Is this a "normal" pattern in uBPD?

[Intotheforest]

I've been on this forum now for a couple of years - and along with therapy, it has been so helpful helping me make sense of my experiences growing up in my family system that caters to my sister with what I suspect is uBPD. She is relatively high functioning - has her own marriage and family and has finally found a career that she seems to be able to maintain. I've spent a lot of time trying to make sense of why she is the way she is and why she treats me/views me in the way that she does and it feels like I've largely worked through that and accepted it. As I've gotten to this place (a place I hope I stay in/continue growing from) I've noticed what seems like an a-ha! pattern that consistently shows up - sometimes in small ways and often in big, life-changing ways. She seems to always find a way to be a victim...then turns into some moralistic hero...the face of justice for whatever wrong she claims to have experienced. Now matter who in her life is actually suffering, she becomes the victim at the center of that story, and she becomes the moralistic hero emerging from victimhood. Both of these tendencies demand attention, both keep her at the center, both allow her to control the narrative. Tough to question a victim. Tough to question a hero. Is this a pattern that seems common to uBPD? Because, if it is, I think I've just connected a lot of dots in my own experiences in this system. What experiences have you all had with this?

[Pook075]

Yup, that's a very common BPD pattern and it comes from disordered thinking and the fear of being rejected.  In her mind, she is the victim...and she feels like if those around her cared about her, they'd be her advocate in dealing with all the tragedies in her life. 

When you reject her narratives, then you're telling her (without actually saying it) that her feelings don't matter.  But we all know that feelings are real, they're valid.  If you get mad at a car for cutting you off in a parking lot and stealing a parking space that you were waiting for, it doesn't matter if you SHOULD BE mad or not...you're just mad.

But what if that car was waiting for the spot before you, only you didn't see them?  You're still just as mad even though you're 100% in the wrong.  Feelings don't discriminate and they're always real.

The same is true with your sister, and her emotions are heightened by disordered thinking since she'll obsess over things in an unhealthy way.  The more she thinks about a bad situation, the more she becomes the victim and the more upset she feels for others not being decent humans and helping her out.  Make sense?

[Intotheforest]

Yes, it does! Thanks for your response. The victim part I get - but the speed with which she moves from being a victim to being the advocate/hero for all those suffering from whatever thing she was the victim of is really crazy. I can't even count the number of wild experiences she has claimed to be the victim of...and then how she emerged into the spotlight to be some kind of hero for the cause. She is never a victim without becoming the hero, And when someone around her is a victim, she "hijacks" the victim role and then comes out as a champion of that cause again. As soon as the cycle finishes up with one thing, theres another thing and the cycle runs all over again. When I look back at all the things that she has claimed to be the victim of,  and the hero she became by the end of it, it reads like a work of fantasy.

[Pook075]

I have two BPDs in my life; a daughter and an ex-wife.

My daughter surrounds herself with broken people (mostly mentally ill as well) because she relates to them more and feels their passion. 

Some of the stuff she's had mental breakdowns for over the years are ridiculous.  For example, friend A is mad at friend B.  They both come to my daughter seeking validation, and she validates them both.  But then friend A confronts friend B, using what my daughter said as proof of a betrayal....and what happens?  Yup, friend A and friend B now see my kid as the problem and they both validate each other in their anger towards my daughter.  Then my kid's entire world falls apart.

This has happened hundreds of times, across all of her friend groups, because they're all mentally ill and process things without a hint of logic...it's all emotional rollercoasters.

I feel sorry for my daughter and honestly, I feel sorry for your sister.  She's not trying to be a drama queen...she's genuinely shocked and outraged and fighting the good fight the best way she knows how.  That's the crux of mental illness, of disordered thinking.

[Intotheforest]

I feel sorry for my sister as well - now. It took a long time to separate her from her illness in her persistent emotional abuse. I've had to step away and look at things more objectively, and, once I was able to do that, I began to garner some empathy for her. In fact, the point at which I could honestly say I had no compassion for her whatsoever after yet another particularly hurtful escapade did I realize that I was starting to lose myself in my reactions to her. That was my turning point - and it's gotten a lot better since then as I've allowed myself to work through all the things I've tried to ignore/dismiss/rationalize/absorb over the years. I'm finally getting to a place where I both recognize cognitively that she is struggling and I should feel empathy for her (something I've always known) and honestly feel that empathy.

The victim role has always made sense to me - but this moralistic hero role was harder for me to recognize and understand as a part of her BPD. Victim seems to fit clearly. Becoming the champion at the center of the fight always felt disconnected from it for me - but I think now I'm seeing it as all the same thing - a way to center herself, her experiences, her feelings, and a way to control the narrative.

[Pook075]

You may have heard of the Karpman Triangle, which describes people as being in one of three categories- the rescuer, the victim, or the persecutor.

When we think emotionally after something happens to us, it's easy to feel like a victim.  Or maybe it happens to someone else and we feel the need to rescue them.  Then there's the bad guy in this story, the persecutor, the one who causes all these problems that lead to the other mindsets.

You've probably felt all three roles in your life- maybe you've felt them this week.  But in a healthy mind, we don't stay in one of these categories long...we adjust and move on.  And by doing that, we get back to living without being stuck.

For someone mentally ill, they can get stuck in one (or multiple) roles within the triangle.  If they're the victim, then they feel depressed and want sympathy.  If they're the rescuer, then they're the only thing standing between a victim and a persecutor...they must fight with everything they have to save the victim.  And in doing so, they unwittingly become the persecutor to deal out judgement however they feel fit.

What's the problem here?  These are emotional feelings that change our reality.  In truth, we're none of these things...not long-term anyway. 

I'm not saying if you're attacked by a thug trying to rob you, you're not a victim.  You certainly are.  But in a poor mental state, it's possible to see everyone as thugs and thieves long-term, and the need to rescue others from a circumstance you once experienced.  That's where your sister is at, continually flipping from one side of the triangle to another. 

She's a victim to disordered thinking and it drives everything she does.

[Intotheforest]

For someone mentally ill, they can get stuck in one (or multiple) roles within the triangle.  If they're the victim, then they feel depressed and want sympathy.  If they're the rescuer, then they're the only thing standing between a victim and a persecutor...they must fight with everything they have to save the victim. 

I think this was the a-ha for me. The stuck in multiple roles of the Karpman triangle. I was understanding that as a relational pattern with others - and I've seen her do this - where she is the victim and I am the perpetrator and my other sister is the rescuer. That was the first place I saw this pattern. It hadn't occurred to me that she might be living within this triangle herself. And it really makes a ton of sense to think about her behavior from that perspective. From victim to hero in a heartbeat so fast it gives me whiplash.

And in doing so, they unwittingly become the persecutor to deal out judgement however they feel fit.

Now thinking about her as embodying the whole Karpman's triangle REALLY makes sense. The piece I hadn't seen until this conversation is that she has to persecute others in order to enact the hero. She moves through this triangle seamlessly - from victim to hero to persecutor (they she would never see herself as embodying this role) in EVERY situation. Now I can't unsee it as I look back over her behavioral patterns. Thank you for pointing this out! I had always seen the Karpman's Triangle as being something that is enacted BETWEEN people - it makes so much more sense and is so much more applicable when I think about HER embodying each role as she moves through the dramas in her life.

[ForeverDad]

In recent posts I've observed that dysfunctional people, as many people with BPD traits are in harmful acting-out ways, choose negativity over positivity, emotional accusations and outbursts over calm and reason, chaotic moods and perceptions over principles and logic.

Yes, they are hurting but also hurtful to others, particularly to those closest to them.  So sad, their damaged lives are too often self-centered with self-oriented perceptions rather than choosing a higher road, an upbuilding one.

[Pook075]

Now thinking about her as embodying the whole Karpman's triangle REALLY makes sense. The piece I hadn't seen until this conversation is that she has to persecute others in order to enact the hero. She moves through this triangle seamlessly - from victim to hero to persecutor (they she would never see herself as embodying this role) in EVERY situation. Now I can't unsee it as I look back over her behavioral patterns. Thank you for pointing this out! I had always seen the Karpman's Triangle as being something that is enacted BETWEEN people - it makes so much more sense and is so much more applicable when I think about HER embodying each role as she moves through the dramas in her life.

Awesome, I'm glad we could help.  It took me a while before that clicked for me as well and once I understood the dynamics at play, everything sort of fell into place.  It always has to be one of the extremes, a definite role to play, in order for the world to make sense for a BPD that's in crisis.

It also sort of tells us how to react in these situations- refuse to be the victim, the rescuer, or the persecutor.  When drama flares up, show compassion for your sister's FEELINGS but do not engage the actual dialogue...that's where you step into the triangle and assume one of her assigned roles.

For instance, your sister is mad at Aunt Edna and doesn't want her at Thanksgiving dinner.  Your initial instinct could be to defend your aunt, or say the exact opposite and agree that Edna's been sort of ridiculous lately.  Instead of taking part in the drama, you could simply say, "That must be frustrating to feel that way, I'll let you guys decide what's best."

That's validating what your sister is feeling...because feelings are real.  But just as quickly you're stepping back as a neutral ally and hoping for a good resolution.