Advice for the Holidays

[cats4justice]

Hello -

My adult children have told me that they will not come for the Christmas holiday if my partner is in the house. She doesn't live with me and has her own home, but expects to spend Christmas as a family. When she did live with us as a family, it was very volatile and the children watched me maneuver some not so great interactions. They also feel that she manipulated them when they were younger and through therapy, have made the decision as adults not to engage with her. My partner knows this and has given them an apology for all the things that happened in the past. It wasn't specific, and there didn't seem to be any action toward those things not happening again. From my own and my children's perspective, there has been quite a bit of drama, arguing, storming out, etc. on every holiday. When they were kids they didn't have a choice. Now that they are adults they do.

My partner would like to get married and I am unwilling partly because my relationship with my children is very important to me. They do not like who I become when with her as I have to navigate all the time. To add to things, I have a family wedding to attend over New Years. She was of course invited, but did not want to stand next to me and watch someone else get married when we are not. She is understandably very upset about all of it and I am feeling very guilty about it all.

Any advice you can give is much appreciated!

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome- there's no easy answers here since you're not getting what you'd prefer.  But honestly, I don't see any choice other than having the holidays with your kids at home.

Why?

If it was one adult kid, then I'd say to make everyone get together.  But if it's multiple kids who have cut her out of their lives completely, that's a very tough pattern to ignore.  You love who you love, I get that, but in my book the kids always come first.

However, if you were to marry...or even get engaged...then I'd be the adult in the room and ask everyone to sit down and talk things out.  Family is not about right or wrong, it's about being an actual family and extending forgiveness.  I don't know what happened in the past or who did what, but you can't have an actual family with all of this in limbo.

I agree with you that in order to take the next step, something has to give.  Your kids have every right to feel how they feel, but hopefully there's a compromise somewhere.

[cats4justice]

I have made the decision for the holiday and I know it is the right one for my children. I have not been able to say yes to marriage, however. We lived together and it seemed to get worse. The blow-ups were more frequent and I had a hard time navigating. She seems to believe that marriage is what she wants and needs and if we were married, it would get better. I find myself believing her words and then what she shows me is often different.

[Notwendy]

As an adult child of a mother with BPD, I stand with your adult childrens' right to have their own boundaries with your partner. It's good that they have boundaries because, this protects them from being treated poorly in their relationships with others.

Just as you have the right to choose to marry this person or not, your kids also have the right to decide the course of their relationship with you if you do proceed with marriage.

While you may feel this puts you in an uncomfortable situation, it's not really them vs your partner or you. What this has done is lead you to look inward at what is going on in your relationship and hold to your own concerns and red flags. Your partner may want marriage but you are hesitant. That's something to pay attention to.

From my own experience, I am glad you chose your kids for the holidays, but looking deeper- this was you choosing your values and your boundaries- your reality about your relationship. When they say they "don't like who you are when you are with her" - this is insightful on their part.

[Notwendy]

In your partner's defense, she isn't wrong either. It makes sense that someone in a long term relationship would want to be married and it would feel hurtful to be in a relationship with someone who didn't want to marry them. Two adults can decide to maintain separate households and not combine their lives in marriage- if this suits both of them. You aren't "wrong" to have it the way it is now. Neither of you are "wrong" to want what you want.

The issue is that she wants marriage and you don't, or you are unsure. Your parner wants to know where this is going. At some point in any relationship the decision- where is this going- is going to come up. It's ideal if both want to be married but if one or both don't- then there's a decision to make. It seems this is where you are at.

As to the kids, they will decide accordingly. In my situation, my parents were married and BPD mother was my biological parent as well. The decision was already a given- they were a pair. Any event that included my father was with both of them.

However, even without family disorder, grown children eventually make decisions to have their own holiday traditions. Some may have to compromise between two sets of parents- one holiday with in laws, one with their parents.

Pook mentioned forgiveness and compromise- and these are a factor, but all adults have choices to consider when planning a holiday. I assume your partner is not your children's mother and so they may not be as inclined to compromise while the two of you are not married. If you do marry her, then they will have their own decisions to make about including the two of you or neither of you.

BPD mother required more attention and patience during family get togethers. I could also tell a difference in my father when she was present (on some other occasions when we were with just him). It wasn't that we didn't like who he was, it was that he was more relaxed when the focus wasn't on my mother as much.

Sometimes we did choose to get together just as our own family. It wasn't that we were excluding anyone or wishing to be hurtful, we wanted our own get together.  All grown children sometimes make these choices even when there isn't disorder.

As I mentioned before, your dilemma isn't as much about the children as it is about you. They don't decide who you love or who you marry or not. You do- and you are on the fence about this. That they have concerns about her is also significant but the choice is about you- and what you want, and your own reasons for being hesitant.

[Pook075]

I have made the decision for the holiday and I know it is the right one for my children. I have not been able to say yes to marriage, however. We lived together and it seemed to get worse. The blow-ups were more frequent and I had a hard time navigating. She seems to believe that marriage is what she wants and needs and if we were married, it would get better. I find myself believing her words and then what she shows me is often different.

For BPDs, there's almost always a belief that if they just had this one thing, their life would be perfect and they wouldn't be mentally ill anymore.  But time after time, they get what they want and there's soon a new thing that they must have for life to make sense.  A new job, a new partner, a new epic vacation, a new car, the list can be endless and none of them fix the actual problem in their minds.

It's just a stopgap- everyone's happy when they get shiny new things.  But that happiness always wears off.

For your BPD partner, marriage won't fix things.  Next it will be a baby, a new home, etc.  It will make things tougher on you though because the dynamic with your kids will change, and your partner's stance will change too since you should always stand by your wife. 

My advice is not to be forced into marriage over a false promise.  Therapy, medication, and a willingness to change is what makes a difference.  Everything else is just a temporary fix.

[Notwendy]

For BPDs, there's almost always a belief that if they just had this one thing, their life would be perfect and they wouldn't be mentally ill anymore.  But time after time, they get what they want and there's soon a new thing that they must have for life to make sense.  A new job, a new partner, a new epic vacation, a new car, the list can be endless and none of them fix the actual problem in their minds.

It's just a stopgap- everyone's happy when they get shiny new things.  But that happiness always wears off.

For your BPD partner, marriage won't fix things.  Next it will be a baby, a new home, etc.  It will make things tougher on you though because the dynamic with your kids will change, and your partner's stance will change too since you should always stand by your wife. 

I wanted to point out a distinction. What a pwBPD may want can appear like a normal "want" or an excessive want. What is different is how they perceive the purpose of that want- as if it is the solution for their own emotional distress. It's projection. Something external isn't a solution for what is internal to them but they may think it is.

There's a desperate emotional "need" on their part to have what they believe is the solution but the solution, whatever it is becomes a temporary fix. Thus the pattern- they have to have the marriage, the new car, the vacation, the whatever is on their mind as a need because they perceive it as the thing that will fix everything.

It's not "wrong" to want to marry someone. The faulty thinking is seeing marriage as the solution to their own emotional distress or you going into marriage for the purpose of easing your partner's distress when you don't really want to marry them. Marriage isn't a solution to someone's problems. It's also not "wrong" to choose to not marry someone. It's not helping or being kind to someone to marry them if you don't want to do that.

Whatever you choose, do it with purpose and thought on your part- as marriage is a major decision.

[Pook075]

I wanted to point out a distinction. What a pwBPD may want can appear like a normal "want" or an excessive want. What is different is how they perceive the purpose of that want- as if it is the solution for their own emotional distress. It's projection. Something external isn't a solution for what is internal to them but they may think it is.

There's a desperate emotional "need" on their part to have what they believe is the solution but the solution, whatever it is becomes a temporary fix. Thus the pattern- they have to have the marriage, the new car, the vacation, the whatever is on their mind as a need because they perceive it as the thing that will fix everything.

It's not "wrong" to want to marry someone. The faulty thinking is seeing marriage as the solution to their own emotional distress or you going into marriage for the purpose of easing your partner's distress when you don't really want to marry them. Marriage isn't a solution to someone's problems. It's also not "wrong" to choose to not marry someone. It's not helping or being kind to someone to marry them if you don't want to do that.

Whatever you choose, do it with purpose and thought on your part- as marriage is a major decision.

I completely agree and that's the point I was trying to convey.  There's nothing wrong with your partner wanting to marry, and her intentions may seem 100% pure.  In her mind, they probably are. 

You also mentioned that living together led to more dysfunction, and a wedding ring will not fix that.  It's very possible, probable even, that she expects that marriage will instantly fix everything (with you, with the kids, etc).  It will not.  Only working through it will make meaningful change.

With that said, the decision is completely yours and there are no wrong choices.  You love who you love and there's no shame in that.  We're just trying to give you a clearer big picture.

[CC43]

Hi there,

With big and blended families, I think it's normal to be flexible when it comes to celebrating the holidays.  I think of holidays as a season more than one specific day.  With that spirit, it becomes easier to orchestrate celebrations with multiple family members given some flexibility in logistics--dinner at one place, presents and coffee cake the next morning at another place, take a kid out to dinner at a preferred restaurant the next night after picking them up at the airport, visiting grandma and taking her out to lunch the next day, etc.  Adult children might need to split visits between parents and/or spouses/significant others.  I think that's wonderful.

With the pwBPD in my life, I think she's not ready to celebrate holidays with extended family members, as she maintains her narrative that they are toxic.  I think the real issue is that she feels inferior, and she doesn't want to be triggered by other people's happiness, nor by parents' attention focused on siblings.  So what we have done in the past is to exchange presents just with her, sometime after the holiday--provided that she's still in the mood and decides to show up.  If not, I'll save the presents for another time.

Yet I think the original poster's quandry reflects three underlying issues:  first, the kids dislike the girlfriend and find her so toxic that they are unwilling to engage with her at all.  Look, I understand that reaction in certain contexts--kids generally don't like to see their "real" mom displaced, and for their dad to dote on someone new.  But given that the kids are adults now, and many years have passed, it's a pretty strong message that not a single child is willing to tolerate her presence for a few hours, even if it would make their dad happy.  That to me indicates that the girlfriend's behavior is egregious.

The second issue I see is the girlfriend's misguided reaction to the upcoming wedding.  I totally understand her desire for marriage--after dating for a long time, she might start insisting on commitment in the form of marriage, and if she doesn't hear a proposal soon, she might think she has been wasting her time.  It's impossible not to dwell on marriage when other people around her are getting married.  But she refuses to attend a family member's wedding because she can't stand it?  Look, part of commitment (and marriage) is supporting one's partner, even through things one doesn't necessarily enjoy.  To me it's a sign that your girlfriend isn't really willing to support you when you need it.  Sure, she'll justify her decision on feeling traumatized, or slighted, or embarrassed, or "triggered," but the reality is she's not there for you when it counts in my opinion.

The third issue I see is your hesitation about marriage.  Apparently you've been seeing your girlfriend (maybe on and off), for a long time now.  Maybe you have what you consider to be a casual relationship, and that's OK--many couples want to keep things casual, provided they are on the same page.  By now your girlfriend has shown you how she reacts to your family, and how she acts when things aren't necessarily about her, but you, your kids or others.  The best indicator of how she will act in the future is  how she's acted in the past.  My opinion is that she will not change one bit once she gets a ring on her finger.  If that gives you pause, then that's good information.  Maybe for you, things are least bad exactly as they are right now.

[CC43]

I find myself believing her words and then what she shows me is often different.

P.S. I missed this sentence when I first replied, and it's a critical one.  Maybe I'm weird, but I focus way, way more on what someone does than what they say.  Not that words are unimportant--they are important.  But for me, when it came to choosing a spouse, I paid much less attention to words.  Sure, an I love you feels great, and an I'm sorry is important.  But to me, action is way more important than intention.  Actions like working hard, taking care of family, and doing things he doesn't necessarily want to do because it's the right thing to do.  Taking care of oneself, one's environment and one's family shows care and responsibility.  Treating others with kindness is key, too.  Showing up when it's important, is important.  For me, actions trump words by about ten to one.

[ForeverDad]

You also mentioned that living together led to more dysfunction, and a wedding ring will not fix that.  It's very possible, probable even, that she expects that marriage will instantly fix everything (with you, with the kids, etc).  It will not.  Only working through it will make meaningful change.

An acronym commonly mentioned her is BPD "FOG" ... Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  Notice that one thing that marriage increases is the sense of commitment, or in BPD worldview, Obligation.

In a more normal relationship marriage does signify greater commitment, and as a consequence, obligation.  But the BPD traits impact the potential positive impacts.  Poor mental health - perceptions in particular - can emphasize the negatives and make matters worse.  Potentially, at least.

[PeteWitsend]

For BPDs, there's almost always a belief that if they just had this one thing, their life would be perfect and they wouldn't be mentally ill anymore.  But time after time, they get what they want and there's soon a new thing that they must have for life to make sense.  A new job, a new partner, a new epic vacation, a new car, the list can be endless and none of them fix the actual problem in their minds.

It's just a stopgap- everyone's happy when they get shiny new things.  But that happiness always wears off.

For your BPD partner, marriage won't fix things.  Next it will be a baby, a new home, etc.  It will make things tougher on you though because the dynamic with your kids will change, and your partner's stance will change too since you should always stand by your wife. 

My advice is not to be forced into marriage over a false promise.  Therapy, medication, and a willingness to change is what makes a difference.  Everything else is just a temporary fix.

It also seems like Non-disordered people manage the issue of marriage in a healthier way: they either accept it's not happening and live with it, or they break up and go their own way to try to find someone who wants marriage, since it's so important to them. 

However, a person with BPD would stay in the relationship, but in the sort of endless "always unhappy about something" dynamic, with a lack of marriage being just the flavor du jour.

The pwBPD's complaints about their romantic partners always beg the same question: "Why are you still here then?"  They never have a good answer.  Their relationships are so bad that they are the cause of ALL the pwBPD's problems and unhappiness, but they just can't seem to end them and move on...