Enabling parent- managing expectations

[sweetlyblessed]

Appreciate this thread! My SIL has designated me as a scapegoat, I married into the family 17 years ago, and she has been here three. She cries to my MIL all the time about how hatefully and hurtfully I treat her and her son, even though I was the best sister she never had until she split on me. I tried really hard and took the one sided aggression for over a year… then I was polite and kind but told her I would not participate in any more angry text or audio messages, but was happy to talk on the phone if she wanted to work things out. More rage and lies to MIL after I wouldn’t reply to her angry texts, and then she “cut me off.”

My MIL is the absolute picture of enabler. She grovels and apologizes every time she threatens to withhold the grandkids from her. She did apologize to me once on her behalf, but generally talks even privately to us like there are just a lot of misunderstandings between she and me. So hurtful, my husband cries a lot, he never does that usually.

We will not risk my kids hearing something they cannot unhear from her or uncle or their older half cousin about how I am racist or evil or a terrible mother or hateful (all things she regularly accused me of). My husband and I agreed to stay away (they moved right next to his parents), but she has now “reached out” to me after a year to show me pics of her baby and say she is thinking of us… of course a response will drag me back into the abusive manipulation, and a nonresponse will have her crying to my MIL about how hateful I am, which my MIL will not support or defend me at all.

We have agreed to stay disengaged unless there is an apology, which we strongly believe will never happen. Even if that happened I would have to spend a LOT of time “rebuilding trust” before my kids can be near her, although I would strongly prefer to just remain no contact as it is my understanding that there is never any trust that can actually be rebuilt. It’s reasonable for us to choose to stay away from them right?

What’s my best answer when my MIL asks me why I won’t reply to her outreach? My husband is an NP and in the beginning gave my MIL more than enough evidence of BPD but she will not hear it.

I know it’s a lose lose for everyone involved, I just want to give her as little power as possible over my relationship with my MIL.

[Pook075]

We have agreed to stay disengaged unless there is an apology, which we strongly believe will never happen. Even if that happened I would have to spend a LOT of time “rebuilding trust” before my kids can be near her, although I would strongly prefer to just remain no contact as it is my understanding that there is never any trust that can actually be rebuilt. It’s reasonable for us to choose to stay away from them right?

What’s my best answer when my MIL asks me why I won’t reply to her outreach? My husband is an NP and in the beginning gave my MIL more than enough evidence of BPD but she will not hear it.

I know it’s a lose lose for everyone involved, I just want to give her as little power as possible over my relationship with my MIL.

Hello and welcome to the forums!  I'm so sorry that you're in this situation and you might receive a variety of opinions from members here.  Some have gone no-contact, some have reconciled, and many are somewhere in-between.  There's no clear answer of right or wrong in this situation, but more what works for your family and brings the most peace.

It's obvious that a relationship with your husband's mom is important to everyone, and going no contact with the sister-in-law hurts the relationship with others.  This is where perspective can help quite a bit- this is not an either/or scenario.  You can have a relationship with your mother in law without supporting the words and actions of your sister in law. 

All the drama, coming from the SIL, has nothing to do with you.  She may say things that are untrue (well, they're true to her in her mental state) and you may feel the need to defend your family- but why? 

For instance, if I say here that I don't like you...well, who cares?  That's my opinion only and you can choose to allow it to affect you or not.  But if you were to reply and defend yourself, then others may wonder, "Huh.  There might be something here to why they're arguing, it might be real."  Then some would take sides and all of this turns into a complete mess.

When my BPD ex wife or BPD daughter says something about me to another family member, I'll simply reply, "I have no idea why they'd <think that>/<feel that way>/<bring that up>/<whatever>."  Then I'll make it known that I have no issues with them and wish them the best.  In other words, I don't defend, deny, or even engage in that topic...I just dismiss it completely and make my well-wishes known.

So when that person says things over and over and over to a 3rd person, yet I say over and over and over that I know nothing about it, the actual problem becomes a lot clearer.  I choose to meet scorn and hatred with compassion and love.

Whether or not you respond to your SIL is completely up to you, but know that waiting for an apology is pointless.  She's mentally ill and believes a warped narrative often, and when you call her out on it (directly or to others) then that forces her to double down...while also proving the narrative within her head to be correct.  There's literally nothing you can do to change the past narratives in her head, but you can change the present by approaching it differently.

My advice, don't fight fire with fire...that burns everything down.  Put out the flames instead and find peace by deescalating the conflict.  Isolating yourselves could literally prove to others everything the DIL has said in the past- that's not the path here.  Facing it head on with compassion and limited communication shifts the blame to the source of the problem.

I hope that helps!

[Notwendy]

My advice, don't fight fire with fire...that burns everything down. 

One thing stood out of your thread and that is - your husband cries a lot. It seems he is dealing with a lot- not only how your mother is treated but also possibly the separation from his brother- due to the marriage to BPD SIL and the conflict with her.

Your MIL, being an enabler, I don't think this just started with SIL. This can be a personality trait. I also had to work on the line between keeping the peace in relationships and enabling/co-dependent behaviors. My MIL also was an enabler type person, but it didn't lead to the kind of issues that I grew up with in my own family due to different personalities in her family. This isn't something you can change- your MIL would need to do this if she wanted to, but it would take some personal work on her part and she may not want to do that.

What your MIL seems to be doing is trying to keep the peace/hold the family together and is enabling due to the situation she's in. My MIL did too. In her large family there were some difficult family members, and she tried to keep the peace for everyone, albeit, a BPD family member is a large challenge.

I'll use Pook's reference to fighting fire with fire. My BPD mother is deceased and it feels as if I am going through the "ashes" of the destruction looking for any relationships that might be potentially intact. I have been in contact with some extended family members and seeing some of the results of disordered dynamics.

Although I did spend time with family on my BPD mother's side when we were children, I hardly know them now. I have reached out to them. Sometimes they reply, mostly they don't. They are busy, have their own separate lives. Our adult children don't know each other. While we don't have conflict, and speak occasionally, it feels more like aquaintances.

On my father's side- I did spend more time with this side of the family and we are still in contact but I also realize we were absent from a lot of family events due to the conflict between BPD mother and them. They seem more willing to remain in contact. The adult children have met and like each other. There seems to be hope here.

What I am trying to say is that- while you think SIL is the problem, how you handle this situation now could have longer lasting repercussions - for your family now- (your H is sad), for your children who won't know their cousins, and who, might decades later, be sorting through the rubble of their broken family too.

I understand the need to protect your children from their BPD aunt. I am sure that was a part of the distancing of my cousins from us. They didn't come to our house. We spent time together at their houses. I also kept boundaries around my children and my mother who also would say negative things about me. I didn't go NC though. The visits with her were supervised.

But to protect them from cousins and what they might hear from them? Cousins say and do all kinds of things but so do kids at school and anywhere else. You, as their mother, are going to have the greater influence on your kids than anything they hear or say from cousins, or on the playground. Of course you intervene if your kids are picking up bad behavior and if they hear something, encourage them to come tell you about it and then you can discuss it.

I will challenge the assumption that replying to the SIL message will bring you back into the abusive behavior. Yes, you will potentially be exposed to SIL's behavior but it also doesn't mean you need to react. In between NC and full contact is LC- low contact- but it doesn't only mean how often the contact is but the emotional content in it. When there's drama, you don't have to participate or react to it. I think boundaries are good- staying at a hotel or airbnb if you visit is a space apart from SIL dropping in next door and gives you some time away from the drama. Replying to the SIL message with something neutral like "oh what a cute baby, thanks for sending the picture" is a possible reply.

Standing your ground on the basis of an apology, it's more likely to be a permanent stance. My BPD mother didn't apologize in the standard way we expect. Her form of apology was to act as if nothing happened. That doesn't help the hurt feelings like an actual apology does but this was the best she could do. I think the SIL sending the picture is possibly her best effort at an apology.

What does your H want to do? This is his family falling apart. Of course, he loves you and his children and his main commitment is you and the children. He's going to honor your wishes but are they what he wants too? While you don't want to give your SIL power, by staying away, she is in power, as she now has split a family. What she can't have power over is your emotional reaction to her. She will behave as she chooses. On your part- your choice is how to respond to that.

[CC43]

Hi Sweetly,

It's really up to you to decide what level of contact with your SIL is appropriate for your family--no contact, minimal contact or maybe contact only when there's a "buffer," such as a public place or with "witnesses" present.  You could decide to stay away from texting and social media, in favor of face-to-face contact in controlled situations.

You are probably right in wanting an apology, because that is the civil thing to do when trying to mend a relationship.  But my opinion is that pwBPD are typically incapable of apologizing, because their distorted thinking twists everything around and makes others the abusers, while they are ALWAYS a victim.  So in their mind, YOU are the one who needs to apologize.  Their twisted logic could be, YOU made me do it!  Obviously your husband is torn up about the whole situation, as he feels the family is fractured, and he probably feels attacked and/or deeply saddened.  He might be mourning the loss of a "normal" family that can hang out together, spend holidays together and have loving bonds across multiple generations.  Clearly you're torn up about it too.

Your MIL probably just wants everyone to be happy together.  Indeed she might be an enabler, perhaps because she wants access to the grandkids.  Maybe she's a highly emotional type of person who seems to enjoy the "drama," and she might be gullible, believing everything that comes out of her DIL's mouth.  But she's wired to be that way, because they are both moms and might bond over that.  My own mom is a little like that, as she's drawn to any type of parental drama, and she enjoys gossiping about family members.  She means well, but in doing that she tends to align with the mom's side of the story, and maybe inadvertently she's increasing the drama through gossip, mutual outrage and judgmental commentary.

I'm not sure what to advise here.  I guess is if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't expect an apology, because BPD means your SIL isn't capable of one.  I'd merely acknowledge the baby pics with a couple of words or an emoticon, but I wouldn't get sucked into text conversations with her--I'm not a big texter anyway.  If your SIL launched into a tirade, I'd extricate myself without responding--you don't engage in crazy making!  I'd go to family events (with a buffer) and act as if nothing had happened.  Chances are, she might act as if nothing happened either, because deep down she might feel embarrassed about her loss of control at the last interaction.  Any time the MIL asks about your relationship with SIL, just be civil about it.  If she pesters and tries to nudge (as my own mother will tend do), I'll say something like:  SIL is an adult, if she wants something she can ask me directly, or:  This is between SIL and me; in other words, I don't get sucked into triangular conversations.  If your SIL invites you to her house, then you could go, but I'd advise to keep visits very short, and definitely sleep somewhere else, so as not to impose too much.  If she protests, just say, "We wouldn't want to inconvenience you--you have enough on your plate already with the kids . . ."  In other words, make everything about HER!

Look, maybe a way to contextualize the situation is to change your expectations.  Untreated BPD can render an adult with a toddler's emotions.  They are impatient, always want to be the center of attention and have meltdowns.  They certainly won't apologize unless forced to or bribed.  If you accept that your SIL behaves like a toddler--she doesn't know any other way--then maybe her behavior won't be surprising and insulting to you.  You could let her have her tantrums, but you quietly exit the scene and/or conversations.  Give her ample time outs to get control of herself.  Fair enough?

I'll close with another piece of advice.  You do NOT need to explain what you are doing, because if you do, it will likely sound like a criticism or blame, which pwBPD can't handle.  You don't say, "I'm leaving the party because you are disrespecting me," or "I'm not conversing with you when you are hostile and swearing at me," because this would mean you're blaming her, and that will only fight fire with fire, as others posters mentioned.  In other words, don't JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain), because JADE is using logic, when pwBPD are emotional, not logical, when they are riled up.  Instead, you disengage in silence, or you make a little excuse (I need to go to the bathroom / feed the dog / get some fresh air).

[TelHill]

Hi sweetlyblessed,

I would grey rock an SIL who behaves like this. I’d give her general information about what’s going on with you and your family. Take a few days to answer her texts in the most general way. Ignore any provocative statements meant to upset you or draw you into drama. It puts you back in the driver’s seat for not being drawn into an immature and combative scenario she wants to pull you into.

It seems to me she wants to smear you with the baser emotions she’s feeling (being racist and just plain no good).  Again, just ignore it and believe in yourself that no sane person would think this about you, including your MIL.

Your SIL may pick another person to upset with and make her enemy if she can’t get traction with you. I’ve seen this happen in my life with my disordered family members when I’ve stepped away from a tug of war. The target doesn’t matter to them.. They just want one.

[CC43]

P.S.
The pwBPD in my life has also accused me of being racist.  I'm not sure why--she didn't refer to any specific incident or behavior; she made the slur in a general way, almost as if she were looking for a fight.  Maybe she thinks I'm arrogant and act superior to others, I don't know.  My response?  "Maybe I am," and I got back to whatever I was doing.  She probably felt vindicated, and I didn't really admit to anything or argue about what she thought constitutes racism.  The good news is that she hasn't brought that up again.  The issue died in the moment.

[sweetlyblessed]

Whether or not you respond to your SIL is completely up to you, but know that waiting for an apology is pointless.  She's mentally ill and believes a warped narrative often, and when you call her out on it (directly or to others) then that forces her to double down...while also proving the narrative within her head to be correct.  There's literally nothing you can do to change the past narratives in her head, but you can change the present by approaching it differently.

My advice, don't fight fire with fire...that burns everything down.  Put out the flames instead and find peace by deescalating the conflict.  Isolating yourselves could literally prove to others everything the DIL has said in the past- that's not the path here.  Facing it head on with compassion and limited communication shifts the blame to the source of the problem.

I hope that helps!

Thank you for your time and response! Clarification and question- I did not mean I believe she will ever apologize, we know she is not capable of doing that! I just meant that would be the only way we would be comfortable giving this another shot.

By not fighting fire with fire, you mean isolation would be doing that? We feel the need to stay away because of our children, we are unwilling to let them get mixed up in the manipulation, and she has a pervasive tendency to isolate them from me, get them alone with her or her son, etc. We feel infinitely uncomfortable with that. Do you have suggestions on how to clarify to my MIL why we feel the need to keep distance from her without feeding the flames?

[TelHill]

Sweetly blessed, If this were me, I wouldn’t say anything to your MIL about your decision because enablers are sometimes fixers. She may feel the need to negotiate a peace. This issue would still be alive and give your SIL a way to attack you. Just don’t go for a bit. Go somewhere else.

There’s a psychological phenomenon that unhealthy family dynamics can fall into known as the Karpman Family Triangle.There are three roles that family members take on - the victim, the rescuer and the persecutor to keep the unhealthy balance going. People can take on different roles depending on the situation. The healthiest behavior when this dynamic is to step out of it, not to participate.

There’s a lot of information online how to remove yourself from the drama of this triangle to enhance your mental well being and resilience.

Here’s a TED talk about it.

https://www.ted.com/talks/lucy_barnes_the_dreaded_drama_triangle

If this helps, I have quite a few disordered relatives and would go with my parents to family get togethers. This kid would get away from weirdo relatives like your sister-in-law.I’d eye roll them and ask for candy or if I could play with my cousin now. If I was somewhat trapped, I’d find my parents & sit next to them. I’d politely zone out. 

I think this is how most kids act. I think we all have gone through similar scenarios.  What do your children say about their aunt?

[TelHill]

I don’t mean to say you should do anything you feel uncomfortable with. I wouldn’t want to be near your SIL either. No one wants their healthy boundaries stomped on.

There are ways to politely and diplomatically not attend functions. Your MIL may be hurt but as all enablers she will accept your choice without complaining too much. There’s always another time to get together in the near future whenever that may be.

[Notwendy]

Thank you for your time and response! Clarification and question- I did not mean I believe she will ever apologize, we know she is not capable of doing that! I just meant that would be the only way we would be comfortable giving this another shot.

By not fighting fire with fire, you mean isolation would be doing that? We feel the need to stay away because of our children, we are unwilling to let them get mixed up in the manipulation, and she has a pervasive tendency to isolate them from me, get them alone with her or her son, etc. We feel infinitely uncomfortable with that. Do you have suggestions on how to clarify to my MIL why we feel the need to keep distance from her without feeding the flames?



I agree with Tell Hill to leave MIL out of this and avoid the Karpan Triangle Dynamics. In addition, it puts her in the middle of her two sons. She doesn't want to choose. With empathy for your MIL- even if she doesn't know a way to go about this (there might not be one right way)- she's watching her family split in two and this has to be distressing to her.

First, I understand your wish to protect your kids from your SIL. My BPD mother also tried to get my kids alone with her. We worked out ways to prevent this- we'd be with them, or ask them to stay together as a group and not go off one on one with her (they prefered this as they felt uncomfortable one on one with her).  As to protecting them from their cousin- is this a harmful situation? If so, then do what you need to do to keep your kids safe.

As to if no contact is using fire, it can be in a way. Deciding between NC and LC each have their costs and benefits. Nobody wins in these decisions. They are all hurtful. The choice is between what is more harmful overall- the contact with the SIL and her family or the divisions and separations in the family. You are choosing between some contact with boundaries for the sake of family connections vs no contact which is breaking connection altogether. In some severe situations, NC is the necessary choice.

If this choice brings you peace of mind, then it's your choice  but I wonder why your H is crying a lot? Is he fully on board with  NC ? This may be easier for you than him. This is his mother and his brother who are impacted. Even if a family is disfunctional, it's hard to be disconnected from them.

[sweetlyblessed]

What does your H want to do? This is his family falling apart. Of course, he loves you and his children and his main commitment is you and the children. He's going to honor your wishes but are they what he wants too? While you don't want to give your SIL power, by staying away, she is in power, as she now has split a family. What she can't have power over is your emotional reaction to her. She will behave as she chooses. On your part- your choice is how to respond to that.

Oh man, lots to think about here, thank you for all of that. At the risk of my husband and I sounding egocentric, he (and me as well) is yes, somewhat sad about what the whole family is going through. But his tears are exclusively over how my MIL has sort of just abandoned us (she and I had been pretty close before this), defending SIL and never accusing me but often being "neutral" which, while I see what she's doing, is a pretty devastating response to one person attacking and defaming another person who keeps taking the abuse and trying to mend the relationship (until I stepped away).

Perhaps we are in error, but it felt like she had a LOT more control over our lives when we were actually going there and she was undermining me and being nasty to me but syrupy sweet to my kids, my MIL, everyone I love. Or when she would call me crying about things and I would try to politely, calmly empathize and support her and then she would gaslight me about what was said, what happened, etc.

What do you think of this view that we have? My husband and I strongly feel that she will use absolutely any type of contact to start the drama again, as she had lashed out and cried to my MIL about how hateful I was over things that literally didn't happen. Or once my husband told my BIL he would call him tomorrow, and she lashed out aggressively about how this proves that I do not accept her as his wife, and how I am a hateful controlling woman- when I literally did nothing and was not referenced in any way. Because of these behaviors, we feel the only way to not be drawn into her triangle is NC whatsoever. I feel confident she will even use our NC to cry to my MIL, but at least she can't "perceive" continual hurtful indictments against me to my MIL if we are just completely absent. Right?

[sweetlyblessed]

Any time the MIL asks about your relationship with SIL, just be civil about it.  If she pesters and tries to nudge (as my own mother will tend do), I'll say something like:  SIL is an adult, if she wants something she can ask me directly, or:  This is between SIL and me; in other words, I don't get sucked into triangular conversations. 

What kind words, thank you. Oh man I love these responses you suggested to my MIL. Direct but exceedingly reasonable, what brilliant replies! It never occurred to me that I have power to also say no to the triangulation coming from my MIL's angle. 

[sweetlyblessed]

Hi sweetlyblessed,

I would grey rock an SIL who behaves like this. I’d give her general information about what’s going on with you and your family. Take a few days to answer her texts in the most general way. Ignore any provocative statements meant to upset you or draw you into drama. It puts you back in the driver’s seat for not being drawn into an immature and combative scenario she wants to pull you into.

Does LC/Grey Rock work if she is someone who has twisted things that I have said to a really deep extreme (appreciates heartfelt support in the moment and says so, then cries to my MIL about how I offered fake support in an effort to actually hurt and disrespect her), or accuses me of hateful intentions in response to other people's words and actions (my husband texted his brother "I will call you tomorrow," and she became furious at how my husband's text obviously indicates that I do not support her as my BIL's wife)...? My husband and I feel that any contact at all from me will be immediately edited/manufactured/twisted as ammunition and taken to my MIL about how terrible I am. To be fair to my MIL, she never believes I have intentionally offended her, but definitely believes I continually accidentally do so. Like my MIL said to me "I think it's just a lot of little things for her." Don't we have the best chance of a healthy relationship with my MIL if she knows we have chosen not to engage at all, so any accusations about me from here on must definitively, by default, have literally no truth in them?

[Notwendy]

I have experienced this kind of thing and as I said, I am sifting through the rubble of broken relationships wondering what may be salvagable.

Like your SIL, my BPD mother rallied my father to her side, in addition to her extended family members around the time of his passing. I had similar concerns as you do- BPD mother possibly taking my kids aside and triangulating. I did get angry at her- it was a stressful situation for all of us. I am human too (as you are). This escalated the situation and the "payback" was hurtful.

I understand your H's situation. It felt as if I  "lost" my father to this dynamic in addition to my mother's extended family who rallied to her side as. I cried for months, all the time. But then, I wonder- if my own father could do this- what kind of relationship was this anyway? Surely your H is wondering this too.

My best advice is for your H to get some support through counseling. It's confusing and hurtful to deal with a family dynamic like this. Even if he doesn't have a mental health diagnosis- I don't either- it's a situational loss and it helps to have this support.

Your MIL, like my father, is also reacting to the situation, probably not in the best way. I think we do what we can with the relationship tools we have. It's likely she is coping in the only way she knows how according to her own experiences.

We can learn too. I look back at my own responses at the time these issues happened. I don't regret having boundaries. I do think there are ways I could have handled things better- if I knew what I know now, but it's the situation that got me into therapy, CODA, ACA, to learn them. I think I would have gray rocked rather than react if I knew what that was.

I also know that nothing I could have done differently could have changed the situation into a win-win. My BPD mother's issues did impact relationships. I couldn't control what she said to other people about me. I just had to hold my own standards of behavior and let them decide on their own.

I did not go NC because I wanted to keep the connections with other people in the family. If she broke them, that was on her. I did go LC. NC will keep you from having contact with your SIL. It will not stop her victim narrative about you or change her impression. One possibility is that if she acts up in front of others it might lead them to question her narrative but she will say and think what she chooses.

NC or LC are both choices you make for your own emotional well being- according to what you feel you need to do.

[Notwendy]

NC will keep you from having contact with your SIL. It will not stop her victim narrative about you or change her impression. One possibility is that if she acts up in front of others it might lead them to question her narrative but she will say and think what she chooses.

NC or LC are both choices you make for your own emotional well being- according to what you feel you need to do.

Highlighting this- no NC will not change what your SIL says to your MIL. It won't protect you from what your MIL chooses to think. In fact, it leaves a "blank space" for your SIL to fill with her narrative as there's no other input with MIL from the two of you.

[Notwendy]

We will not risk my kids hearing something they cannot unhear from her or uncle or their older half cousin about how I am racist or evil or a terrible mother or hateful (all things she regularly accused me of). My husband and I agreed to stay away (they moved right next to his parents), but she has now “reached out” to me after a year to show me pics of her baby and say she is thinking of us… of course a response will drag me back into the abusive manipulation, and a nonresponse will have her crying to my MIL about how hateful I am, which my MIL will not support or defend me at all.


What’s my best answer when my MIL asks me why I won’t reply to her outreach?

I know it’s a lose lose for everyone involved, I just want to give her as little power as possible over my relationship with my MIL.

Thinking about this, I think there are several issues to unpack. A response to one of them doesn't mean all of them.

You are correct- when your SIL sent a picture of the baby- this is a no win situation. Either response could result in a negative reaction from your SIL. Your choice is which negative.

My own personal choice would be to reply with an emotionally neutral response. "oh the baby is so cute! thanks for the picture".

If this were my BPD mother, this is a sort of "camel's nose under the tent" situation. She would start with a small non objectional request or contact, get a response/agreement, and then the conversations/requests would escalate, until eventually I'd say no and then be the villain.

Not responding- I'd be the villain.

I felt though, that my only "defense" against her narrative about me was to show up as different. If I showed up and acted polite, cordial (not with emotional investment) and people saw that I wasn't acting according to how she described it- then it wouldn't fit their impression. It wasn't only about them, as we can't control another person's thinking, but it helped me to stay firm in my own self image.

If the response to "cute baby" escalated, I would find another neutral way to disengage from the conversation. Read the tools here about JADE, SET. Something like "I am sorry you feel this way about what I wrote/said" "I have to go now to a meeting (or some excuse, make it up) talk to you later- bye"  Then you are done. (ignore further texts).

While the advice to not bring MIL into this dynamic, this solves the issue of her asking why you didn't respond. If she does ask you this, you can say "We did respond" then stop- you don't discuss this further. If MIL persists, you can say
"Mom, we love you and wish to handle this ourselves".

Protecting your kids from what they hear is a separate issue. None of this involves contact with your kids. They aren't in contact with her. They don't see the texts. This part of your boundary stays intact. I assume this concern happens when you visit. My approach to this is that- I didn't let my kids alone with BPD mother ever when they were younger. Someone was there. We visited as a family and stayed together.

You can also choose to not respond and remain NC. It doesn't stop the narrative on SIL's part. My choice for LC was due to several issues, one of them was that I wanted to remain in contact with my father. They were a pair. NC with her would mean NC with him. I couldn't control my BPD mother's behavior.

About power- personally, I think going NC or reacting emotionally gives her the power. Her power over you is if she can get you to react- either way- by reacting to her behavior with anger or by disappearing. One way to not give her power is by not allowing her to get any reaction from you, by showing up calm and collected. There were times I did get angry at my mother and say something mean back. It seemed she got some satisfaction about that- that she was able to get a reaction from me. I also felt badly about it, because when I do this I am not acting within my own standards. I felt she got her way at the expense of my own ethics. There were times she decided to cut me off but I didn't need to do what she did.

[Pook075]

Thank you for your time and response! Clarification and question- I did not mean I believe she will ever apologize, we know she is not capable of doing that! I just meant that would be the only way we would be comfortable giving this another shot.

By not fighting fire with fire, you mean isolation would be doing that? We feel the need to stay away because of our children, we are unwilling to let them get mixed up in the manipulation, and she has a pervasive tendency to isolate them from me, get them alone with her or her son, etc. We feel infinitely uncomfortable with that. Do you have suggestions on how to clarify to my MIL why we feel the need to keep distance from her without feeding the flames?

What I meant by that is your husband is deeply hurt over his relationship with his mom.  You guys are less active with mom because of the sister in law.  Just realize that those are two completely different things, two completely different relationships.  And by keeping distant from everyone, it is enabling your SIL to control the situation.

The fire with fire part is how you respond to the SIL, your step-mom, etc.  The SIL says something to MIL, mom calls you with concern, and you have to say....something.  The first thing that would come to my mind is, "That <bleep bleep> is a liar!"  But that's the worst possible option, it's pouring fuel on the fire.

Again, SIL believes what she says is true...and it is true from her mentally ill perspective.  What it's actually about is wanting to be the favorite of mom, feeling insecure of you, and feeling like things will spiral out of control if she's not 100% in the middle of everything 100% of the time.

In other words, she's saying and doing all those things because she's wounded mentally and unstable.  She sees you as a threat that she has to take out.

Recently, she's reached out about the baby, because the pendulum has swung in a different direction and now she wants everyone to be excited for her family.  She's not in fight or flight mode anymore, so there's no reason to be on the attack.  She has the smallest baby, and everyone loves a new baby, so the world is put right at the moment.

What I'm trying to paint a picture of here is that these highs and lows will be there for the rest of your life.  You can fight it and defend the lows, or you can take an indifferent stance and not play the game at all anymore.  See family and enjoy them, despite what's said from someone mentally ill. 

The SIL deserves compassion, she's sick and unstable.  If you approach it from that viewpoint, she's not your enemy anymore.  Instead, she's someone who needs a little more encouragement in order to keep the peace.  And when she flies off the handles, show her love and apologize for any misunderstanding.

Note- I'm not saying to apologize for her delusions...you can never validate that.  But you can validate her hurt feelings and let her know where you stand while she's jumping to conclusions.  I hope that helps.

[Methuen]

Again, SIL believes what she says is true...and it is true from her mentally ill perspective.  What it's actually about is wanting to be the favorite of mom, feeling insecure of you, and feeling like things will spiral out of control if she's not 100% in the middle of everything 100% of the time.

In other words, she's saying and doing all those things because she's wounded mentally and unstable.  She sees you as a threat that she has to take out.

Recently, she's reached out about the baby, because the pendulum has swung in a different direction and now she wants everyone to be excited for her family.  She's not in fight or flight mode anymore, so there's no reason to be on the attack.  She has the smallest baby, and everyone loves a new baby, so the world is put right at the moment.

What I'm trying to paint a picture of here is that these highs and lows will be there for the rest of your life.  You can fight it and defend the lows, or you can take an indifferent stance and not play the game at all anymore.  See family and enjoy them, despite what's said from someone mentally ill. 

The SIL deserves compassion, she's sick and unstable.  If you approach it from that viewpoint, she's not your enemy anymore.  Instead, she's someone who needs a little more encouragement in order to keep the peace.  And when she flies off the handles, show her love and apologize for any misunderstanding.

This is so spot on.  As a member who used to visit our forum liked to say: "stay in your lane".  Stay rational - avoid reacting.  Don't get defensive, and don't go on the attack.  Just grey rock.

I just wanted to bring attention to Pook's references to the "mental illness".

We all understand the term here, because we are a somewhat informed community sharing the same difficult experience, and learning from it, and sharing these learnings and experiences with other community members who all support each other.  That's what makes this forum work.  We "get it" here.

Just be aware that it's not advised to ever use or suggest that label outside this forum to her or against her or with any member of her family (including your MIL), even in the most well-intentioned way.

I have read so many threads on here over the years where well meaning people have tried to talk to their pwBPD or involved family members in the conversation about a "mental illness" with the goal to getting them help. Snap. This backfires and escalates and creates a whole other level of drama and harm and chaos, and almost always it seems they are surprised by this reaction.  The only way a person can be surprised by this outcome is to not understand BPD, which is fair.  None of us starts out "understanding" BPD.   

In my own situation, I have understood my mom has a mental illness for probably less than 10 years now (I am 63).  I only found this site about 7 years ago.  I use the information about the illness to help myself navigate a relationship with her, and inform how I choose to react to her behaviors, which as her daughter, have been a struggle for me and my H.  I have never shared that she has uBPD with anyone outside of my H, my 2 adult children, and my counsellor.  How would this information help any other person? And if I had ever gone to her to have a loving conversation about the possibility of getting her help, it is guaranteed a label would come back to me and I would end up wearing it (in one of her rages).  Disaster is the only word that comes to mind. And sharing it with a family member of hers would have been foolhardy because the first person they would tell is her.  And your MIL as an enabler would do this too. I don't think anyone in the BPD's circle can be trusted with that kind of information.  But it is helpful to be frank in our conversations here with each other, when we are offering support and suggestions for navigating these high conflict kinds of people.

I thought it worth mentioning here because I have read so many threads over the years where people have tried to "help" the family member by talking about BPD and actually suggesting they see a therapist, and an emotional nuclear bomb happens and everything just gets worse and unreconcilable.  I just really care enough about people already struggling with a BPD family member, that if there is any way to prevent it from becoming worse, I feel it is worth mentioning.

Hopefully this makes sense. 

Back to supporting Pook's point, the safest strategy is just stepping of the triangle and not engaging in drama.  Borderlines NEED drama.  They will push your buttons more when they don't get a reaction from you (sometimes called an extinction burst).  Drive you crazy inside.  But if you can stay calm, unruffled, unemotional, stay in your lane, and outlast them (as Pook has described), they will have to eventually have to go elsewhere to get their drama. 

[Notwendy]

This is so spot on.  As a member who used to visit our forum liked to say: "stay in your lane".  Stay rational - avoid reacting.  Don't get defensive, and don't go on the attack.  Just grey rock.

I just wanted to bring attention to Pook's references to the "mental illness".

We all understand the term here, because we are a somewhat informed community sharing the same difficult experience, and learning from it, and sharing these learnings and experiences with other community members who all support each other.  That's what makes this forum work.  We "get it" here.

Just be aware that it's not advised to ever use or suggest that label outside this forum to her or against her or with any member of her family (including your MIL), even in the most well-intentioned way.

I have read so many threads on here over the years where well meaning people have tried to talk to their pwBPD or involved family members in the conversation about a "mental illness" with the goal to getting them help. Snap. This backfires and escalates and creates a whole other level of drama and harm and chaos, and almost always it seems they are surprised by this reaction.  The only way a person can be surprised by this outcome is to not understand BPD, which is fair.  None of us starts out "understanding" BPD.   

I agree with this. People who have told their pwBPD that they have BPD have often found out it escalated the situation.

Some pwBPD that posters write about are diagnosed but many aren't. We aren't able to make that diagnosis either. It's when we see the same behaviors- it helps to lead us to ways to interact and how to not make the situation worse. The help is for us, not to label the pwBPD.

I also didn't know much about BPD. I did know that something was "different" about my BPD mother. She didn't act like the mothers of my friends and some of her behaviors were so disordered, we did notice. However, we had to pretend all was normal. It was a family rule to not mention BPD mother's behaviors to anyone.

By high school and college, I was looking at psychology books, trying to figure out if my mother was in these books somewhere, but BPD wasn't known at the time. There wasn't anything that described her well.

I got busy with college, later work and family. I had moved out of the house and so BPD mother's behavior wasn't a focus. Some time later, I was looking at NPD on the internet because I knew someone who was classic NPD and difficult to deal with. I thought there were some similarities to my mother. There was a link to BPD and I clicked on it- and it fit.

She had had mental health intervention but nobody had ever mentioned BPD to me.

In her elder years, caregivers experienced similar behaviors with her. A social worker got involved. She then carefully mentioned "PD" I think she was seeing how I'd react. I told her I already knew.

Still, BPD mother didn't have that label on her medical charts. It wouldn't have helped her. There's no medicine for BPD. Medical care was focused on what was being treated- "anxiety". 

Although some people are helped by therapy specific for BPD- I thihk they also need to be willing to seek help and it's up to the therapist to tell them. We can use the label to help us- but otherwise, we need to "stay in our lane"

[sweetlyblessed]

You can also choose to not respond and remain NC. It doesn't stop the narrative on SIL's part. My choice for LC was due to several issues, one of them was that I wanted to remain in contact with my father. They were a pair. NC with her would mean NC with him. I couldn't control my BPD mother's behavior.

About power- personally, I think going NC or reacting emotionally gives her the power. Her power over you is if she can get you to react- either way- by reacting to her behavior with anger or by disappearing. One way to not give her power is by not allowing her to get any reaction from you, by showing up calm and collected. There were times I did get angry at my mother and say something mean back. It seemed she got some satisfaction about that- that she was able to get a reaction from me. I also felt badly about it, because when I do this I am not acting within my own standards. I felt she got her way at the expense of my own ethics. There were times she decided to cut me off but I didn't need to do what she did.

Thank you. NC vs LC is such a strange debate to me. At the moment, and for the past decade or so, we are okay with losing connection with his brother and their nuclear family. Of course we would prefer not to, but he has been difficult to be around for several years before SIL entered the picture, although no anger or problem had been aimed at us personally prior to her.

I believe she would still have power in my head going LC, as I know she would cry to my MIL, who would approach me, about things that didn't happen or things I sort of said but didn't really say, etc. Although I could possibly behave as if I had no emotion, I struggle to feel unrattled with her bizarre warping of reality, and it feels terrible to be questioned by my MIL who never doubted anything about me until now. I do appreciate that NC will allow her to cry to her still, but it seems like this will still prevent SIL from being able to smear reality around the most effectively (vs LC) if MIL knows we just aren't going there at all...right..?

[Notwendy]

• At the moment, and for the past decade or so, we are okay with losing connection with his brother and their nuclear family.
  
  I believe she would still have power in my head going LC, as I know she would cry to my MIL,
  
  Still, but it seems like this will still prevent SIL from being able to smear reality around the most effectively (vs LC) if MIL knows we just aren't going there at all...right..?

I hightlighted these points because I think they are important. One is that you both are OK with NC already with both SIL and the brother.

The decision to be NC or LC is about your own emotional peace- while neither is completely easy- it's about the one that works best for you. You feel that NC is the better choice for that.

NC and LC doesn't change how someone thinks. Your SIL can still have distorted thoughts and say what she says. Considering that neither NC or LC affects the other person's thinking- but NC is the choice that works better for you- than NC is the best one for you.

[Notwendy]

Something to think about- family dynamics.

It seems that there were issues in your H's family prior to SIL coming into it. You see that MIL also has enabling tendencies. While families are made up of individuals, they also function as a unit. If one family member has a disorder or is difficult, other family members take on roles to balance the system. If one person changes their role, the other people in the family feel out of balance. Their first attempt is to get the family member back in their role and if this doesn't work- they may "reject" that family member and reconfigure themselves. This may be why your H is feeling his mother has reconfigured with the other brother and SIL.

People who have enabling tendencies tend to pair up with people who have an emotional need to be enabled. This pair is MIL and SIL. MIL may also be enmeshed with her other son. Living next door can be a nice situation or it can be too close and enmeshed.

The family dynamics a child grows up in feels like their "normal". If it's dysfunctional, they may not see it. Another aspect in your situation is your H's distress. I think counseling will help him with this.

I also think there's a tendency for parents to focus on the child that has the most need. It may feel like favoritism to the child not focused on but I think it's instinct. Or if there's dysfunction, the child who is more enmeshed may "fit" the family pattern better. Sometimes a family has a golden child and a scapegoat child.

Why your MIL seems to favor the more disordered brother and SIL may feel hurftul but in actuality, you two may be the ones who have stepped out of family dysfunction which could actually be a positive step.