My wife is refusing to let my mother visit or see the grandchildren…

[thankful person]

Hi all,

I have been a member of bpd fam for over four years and have seen much improvement in my communications and marriage. I am a married lesbian with a bpdw and four small children (D5, D4, S2, and baby S 9 mths). These children were conceived via ivf with my wife’s eggs and anonymous donor. My wife carried all of these pregnancies. Legally the children are half mine as we did the ivf together and I’m on their birth certificates.

I have rarely posted in this conflicted board, and usually on the bettering board. I want this marriage to work out because I want us to raise our family together (that’s not the same as “staying together for the sake of the children”.) I have posted about this exact topic in the other board but didn’t get anywhere with it.

My wife has always had a strained relationship with my family, particularly my mother. We live 6 hour’s drive away from her now and my mother is 80, and we recently lost my Dad. We have come to a point where my wife is refusing to let my Mum see the children under any circumstances. This is not about not wanting her to stay with us, or even my wife not wanting to see Mum. She has got such an issue with my mother that nothing is negotiable for seeing the children. The issue is that my Mum is not interested enough in my wife, does not make enough effort with her… basically permanently split on her. I have tried to get Mum to understand bpdw, taught her about validation etc. I think Mum feels that she is never going to see these kids again so what’s the point in making an effort with someone who is so selfish, cruel, and impossible. Two examples which have been the final straw for my wife: One day a few months ago my wife texted Mum to say she was very sick in hospital. Mum opened the message but didn’t reply for a few hours, saying she was doing Zumba. Today, my wife texted Mum to say she’s looking at a new pet rabbit as one of our two rabbits sadly died last weekend and the other is missing her. Mum just said, why are you getting a new rabbit? Haven’t you got enough on your plate? Then they had a big falling out and Mum ended up saying, I don’t know why you told me about this. I am frustrated that Mum could not respond positively to my wide reaching out, but of course she is elderly now, and also grieving.

I am thoroughly broken by this situation. I know that, were I to split up with my wife then I would legally be able to be granted permission to take the kids to see my mother. But as a married person with a controlling wife… no there’s no hope. She has said that she would take the kids out if my mother came round. She would lock us out of the house, do all manner of things to prevent her from seeing them, things which would emotionally upset the children.

I hate myself for allowing this situation. My wife knows how upset I am. She knows I think it’s morally wrong and disgusting. She knows I resent her over it though I haven’t voiced this, but used this evening as an excuse to have a huge rant over her mother inviting herself whenever she wants. My wife feels so strongly that she has said (and I believe her) that she will also not let her mother visit if that’s what I wanted. I said I would never do that… because it is wrong. My wife has terrible role models as her father has disowned both of her sisters and his own mother.

I feel so ashamed. I don’t want to give up my marriage over this. I even mentioned that I’d have more rights if we were divorced and of course my wife loved that as she often talks about us getting divorced. But by and large we’re getting along these days, and the kids seem to be pretty mentally stable and strong despite everything. I have said it breaks my heart to think my mother will die one day and I’ll feel so guilty for all of this.

I would appreciate any thoughts. Thank you.

[ForeverDad]

Laws vary from state to states, and even from country to country, some jurisdictions granting grandparents some rights to have contact with the grandchildren, others less so.  So if it comes down to a legal matter, you would do well to learn which rights your Mum has as applicable in your area of residence.

I wish I had other ideas less draconian, so hopefully others will also respond with strategies that might work.

[Notwendy]

I'm sorry you are in this situation- sorry for you, your kids and your mother. I don't have a solution to offer. Since each situation is different, a first approach can be on the bettering board- how much can we do to improve our part of the relationship, but it doesn't change the other person's mental illness- and that can also vary in severity. For some situations "bettering" is enough. Know though that wherever you post- on bettering or conflicted- we don't post run messages, we don't tell a poster what to do. This is your relationship to decide on no matter where you post.

I experienced growing up in a family similar to this. Yes, thankfully we kids turned out "OK"- by OK meaning we don't have a mental illness, or serious behavioral issues, but that doesn't mean we were not affected by the situation or that there wasn't collateral damage in other aspects- financially to my father, relationships with extended family.

There is a cost/benefit to being in a relationship with a severely mentally disordered person. When the costs exceed the benefit, then the relationship becomes in question. However, the cost/benefits are individual and can vary, even if the cost appears to be extraordinarily high at times.

I didn't know all that my father had to consider in his relationship. Whatever the "cost" to him of this relationship, it didn't seem high enough for him to take action. On the other hand, there's a cost to leaving as well. Perhaps at the time, this seemed worse to him. These are complicated decisions.

If his decision was to stay married no matter what, then whatever feelings anyone else had about it that was just collateral damage. From your posts, I think so far, your decision is similar- to stay married no matter what. Unfortunately, this is one of the "what". Please know, I am not trying to shame you or make this hurtful in any way. It happened in my family too, and yet to go against my mother's wishes also had unwanted consequences.

I understand your mother's perspective. She has tried. However, none of her efforts seem to be good enough for your wife. Eventually one gets discouraged and less motivated to try. I felt like this too. It's demoralizing to try to fix things and not have them be enough. Eventually, other family members realize there's not much we can do to change the situation and also manage as best we can.

[CC43]

Hi Thankful,

I'm sorry you are in this situation.  It's very sad that the kids have a grandma who wants to have a relationship with them, but your spouse is preventing that from happening.

When I read your post, my first thought was, the situation has little to do with your mom in my opinion.  It seems to me that your spouse is trying to find reasons to alienate her, such as "excessive slowness" in responding to a text.  Her reasons probably aren't rational, but rather reflect her distorted BPD thinking patterns.  Maybe your spouse wants to exert control, as she feels out of control, and this is her way of claiming it back.  Maybe she fears she'll be upstaged by grandma, and the kids will temporarily turn their love in her direction, which she would find devastating.  Maybe she's just trying to hurt YOU, knowing that alienating grandma will irk you.  Maybe she thinks that the kids are exclusively "hers," and she's indirectly reminding you of that by controlling where they go and whom they see at all times.  Maybe she doesn't want any visitors at all, because she can't handle it when things don't go exactly as she planned.  Maybe she doesn't want grandma to see the kids because that would be joyful, and she can't bear to see others be joyful, as it reminds her that she is not.  Maybe it's a little of everything, or maybe her reasoning changes as quickly as her moods.  Sadly, with BPD, the "rationale" is dependent on moods (which are overwhelmingly negative and judgmental), and not on priorities such as family togetherness and compromise for the sake of a happy household.

I have pwBPD and a pwNPD in my life, and they try to be uber controlling, often in bizarre ways.  I've learned that if I cave in to their demands and generally go about life walking on eggshells, it only engenders even more irrational, unfair demands on me.  If I go ahead and "deliberately disobey" their orders, or fail to do as they demand, I know I'm going to face a meltdown.  So what I do is, I examine my priorities, and I decide to live with the meltdowns.  So for example, if there's a family funeral, I'm attending whether my pwBPD likes it or not.  If there's a reunion with old friends, I'm attending whether my pwBPD likes it or not.  In other words, I don't actively try to antagonize my pwBPD, but at the same time, I don't let their irrational fears and demands totally hijack my life, either.  Predictably, they will have a meltdown when I don't do exactly what they expect, but I let them have the meltdown!  Generally I give them a time out, (time and space to cool off).  Typically, the next day they will pretend that nothing happened, because they know darn well that I was living a normal adult's life (such as attending a family funeral).  And I feel saddened that I have to witness such meltdowns, but the sadness is worth it because I don't feel alienated from family, friends and a "normal" adult life.  I guess your issue would be that the children could witness the meltdowns, and that could be scary and destabilizing.

Just my thoughts.  I feel for you.

[Notwendy]

Hi Thankful,


When I read your post, my first thought was, the situation has little to do with your mom in my opinion. 

Her reasons probably aren't rational, but rather reflect her distorted BPD thinking patterns. 

I guess your issue would be that the children could witness the meltdowns, and that could be scary and destabilizing.

I agree, it isn't rational and isn't about your mother. I don't think it's possible to explain something irrational.

It was extremely difficult to say no to my mother or go against her wishes. It takes a lot of emotional energy to withstand the meltdown, and it sometimes wasn't just a meltdown. Even though it was difficult to oppose her, it was relatively easier to do since I didn't live with her, but my father did- and so the consequences were more for him if he did.

I do agree that giving in, walking on eggshells only reinforces their behavior, and their control- which I think makes things worse in the long run. In the moment though, there's only so much a person can manage, being the wage earner, financially keeping the family afloat, doing the childcare and meeting the emotional needs of a disordered spouse- there may not be the emotional reserve to deal with the consequences of going against the pwBPD's wishes.

So it becomes a choice of who it is easier to say "no" to, and that is whoever else is in the conflicting situation, those who don't have BPD, and who aren't going to escalate. It may not be fair to them, it may be hurtful and go against your ethical standards but in survival mode one does what they can in the moment to avoid an escalation.

[thankful person]

Thank you all for your replies. Forever Dad, I have been meaning to look into the legal aspect. However, the issues are that I would be worried about my wife’s reaction, despite everything. But also, know my mother would not want go to court over it etc. and I wouldn’t want her to know it was going on. Also I would like the children to not have to know this was going on and I think it would be very sad. And I know w would feed them lies over what a terrible person Granny is and I’d rather she continues to allow FaceTime so they can see Granny is lovely.

Not Wendy, I know that deciding to stay in this marriage that this is one of the costs. When things were more rocky with less kids then I was willing to lose the marriage over it when my wife said she didn’t want me sending mum photos of the baby (our first). That was when I started standing up to her. As you know I used to dance around trying to appease her and get her on board with plans. I am forever thankful for your helping me with this in the past. My Dad only met the children a few times and not all of them. But those times he met them I have such happy memories and the photos of him with the grandchildren were the happiest pictures of him in years because he’s been so unwell.

"Maybe your spouse wants to exert control, as she feels out of control, and this is her way of claiming it back.  Maybe she fears she'll be upstaged by grandma, and the kids will temporarily turn their love in her direction, which she would find devastating.  Maybe she's just trying to hurt YOU, knowing that alienating grandma will irk you.  Maybe she thinks that the kids are exclusively "hers," and she's indirectly reminding you of that by controlling where they go and whom they see at all times.  Maybe she doesn't want any visitors at all, because she can't handle it when things don't go exactly as she planned.  Maybe she doesn't want grandma to see the kids because that would be joyful, and she can't bear to see others be joyful, as it reminds her that she is not. 

CC43, these reasons are spot on. Additionally, my wife is jealous because her parents are still together, but she describes her family as broken. Her sisters both were made to leave the family home when she was a child and her Dad says, “they’re dead to me”. He also hasn’t seen his mother since w was a child. But she wasn’t close to her grandparents either, she says she was but they weren’t that loving like my maternal grandmother. I think my paternal grandmother had bpd, but I did have a relationship with her. My wife did also mention that the children are not really mine so not really mums grandchildren (biologically). It’s because she feels threatened and trying to take that control back.

I’m not walking on eggshells like I used to but I pick and choose my battles. As I said above, I do want the FaceTime relationship to continue between my mum and my kids and I don’t want to have to do that behind my wife’s back because again, I don’t want the kids to know anything is up. I attended my Dad’s funeral without her because she chose not to attend, but she screamed at me on the phone most of the six hour drive home because I didn’t pay her enough attention by ringing and texting her that day. I knew she would want me to and I deliberately chose to spend time with my family instead. I didn’t realise quite how badly this would affect her, but I’m glad I did the right thing I wanted to do, even though I would have liked to stay longer but she insisted she couldn’t cope with putting the children to bed on her own so I had to get back.

I probably won’t be attending any work socials, but I have fought to stop w bullying me out of quitting my job. I get so much support there, everyone knows about my wife but I’m ashamed about the thing with my mum so I haven’t told them much about that. They are all neurodiverse and very supportive but I don’t expect anyone would have any advice about this.

[Notwendy]

I think you have made a lot of progress in your situation with holding boundaries. The job is an important one. I am glad you are finding it to be a good situation for you. I am also glad you can have the face time with your mother that you do.

I think it's less likely that your wife would leave the marriage than she would escalate if you forced the issue with the kids seeing your mother. BPD mother frequently threatened divorce but the reality was she was dependent on my father and your wife is dependent on you too. It would have been difficult for her to go through with it. I think that is where her power actually was, by escalating to the extent one would rather give in to avoid them.

[thankful person]

Thanks Not Wendy,

I guess it’s a case of trying to work out what my options are and what is the best thing to do. I spoke before of inviting mum round and not telling her she’s not welcome. But my wife really may have a major meltdown and refuse to let mum in etc. she may just play along and pretend she knew and have the meltdown later. But I can’t trust she would do that.

Thank you all for reminding me mum is not the villain. I was very angry to hear she had not responded positively about the new rabbit. We were all heart broken to lose the old rabbit. Mum didn’t yet understand that the other rabbit was upset and may not realise a rabbit can die from such stress. But I was going to be angry with mum but she didn’t answer the phone (probably strategic ). I will not mention anything about it because she is no longer expecting an invitation sadly. My wife doesn’t seem to feel guilty about this at all, but as I said she’s had such a strange past and most recently her dads side of the family were all told they were unwelcome at her paternal grandfathers funeral and I know it hurts her to think of my family all coming together to celebrate my dads life and for me to not think about her all day. Just couldn’t be bothered that day and I’m glad.

[Notwendy]

Thank you all for reminding me mum is not the villain. I was very angry to hear she had not responded positively about the new rabbit. We were all heart broken to lose the old rabbit. Mum didn’t yet understand that the other rabbit was upset and may not realise a rabbit can die from such stress. But I was going to be angry with mum but she didn’t answer the phone (probably strategic ).

First, I don't want to sound unsympathetic about the rabbit. I had pet rabbits for a while too. We have had several cats and losing a beloved pet is difficult.

However, I want to put this in context. Your mother just lost a husband. She's also dealing with not being able to see her grandchildren. She probably isn't in the emotional mindset to console your wife over the rabbit. I am glad you didn't get cross with her over that.

I think you have some awareness of what your mother may be feeling as you do feel badly about her not seeing your grandchildren, but I also think it's eclipsed by your wife's feelings. Your wife was upset, and so you were angry at your mother. Your instinct was to call her up and express this. This is Karpman triangle dynamics.

I wondered how my father could be so seemingly unaware of the effects of my mother's behavior on other people and also the impact of him aligning with her on that. But when we act on anger and fear, we are acting out of the lower parts of our brain, the fight or flight parts and our higher thinking, empathy thinking, is turned off.

There was a sign outside a therapist's office that reads "hurting people hurt others" and I think it's relevant to BPD dynamics. Your wife was feeling hurt over the rabbit. You were feeling hurt too. But your mother, who is still grieving her husband and not able to see her grandchildren is hurting too. There's only the need for a villain in Karmpan triangle dynamics, but Karpman triangle dynamics don't serve anyone. There are no villains here, just people.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, you are absolutely right. Mum and myself are on the extreme ends of the emotional spectrum as in I think and express myself very emotionally and my mother doesn’t express her emotions at all very often. She is calm. She copes. Bpdw of course is also on the extreme emotional end. My Dad was up there with me and bpdw too. It’s always been so difficult for me to understand and relate to Mum for this reason. I know she would be hurting over losing Dad though she just doesn’t express it ;( I’m not sure how I can help or be there for her.

[Notwendy]

If we step out of Karpman triangle dynamics- there are no villains but also there are no adult victims. Each of you has choices- abeit difficult ones. While you may think your wife's decision to not allow your mother to see the children is cruel and wrong, you still are going along with it to keep the status quo.

It comes down to your own boundaries. Our boundaries reflect our own values and at some are hard ones, the ones we stand up for. Your mother seeing the grandkids isn't one of them, at least not at the moment.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I feel so ashamed. I don’t want to give up my marriage over this. I even mentioned that I’d have more rights if we were divorced and of course my wife loved that as she often talks about us getting divorced. But by and large we’re getting along these days, and the kids seem to be pretty mentally stable and strong despite everything. I have said it breaks my heart to think my mother will die one day and I’ll feel so guilty for all of this.

I would appreciate any thoughts. Thank you.

I have a few thoughts on this, as I essentially went through the same thing, and it was a big enough problem for me that I divorced BPDxw over it.  But honestly, we probably would not have lasted anyway, the issues with my extended family just brought things to a breaking point sooner.

I'd echo what CC43 said: this isn't about your mother or anything she did or said; if your wife is BPD, the issues are all in her head.  I had to realize this as well.  The problem wasn't anything my mom did or didn't do; the problem was my then-wife had a behavioral disorder, and that caused her to perceive problems that weren't there, invent things that never happened to justify her behavior, or act outrageous in order to try and force everyone around her to behave as she wanted.  And regardless of whether she got her way or not, she would continue to be unhappy and make more and more excessive demands of everyone around her, because she had a problem. 

So that being said, you need to decide what's important to you, and how you'll go about getting that.  Don't allow threats from your partner to determine your course of action, and don't expect to be able to reach a mutual decision about this.  You're basically alone in this relationship, in many ways.  A pwBPD can't be an equal partner; they will consistently seek to put their emotional needs ahead of literally everything else in the household, including the kids' needs. 

Maybe you could, through a lot patient preparation and emotional dealing, work out some compromise where you take your kids to see your mom once and a while, or something like that, but be prepared for your partner to constantly attempt to sabotage each visit. 

If you trust your mom, perhaps you could clue her in to your situation, namely that your partner likely has a behavioral disorder, explain you're trying to work through it, and appreciate her support and patience. 

I finally had to do this in my case because BPDxw kept picking fights with my mom while my mom was at work (BPDxw was a stay-at-home-mom at the time), and I didn't want my poor mother suffering from that, or thinking I was condoning the behavior.  My mom did appreciate that, and said she was losing sleep, staying up at night wondering what she had done wrong, and if I also hated her now.  I told her that I understood she hadn't done anything wrong, my wife had a problem, and I was deciding what to do about it.  I wouldn't recommend doing this if you think your mom will divulge the conversation to your partner; that would just put you in an even worse situation... like pouring gasoline on a fire. 

Whatever you decide, keep in mind though that cutting your mom out of your life and/or your kids' lives in order to placate your partner is not going to resolve conflict in your relationship, because again, the problem is your partner's behavioral disorder, not your mom or anything else. 

[ForeverDad]

I’d rather she continues to allow FaceTime so they can see Granny is lovely.

If your spouse is allowing online contact with the kids, then that is at least better than no contact at all.  Of course, demands may change in the future so grandparent contact may be further restricted, however when the children are with you then you're the deciding parent.  Well, not that the other's perceptions will allow that perspective.

[thankful person]

It comes down to your own boundaries. Our boundaries reflect our own values and at some are hard ones, the ones we stand up for. Your mother seeing the grandkids isn't one of them, at least not at the moment.

Not Wendy, I want this to be a value that I stand up for. When I last discussed this issue on the betterment board, no conclusion was reached as to what I could do. Your advice was against my idea of inviting Mum round against my wife’s wishes. I felt as though, really, this boundary thing is an illusion and at the end of the day, we are all at the mercy of our pwbpd’s. I have expressed my awareness that, were I to separate from my wife, I would have more rights over the children, to take them to see my Mum, during whatever custody time I was granted legally if bpdw would not agree to it. I do understand that this is the path I may have to take in these circumstances. I came to this conflicted board to ask for advice as to what to do next. I understand that I would need to seek legal advice and I’m not sure how or whether this would cost me (we have no money). Or do I try to go behind my wife’s back, which is still going to be difficult as I have little time without her and then I’m either at work or driving and she still rings me when I’m driving.

Pete Witsend, your story does sound very similar to mine and my wife has been a stay at home parent for six years. I have decided that this is important to me. I used to pussy foot around the issue, walking on egg shells, trying to gently convince bpdw to have my mother visit. I used to coax my wife like a sick injured animal give her utmost care and attention. I’m done with that. I have mentioned to her that I could seek legal advice and she has said ,”fine divorce me”, no matter what she really means. Today she started another text fight with Mum, to show me that she’s tried one last time and won’t be trying again. I told her to please leave my mother alone. My Mum knows exactly what my wife is like. I have told her about bpd, but she isn’t interested. I think she just thinks my wife should grow up, stop being selfish, and think about other people other than herself for a moment. I don’t think I’ve been condoning this to keep the peace. It’s more that I don’t see what the opposite of that choice would look like, what I should actually do. Allowing my wife this power may not be keeping the peace, but it is allowing our relationship to stay stable rather than descending into hell. I just want to do this as peacefully as possible.

Forever Dad, I am not ever “permitted” to be the deciding parent, so if I were to FaceTime behind my wife’s back then she would be very angry. In fact she doesn’t like to be talked about, and I think this is why she doesn’t like me speaking to my mother when she’s not present.

So without asking, what should I do? Please tell me if anyone has any ideas as to how I can approach and execute this plan with the least explosion.

[ForeverDad]

Please tell me if anyone has any ideas as to how I can approach and execute this plan with the least explosion.

We have an entire Tools & Skills board that has many topic discussions on improving our communication skills, better boundaries, learning which approaches to use and which not to use, etc.  That said, BPD is so intractable that no matter what we say, do or improve upon, the other's entitlement, obstruction and denials can still persist.

That leaves... what decisions are we to make for ourselves (and hopefully for your children)?  Partly, that's why I suggested you research what the laws and case law are in your area or state, since you aren't the genetic parent of the children.  Legally you both should be considered parents but if the marriage ends, then what?  Once you determine where you stand in that respect, you'll know what the worst case scenario would likely be should your marriage fail.  Not that we want it to happen, but to make informed decisions we need to know the possible good to bad range as we ponder our choices and approaches.

[Notwendy]

When I last discussed this issue on the betterment board, no conclusion was reached as to what I could do. Your advice was against my idea of inviting Mum round against my wife’s wishes. I felt as though, really, this boundary thing is an illusion and at the end of the day, we are all at the mercy of our pwbpd’s.

I don't recall what context that advice was, but I think it was because you felt that to do so would possibly risk the marriage and you didn't want to do that.  I think it was out of concern for your mother, who, after travelling several hours, might face your wife not even letting her come in and it escalating the situation.

I don't think there could be a conclusion for your situation, because, from my own experience- how to peacefully have your mother come visit without your wife reacting isn't something I have ever seen in my own family with my BPD mother. I wish there was a solution like this but I don't know of one.

Unfortunately, from my own experiece, there were two choices. One was to go against my mother's wishes, if I thought her wishes were wrong, as you do with this situation. The consequences would be her reaction. The other choice is to not rock the boat and feel bad about myself for going along with something I didn't think was right.

I highlighted the idea of being at the mercy of the pwBPD. I don't think this is completely true but rather, not doing this comes with the consequences of their reaction .Does holding the boundary that the pwBPD doesn't want risk the relationship? Maybe and maybe not. It puts the "ball" back into their court to decide. My BPD mother threatened divorce but in reality, she was completely dependent on my father and I don't think she could have done it easily.



I wish I had a better solution, really, but I don't know of one.

[Notwendy]

So far, I've replied to your posts with regards to your wish to stay married no matter what and that you are willing to go along with your wife in order to not risk the relationship.  Since you posted on the conflicting board- does this mean you are willing to go against her wishes, even if she is likely to react?

If so - there are posters here who have taken that route- and who can share their experiences.

[CravingPeace]

My ex uBPD also refused to allow my mother in the house. There was a small issue, but ex had been looking for a way for a while and she used this to justify it. She would say stuff like "I never want to stop you seeing your mom, or seeing her grandkids" while saying she wasn't welcome in the house (we live in a different country), so effectively blocking the relationship.

I wish I had stood up to her and told her while I live here (and pay all the bills/mortgage etc), if I want her to stay she will, just like ex allowed all her family to stay, but I didn't stand up to her until I had enough of all the things added up together.

One thing to realize is a core tactic of BPDs is to isolate you from family and friends so they can control you. Much easier if there is no outside view or perspective, particularly if you have become or are codependent. Much easier for them to control the narrative then.

Now we are divorced my kids get to see their grandmother and cousins. It's great. ex hates it and tries to tell me last minute I don't have her permission to travel with them. I just say tough the decree just says I need to notify you for international travel that is done, see you in a few weeks. She throws all her toys out the pram but doesn't change anything. I do what I think is right.

In my experience it is critical you do not allow this isolation of family. This is one meltdown I wish I had welcomed during the marriage. It is a red line in my book restricting family.

[PeteWitsend]

...

One thing to realize is a core tactic of BPDs is to isolate you from family and friends so they can control you. Much easier if there is no outside view or perspective, particularly if you have become or are codependent. Much easier for them to control the narrative then.

...

There is so much going on in these sort of incidents that it's hard not to gloss over some of the nuances and issues that come up, and the underlying dynamic, but this was absolutely true in my case, and BPDxw even admitted outright at least once that her goal was to isolate me from my family, and that she didn't like that I had other people in my life besides her.  Other people can say "hey, she's not treating you fairly." 

There was also a high level of paranoia there; namely that she actually said several times she was worried I'd leave her for my mom (!!!!) which is insane, and also that I would "choose" my family over her.  You can see their poor self image also plays a role, I suppose. 

When you consider this altogether, you can see how unreasonable the pwBPD is, and how the problem really is in their own head & of their own making.  Typically in these situations (it seems like both yours and mine), there's also a high level of hypocrisy in that they apply a double standard with your family and their own.

If you're not willing to become a complete doormat, and knuckle under to every demand, what then?  In my own experience, this meant divorce.  I didn't have the patience to keep putting up with what I considered to be nonsense, and BPDxw had shown she would escalate things to an intolerable level if she didn't get her way (e.g. screaming in public, making a scene in restaurants, fighting in front of our daughter, etc.).  And I thought about the long term as well: what was the upside here?  Why was I putting up with all this?  My parents were going to get old and need help some day, and what would BPDxw say then?  I leave my mom in the gutter?  Would this incredible selfish monster be there for me when we were old and I might need help every day?  Would I want her making decisions over my health in the hospital?  The answer to all that was a clear "NO" in my mind.

I suppose in less severe cases, if the pwBPD doesn't escalate things physically or emotionally such that you can live with them sulking around for a few days while your parents or mom or dad visit, then it could be more tolerable and the relationship could survive.  I think you owe it to your marriage to try.  But if not; if the pwBPD is going to react physically or erupt in shouting matches and behave like an overgrown toddler, then it becomes a personal decision between leaving them, or compromising against your own self.  How much of you are you willing to throw into that proverbial "bottomless pit" in order to keep the pwBPD happy?  Your own family?  Your kids at some point? 

[CC43]

Hi there,

To pull on this thread, the sad reality is that your partner is alienating you and your children from your family.  That may be a controlling tactic to isolate you, and in the process ensure that 100% of your attention is devoted to your spouse.  But if you take a step back, you'll probably see that this is not healthy at all.  There may be some limited circumstances where isolation from a family member is warranted, such as if the person were a convicted criminal or known to be violent.  Nevertheless, even people with significant problems (such as addictions) can find a way to visit with family (such as ensuring sobriety during a visit, or having supervised visitation only).  To imply that your own mother is deserving of total estrangement is totally uncalled for.  If her issues are trivial things such as excessive slowness in responding to texts and not gushing enough over a pet, that's completely unfair.  (I do understand that some people adore their pets, but by the same token, many people are indifferent to pets, thinking they are animals and do not equate to humans.)  That your spouse has to invent highly suspect reasons to justify keeping your mom away is typical of BPD distorted thinking.  She doesn't see that alienating you and your kids from your own mom is cruel. 

I guess that my thinking is that family would be a priority for me.  That's why I commented earlier that I would attend a family funeral, even if it meant the pwBPD in my life will have a meltdown.  A parallel might be that the pwBPD is not allowed to forbid my family members from visiting me in my own home.  I welcome my spouse's family for visits, and I expect the exact same courtesy from my spouse.  Just because they have BPD does not give them a free pass to impose unhealthy rules which govern my life, at least not for high priority issues like the family.  Maybe the pwBPD could come to a compromise--they can choose to be somewhere else during the family visit, and the visit would be limited in time (say, one weekend or one holiday).  Maybe the compromise would be to show good behavior for the duration of the visit (for example, one meal together), while you arrange for activities outside the home where your pwBPD wouldn't have to attend, and the family member could stay in a nearby hotel, so as not to impose too much.  That would feel more like compromise, and not necessarily outright hostility.  If my mom were to ask why she couldn't sleep in the house, I'd probably insist that she'd be more comfortable at a hotel, because of all the kids, the lack of space, and the extra burden it placed on my spouse at a really difficult time in their life (multiple little ones).  Does that make sense?

[PeteWitsend]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this in their own situation, but if/when you put your foot down and declared that the attempts to prevent you from seeing family had to stop, or you defended family members from attacks from the pwBPD, did things really escalate? 

I noticed that in my own case.  We had fought over things before, but once she blew up at my mom (about 1 1/2 years into our marriage), and I didn't "take her side" - because "her side" was literally screaming incoherently at my mom because my mom didn't take her shoes off immediately when  visiting our house - it was like she found "her thing."  After that, she could pick fights at the drop of a hat simply by bringing up my mom in conversation, bringing up something that happened during a visit from or to my parent's house, making up something entirely false, or at best highly exaggerated, that my mom did or said.  If I wasn't immediately reassuring her that I loved her, I married her, my mom lived 2,000 miles away, etc. I was in for a week of silent treatment.   

This went on pretty regularly for the next 4 years of our marriage. 

[thankful person]

Thank you all for your thoughts and support. I will give a brief recap of where my marriage is at, to give a clearer picture. Not Wendy you have been a valuable supporter throughout all of this. I joined bpd fam in early 2021 when my wife was expecting our second child D4. Bpdw was treating me very badly. She had forbidden me from taking pictures of our first child (D5), and sending them to my Mum. She wanted me to get her blessing for phoning or texting anyone, having a shower, told me she didn’t want me wearing certain clothes. She didn’t want me having friends and I blocked people I liked because of this despite the double standards with her friends she could see when she wanted. She was constantly criticising me as a parent.

There were many extinctions burst behaviours and this even triggered physically abusive behaviour from her. But all in all, I enjoyed the process of reclaiming myself, listening to my own music, wearing my own clothes, taking pictures when I wanted to and FaceTiming my parents. Meanwhile I was learning to validate and use techniques such as SET which helped improve my relationship tremendously. It has continued to be a rollercoaster, but whilst I don’t have friends outside of work, I now work with an incredible community of supportive people. And for the first time after ten years with my wife, I am able to tell people what she is like and how she treats me.

One of the most irritating things remaining about this relationship is the fact that my wife rings me all the time when I’m driving, as in she will ring me within a couple of minutes of leaving the house and for the duration of my half hour journey, then she requests that I text when I’m on lunch and I never ring her but she always rings me, and then for the journey home from work too. She has forbidden me from work social events which is probably something I won’t bother challenging as it’s because she needs help with the kids. She has also forbidden me from being in therapy which I’ve never bothered to challenge, partly because I don’t have the money anyway. But this refusal to let my Mum see the grandchildren is her last desperate attempt to fully control me. She is not willing to negotiate it in any shape or form. For context, we moved to this house in 2022 and it is a six hour drive from my mum’s (she would travel by train). Mum visited in 2022 and stayed in a nearby hotel. She only visited the house for a few hours over about three days and I went out to lunch with her. Then in 2023 again she visited and stayed in the hotel, but the amount of time she was welcome was even less. My wife still complains about my mother having some cornflakes for breakfast at our house, even though I offered her, she says mum should have got breakfast at the hotel. I am disgusted by this as her mother stays and I make her dinner and cups of tea and she does not contribute to the cost even though she knows we’re broke.

So Mum has probably spent 20 hours with the kids in two years. She’s met D5 maybe 7 times, D4 maybe 5 times, S2 once, and baby never.

The children are just as much mine as they are hers. Because we underwent ivf together they are legally half mine. I am on the birth certificates so have the same rights as a biological parent would, even if divorced. I will try and get some legal advice, not sure how but maybe there are online forums as that’s the only thing I seem able to find time for.

My wife is so stubborn that maybe she would divorce over something so petty. Mum has offered some financial support to get her through college, but I said I didn’t want to accept mum’s money with my wife treating her so badly. So now my wife is considering putting S 9mths into childcare so that I can continue to work full time and she blames me and mum for this ending her breast feeding journey even though we both offered to support her. I don’t know if she will go through with this, but it is an example of how stubborn she is even when it’s not serving her.

I am conflicted because I have put a lot of work into this marriage and it has paid off and I’m mostly happy with my life because our children are wonderful and I want to be with them every day and I also love my job. But I just don’t want this bully to win here. I know my Mum would say she doesn’t want me to give up my marriage for her, but I don’t want Mum going to her grave thinking I didn’t care enough to fight for her.

[ForeverDad]

Are both you and your spouse working?  Again pondering on what happens if the marriage ends, if your spouse earns significantly less such as to be a SAHM (stay at home mother) then she would likely claim she does more for the children, she cares more for the children, she is more involved with the children... and so would demand to be the majority time parent.

I don't know how courts in your area would handle such claims but in my divorce two decades ago our court defaulted to ex assigned temp custody and temp majority time.  Over time I gradually reversed that initial lopsided order based on her continuing behavior pattern but that took 8 years.

Based on what many here experience, IF your marriage does end then (1) try to get the best ("least bad") temp order from the very start so the uphill struggle is less difficult to accomplish and (2) ponder what sort of ROFR (right of first refusal) clauses you would include in your court orders.  I went off to work 5 days a week and so I knew she would try to snatch some of my time saying if I wasn't there then she should have my time.  I made sure my ROFR clause stated that school and daycare (substitutes for me) had no impact on assigned parenting time.  And that I decided what happened on my time - such as who I called or visited with my child - just as my ex decided what happened on her time.  Of course, that was what worked for me, you may have have different concerns and solutions.

[Notwendy]

I think exploring the idea of divorce as a "what to do if this were to happen" is good information to know, but it's not happening yet. The issue is about one boundary- kids should see their grandmother and the concern/fear that your wife might divorce you over this.

Staying together in a marriage requires commitment from both people. If your wife is going to divorce you over that, then what does that say about her commitment? The threat/fear of divorce gives her the power to get what she wants.

Pete made a good point here: How much of you are you willing to throw into that proverbial "bottomless pit" in order to keep the pwBPD happy?  Your own family?  Your kids at some point?

From my own experience, I observed my father doing this- but it didn't make my BPD mother happy. It may have averted a reaction from her temporarily but it did not lead to her being happy. It didn't change that she had BPD which affected her thinking and feelings.

While at times, BPD mother threatened divorce- in actuality, she was completely dependent on my father- financially, emotionally. If she were to divorce my father- she'd have to pull this off- and also manage on her own. Although she would say it- she didn't go through with it.

If the fear that your wife will divorce you if you go against her wishes is what is holding you back, at the moment that is a feeling, not a fact. She might do it and also, she might not. Truly- in any relationship each person has the choice to stay or leave. Holding your boundary on this might put the ball in her court to choose. That is scary. But as Pete asked- how much of yourself and your values will you sacrifice to hopefully keep her from doing that?

[GaGrl]

This is what occurred to me...if you were to divorce, you would most likely have 50-50 custody. Your mother would be able to see the children on your time.

So the threat of divorce actually means tour wife would not, in the end, get what she is threatening for.

It's complete BPD illogic, coming only from emotion. It is manipulation.

[CC43]

Hi Thankful,

What you describe sounds like highly controlling behaviors to me.  Not being allowed to take pictures of your beloved children and share them with family.  Being surveilled constantly by phone when you're just trying to do your job and earn a stable living. Forbidding your mom from visiting.  Not being allowed to spend any time with friends.  Being told what to wear, or being screamed at for sighing, coughing or sneezing.  I went through a phase like that with my husband, who I wouldn't say has BPD (his adult daughter clearly does), but who exhibits BPD traits from time to time, particularly when he is stressed out.  Having said that, he remains very jealous of my attention and tends to have meltdowns if my attention is temporarily diverted with social activities, or if he thinks I'm spending "too much" time with family.

Look, I know you love your spouse, as I do mine.  But there comes a point when their controlling behaviors are totally out of control!  And the sad truth is that, even if you bend over backwards to do every single thing your wife demands, she still won't be agreeable!  Yeah you might be able to avert a total meltdown in the moment, but shortly thereafter, she'll surely come up with new demands.  If these demands run counter to your values--e.g. a desire to nurture familial relationships, the need to work for economic security and financial independence, a right to have a voice in important decisions pertaining to your children--you are probably choosing temporary peace over your core values.  And that leads to alienation, from your family and friends, and even from yourself.  It is a very conflicting and depressing situation to be in.  My opinion is that is not sustainable.  It might be doable for a while, but I'd say it's tolerable only if I see the relationship moving in the right direction, such as a gradual abatement in unreasonable demands, fewer meltdowns, or your spouse's agreement to get therapy.

My read is that you cannot possibly make your wife happy by bending to her will, because her demands are not reasonable.  That's BPD.  I will say that in my husband's case, deep down, he knows that he's being unreasonable.  It's just that his emotions take over in the moment, and he lashes out when I don't do exactly what he wants.  But to me, it's worth letting him have his meltdown, because it means that I have a life.  Yes, it comes with a cost (the meltdowns), and yes, I really struggle because my husband does not always support me in my pursuit of a healthy/balanced/full life.  But here's the thing.  I started calling him out on his controlling behaviors.  I waited for a quiet moment, when he was calm and there were no distractions.  And I explained to him, Here's what I think is going on.  I think you are trying to control me because you feel out of control with the all stress in your life.  It's true you're under a lot of stress right now, and we can work together to make things a little easier for you.  But when you act insanely jealous, treat me like a personal slave and put restrictions on me like I'm an eight-year-old, that is really hurtful to me, and I know that's not your real intention.  I don't deserve that and you know it.  I love you, I choose to be with you every day, you do not have to fear that I am not totally committed to you.  If I talk to another person or spend time with my family, that does not mean I love you any less.  I support you, and I want you to support me in having a happy life too.  We both want that, right?  Let's work together on cutting back on some of the stress, so you don't feel the need to lash out and control me in order to reclaim control in your life.  In fact, when you lash out at me, it makes ME really stressed out, and that doesn't help one bit.

I think that having this conversation might have lit a lightbulb in his head, in helping him understand WHY he seemed to be lashing out so much.  I guess the message is that I'm not the one causing his distress, and lashing out at me only makes things worse.  I won't say that this conversation changed everything, because he still tries to exert "too much" control.  But I'd say he feels more remorseful and shows more restraint these days.  I guess the biggest change is with me.  I had the "lightbulb" moment in realizing that he wasn't lashing out at me for anything that I did, and that I wasn't the cause of all his problems!  Rather, he was trying to control me to regain some semblance of control in his life.  Understanding that helped me deal with him and the overall situation better.  In addition, I decided that I wasn't prepared to sacrifice my entire life it order to avoid his meltdowns.  I let him have them and then move on.  I suspect he regrets his childish behavior after the fact, but he mostly pretends like nothing happened.

Just my two cents.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I am conflicted because I have put a lot of work into this marriage and it has paid off and I’m mostly happy with my life because our children are wonderful and I want to be with them every day and I also love my job. But I just don’t want this bully to win here. I know my Mum would say she doesn’t want me to give up my marriage for her, but I don’t want Mum going to her grave thinking I didn’t care enough to fight for her.

You're a good person, thankful, and your wife is not.  She puts her emotional needs, and paranoia - not physical needs, not "real" needs - above all else in your home. 

I remember, years ago, I first reached out online for help b/c my marriage was chaotic and affecting me at work and affecting my sanity.  I eventually also saw a therapist for a few months to gather which was was up.  Anyways, I noted online that my mom had told me if she was causing problems in my marriage, she would back off, go no contact, and leave us alone.  Someone commented that my mom cared more about our marriage than my own wife did.  My mom was willing to put her feelings aside for that, but my wife (now ex-wife) was not.  That hammered home to me the one-sidedness of the relationship, and the inherent selfishness of my wife's behavior.  I was also saying things like "She's mostly a good mom, it's just this one issue."  But it was not just "one issue" it was a pattern of unhinged behavior, paranoid thoughts, threats, etc.  A full-blown propaganda campaign that was directed at me, to keep me from being myself and having a life or personality outside of whatever my wife decided I should have in the moment. 

Whatever you decide to do, keep in mind that this behavior from your wife isn't going to change, because again the problem isn't anything your mom did or said, it's your wife, and her behavioral disorder.  She'll continue to bring up things your mom did - even if your mom is not around - and she'll invent new problems to fight about.  As your kids grow, chances are good that one of them will get branded the "black sheep" of the family for not toeing "mom's line" and you'll get dragged into fighting with your own kids. 

Kids learn from observing their parents, and they trust and respect their parents (at least until their parents give them a reason not to), so remember that they're observing and learning from all this. 

If you decide to stay in the marriage now because you are happy with your life as it is now, that's fine, and it's your decision you have to live you with, so I'm not saying one way or the other what you should do, but don't let a desire to stay in the marriage blind you to the reality of the situation, because your situation will change, and most inevitably, your kids are going to grow up and their needs have to come first, not another adults.

[ForeverDad]

Whatever you decide to do, keep in mind that this behavior from your wife isn't going to change, because again the problem isn't anything your mom did or said, it's your wife, and her behavioral disorder.  She'll continue to bring up things your mom did - even if your mom is not around - and she'll invent new problems to fight about.  As your kids grow, chances are good that one of them will get branded the "black sheep" of the family for not toeing "mom's line"...

The blaming typically doesn't fade, nor even reduce.  The typical pattern is that it expands into the person's other relationships.  Right now it's directed primarily onto your mother.  The question becomes, Who's next?  You?  If you're the breadwinner in the family then that may be why you haven't yet faced the full brunt of her ire and negative perceptions.

That's what happened to me.  First it was occasional spats.  Then rejected friends.  Then my family ostracized.  Then me.  Even divorce didn't "fix" it, though it did help to have the Court's Authority to back me up as parent.  But what can you say to a preschooler who laments, "Mommy told me she would adopt a child who would obey her"?  Or a few times as he grew, "My mommy disowned me"?  Yes, it does happen, it happened to me, more than once.

You're an adult and even so it's hard for you when you experience this discord.  It's even more devastating on children.  I don't see how your children won't be impacted to some extent in future years, the only unknown is how much.  And which ways would be best for you to mitigate some of the impact.

Kids learn from observing their parents, and they trust and respect their parents (at least until their parents give them a reason not to), so remember that they're observing and learning from all this. 

If you decide to stay in the marriage now because you are happy with your life as it is now, that's fine, and it's your decision you have to live you with, so I'm not saying one way or the other what you should do, but don't let a desire to stay in the marriage blind you to the reality of the situation, because your situation will change, and most inevitably, your kids are going to grow up and their needs have to come first, not another adults.

This is about assessing - and over time reassessing* - your priorities.  Some day it may come down to a choice between prioritizing your spouse or prioritizing your children if/when "both" becomes impossible.

* You always have the right to reassess prior decisions based on added insight or concerning changes.

[thankful person]

Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I’m really struggling to get my head round it all. I have joined an online forum that may be able to advise on the legal aspects, but I’m not able to post just yet.

I am working and my wife is not. She is due to start college next week though. I will be dropping my working hours to take care of our baby. However, my mum was going to be helping us out financially. Now my wife agrees that it’s not appropriate as I’ve said you’re treating mum badly I don’t want to accept her money. So my wife is looking at putting the baby in day care. She is devastated to be stopping breast feeding before they’re both ready. But that’s how stubborn she is. Then again, whoever knows what might happen. She is going to need me to help with her studies. That may sound codependent… but… she has no qualifications. Went to special needs school. Diagnosed with moderately severe dyslexia this year. Financially I don’t know how we can survive a split. I officially own two cars the big one she drives and tiny one I drive. Were we to share custody we would need to swap cars each time which I don’t see working out. We would have to sell the house I think and both look for something cheaper.

I can’t believe that I’m exploring all this just because she’s cruel and selfish and stubborn. I don’t like her at all at the moment. But I am honestly ok with staying with her forever if she’d just do this one little thing of letting my mum see the kids occasionally. I don’t think there’s anything else I can try to get her to change her mind. A work friend today remarked that I am “very detached” when talking about my wife and our issues. I was proud of this. I do still get upset when I’m being screamed at, but nothing near what I used to be. If we said goodbye on a bad note I’d be upset and worried all day and desperate to make things right. Now I’m just like, good I don’t have to see her all day. And usually she spontaneously moves on anyway.

I still don’t know what to do. I’m not asking whether my marriage is worth saving. I’m saying, this is a boundary I would like to uphold. But how? What does it look like? What do I actually say and do for the best outcome? Gagrl, I get your point. But it is not just that my wife is forbidding me from letting my mum see the kids. According to her she would be fine if we were divorced and I let my mum see the kids. It’s just that she’s so unhappy with mum and her actions that she refuses to allow anything of the kind such as me taking kids without her, meeting in a public place, mum staying in a hotel etc. apparently mum does not deserve to see the kids because she’s not interested in my wife.

They say to stand up to a bully… how? (Not forgetting mum lives six hours away…)

[Notwendy]

It depends on the bully and the consequences of standing up to the bully. BPD is on a spectrum. If the bully mainly sulks or pouts when faced with boundaries, then standing up to then is reasonably safe to do. If the bully is mentally ill, cruel, and selfish, it may that the only way to have some sense of peace and sanity is to leave the playground.

You have invested a lot in the marriage and you have seen the results of that investment. The bettering board proposes this as a first attempt and perhaps in some milder cases, the situation improves enough to be manageable. As FD said, it is a continuous reassessment.

In a way you are asking how to stand up to a bully without being clobbered too much? If the bully is cruel and selfish, you are going to be clobbered in some way- emotionally at least, and being married to them means frequent clobbering unless you go along with their wishes. The alternative may be to not be with the bully.