With Strong Reinforcement Boundaries Can Work Sometimes!

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have been in the process of going no contact or low contact with most of my large extended family for several years now. Some of the flying monkeys are now honoring the fact that I will not be reestablishing contact with my sister with NPD or putting up with the abuse of other family members. It has taken constant reinforcement and reminders when they have committed terrible transgressions like being told by one flying monkey I deserved to be abused in front of the whole family because I was talking badly about the family when I wasn't. From my experiences, there are basically two kinds of flying monkeys: 1) people who are as abusive as the main abusers whom I have ended up having no contact with as I am no longer invited to any of their family functions or contacted by them, which I am fine with. I don't reach out to them either. 2) people who are capable of changing their behaviors with constant reinforcement and my educating them about how abusive certain family members are.

[zachira]

I have been in the process of going no contact or low contact with most of my large extended family for several years now. Some of the flying monkeys are now honoring the fact that I will not be reestablishing contact with my sister with NPD or putting up with the abuse of other family members. It has taken constant reinforcement and reminders when they have committed terrible transgressions like being told by one flying monkey I deserved to be abused in front of the whole family because I was talking badly about the family when I wasn't. From my experiences, there are basically two kinds of flying monkeys: 1) people who are as abusive as the main abusers whom I have ended up having no contact with as I am no longer invited to any of their family functions or contacted by them, which I am fine with. I don't reach out to them either. 2) people who are capable of changing their behaviors with constant reinforcement and my educating them about how abusive certain family members are.

[Methuen]

To add Zachira's comment, my experience with boundaries is that:
1) they can be emotionally difficult to set (for example setting boundaries for my own mother has been difficult)
2) the other person is going to react to them with extinction burst kind of behaviors and that is more difficult to navigate than setting them in the first place
3) if you can get through the extinction bursts, it does get better.  But in my circumstance where it's my mother and she lives so close, even when it gets better, it never goes away, meaning even with my boundaries, her behaviors don't stop.  But they have lessened for me, especially now that she's in assisted living. Somebody else gets to deal with her and make decisions.

Right now she's choosing to eat like a bird, and then send me texts about how she is losing weight.  She says she doesn't like the food.  The truth is, she never liked any food (anorexic).  And so even when I used to bring her food, she would give it away or throw it out.  Sometimes she would tell me hers tasted better.  So I eventually stopped bringing her food. When the text comes about losing weight, I roll my eyes and move on.  She's an adult.  She's a nurse.  She makes her own decisions.

So boundaries do make things better, potentially significantly better, but it's still a roller coaster at times.  And they never stop finding ways to blame us.  She is blaming me less than she used to, but that's because I only see her once a week, and no longer go alone to these visits.  Those are some of my boundaries.  So for the newbies on the site, this is an example of how boundaries are for US, and not for the other person.

How are boundaries working out for others?

[Notwendy]

I think it helps to keep in mind that boundaries are about us and our behavior. People connected to us may either be respectful of them or not. If someone has a disorder and doesn't respect boundaries, they may continue to challenge them.

As Zachira mentioned- a flying monkey may either choose to align with the disordered person and not respect boundaries or, decide for themselves. Our boundaries are still about us, whatever they do.

In Methuen's situation, the pwBPD still has BPD. They will likely continue with the same dynamics wherever they are. Being in assisted living, they will act out with the people there too.

My BPD mother complained about the food too. She kept snacks in her room. I don't know the rules in your mother's place. They advised her to drink supplemental drinks like Ensure. Residents had to buy their own but she did.

BPD mother also had an eating disorder. She didn't cook much. I was surprised at her dietary choices- both at home and at AL. She'd mostly want to eat cookies. She'd occasionally eat a hamburger.

The food isn't that great in any facility. By contrast though, my MIL did better, gained weight, ate better when she was in one than alone in her own home. She could cook but living alone takes some of the incentive away and she lost interest in cooking and eating much at home. She didn't have an eating disorder.

Another thing BPD mother did which was out of character for her was refuse to shower or bathe. For elderly people, some fear falling- so they have an aide there to help. She wouldn't take a shower even with that. She wasn't depressed or having a reason not to. She just refused.

As to boundaries- we can't control if a person eats or not. We can offer/provide food if we choose. Our boundary would be about that. When my mother told me she didn't like the Ensure drink, I decided to send her a case of another kind.

When I asked her about that, she said she didn't like that drink and decised she liked the Ensure. That's her choice- I sent it, but it's her chooice to like it or not.

My boundary? I wasn't upset about the case of drinks but I also don't like waste and asked if she'd donate it to someone else who likes it. I realized that if she didn't choose the Ensure drink herself, she won't drink it. So I didn't send her more of them. She still had funds to buy them.

Your boundary, Methuen, is what you choose to do. I know you already visit and bring food and snacks but on your schedule. They weigh the residents regularly and if she starts losing too much weight, they will probably suggest extra drinks like Ensure. Otherwise, she has the food they provide for her there.

[zachira]

It is important to notice what level of ability a person has to respect another person's boundaries. With an extremely disordered person with BPD and a close relationship involved like being the daughter of a mother with BPD, there is usually little chance that the mother will ever respect her daughter's boundaries if the mother is at the high end of the BPD spectrum. The boundaries in this type of scenario are about the daughter doing her best to set boundaries to protect her wellbeing the best she can, knowing that there will never be any kind of empathetic reciprocity from her mother.

It is also essential not to see the flying monkeys as all the same. Some will accept push back over a period of time. I have found a number of flying monkeys became more empathetic of my situation of being the scapegoat of my large disordered family, when they found themselves in situations that made them more able to relate to what I was going through. Most of the time the sudden change came from older people who all of sudden were dealing with key changes in their own family system, like both parents passing away, and the siblings acting badly because no parent was there to rein them in, like in my case.

Some flying monkeys hear something like: my daughter doesn't come to visit me, and believe this without verifying the facts. Sometimes a little push back can help, though perhaps it is not always worth it. I say that a person is not really a friend (or trustworthy as an acquaintance) until we have had a disagreement and see how we handle our differences.

It has helped me to realize that most people are uncomfortable saying anything negative about my family or anybody else's family, though some people really do get it, that the behaviors of the disordered family members are distressing and hurtful, they just don't feel comfortable telling me so.