Checking In

[HurtAndTired]

Hi all,

It’s been a while since I posted (April 18). I wanted to give an update and get perspective from those who’ve been through this.

Since then, a lot has happened. I’ve fully committed to leaving my marriage and have made significant strides in getting my financial house in order. I'm close to reaching 30% credit utilization and my credit is getting back to where it needs to be to be able to walk away financially intact for bot my S4 and myself. I realized a few months ago that I’ve been emotionally and physically abused for years, and there’s no going back. Even if my wife were to change, I don’t think I could ever trust her again or feel safe in the relationship. I am fully emotionally and spiritually divorced from her even though we share a house. She can no longer hurt me with her words.

Some updates:

I’ve been sober for almost 6 months now—not because I had a problem, but because even one beer seemed to make her more likely to lash out. Sobriety has given me clarity and calm.

I’ve redecorated the guest room and made it fully mine. That space has been a sanctuary and a small declaration of independence. S4 calls it "Daddy's room."

I’m documenting everything. I’ve consulted with an attorney and have a detailed plan to file for a TPO, temporary custody, and then divorce early next year. I'm also working with a DV advocate and checking in with her weekly. I'm giving her copies of all the evidence of abuse that I have been collecting.

I’m doing everything I can to protect my son, although there have been some challenges. A few months back my dBPDw disappeared overnight with SS26 to go out drinking. She was out of touch for 27 hours and didn't return calls or texts. S4 was freaking out and I had to call the police to do a wellness check. Then again just a few weeks ago I was gone to an academic conference tied to my doctoral studies for 2 days. To get revenge on me for going, my wife took our son to a local amusement park on the day I was to return. She did not tell me where they were going or when they would be back. His bedtime came and went and I had no idea where they were and she was not answering calls or texts. Again, I had to call the police for a wellness check. Not surprisingly, she answered their call on the first ring and was furious at me for calling them. I told her that if she ever pulls a disappearing act with S4 again to expect exactly the same thing.

She has been in therapy (if she’s telling the truth about going) for a few weeks, but I’ve seen little evidence of real insight or change. She still accuses me of affairs, snoops through my belongings, and tries to control the narrative.

I’ve also started to process the full weight of her abuse—physical (including strangulation), sexual (consent violations), and emotional. It’s horrifying to realize how long I minimized it to survive. I ran everything that she has done to me through ChatGPT to see what the legal weight of her actions against me would be in my state had I reported them all. It turns out that many of them are felonies including assault with a deadly weapon and marital rape. Even had she been convicted on just a few of them, she could be looking at decades in prison. I remind myself of this any time that my resolve starts to fade.

My question for the group:

For those who’ve gone through a divorce with a high-conflict person, how did you keep your resolve when they made last-minute gestures of working on themselves or tried to derail your plans?

How do you navigate the period between emotionally detaching and filing when you’re still living together?

I’ve made it this far because of support from people like you. Any advice or encouragement would be appreciated.

HurtAndTired

[eightdays]

I had a journal I kept where I saw how many times my partner would behave terribly and cruel, and then come out of it and say they needed to work on themselves.   I saw in my journal over time the repeating pattern.   Every time it happened she would say she needed to work on herself when she became afraid of losing me because part of her knew the behavior was weird.    A counselor told me it would take many years of therapy, including having someone that would be available to her 24x7, not just once a week, and that is the protocol.   I did not see my partner ever doing that.   So I didn't have any hope at all at that point that my partner could change, and I took what they said with a grain of salt.   

[Pook075]

For those who’ve gone through a divorce with a high-conflict person, how did you keep your resolve when they made last-minute gestures of working on themselves or tried to derail your plans?

If she claims to be working on herself, then that's fantastic...encourage her to keep up the good work.  This is a person you love (or loved) and of course you want to see what's best for them, despite what's happened and the current situation.  So be encouraging, even though you're not seeing progress.

However, her last minute attempts to reverse years of abuse doesn't mean you should just blindly accept things from her perspective.  BPDs work in cycles, ranging from idolizing their partners to despising them.  Who's to say this is any different, or that changes will be long-term?

Again, support her desire to receive therapy and make meaningful changes.  That has nothing to do with whether or not you should file for divorce.

How do you navigate the period between emotionally detaching and filing when you’re still living together?

You do the best that you can every single day, and you get through it however you can.  You focus on what's best for the kid and what's best for your own mental health, even though things are a mess at the moment. 

If you're dead-set on divorce, then this is the only path forward and it requires quite a bit of steps.  All you can do is take one step at a time and react appropriately when she challenges you.  If that means leaving early, so be it.  If it means being kind and patient, even when it feels like the last thing she deserves, then so be it.  You just keep moving forward and do the best you can.

[Notwendy]

Hi all,

I’ve been sober for almost 6 months now—not because I had a problem, but because even one beer seemed to make her more likely to lash out. Sobriety has given me clarity and calm.
My question for the group:

For those who’ve gone through a divorce with a high-conflict person, how did you keep your resolve when they made last-minute gestures of working on themselves or tried to derail your plans?

How do you navigate the period between emotionally detaching and filing when you’re still living together?

I’ve made it this far because of support from people like you. Any advice or encouragement would be appreciated.

HurtAndTired

First, I want to congratulate you on your sobriety. I've been in 12 step groups from the CODA/ACA side and know this is an accomplishment. Some people attending the group began with AA, got sober, and then decided they'd benefit from CODA, ACA, so I learned their journey.

I used to think that because I don't have an issue with alcohol, I didn't have a connection to these groups, but learning more- I could see the connection between addiction, and enabling, and the family dynamics- which were also similar to families where there is a person with BPD. So whether someone's steps to changing this begins with not drinking, or less enabling- it's positive change on your part.

I don't have personal experience of leaving a high conflict relationship but I did observe one, and while there wasn't divorce, there were behavior patterns. Abusive and disordered relationships are complex and involve both people. They are also cyclic. I think this is one reason the decision to leave is confusing.

The abuse is a way of releasing difficult emotions. After the rage/abuse cycle, the feelings are "out" and the person may act remorseful and make attempts to improve and the partner then has hope and remains. But the feelings build up again until the next cycle. There's a push-pull dynamic with a pwBPD.

After one of BPD mother's "episodes" I think she did have some awareness that she'd push too far, and there was a period of "being good". While she had a reason to blame us or something else for the issue- a rage or dissociation would happen even if we didn't do anything to trigger it. She'd seem to find something to be upset about.

Yes, if your wife is going to therapy this is a good thing, but if it were me, I'd be thinking long term and looking at patterns- is this the push-pull, or the abuse cycle? Real change takes work and time- years, not a few days or weeks. A quick "I'm good now" isn't long term or consistent change. You also don't know how effective the therapy will be. Your decision to divorce is based on you and your boundaries, not whether or not she goes to therapy at the moment. 

The lawyer is the best advice on staying in the house/moving out, so I assume that is what you are following. I have heard that leaving may be construed as abandoning the children so it's important that the lawyer directs what to do about that.

The pattern I observed with BPD mother with boundaries or wanting something was that she'd rotate through the character descriptions in "Understanding the Borderline Mother", until one of them hopefully worked. If being nice didn't- then she'd be Waif and then, become abusive (Queen, Witch). I don't consider these as being completely consciously manipulative. It's that these behaviors worked for her and were reinforced by our compliance.

You've been in a certain pattern with your wife. Now you are changing the pattern- but she hasn't learned new ways of relating. It would make sense that she'd escalate the behaviors that have worked for her (extinction burst). This includes her abusive behavior so be aware. Ask your lawyer about what to do if this happens and how to stay safe and keep your underage child safe.

Keep your plans to yourself as much as possible.

[HurtAndTired]

Thank you all for your answers so far. They have been very helpful. I do want to add some pertinent information though. For a long time I have been wondering why my dBPDw does not behave in the same way as many of your significant others. I have been tracking her symptoms carefully, doing a lot of research, and running the symptoms past my therapist. While I am not in a position to diagnose her, I began informally trying to diagnose when I realized that there is no push/pull in our relationship, but rather just push/act like things are normal. In 13 years there has never been a sincere apology or any real efforts to mend the relationship/second round of love bombing. It turns out that she has, like many pwBPD, comorbid traits of other cluster B personality disorders.

My wife has 7 of 9 traits of BPD, making that her main disorder. She is of the petulant subtype. She also has 5 of 9 traits of NPD, which meets the threshold for diagnosis. This explains her total lack of empathy and sense of entitlement. She also has 3 of 7 traits of ASPD. While this technically makes her diagnosable, she is not full ASPD because she has been able to keep a job for decades and has not been arrested multiple times. However, it does explain her repeated violence against me and treating me like an object rather than a person. It also explains her shallow and performative emotion outside of fear and rage.

This makes her what is referred to in popular terms a "malignant borderline." She is not a typical BPD by a long shot. There have never ever been frantic "mea culpas" and desperate attempts at repair or trying to draw me back in with promises of change. It is simply abuse, silent treatment, and then acting like nothing happened. I am expected to just go along with it and "reset to normal" after a period of abuse/silent treatment. This is a large part of why I have C-PTSD, but also why it has been easier than most to break free emotionally. There is no trauma bond that has been reinforced by periodic "good periods," there is only the storm punctuated by brief periods of calm while bracing for the next storm to roll in.

My therapist says that this "witches brew" of BPD/NPD with significant ASPD traits means that she is either lying about being in therapy, or it is merely performative and is an attempt to reel me back in because her old tactics of abuse no longer work on me. She also said that people like my wife usually drop therapy after 5 to 7 sessions because this is when the therapist has noticed inconsistencies in their victim narrative, suspect a cluster B disorder, and gently start to have the patient focus on working on themselves. Cluster Bs cannot take this kind of self-examination and accountability and quit therapy at this point. There is almost zero chance (if she actually is in therapy) that it will last. She says she has had 3 sessions, so I will know if it falls apart in the next month.

The hard part for me is that I am a good person to a fault. Even if there is zero chance of therapy working, I am struggling with feeling some obligation to stay and see it through to failure on the off chance that is actually in therapy and that it starts working. I am not holding out hope, I am just struggling with staying true to my morals/values which would make me feel guilt about exiting if she is finally making progress. This would throw off my meticulous plans for how and when to exit. I know that it is very, very unlikely to happen, but after all I have been through I feel the need to plan for every eventuality. How do I justify leaving, to myself, on the small chance that she does continue therapy and make progress (no matter how unlikely)?

The other part of my question is related to her increasing desperation as my boundaries become rock solid and she is realizing that this is different than other times that I have put distance between us. I have lived in my room (formerly the guest room) for over 8 months now. We have not been intimate in that time. I have also stopped engaging with her entirely as soon as she becomes dysregulated. I simply say "get out of my room," "leave me alone," or "I'm leaving now" and end arguments before they even start. I am not trying to validate any more. The days of trying to repair are over. It was only ever effort on my part anyway, she never met me half way. As she is finally realizing that I have pulled away permanently, she is freaking out.

Her abusive behavior no longer works and it has become very uncomfortable for me to live in the same house with her. I am counting down the days to filing for my TPO, temporary custody, exclusive use of the marital home, and divorce, in that order. If all goes to plan, and my plans have been meticulous, my attorney assures me that the day that the TPO is served is the last time I will ever have to talk to her or be in the same room with her. Any custody communications would be handled through OurFamilyWizard or a similar app. My status as an abuse survivor who suffers from C-PTSD is taken seriously in my state and the judge should allow my attorney to appear in my place and shield me from having to be in the same room as my abuser. Any advice on how to get through the next six months of having her sleeping in the next room, extremely dysregulated much of the time, would be very appreciated.

HurtAndTired

[ForeverDad]

How do I justify leaving, to myself, on the small chance that she does continue therapy and make progress (no matter how unlikely)?

How much would she have to improve for you to decide to remain with her?  I can't imagine she could become sufficiently mindful, calmer, introspective that quickly.  As is often said here, promises and hopes are meaningless unless proven by actions over time.

A prolific poster here when I arrived years ago, JoannaK, said this: If persons do work to attain some recovery then they would not be the same persons as before and there was a real possibility the relationship would not survive, one or both had changed that much.

So even if your spouse did improve to some extent, it's not just a matter whether it would be sufficient improvement, but she would be a different person, the relationship dynamic would be different and the marriage could still fail.  So her managing to restrain herself, even that, might not be enough to make your marriage a success.

The other part of my question is related to her increasing desperation as my boundaries become rock solid and she is realizing that this is different than other times that I have put distance between us... If all goes to plan, and my plans have been meticulous, my attorney assures me that the day that the TPO is served is the last time I will ever have to talk to her or be in the same room with her.

I am very worried that the longer this simmering impasse continues, the more likely she is to at some point to sense that you're contemplating legal action and she would be very likely to try to "frame you for mischief".  Many here had "plans" but the other sabotaged them.  Your lawyer's positive perspective is great but your spouse can easily cook up allegations and as a female courts and agencies will feel compelled to protect her from claimed abuse, at least initially, even if it is unsubstantiated.

In my case, I recorded her threatening my life and that got me temp possession of the home but until our divorce's final decree she had temp custody and majority parenting time of our preschooler.  And during all that time she made repeated unsubstantiated allegations against me and (as I would 'joke' about this to others) each time they investigated as though this time it might stick.

So I repeat, the closer you come to trigger time, the more careful you have to be not to let something slip about your plans, meanwhile doing absolutely nothing to lend basis to any false allegations.  Sadly, the other will sabotage you if she can.  Hers is a negative world and she will want to keep you there with her.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother had the same combination of BPD/NPD/ASPD traits with BPD being the more predominant. I think the "push pull" dynamic still existed but it was in this context. The "pull" didn't include an apology. But we could see a "switch" into her "nice" persona from the dysregulated one and back and forth. The "nice" persona felt eerie. It didn't seem real.

If she was in that persona- it was the signal that we should not speak about what just happened and act as if it didn't. Or she'd just skip the "nice" persona and act as if nothing happened and we were expected to act like that too. The push pull is a dynamic between two people. During these times, we felt the pull, the obligation. It's possible you do too.

As to therapy- I can only describe one person- and while BPD and DBT were not known in her younger years, she did have access to therapy and treatment in recent times too but it didn't result in behavioral changes on her part. She could not perceive that perhaps she was a part of the issues with people. It was someone or something else that was the reason.

I also agree with FD to keep your plans as secret as possible and that the behaviors can escalate the closer you get to the time of leaving.

[HurtAndTired]

Thank you FD and Notwendy,

I am not going to tip my hand. My plans are only discussed with my DV advocate, my attorney, my therapist, and my parents. Three of those four parties are barred from saying anything about our discussions by law, and my parents won't spill the beans. Nothing is written down. All of my electronics are password and biometrically protected. If I'm being honest, I have things locked down better than I ever have in the 13 years of my relationship. I am just getting increasingly uncomfortable as I get closer to "D day." My dBPDw was recently gone for 10 days visiting relatives out of state and I got a taste of what life will be like without constantly looking over my shoulder and cringing whenever I hear an unexpected noise in the house. It was wonderful and I slept a lot during that week and a half. Now that she is back, I am noticing how much pressure her presence causes in my life and am longing to have that stress removed again.

The reality is that I have made it through 13 years of abuse and I can survive five more months. I am just impatient for the day of freedom for me and my son to hurry up and get here. The behaviors that grate on me so much today would have been seen by my former self just a few years ago as minor (even perhaps as being one of the "good times") and the fact that they bother me at all today are a testament to how far I have come in my journey of independence. I am no longer afraid of her, I am just exhausted by her tantrums and my patience for putting up with them has evaporated. I also am acutely aware of the stress she is causing my mind and body and the unhealthy impact that it has on me. I swear that I could feel my blood pressure rising and the stress headaches returning the night before she came back from her trip. I realized that before she was gone, that was my baseline. I never stopped to consider how awful I felt daily until I had a chance to recover and feel "normal" for over a week. The contrast is stark. If I were to stay, I have no doubt that it would end with heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes, ongoing mental health issues, etc. and would shave years off my life, not to mention drastically reducing my quality of life.

I am going to think of myself as a secret agent deep behind enemy lines, awaiting extract. I am almost done with the mission. I just can't get sloppy now because I am impatient for it to be over.

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

I am going to think of myself as a secret agent deep behind enemy lines, awaiting extract. I am almost done with the mission. I just can't get sloppy now because I am impatient for it to be over.

HurtAndTired

It's not only with you. Your child can sense the situation too.

We learned to not reveal what we wanted or plans with BPD mother. We kids were afraid of BPD mother. We also walked on eggshells around her. I could also see that my father was stressed.

Some of my best memories are of outings with Dad on his own. He seemed more relaxed. Family outings with BPD mother were different.

If you create an emotionally safe setting for yourself in your own place, it will also be a safe setting for your child.

In the meantime, is it possible to install a lock on your bedroom door? It probably locks on the inside, but when you aren't there- locking it from the outside could keep your belongings safer.

[HurtAndTired]

Notwendy,

Installing a lock on the outside of the door is a great idea, but I am afraid that it would tip her even further into  dysregulation at this point. I am trying to manage her increasing distress as she senses me pulling away. I think that I am going to wait a few weeks for her to stabilize before I try to do anything new. I am a teacher and am home for the summer break which has increased the amount of time that we have to be together in the house on her days off, which is really increasing her distress. I will be back at work full-time in about a month, so I think that will give her a chance to return to baseline. I am thinking that I can buy a locking cabinet (metal) that I can place my electronics and medications in at that time. She won't like it, but I can frame it as a safety measure for S4. I am locking away medications (including injectables/syringes/needles) so that he can't accidentally get into them. Right now I am keeping my electronics locked in my car.

The advice that I have received from you all has been in line with what my research says, which is that the final few months of breaking away from a cluster B person are the most dangerous. They are hyper-attuned to non-verbal cues and can more accurately read facial expressions than most regular people. They sense that the end is near and become highly volatile and unpredictable. I am seeing this phenomenon in action.

My wife definitely senses that something has changed and that I am no longer playing the game the same way. Going forward I am going to intentionally feed her some "supply" to keep her strategically more regulated. For example, I will offer her unsolicited complements on things like cleaning the house or doing something for S4. "I really appreciate that you..." is a good template to follow. I am not going to go into "full supply" mode though. I will not be engaging in arguments or making gestures at trying to repair the relationship as that would also seem suspicious at this point. I will be feeding her scraps, just to help keep her regulated while I continue to move forward with my plans.

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

As much as I think it's better to be honest, sometimes it isn't safe to do so. I agree with what you are doing to keep yourself safe. Reasonable people play by reasonable rules. When NPD/ASPD is the situation, their rules are different, and the playing field isn't even. I don't condone being purposely hurtful but if you have to placate her in this situation, it's self defense.

BPD mother did not resort to physical abuse but she did destroy property that we valued so we could not let on if we liked or wanted something. I agree with having a way to lock up your personal items.


 

[CC43]

Hi there,

First, I'm very impressed with the progress you have been making on many fronts.  Cutting out the drinking gives you calm and probably improves your overall health, enabling you to build strength, sleep better and/or think more clearly.  Getting your financial house in order will give you more options, in addition to making you feel more secure.  And I love the fact you carved out a space for yourself in your home.  I did that a while back and found it was life-changing, in that I gained much-needed privacy, calm and a sense of protection/independence behind a closed door.

I'd say the pwBPD in my life is the petulant subtype.  Like your wife, she never apologizes.  But she will return to a semi-"normal" state at times.  Typically she'll pretend like she didn't have a meltdown at all, that she didn't do, say or text hurtful things.  I think that's because she feels guilty, and any outward sign of compunction would feel overwhelming to her.  Plus, she clings to the victim narrative, which means she has an excuse for all her bad behaviors (it is always someone else's fault . . .), even if, deep down, she recognizes that her reaction was disproportionate.  Maybe she thinks is that if she forgets about her transgressions, you will too?  If you dare bring them up, she'll just have another meltdown.

Fortunately, the pwBPD in my life has gotten extensive therapy, and I've seen major improvements.  But I believe she has a critical advantage vis-a-vis your wife.  She got therapy at a relatively young age, when her dysfunctional behaviors totally derailed her life.  She learned the hard way that her adult tantrums and lashings out basically ruined her life.  With therapy, she was able to turn her life around (mostly), and learn some better coping techniques, though she doesn't necessarily use them all the time.  It may be that for your wife, her tantrums are richly rewarded, by getting her what she wants (living rent-free? getting you to do all the homecare and childcare? garnering your attention 24/7?).  And it may be that she has been acting this way for so long, it's all she knows.  The behavior might be so ingrained that it seems impossible to change it.  Needless to say, change is hard for most people, but changing one's personality, general outlook on life and daily behaviors is very challenging indeed, especially when the default assumption is that others are to blame.  Now, it's possible your wife would promise to work on herself, in order to get something out of you, because she's being manipulative.  It's also possible that she could be sincere about working on herself.  But there is the rub--it's WORK.  It takes commitment, resolve and perseverance through the inevitable setbacks.

Here's one thing I do, not just with the cluster-B types in my life, but generally.  I don't focus as much on words and moods as I do on actions.  For example, though the pwBPD in my life tends to be moody and petulant, is she nevertheless doing what she's supposed to be doing?  Is she getting up in the morning, showering daily, eating right, keeping her environment tidy, taking care of her charges, not skipping her therapy sessions, going to work and socializing?  If she's doing all that consistently (more often than not), I can take the hateful glares and the petulant sulkiness.  To me, a worse scenario would when she pretends to be nice for a moment, but spends all day every day rotting in bed, using illicit drugs and living like a slob.  Because you know what?  Over time, rotting in bed will make her feel rotten, guaranteed.  Now I understand this scenario of prioritizing actions over words and moods might not work for you, because you have a young son.  But what I'm trying to say is that words are cheap . . . if she really wanted to work on herself, she'd actually do the work, consistently.

Just my two cents.  Hang in there.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother did have therapy in her younger years but it wasn't specifically for BPD as that wasn't known yet. She did have therapy over the years. She would stay with it if it meant a way to get the medication she liked (valium type medicine). Other times she didn't follow through with it. It didn't seem to work for her.

I know that DBT is said to be effective for BPD but the PD's can overlap and I wonder how this impacts the effectiveness of therapy. I don't know of research evidence myself (perhaps your therapist does) but I think one reason that therapy didn't work with her is that she's a mix of the PD's and I think the NPD/ASPD aspects/traits may lessen the likelyhood that therapy would be effective. Knowing this might help you to stay firm with your decision even if your wife says she's going to therapy.

[HurtAndTired]

Your instincts are right Notwendy. If she only had BPD, my wife would have a 30%-50% chance of recovery if she underwent intensive therapy for ~10 years. If you add in the NPD and ASPD traits (she has 7 of 9 BPD traits, but also has 5 of 9 NPD traits - enough for full diagnosis, and 3 of 7 ASPD traits - barely clearing the threshold for diagnosis) she only has around a 1% chance for recovery. The NPD and ASPD traits make a person extremely resistant to therapy because they are incapable of doing the self examination and taking the accountability that is necessary for therapy to have any effect.

I know that my wife's particular mix of cluster B traits is fairly uncommon (to the degree she has them) but I also know that pwBPD almost always have comorbid traits of other cluster B disorders. My wife is technically a "cluster B hybrid" although her main diagnosis is BPD. I wonder how many of us on these boards have SOs who significantly suffer from more than one cluster B disorder? I also wonder if being more explicit about the symptoms and looking outside of the "BPD playbook" might not help drive better advice from others?

For example, my wife is incapable of empathy and never has made "desperate attempts at repair," neither of which are typical for pwBPD. Most people with "just" BPD can feel empathy (although not in the same way that nons do) and (at least at times) apologize profusely and make grand gestures of trying to change to try and repair after an episode of dysregulation. Early on in the process of coming to terms with her PD, I tried everything to repair the relationship.

Two years on, I can see that none of that had any chance of working due to the nature of my wife's particular combination of cluster B traits. I do not regret the time I spent learning and trying to repair, however, because I learned so much about myself and the nature of cluster B disorders in the process. Although it does make me wonder if it wouldn't be helpful to have a checklist of the various traits of BPD, NPD, ASPD, and HPD for people to peruse on site so that they can look for traits of other cluster B disorders outside of BPD? Because most of our pwBPD are going to have at least a few traits of other cluster B disorders, knowing their particular "flavor" could help people ask for more specific advice and for others to give it in a more targeted way. Something for us to all think about.

[Notwendy]

In addition, the characteristics can be on a spectrum. For comparison- my BPD mother had 9/9 full criteria for BPD. 7/9  criteria for NPD so she met criteria for both but more of them for BPD and her BPD behaviors seemed to be the more predominant ones. 6/7 of what I saw as lesser on the spectrum for ASPD- more as traits compared to her BPD/NPD behaviors. She had a disregard for rules but not to the extent of breaking the law. She was able to charm and manipulate. She didn't show empathy or remorse.

I agree- I think it would be helpful for people to know the statistics of response to therapy according to where a person is on the spectrum of cluster B.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I happen to have people in my life who are diagnosed with BPD on the one hand and undiagnosed with NPD on the other.  In my experience, many of the behaviors/symptoms overlap:  delusional thinking, twisting of the truth/outright lying, constant craving of attention, apparent lack of empathy, all take and no give in relationships, manipulative behavior, demandingness, projection, inability to appreciate someone else's perspective, holding extreme beliefs, showing misplaced anger.  In relationships, the BPD and NPD tend to use other people to get what they want/need, and I think it leads to very chaotic, one-sided relationships while they last.  With the two people I know, when their untreated behaviors tipped towards the extreme end of the spectrum, their entire lives began to fall apart, with adverse consequences for overall health, long-term unemployment and disintegration of social relationships (e.g. losing all friends).  Add self-medication with illicit substances to the mix, and the living situations deteriorated even further, warranting multiple wellness checks.  Police and ambulance intervention became a recurring phenomenon, not a one-time fluke.

A key difference I've noted however lies in their opinion of themselves.  With BPD, the self-talk is overly negative--she's extremely insecure, and deep down she thinks she's worthless/incompetent/helpless/clueless/horrible, while she assumes everyone thinks that of her too.  That could be why she's constantly looking for reassurance from others, and when she doesn't get what she needs, she's heartbroken.  She's basically an emotional mess most of the time.  In contrast, the pwNPD thinks he's special, and it shows in most of his personal interactions:  he only talks about himself, rules don't apply to him, others should kowtow to him, others should admire and serve him.  He runs cold--he's more of a thinker than a feeler.  Nevertheless, the end result is that both crave unwavering attention and support from others, but since that's impossible, they also push people away with their self-centered/self-serving behavior.  Maybe with superficial encounters they can appear to be normal, possibly even alluring, but with close relationships, they show their "psycho" side--not behaving according to predictable norms, being overly aggressive/demanding, seeming mentally twisted, lacking empathy, making extreme threats.  Both seem to want to exact retribution, and appear to relish hurting others, but for the pwBPD, I think she's looking to unleash her own pain onto someone else, whereas the pwNPD needs to establish dominance in my opinion.

I think that since the pwBPD is insecure and feels so badly about herself, that she could give therapy a try.  She might even enjoy getting in touch with her feelings, if her therapist validates her victim attitude while teaching her better emotional coping skills.  But I have doubts that a pwNPD would ever take therapy seriously, because in his mind, he's special, close to perfect.  Even if he encountered serious problems in his life, he'd have a million excuses as to why they weren't really his fault.  Even if he did try therapy, I bet he'd think he was above it--for starters, he's smarter than the therapist, and talking about feelings would feel like a waste of time and money.

Just my two cents based on my lived experience.

[zachira]

In a situation like yours, it is very important to be aware of how domestic violence (DV) laws work in your area. In the United States after many years of partners dropping charges of DV, now the area with legal jurisdiction brings the charges, and it is required to arrest one partner if both partners are there when the police arrive. The man is usually arrested as he is considered to be the most dangerous because of how much stronger he is than a woman, unless the woman has a weapon like a gun. Do consult with your lawyer how to best protect yourself from unfounded charges of domestic violence, as many woman with BPD/NPD traits out of desperation claim there is domestic violence when there is none.

[Notwendy]

I actually found BPD when looking up NPD on the internet. There was a man in our community who was difficult to deal with and I wanted to know why. He was NPD. But he also was different from my mother in that he was more functional. He had a leadership position in his career, had a family (I don't know what went on at his home with them though)

When reading about NPD, I thought this sounds similar to my mother but it's not. She also perceived herself as entitled, but in addition, her ability to be functional was low. There were self injurious behaviors, addictions, dissociative rage episodes, easily insulted and perceived herself as a victim, unstable self image. The next link was BPD and so I clicked on that. She fit every criteria.

Some of her behaviors were consistent with ASPD traits but they were not as predominant as the BPD ones. She seemed like a mix of all three but it was the BPD characteristics that were most troublesome for her.

[PeteWitsend]

I actually found BPD when looking up NPD on the internet. There was a man in our community who was difficult to deal with and I wanted to know why. He was NPD. But he also was different from my mother in that he was more functional. He had a leadership position in his career, had a family (I don't know what went on at his home with them though)

When reading about NPD, I thought this sounds similar to my mother but it's not. She also perceived herself as entitled, but in addition, her ability to be functional was low. There were self injurious behaviors, addictions, dissociative rage episodes, easily insulted and perceived herself as a victim, unstable self image. The next link was BPD and so I clicked on that. She fit every criteria.

Some of her behaviors were consistent with ASPD traits but they were not as predominant as the BPD ones. She seemed like a mix of all three but it was the BPD characteristics that were most troublesome for her.

I initially heard of BPD when I reached out on a marriage chat board to ask whether my continual problems with my then-wife were typical ("All couples fight!" she liked to tell me), or there was something else going on in our case.  She did seem to fit most of the BPD criteria, although she didn't have drug/alcohol problems, and as far as I could tell, didn't engage in risky behavior.  And she didn't seem hapless; I could tell she was very calculating in what she did, whether it was pick a fight, throw a fit, break into tears, etc.  And there was a mean, vindictive edge to her, so I suspect BPD with some overlap of ASPD.  I don't think it's really possible to say for sure, and in the end, given their resistance to recognizing it as an issue and getting help, sort of meaningless to focus on, except for discussion purposes.  I had to remind myself to focus on getting out and avoiding further issues, rather than trying to understand her. 

I had a later relationship that I suspect was closer to BPD, as in she genuinely seemed to lose control of her emotions and jumped from one emotion to another without regard for how ridiculous she looked to other adults.  Fortunately, I got out of that one without marriage...  but it still lasted longer than it should have. 

They're all Cluster B Personality Disorders for a reason, I guess.  As I understand it, this is all a still-developing area of psychology, and clinical views of it have shifted dramatically over the last 50-60 years.

I think the challenge for the psychology profession is finding a way to get these permanently damaged or maladjusted people into therapy.  And the challenge for humanity at large is keeping them out of leadership positions.  It's unfortunate that the best we can seem to do right now is learning to avoid entanglements with them on a personal level, but they will of course still go on to fool and manipulate others who aren't as fortunate or do not yet know to look for these sort of traits. 

[PeteWitsend]

... Although it does make me wonder if it wouldn't be helpful to have a checklist of the various traits of BPD, NPD, ASPD, and HPD for people to peruse on site so that they can look for traits of other cluster B disorders outside of BPD? Because most of our pwBPD are going to have at least a few traits of other cluster B disorders, knowing their particular "flavor" could help people ask for more specific advice and for others to give it in a more targeted way. Something for us to all think about.

This could be the case.  I think a lot of the stuff written about BPD here, and in books, like "Stop Walking On Eggshells" wouldn't help much to the extent there are more malevolent instincts at work, as in ASPD.  Indeed, when dealing with BPDxw, I found that if she was in the mood for a fight, the techniques on avoiding conflict and listening with empathy would only work for a brief period of time until she found something else to rage about.  I resented the advice from people that seemed to imply it was my fault if - knowing these techniques - we were still fighting.  Like I must not be doing them right.  But truth be told, she LIKED to fight, and on occasion even admitted that she needed strong emotional responses from me and preferred that to me being calm and relaxed, which she paradoxically found threatening.