she is negative because she has had a hard life, and I would be negative too if I had her life experiences. It’s more than a negative outlook, its deep neediness, desperation, anxiety and regret that can never be soothed or lessened.

I will work on a short statement that I can use when she asks why I won’t share and when she complains that I keep her from her grandkids that will communicate that I do not want to have a conversation about those topics because the conversation is not productive.  It’s so awkward to say “you know mom, this topic often causes us to argue because we think differently about it. Because we seem not to agree, I prefer not to get into it again.  Let’s change the subject.” If she can’t change the subject, then proceed to ending the conversation. It’s hard to have to say this over and over nearly daily. It’s hard bc of guilt. Guilt and obligation are what propels me to give in to her demands. She is relentless and it’s easier to do what she wants and to be quick about it to get her to shut up. She simply cannot stop obsessing and demanding and arguing until she gets her way. So, when I do end a conversation, she is not getting her way, and her anger starts to build. She thinks that a good daughter would be enmeshed, that would be her happy place. Nothing short of enmeshment would stop her demanding more intimacy. And until my last dying breath I believe that there is no amount of closeness that can ever fill her up (especially if she is not seeking therapy).

Thank you for letting me vent. I welcome all suggestions and feedback.

[zachira]

It is so powerful for you to have discovered that underneath the anger is often sadness. We can stay stuck in anger, and keep repeating the cycle of anger which does not bring about long term relief. Focusing on the sadness, grieving the losses can be very healing. I have had to learn how to cry deeply like people do in some cultures when a loved one dies which brings me relief and resolution. It is hard to heal when our mother with BPD is still alive and continues to abuse us with hurtful comments no matter how many kind generous things we do for her. Often we get stuck in the fear and anger, as we become less tolerant of the abuse and know that a new round of abuse is coming. You are not alone in feeling the need to help your mother and not go completely no contact. It is so painful when there seems to be no relief in sight from all the abuse. Keep us posted and keep working on ways to set boundaries that limit your contact with your mother. It is possible to be in her presence yet find ways to set boundaries that make her hurtful comments less impactful on your wellbeing both in the moment and long term. What do you do for self care?

[Notwendy]

Your relationship with your mother is similar to mine in the later years of her life. There was a time when I did share personal information with my BPD mother, assuming this was a normal thing to do, and not knowing about BPD. Looking back on what was "intimacy" with her was different than what we think of as a close relationship.

It may have appeared that the sharing was both ways, but for my BPD mother, learning personal information about me (and later my children as they got older) seemed more like information gathering to her. It gave her a sense of power to be in this position.

I realized later that BPD mother lied- a lot. I don't know how much of her "sharing" was actually true.

Conversations with her felt like interrogations. She would ask probing questions and also questions that seemed like "fishing" for information. She wanted to know all about the kids- normal for a grandmother but also it felt like she was using this for her own emotional gratification, more than I was comfortable with.

I also couldn't trust her to not share personal information with others.

So, we stopped sharing personal information in conversations with her- and also the kids did as well as they got older. She did sense this, and also claimed I was "keeping her from the grandchildren". There was another boundary I was concerned about and that was that BPD mother could also overshare and I didn't want the children to be put in a position of emotional caretaker for her.

I also noticed that the less I emotionally reacted to BPD mother, the more distant our relationship felt to me. I wondered if the feeling of emotional closeness with her was actually drama, and that as I worked on my own emotional reactions, less drama, it felt like less connection.

I did not live close to her but remained involved with her in her later years. It also seemed like she was critical of my attempts. Phone calls with her consisted mainly of her discussing her feelings, sadness, hurt feelings.

There really wasn't much to say to help her feelings- we can't control someone else's feelings. It is difficult to hear them but it may help to keep in mind that these aren't about you, even if she's directed them at you. I learned to not say anything that may resemble JADE, or feel like a criticism to her. It seemed that her own feelings were overwhelming to her.

BPD mother's emotional needs were huge and the need seemed impossible to "fill" up. I tried what I felt I could to help her while maintaining my own boundaries. It wasn't enough. But I don't know what could have been enough. I also felt it was not my children's responsibility to meet her emotional needs. I expected them to treat her with respect and they did, but they were not obligated to share their personal information with her.

[123sunshine123]

Hi, back again searching for how to reply to ubpd mother when she expresses a false narrative. If I am not to take it personally and I am to understand that it is her disorder and emotional pain that drives her, what is left for me to say in reply? Long story below and this is typical of what our relationship is like.
Over the years I have used gray rock to not argue or disagree with her, typically I can only muster providing a listening ear, with occasional weak validation such as “sometimes I feel that way too,” or “I can see how mad/sad/angry that would make anyone,” and similar agreeable statements. But my default is typically silence, which is not appreciated by her and initiates her standard diatribe that I do not care for her or love her. Mostly she talk non-stop without question, break or pause.
Here is an example from this week. I took her to a play and dinner last Sunday, to get her out of the house and do something “fun.” She complains that I only interact with her when there is “business” to attend to such as helping her with her mail, insurance, doctor appointments, doing chores around her house and the like. (Three or four times a year I look for things to take her to outside of national holidays and birthdays, which to me adds up to a lot of contact. To her it’s never enough for her.) On Monday, she texts me she has diarrhea she thinks from the dinner “aioli” of which she had three bites.  I am thinking she as an adult can take care of herself, take some Imodium, rest, drink liquids. I offer sympathies, but nothing more. Tuesday, I reminded her to get her blood work in advance of a doctor’s appointment the following week, and she reports she still has diarrhea. She is having car trouble and a fight with the mobile home park office manager, so I go down in the middle of the workday to help with the car and the fight. Then hurry back to work. I do not address stomach issues, except to provide sympathy, advise she take it easy, stay hydrated. Wednesday, she texted me about her mail she received and needs help with and does not mention stomach issues. Thursday no text/no contact. Friday around 7:30 am she reports she is still sick. I pick up the phone to call her, as she hates texts (I think I’m showing care in a manner she prefers). She is mad that I have not asked about her diarrhea on Thursday. I asked her if she tried Imodium and I offered to buy some and bring it to her. She protests that she does not want to take medication. She catastrophizes that diarrhea can kill elderly and is symptom of cancer and that she knows something is seriously wrong with her and she wants to see her primary care doctor. I brought her Imodium and groceries and offer to call to arrange a primary care appt. They can’t take the same day, so we go to urgent care. The PA performs a physical exam and urine test, both normal. She advises that we go to the emergency dept. so she can have a blood test to check her electrolytes and asks her to take a stool sample and take it to the lab to check for parasites. (IMO both of these follow ups are not necessary based on the symptoms and will frustrate and tire her out; at 84 she complains how taxing it is to go to the doctor. I keep my opinions to myself). She is compelled to do everything the doctor says and thinks there is something seriously wrong, e.g., cancer, and that she “knows she does not feel right,” and “she is not doing well, they will like admit her and she does not have her pajamas.” So now it is noon, and we go to ER. Wait. And she gets her blood test, which is normal, she is hydrated, and the ER doctor says she is healthy and looks good. Nothing to do, go home, rest, drink fluids, eat BRAT diet, take Imodium.  We leave at 2, go to lab for blood test, there has been issues with the process and getting the doctor order to the lab (we had been calling while we were waiting), this is her third try to get the routine test (another story), and are not able to get the test, we go to the market for more groceries, and then I take her home and spend 15 min explaining how she can take the poo test which she is anxious to do and bring back to the lab so she can be sure she does not “have cancer.” 8 pm Friday night after spending all day with her taking care of her health she texts me “you have been very mean to me with your voice. That is precisely why I don’t feel like you really care. Yes, you are there, but the voice shows annoyance. You talk to me from your high horse in a noncaring way. I wish I could tape you.” I know I was irritated by 3:30 when she could not understand how to put her poop in the test vials. I was irritated that an adult could not seem to figure this out and she asked a lot of questions and was critical of how I read the directions to her and that she did not understand. IMO she has trouble bc she is scared and bc she is afraid of doing it “wrong” and invalidating the test/results. No contact on Saturday and Sunday. I am taking a break, busy with other things. Monday at 4 pm I called her to ask how she is doing and if she was able to get her blood test and leave the poo samples things she was worried about. She sounds hostile when she picks up and says she does “not want to get into it, more sh&% by the insurance company. Then she starts with a play by play of all the difficulty. She continues with other topics that are troublesome to her, then on to complaints about trump and how scared she is that something bad is going to happen in the country. 35 min later I have to go to a class, so I say goodbye and hang up. 90 min later she sends me a long text that describes how unhappy she is with my phone call to her. She says that I did not say “how are you feeling, did you get your stool sample done, are you taking the Imodium, only that I asked how it went for her at the lab, with the getting her blood and the poo sample dropped off. She states that I only asked what I did so I could plan my Wednesday, (I am taking her to the doctor where they need the blood test results, and I am taking her to primary care to follow up on the diarrhea. So yes, I am interested in the blood test, and bc I know it was a difficult process I wanted to be sure she got it done before Wednesday.  After 35 min I had to go and did not have time to ask other questions, she as usual controls the one way flow of words at me “sharing” all her other issues and fears about politics. She talks without stopping. My time ran out.) Her text goes on to say in caps “you can’t fake NOT caring! It showed on Friday too. You said you did not care. That’s why I can’t believe you or your cards (referring to bday and mother’s day cards, this is an ancient complaint that she voices each time she receives a card that what is in the card is not true and I don’t love, value her etc. She has been saying this to me for decades, since I was a teenager.) Her text continues “Fact is, we both know that it was putting you on the will that made you barley tolerate me. But please KNOW that I KNOW & FEEL IT. Your contact with me is only about ISSUES. (I had just taken her to the play and dinner not 6 days prior)
So, the reason to type all this out is to ask, what the heck am I supposed to say to her when I see her Wednesday to take her to two doctor appointments? Typically, I would say nothing. Wait for her to bring up and repeat her text all again verbally until I am able to drop her off and go back to work. I think all I can say is, I understand you are mad, I’m doing the best I can.” I do not want to “defend,” or JADE and I do not want to agree/validate her feelings because I do not think that they are valid. It reminds me of when I was a young teen, she would say things to me, and I would literally turn and look behind me to see if she was talking to someone else bc her opinion had no basis in facts. She makes up stuff and she bring up old hurts that I can not sooth. She is very poor (always has been) I spend an average of 18K each year on her upkeep (house cleaning, gardener, cell phone, car ins, repair, home maintenance, etc. Her 1971 mobile home, when sold, may just pay back what has been spent to care for her last 20 years, and if she goes to a nursing home there will be nothing left. I am certainly not in a relationship with her for the money! Realistically, based on the doctor’s feedback there is nothing serious going on and we have a primary care appt on Wednesday ready to address any ongoing concerns. As of Friday, the Imodium was working.  I did say I did not care if she took the Imodium or not, it was up to her, I told her she is an adult and she can decide if she wants to take it or not, because that is what the ER doctor said. She is an adult (without dementia) and can take care of diarrhea independently. If she needs me to go to the store, she can simply let me know. In my head I am trying to think of her text message as her telling me I am a pink elephant. I know it’s not true, so ignore it. I feel okay with the level of attention, care and service I provided her this past week given the diarrhea and think I have taken her needs seriously. I do not feel guilty. I feel mad and unjustly accused.  I know she will be angry when I see her and that anticipation of conflict gives me anxiety.
She complains that she is hurt by what I said and did not say and she brought up old unrelated hurts (cards, and her will) that are not at all relevant, nor an accurate assessment of what I think or what I have said.  I feel I was doing the best I could for her assuming she is well enough to take care of diarrhea especially after the doctor said she was in good health.
 Anyway, if you read this far thanks for hearing me vent. I know some people on this forum have situations so much worse then me being verbally berated by an old lady. Sounds ridiculous, my mommy hurt my feelings, LOL. I need to get over it already. I wish I had something clever to say to her. 

[Notwendy]

This kind of conversation sounds so familiar. This is feeling speech. I felt during this time that I was witnessing the distorted thinking and emotional pain of BPD. It is sad- here you are- being there for her and she can't just acknowlege it, due to her emotions.

My mother didn't live close enough to me for the daily errands but when I visted, I would do them. After the visit, where doing these things for her was the focus, she'd find something I did or didn't do to be disappointed or upset about. It felt demoralizing. She'd also do something that undid or changed what I did- like when you took your mother to the doctor- then she wanted to go to emergency.

Phone calls  with her  were mainly her talking to me. I feel like these were expressions of her thoughts and feelings, but also- these are difficult to listen to.

I want to address your last statement, because, this is about you (the rest is about your mother). Your feelings and emotional well being matter. I think we have a tendency to dismiss them- something we have learned to do, and also because a parent may not have validated them.
 
Sounds ridiculous, my mommy hurt my feelings, LOL. I need to get over it already. I wish I had something clever to say to her.


You are invalidating yourself. Possibly because this is what you have heard from your mother- "your feelings are ridiculous, you need to get over them"


No!! Your feelings are not ridiculous. To have your efforts be made wrong or diminished by your mother- this does feel hurtful. I would cry after these visits.

Our feelings are information for us. As adults, we have to be aware of how we act on them, if we act on them at all, but we can let them inform us. Fear is one of them. If we feel fear, then we look at the situation. Are we being chased by a bear or is there a tiny spider on the floor? This determines our actions. If something feels hurtful- we look at that situation too.

Your mother's behavior felt hurtful to you. This doesn't means she's a danger to you- you don't need to run away from her, but you can decide how to manage your feelings. I think it is great that the two of you do fun things together like going to a play, and that you can take her to medical appointments and do errands for her. These are the moments that matter- that you will remember and know you did them. It may be that in between these times, you will need some alone time, some self care, some counseling- whatever you feel helps you to cope.

Consider community resources for the elderly- is there adult day care? Can someone from her religious community visit her? Vising nurse to check on her? An aide to assist with tasks at home for a few hours a week? Perhaps if she has a home medical test, a nurse can come help her prepare that. Contacting social services in your area may find some ideas. If she is low income, see if qualifying her for Medicaid might help help with some rescources. It does assist with nursing home costs- which she doesn't need at the moment and may not ever need, but in some areas, there are some home care resources. Still, in the US, a lot of elder care falls on the family as caregivers- and there are local support groups, sometimes adult day care options, to assist families in this situation.

As to what to say to her? I'd say nothing about what she has said in the past. She may not remember even. I don't think there's anything you can say. These are her thoughts- and one can't change them. Just know, yourself- that you are doing good things for her, whether she speaks positively about them or not.