Do pwbpd hear voices?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My husband keeps saying things like “ something keeps telling me ….”So I asked him to explain and he said it’s his gut feeling that has never steered him wrong. When he splits he says that something is telling him people are using him, are out to get him and that I’m trying to embarrass him, holding secrets, am a liar , cheater etc. He describes it as an overwhelming feeling intuition. Is this common ?

[Pinkcamellias]

My husband keeps saying things like “ something keeps telling me ….”So I asked him to explain and he said it’s his gut feeling that has never steered him wrong. When he splits he says that something is telling him people are using him, are out to get him and that I’m trying to embarrass him, holding secrets, am a liar , cheater etc. He describes it as an overwhelming feeling intuition. Is this common ?

[CC43]

When the pwBPD in my life is under a lot of stress, she has occasionally experienced paranoia and delusions, fearing that people are out to get her.  It seemed that she temporarily lost touch with reality. These episodes ended with her being hospitalized, until she stabilized.

While these episodes were relatively rare, I’d say that she frequently feels overwhelmed by life, basically any time she’s not technically on vacation. “Overwhelming” and “anxious/anxiety” are words she uses regularly.  I doubt she hears voices, but she does experience heightened emotions which I’d say are often out of proportion to the situation.

Hope that perspective helps.

[HurtAndTired]

Yes. PwBPD can and do experience transitory psychosis when they are extremely dysregulated. These episodes can result in hallucinations, both visual and auditory (although auditory hallucinations are much more common). My wife has hallucinated on multiple occasions where she hears voices. Only once, that I know of, she had a visual hallucination and saw "tiny knives coming through the window."

[Pinkcamellias]

Thank you both for your insight and sharing your personal experience.

[Notwendy]

I have always thought that is why it's called borderline- as sometimes the episodes can approach the line of psychosis but it's not a psychosis like schizophrenia. Since I also have known someone with schizophrenia, I can see a difference.

With the person who has a full psychosis- if she doesn't take her medicine, the things she tells me are obviously not real - like hearing or seeing things that aren't there, but to her, they are real. The same medication isn't given for BPD (there's no specific medicine just for BPD)

With my BPD mother, she expressed a feeling or intuition as you described- and to her it seemed real, because to someone with BPD, feelings feel like facts.

But I did not hear BPD mother say things like the person with schizophrenia has said- like there are men in her basement attacking her (there's nobody there) or someone is shooting radio waves at her. It's sad to hear that person say these things as she's genuinely scared - but there's nothing real about that and yet to her it is.

When BPD mother was in a dissociative state, it seems she was not connected to reality in the moment and may have inaccurate thoughts, but there was still a difference between her and the person I know with schizophrenia. BPD mother was still partly in reality even during these episodes. She didn't actually hear voices that aren't there.

[Pinkcamellias]

NotWendy I appreciate the clarification as to the difference because that was my next question . Aside from reassuring them what can loved ones do? I don’t know how to show sympathy when’s he’s raging at me. It usually so mind boggling I don’t feel the need to defend myself and my initial reaction is to get away. There’s usually physical intimidation involved and the less of a reaction he gets out of me the angrier he appears to be. But if I try to defend myself I feel that’s showing culpability.

[CC43]

Hi there,

Another angle to consider is that of projection.  If your loved one is accusing you of things that are patently untrue, it may be that he's projecting his own distorted feelings onto you.  An example might be accusing you of lying or cheating--that could be a sign that he's thinking seriously about lying or cheating on you, and he's so consumed by those thoughts that they are ever-present in his mind, and he releases them as accusations.  For the loved one with BPD in my life, she's consumed by thoughts of feeling inferior, dependent and childish.  Therefore she's "primed" to detect any instances of condescension, insults, being judged or feeling treated like a child, even if nothing of the sort was ever intended.  Her projections come out as bizarre accusations, like "You're incredibly rude to offer me water, stop treating me like a baby," followed by raging, threatening texts.

To illustrate, one of the first times I experienced projection was at a party, where a person who was recovering from cancer stated, "This party has metastasized."  I thought to myself, that's a really weird way to put it, and in an indirect way she's communicating how consumed she must be by dealing with cancer.  After that experience, I became more sensitive to how people were expressing their thoughts, and maybe I learned to read between the lines a bit better.  Though technically I didn't know about projection at the time, now I see it a lot with BPD.

I think that one angle for understanding BPD better is that feelings are overwhelming, and oftentimes confusing, too, because the pwBPD doesn't have a strong sense of identity.  I think the feelings are so strong that they need an outlet, and they typically end up directed at a family member.  I'd say, do you want to know what is bugging your family member?  Try to listen for the feelings that are expressed, not necessarily the facts.  Accusations of infidelity could indicate that he's thinking about that, or maybe that he feels extremely insecure in his relationship.  He might think that he's such a terrible partner that you'd be tempted to cheat on him, and so he'll beat you to the punch and accuse you for something he thinks you're bound to do anyway.  Does that make any sense?

[CC43]

Hi again,

In response to your next question, how to handle the accusations, I can relate my own experience.  My husband doesn't have BPD, but I think he displays some of the traits when he's under a lot of stress.  There have been times that he demanded to know if I was seeing someone else, and he would make accusations by yelling, screaming and swearing, plus using physical intimidation, much like a bully.  It was almost like he was trying to bully me into making a false confession.  Now, if you knew me, you would know that an accusation of cheating is totally uncalled for.

I've learned that there is no use arguing when my husband is riled up like this.  Logic doesn't work at all--any attempt to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) only makes matters worse.  I find it's best to completely exit the situation.  If he follows, looking for a fight, I extract myself again.  I say as little as possible.  If I'm stuck in a car with him when he's like this, I'll be as calm and still as a gray rock.  If he ask, Don't you have anything to say for yourself?!?  I'll respond, let's wait to discuss this when we're home/not driving.  Basically, I disengage when he's overly emotional.  And since he is not BPD, eventually he'll calm down.  He'll even be apologetic, and recognize that his response was over-the-top.  Yet only when he's absolutely calm will I engage with him, and say something like, I'm surprised you think I'm cheating on you, because I choose to live with you every day.  I love you and I choose you.  I haven't given you any doubts, have I?  I'm always home with you at night, I don't have people calling or texting at random times, I've never been flirty with other guys, right?  Not even once!  I have been nothing but committed to you.  You shouldn't have to worry.  Is that really what's bothering you?  Tell me, what's going on.  And then he'll usually reveal what's really going on, like feeling that I outshined him in some way (making him feel inferior/insecure), or that he's really stressed out over his BPD daughter--usually, something that makes much more sense than accusing me of ridiculous things.  But since he's not BPD, he can eventually calm down, and we can have that conversation.  I'm not sure that pwBPD can do that very well.

I hope that insight might help you in some way.

[Pinkcamellias]

You’re definitely right . Once the splitting episode has come to a head he begins to morphe back into the person I fell in love with he’ll explain his insecurities and how he can’t understand why I don’t cheat to fulfill the emotional and financial stability he lacks . I reassure him, everything is all loving and back to normal and the next day (literally) he’ll wake up angry, start  calling me names and the entire “ your all bad and can’t be trusted” scenario plays out again. I feel like I allow the insanity by participating in the endless cycle. It’s exhausting. I use to have a month or so in between episodes now it’s hours.

[pantherpanther]

I can't comment on whether it is common, but mine most definitely claims to hear voices.  Coinciding with vivid dreams of self-harm.  In her darkest periods, especially when grappling with shame.  She's only recently shared this, so I don't know if it is recent and acute or has always been there, hidden.

[PeteWitsend]

The only specific time BPDxw confided in me anything about hearing voices was when we were dating and she smoked weed.  She told me she didn't like it because when she did it, she heard "voices telling her terrible things."  In retrospect, that was a big  !!

I found that revealing.  During her better moments, she was "high functioning" as far as pwBPD go.  I mean, she was professionally incompetent, and I would not trust her to actually do anything for me, but in today's "fake it til you make it" world, that wasn't really a hindrance to her career.  She could appear competent, friendly, well put together, etc., and was great at recognizing and blending in with the environment in a way.  For example, she was from Europe, but started listening to country music and adopted the kind of aesthetic of the local conservative housewives when we moved to the South. 

I suspect though, given from the breakdowns she'd have and the way she was constantly sizing up  other people and putting them down, that her mind was actually an unpleasant place to be.  It was like there was nothing there but self-doubt and hate, and if she couldn't make herself feel superior to someone, she had to either cut them down or avoid them altogether because she couldn't stand the feelings of inferiority it would create.  Paradoxically she constantly sought out contact with others; she couldn't be alone.  I imagine - given her poor self image - being alone with her thoughts was torture.

[ForeverDad]

I have always thought that is why it's called borderline- as sometimes the episodes can approach the line of psychosis but it's not a psychosis like schizophrenia.

Oops, I wouldn't have described it as well nor as eloquently.  I view borderline as not normal but not extreme enough to merit institutionalization or incarceration.

The projection is obvious.  And their "gut feeling" is linked to the self-oriented moods, subjective feelings and more.

We shouldn't be responsible for their state of mind, it is enough for us to care for ourselves.  Falling into caregiver roles can be a trap that can easily keep us in an unhealthy dynamic.

[Notwendy]

Perhaps it's because I know someone with schizophrenia that I can see a difference. This is a person who had a psychotic break down at a later age. I don't know the cause. She wasn't like this before. It was really sad. Prior to this, she seemed quite normal.

During one of her episodes, she will frantically call people she knew as friends until she reaches someone. Occasionally that's been me. She isn't raging, she isn't making accusations, she isn't doing anything harmful to people (perhaps some people are when they do this). She is scared. She really believes that someone is shooting radio waves at her. Part of her conversation sounds "real" because her feelings are real to her, and then elements like this are woven into it.

It doesn't hurt anyone's feelings because it's so bizzare and unbelievable, it's not something taken personally. It also doesn't serve a function for her. It's not an emotional release and it's not a projection.

There's nothing anyone can say to her to get her out of this. She's stuck in this thinking. Telling her it's not real isn't helpful. The only thing I know to do to help her is to call someone who is in a responsible position - there are people to call- to come get her and take her to the doctor.

The BPD rages have a different quality to them. They felt personal, if they were directed at me. There's accusations that don't sound disconnected from reality- (even if the person is) because they are linked to situations that happened- but were distorted in their mind. Something like if I said something or did something- it got twisted into what she thought they were, even though it did happen, just not in the way she thought. 

These rages serve a purpose- they are an emotional release valve and projections. There's an end point to them although how long they last and how frequent could vary, and the person generally feels better and acts more normal after that. There's no stopping or controlling them. There's also nothing anyone can say in the moment to change them. For me, it was best to keep a emotional distance, physically and/or emotionally until the person calmed down.

[CC43]

I suspect though, given from the breakdowns she'd have and the way she was constantly sizing up  other people and putting them down, that her mind was actually an unpleasant place to be.  It was like there was nothing there but self-doubt and hate, and if she couldn't make herself feel superior to someone, she had to either cut them down or avoid them altogether because she couldn't stand the feelings of inferiority it would create.  Paradoxically she constantly sought out contact with others; she couldn't be alone.  I imagine - given her poor self image - being alone with her thoughts was torture.

I could have written the exact same thing about the pwBPD in my life!  Not only that, but she's a living paradox, because she has a very poor self image, but also is narcissistic.  She wants romance, and yet she says she's not attracted to anyone . . . because they can't meet her impossible standards.  She demands perfect performance, but it's perfectly OK for her to act *itchy, and then she wonders aloud, why does "everyone" say I'm a *itch?  I guess it comes down to emotional dysregulation and distorted thinking, bordering on delusional thinking.

[awakened23]

My uBPDw does mention "overwhelming gut feelings/intuition" usually in regards to a situation or another person's attitude in a relationship. She uses these to justify her own actions and words. In most cases however I do not agree with those and the "strong gut feeling that will never go wrong" is also used a means to shut down any opposition to her actions. Many relationships have been burnt in this manner.
she also thinks everyone is out to use her, and lying to her/keeping secrets. No way to dispel those feelings.
I can also relate to these statements very well - "she wants romance, and yet she says she's not attracted to me" ,  "can't meet her impossible standards", "demands perfect performance, but it's perfectly OK for her to act *itchy".

[zachira]

My mother with BPD did appear to hear voices at times, though it was not often. I also believe she was in a disassociated state quite a few times, especially when she was under stress. My mother took all kinds of psychiatric medications in the last years of her life and did not take any earlier on. I believe her main issues were severe untreated childhood trauma and BPD. My father tried to get her to see a mental health professional when I was in high school and she refused. It was only when she was elderly and with obviously severe mental health problems that she was under the treatment of a psychiatrist who was known for being proactive in providing counseling therapy for his clients. He tried to give therapy to my mother and gave up. Her biggest obstacles to getting better seemed to be her unwillingness to look at her part in her mental health problems and lack of awareness of how her behaviors negatively affected herself and those around her, especially her children. I have heard that the longer mental health problems remain untreated that the more permanent brain damage there is and the more untreatable the mental health problems become. Most people with severe mental health problems usually have a primary diagnosis along with symptoms of other mental health disorders, that do not meet the full criteria for a diagnosis. It does seem with time that untreated mental illness would lead to more signs of other disorders including more signs of psychosis, though not as severe psychosis as in schizophrenia.

[Notwendy]

What also complicates the picture in an elderly person is that they may be more sensitive to medications and also illness. If my mother began to show delirium behavior- it was one of her medicines or a urinary tract infection.

This behavior was qualitatively different. She would call me up saying she'd been kidnapped and taken to a hotel, she's all alone in the building and all the while she was in her room at assisted living with staff and residents there too.

What also was different was that these were not the usual dissociated rage episodes and sounded more like the calls from the schizophrenic friend. Once she was taken off the medicine that she was reacting to, or given antibiotics if it was an infection, she returned to baseline.

[kells76]

Great discussion 

The book I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help! by Xavier Amador, PhD and our thread about it, could be helpful.

This comment in the thread stood out to me:

It helped me a LOT with emotional validation. I mean, if you can emotionally validate someone who thinks that the neighbors are communicating (by flushing their toilets in certain patterns) their secret plans to kill you, then emotionally validating in the face of mere BPD distortions should be a breeze, right? 


Schizophrenia is the main mental illness in the book (Amador's brother is schizophrenic, and it is a focus of his) but the main concepts of the book are how to cope with a mentally ill loved one.

[HurtAndTired]

I want to make sure we are all of the same page here and are taking the psychotic episodes of pwBPD seriously. For context my brother has schizophrenia and my wife has BPD/NPD with features of ASPD. Both have hallucinations, but my brother has hallucinations that persist longer and occur more frequently..That's about the only difference as far as hallucinations go. They can both hallucinate really far out things.

Audiovisual hallucinations (AVH) are very common in pwBPD and 50% will have them at some point in their lives. Hearing voices is the most common form of AVH for pwBPD.  AVH are usually transitory and occur in moments of extreme distress in pwBPD, but can be recurring and persistent.

It is also very common for pwBPD to have paranoid delusional ideation that is persistent. My wife believes that everyone is talking about her and is out to get her, for example. This ideation has lasted the entire time I've known her. It comes and goes in intensity, but it always seems to be lurking in the background.

BPD was called borderline because early psychologists believed it was on the border between nuerosis and psychosis. People with BPD used to be routinely institutionalized in asylums before the 70s (e.g. Angelina Jolie's character in Girl Interrupted) . BPDs psychotic features are all too frequently overlooked, even by researchers and medical professionals, but a quick Google search will confirm that they are well known, very real, and very serious. The fact that they are so often overlooked means that they aren't being screened for or treated as often as they should be.

BPD is every bit as serious and debilitating as schizophrenia. Worse in some cases. My brother is completely normal as long as he takes his meds. The same can't be said for my wife. PwBPD also have a much higher suicide rate and rate of incarceration for violent crimes than schizophrenics.

[Notwendy]

BPD is every bit as serious and debilitating as schizophrenia. Worse in some cases.

I agree- I am not discounting the seriousness of BPD. In some ways, it's possibly worse because a person with BPD can have a "together" external presentation.This ability may help them to "appear normal" but it also can be the reason they don't get identified.

I agree these conditions are both debilitating and serious. As to how much, I also think there's a spectrum to both. With the people I know with these conditions, I see a qualitative difference to their dissociative episodes, but both are seriously impacted by their conditions. I also realize I am not seeing a large number of people with each to know more.

[Pinkcamellias]

NotWendy that’s been my experience too. Self control around others but Mr. Hyde towards me.

I agree- I am not discounting the seriousness of BPD. In some ways, it's possibly worse because a person with BPD can have a "together" external presentation.This ability may help them to "appear normal" but it also can be the reason they don't get identified.

[Gerda]

This is all very interesting. My exH can also get very paranoid, sometimes bordering on delusional.

Recently the Idaho college murderer, Bryan Kohlberger, got sentenced, and hearing that news story reminded me of how obsessed my husband got with that story when it first happened in 2022. Before they actually caught the killer, he was afraid that this guy was going to come kill us. We live literally thousands of miles away from where this happened, in a completely different region of the country! But every night until they caught the guy that did it, my husband would sleep in a recliner next to the big window in the living room with one of his swords in his hands. I made him lock up his guns in a safe when we had our daughter, but he also has a collection of swords, so I guess that was the next best thing (he told me that before he met me, he used to sleep with one of his guns on his nightstand). He also insisted on keeping all the lights on in the entire house except for the bedroom where me and my daughter would sleep, plus he'd have all the outdoor lights on.

I tried to explain to him that there was almost zero chance that this guy we don't know would travel thousands of miles from Idaho to kill *us* specifically, but then he'd just lecture me on how naïve I am and don't understand how evil people can be.

One morning he even told me that the night before, he heard something in our backyard at like 2 am, and he ran out there with his sword because he was sure it was the killer, but it turned out to just be a raccoon. The weird thing is his tone telling me this story was like that somehow justified his behavior instead of making him sound silly. I wonder what one of our neighbors might have thought if they saw him out there in his underwear waving around a sword in the middle of the night.

I think part of the reason I'm telling this story here is because at the time it just seemed so crazy and delusional to me that it started to get me scared of him losing his grip on reality, but he acted like I was just being dumb for not being as concerned about it as he was. He acted like he was being a great father and husband for protecting us from this danger, and I just didn't appreciate it. I was so relieved when they finally caught the guy so my husband stopped sleeping with a sword in his lap and all the lights on in the house every single night.

[PeteWitsend]

I could have written the exact same thing about the pwBPD in my life!  Not only that, but she's a living paradox, because she has a very poor self image, but also is narcissistic.  She wants romance, and yet she says she's not attracted to anyone . . . because they can't meet her impossible standards.  She demands perfect performance, but it's perfectly OK for her to act *itchy, and then she wonders aloud, why does "everyone" say I'm a *itch?  I guess it comes down to emotional dysregulation and distorted thinking, bordering on delusional thinking.

I think in one sense, the way they hold others to impossible standards they themselves don't come anywhere near meeting is just a defense mechanism to deflect their own poor self image, and insecurity (and FWIW, just simply bad manners). 

I remember BDPxw describing some of my home furnishings as "cheap" after she moved in with me.  Now... this is a person who had literally nothing to her name but debt when we met, and was about to flunk the professional exam she needed to pass in order to work (I paid for her to take it a second and third time)

I remember her childhood friend (who also grew up poor and in nasty conditions), making some remark that I only had art prints in my house, no original art.  Like... you grew up in a hovel, sweety.

In another sense, the impossible to attain standards they hold others to (like their partners) are a simple way to make you keep chasing the carrot.  If only you love them enough, or show they can trust you, or put them first... etc. etc.